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Now: Trump Jury Deliberating; White House Suggests Deadly Rafah Strike Did Not Cross Biden's Red Line; N. Korea Sends Balloons Carrying Trash, Filth To S. Korea. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired May 29, 2024 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: He looked upset and nervous and worried and full of excuses.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yes, it's not a fun position to be in

BORGER: No.

KEILAR: Even if -- even if you're trying to capitalize on it, I imagined it's definitely not a fun position to be in.

What does this mean -- as the jury is deliberating, what does this mean politically, Mark, with the voters who really matter in this election?

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: So probably the most important question that's going to come out of this trial is, what does happen politically?

I think we have to look at this as a piece of the puzzle. It's not the entire puzzle. It's a piece of the puzzle that we've got to put together over the next couple of months.

Right now, if we look at public polling, there isn't -- the reason a lot of reaction on either side, if you're a Never-Trumper or a Democrat, you hate Donald Trump.

If you love Donald Trump and you're - you're in the MAGA wing of the party, Donald Trump could walk out in the middle of, what, Fifth or Sixth Avenue --

BORGER: Right.

PRESTON: -- and shoot somebody and not go to prison.

I don't think that what happens during this case is necessarily going to have a great effect on the election. Certainly, not now.

But thinking of it as a little piece of the puzzle that gets put down as we build this out, going the next couple of months in November.

BORGER: You know, if -- the only folks I think it might affect are those Independent voters, who are maybe double-haters, fence sitters, whatever you want to call them. And this could be, well, do I want to really vote for somebody who has been convicted of a felony if he gets convicted?

I think that could tip the scale a little bit. But again, I agree with Mark, who knows how much.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Mark, President Biden is expected to make some remarks following the verdict. What do you think is going to say?

PRESTON: You know, having covered Joe Biden, I think, for 25 years now, back when he was in Congress -- and Gloria, you've known him for many years.

He's -- he's very -- I mean, like 10 or 15 years, Gloria, please.

BORGER: Yes.

PRESTON: But, no. But the reality is, but he will be very solemn and very straightforward. I don't think you're going to see him -- look, him coming out and talking about it is politicizing it.

I don't think you're going to have him come out --

BORGER: We'll do that.

PRESTON: -- with any political catch phrases or words or what have you. He'll just talk about the sanctity of the court. We were talking about that a little bit before. But beyond that, I don't think --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: Yes. And I think there might be a statement on paper, but I don't know that he would come out and talk about it. Because of course, every day, Donald Trump is talking about how this is Biden's Justice Department. And I don't think he wants to -- I don't think he wants to play into that.

And so if he gets asked a question about it, I'm sure they'll have an answer for it. But I don't see him going out of his way to use this. Maybe in the debate he could use it against Donald Trump. I would assume so if there's a conviction. But we don't know.

KEILAR: I wonder, does he have to say something about it?

BORGER: No.

KEILAR: And I also want are you know, on the heels of this Robert De Niro business yesterday, which I don't think went off the way maybe it was planned.

You know, how does that affect things?

PRESTON: Let me just say this, right? If this is the playbook of politics that we all have learned over the last 50 years, throw it out the window. Because the conventional wisdom of what we think is going to happen just what is not happening nowadays. And who has really thrown us into turmoil? It has been Donald Trump. He really has kind of showed that our political system is much more complicated than just easily a Democrat or a Republican. It is so much more fractured.

BORGER: Well, I want to know who thought the Robert De Niro thing was a really great idea? Who are you trying to attract with that? Younger voters? I don't think so.

I mean, De Niro has been very outspoken against Donald Trump. We get that. But it looked kind of just something that was jerry rigged on the side of the --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: -- that got attacked by MAGA people and he attack back. And it didn't look, let's just say, very professional.

PRESTON: So here's a question. Let me ask you. Imagine if Robert De Niro was coming out for a mayoral candidate in New York City and did that. That might actually had some kind of effect because of the voters that he's facing.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BORGER: I'm from New York.

PRESTON: I'm saying Manhattan. I'm not saying the country.

BORGER: Yes, I just think it was, you know, it was doomed from the start. I'm sorry.

PRESTON: It was not a good play on the Biden part, Biden campaign part, no doubt.

SANCHEZ: Before we go, I do want to play some sound from the first lady. She was taping with "The View" today and said this. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JILL BIDEN, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Those polls are going to turn. I'm confident of it. Because as time goes on, and as people start to focus a little bit more about what's at stake and start to become educated on the issues and the differences between the two men, I believe that Americans are going to choose good over evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Polls have stayed relatively steady going back to the beginning of the year. Do we anticipate that there's going to be a tide change? BORGER: Well, who knows? You know, a tide change?

SANCHEZ: Yes.

BORGER: Probably not. What she's talking about though is interesting because it's about character. And wives are character witnesses. And we haven't heard a lot from Melania yet.

