Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Juror: Jury Initially Deadlocked, But "No Politics Came Into Play"; Hunter Biden Found Guilty On All Counts In Gun Case. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired June 11, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:52]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: We begin with our breaking news, a federal jury finding Hunter Biden guilty on three felony gun charges. The President's only surviving son walking out of the courtroom earlier today, a convicted felon. Moments ago, President Biden spoke at a previously scheduled gun safety event in Washington, talking about his passion for gun safety laws, but did not once mention his son's conviction.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: We've now learned that President Biden will travel to Delaware after the event to be with his son. Some of the jurors who sat on Hunter Biden's trial are now coming forward. They've told CNN in full detail what it was like during deliberations, ultimately choosing to convict the child of a sitting president for the first time in American history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUROR 10, JUROR IN HUNTER BIDEN CASE: It was very sad. And when Hallie testified, I mean, that was for me - that was a very sad time because I did not know that Hallie also got addicted to crack. So I really felt ...

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And it sounds ...

JUROR 10: Sorry for that.

RAJU: Yes, it sounds like from what you're saying is that you were in the belief that he was guilty all along. You were not on the - in the camp initially who did not think he was. You thought he should be acquitted. You thought he was guilty. And correct me if I'm wrong, but what convinced you as you were assessing the evidence that he was guilty?

JUROR: The majority because the majority of the questions was, was he - when he filled out that form at the gun shop, okay, and he listed no, he was not it. It was not an addict, when it said, are you a unlawful addiction to drugs or are you addicted to drugs.

When I first - read the first one, we - and hearing all the evidence, I believe that he was and he did knowingly buy the gun, knowing that he was a drug addict.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I want to get your take on Naomi Biden's testimony. What is your assessment of the defense's decision to put her on the stand? How did that impact your decision?

JUROR 10: It did not impact our decision that much, I felt bad that they put Naomi on trial - on as witness. I think that was probably a strategy that should not have been done. No daughter should ever have to testify or - against her dad. So I think (INAUDIBLE) ...

REID: Do you think that Hunter Biden should go to jail after this verdict?

JUROR 10: Well, I was talking earlier and I - deliberating, I was - we were not thinking of the sentencing and not - I really don't think that Hunter belongs in jail. If you look at this case and you realize that when Hallie dumped that - the gun in the trash can and it was retrieved and Hunter Biden did not want to press charges because he was the victim of a theft - of a firearm. He did not want to press any charges against Hallie.

[15:05:02]

And another thing that I also thought was they asked him, did you want your gun back? And he said, no, he did not want the gun back. When he said he did not want that gun back and that gun sat in evidence for almost five years. I think that may have been what led to his downfall. Had he taken possession of that gun, I don't know if it - we would even have a trial because, you know, he may have sold the gun, got rid of the gun, sold it back to a gun shop or whatever. And, you know, it wasn't like it was sitting in evidence I just think that - I believe that that means it was sitting in evidence and somebody got a hold of it and say, hey, let's check this out a little bit more and see exactly how he obtained that gun.

REID: What do you think of this case overall? I mean, do you think that this was a legitimate use of taxpayer resources to bring this case?

JUROR 10: Yes, I do. I do believe it. Once they found out that, you know, Hunter bought a gun and did he buy it legally, was he an addict, was he addicted to crack when he purchased it and that was like the biggest factor in this whole case and that's what the whole case was about. And so all 12 jurors did agree that, yes, he knowingly bought a gun when he was an addict or he was addicted to drugs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: CNN's Paula Reid is live outside of the federal courthouse in Delaware. It's fascinating, Paula, to hear and those questions that you had for juror number 10, to hear what happened behind closed doors, to hear the jurors thinking on this. It drives Elliot Williams, who's sitting next to me, completely nuts because it is something that he will talk about how this could actually imperil the prosecution's case if it comes to an appeal. But tell us what more jurors are saying after this conviction.

REID: Yes, that's right. The legalistic instincts are in conflict with journalistic instincts. I go through this all today - all day long, so I understand how he has concerns. But look, it's so important for people to hear exactly how they came to this historic decision, because this case has come under a lot of criticism.

And while that juror said that he believes that, yes, this was a legitimate pursuit. A different juror told our colleague, Hannah Rabinowitz, that they did not believe that this was a good use of taxpayer resources. And we learned from the jurors that initially when they did their first poll of the jurors yesterday, as they began deliberations, they were split 6-6. And then this morning when they came back, it was actually 11-1 in favor of conviction. And then they focused on that one juror who had concerns about whether prosecutors had proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Hunter Biden knowingly lied on this ATF orb. And they focused on that