KEILAR: Stay tuned, stay still, staying tuned.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

[14:35:01]

BORGER: But I think that Jill Biden is a great character witness for Joe Biden, and that's going to be her role. And she's going to talk about character in this campaign.

It may make a comeback. It's kind of -- it hasn't really been around as an issue for a while. And who knows whether the Biden folks are going to try and put that front and center again. She'd be a good person to do it.

PRESTON: Let me just leave you on this. She -- don't ever underestimate Dr. Jill Biden. She is tough as nails. And even though she is relatively quiet, she's incredibly influenced - influential in that White House and on this campaign.

SANCHEZ: Mark Preston, Gloria Borger, great to have your perspectives.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Stay tuned to CNN NEWS CENTRAL because, still ahead, the White House insists a strike that killed dozens of Palestinians in Rafah, including women and children, didn't cross the president's so-called red line. We're speaking with two Biden appointees who recently resigned, and who say it should have.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:44]

KEILAR: Today, protests mounting in major cities around the world in response to Israels deadly strike on a tent camp of displaced Palestinians in Gaza. The Palestinian Ministry of Health says the attack on Sunday killed 45 people and injured 200 others, including women and children.

And now a new CNN analysis of video obtained from the scene reveals the munitions that were used in that deadly strike were American made.

So far, the White House has not changed its policies, suggesting the attack does not cross President Biden's red line of a ground incursion.

And for the first time, video geo-located by CNN shows two IDF tanks moving further west into Rafah.

Joining us now are two former Biden political appointees who recently resigned from the ministration over the Israel-Hamas war, Tariq Habash and Lily Greenberg Call. She is also the first Jewish political appointee to publicly resign.

If you both can just comment on what you've seen from this strike in Rafah, in what effect that you think it is having on people you're talking to within the Biden administration.

Tariq?

TARIQ HABASH, RESIGNED FROM BIDEN ADMIN. OVER ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR: Yes. I mean, I think that it feels like there's a dam breaking. There are so many people who had been working within the system trying to speak through the proper channels about what they are witnessing and what they're seeing and how horrific it is.

And that we are supplying these weapons, we're providing the financing for the ongoing violence against innocent Palestinian civilians.

And I think people are realizing that no matter what they do or say, that their voices are being heard. And I think they're starting to reach the same conclusion, unfortunately, that I made in that Lily made.

KEILAR: So you think internally, top Biden political appointees are getting an earful from people within the administration, or do you think it's a minority?

LILY GREENBERG CALL, RESIGNED FROM BIDEN ADMIN. OVER ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR: I think that they're getting in earful. I think, unfortunately, the culture within some of some of these agencies is -- leans towards silence. Folks are afraid to speak up.

But we know that people across government have been letting their superiors know for months that they disagree with this, that they think it's disastrous policy in so many different ways. And I'm sure what we saw over the weekend is only going to increase that.

KEILAR: What do you think when you hear from the White House that what we've seen in Rafah -- why is this something different to you? Why do you think - obviously, you disagree and think that should have crossed the president's headline.

CALL: I think the people -- tanks rolling into west Rafah, people burning alive in their tents, I don't see how that is not an invasion. I don't see how massacring 45 civilians -- I think there was a strike recently that, in the last 12 hours, that that killed upwards of 20.

That is an invasion. That is violence perpetuated on civilians. And it's U.S. weapons that are used to massacre innocent Palestinian civilians. So Biden is breaking us law right now by continuing to send weapons to

a military that refuses to respect international human rights.

KEILAR: The White House is saying this actually was a more targeted weapon. We have now been able to identify what the weapon was. It is a more targeted bomb.

And the Israelis have raised this possibility that it may have ignited a munition store, Hamas munitions store. I mean, what -- what do you think when you hear that, Tariq?

HABASH: I mean, I think it's just ridiculous. I think it's trying to redefine what the narrative is. And I think the reality is that we've seen massacre aftermath massacre after massacre that has killed over 15,000 Palestinian children. We've seen over 36,000 Palestinians be killed in the last eight months.

I mean, it tears at your heartstrings. It is so, so heartbreaking just to continue to witness this happening. And to know that our government is primarily responsible for providing the continuation of these weapons.

That our government is simply using Israeli talking points to decide where they're going to draw lines or where they're going to redraw lines. It really -- it's inexcusable.

And I think it's our obligation to continue to call out the president, to call out the administration, and to make sure that these weapons do not continue to be used in the name of Americans.

[14:45:00]

KEILAR: They've tried at times, as you know, to distance themselves, while also saying that U.S. support of Israel defending itself is ironclad. There was that halting of the 2,500-pound bombs.

What do you think about that -- this was a 250-pound bomb. What do you think about that distinction when you hear that? And what are you hearing from people inside of the administration?

HABASH: I mean, I'm hearing that people are fed up. I think they're -- they're rightfully just at their ends of what they feel like they had been able to do.

And I and think, unfortunately, 250-pound bombs or 2000-pound pound bombs are still killing dozens of children. Like there -- there is no circumstance where that is as acceptable.

Just because of the bombs or smaller doesn't mean that they aren't hurting just as many people. If you use 50 250-pound bombs that are continuing to kill civilians, they're still killing civilians. That's still against U.S. law. And it's still against international humanitarian laws.

CALL: And a refugee camp, right, that they were told was a safe zone. I mean, that, I think, is something to remember. HABASH: Yes. And these are people who have been forcibly displaced --

CALL: Right.

HABASH: -- from their homes already because there's nowhere else safe to go.

KEILAR: Look, let me ask you, because you -- you are the two political appointees, right? Those are folks who, at the end of an administration, would leave. Appointed by the administration itself. You're not career folks in your agencies that you were in, Education, Interior, respectively.

Some folks in the Biden administration will look and say this actually isn't that many people, who -- who are speaking out inside the administration. What do you -- what do you say to that?

CALL: I'll -- that every single person that I know thinks the same way as us. And whether or not they have felt empowered, as Tariq said, to make that public and to leave because of it, is a different thing.

But I think when the majority of the people on the inside feel that they are not being listened to and the majority of the American people are not being listened to, I think that's a huge problem for the administration.

KEILAR: You -- you brought up in the commercial break that other people are leaving more quietly.

HABASH: Yes.

KEILAR: They're not coming out publicly the way you are.

What types of agencies are we talking about? When you say you -- you know people internally who've just decided I'm getting out. How many people are we talking about? Where are they coming from?

HABASH: I know there are dozens of people who have already left. They're coming from all over. I don't want to list out every single agency. But there are people who have left from the White House. There are people who've left from agencies that are working directly on this, and not working on this at all.

I think people continue to witness what we have seen for months now. And it's hard to stomach just to watch it and feel helpless, but to know that you are I presenting this government and this administration that continues to make excuses for -- and justifications for the killing of Palestinian children.

It's -- it's impossible for people to not feel guilty and to feel like they need to leave when they realize that they have no impact or influence.

KEILAR: Thank you so much, Tariq Habash, Lily Greenberg Call. We appreciate your time today. Thank you for coming on into the studio. Thank you. CALL: Thanks for having us.

KEILAR: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:52:56]

KEILAR: North Korea is battling with South Korea with a new, and, honestly, it's a pretty gross strategy, sending bags of what South Korea Joint Chiefs of Staff are calling floating filth.

South Koreas military says hundreds of bags filled with trash and fertilizer tied to balloons have just come floating over the border.

SANCHEZ: According to North Korean state media, this is retaliation for South Korean activists sending things to the North, including propaganda and K-Pop.

CNN's Will Ripley has the story from Taiwan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This seems to be a new strategy by North Korea, sending so far hundreds of these trash- filled balloons into South Korea.

Local residents have actually been getting warnings to avoid outdoor activities because authorities just don't know exactly what is inside these things. Photos show plastic bags with garbage and filth, as South Korea described it, scraps, paper, dirt, that sort of thing.

North Korea says this is a response to South Korean activists sending prohibited materials.

For a long time now, South Koreans, a lot of NGOs, sometimes former North Korean defectors that are now living in South Korea, they send into the North.

Sometimes using balloons, leaflets, food, medicine, even media, like Korean dramas or K-Pop, music that is forbidden for North Koreans to listen to, programs that are forbidden for North Koreans to watch.

But they send them from South Korea anyway, as part of this propaganda push to try to convince the North that there is a better way of life in the South.

This has been going on for a long time. North Korea has long accused the South of psychological warfare. And has promised retaliation.

So now, by sending these hundreds of trash-filled balloons, they want South Korean authorities to experience the headache of cleaning up and locating all of this, just like they say, they've been dealing with for a long time.

But for North Koreans who receive content, particularly from South Korea, the penalties can be extremely severe.

Remember, we showed you rare footage of those North Korean teenagers apparently sentenced to hard labor for viewing and distributing South Korean content.

[14:55:00]

There was a time, 2017, 2018, when there were some brief periods of cultural exchange between the North and South, part of that diplomatic detente. And at that time, North Koreans were allowed to legally get a glimpse of South Korean culture.

But those days seem like a distant memory now with information controls arguably tighter than ever inside North Korea.

And now, these trash balloons being sent to the South, part of this tit-for-tat, back-and-forth, and just yet another sign of the escalating tensions on the Korean Peninsula.

Will Ripley, CNN, Taipei.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Our thanks to Will Ripley for that report.

I definitely would rather receive K-Pop, even though I'm not a huge fan, than just like random fertilizer and trash.

KEILAR: Completely.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

Still ahead, the jury in Donald Trump's hush money trial has been deliberating for more than three hours, working through lunch, to decide his legal fate. And a verdict could come as soon as today. We're going to head back to the courthouse in just moments on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)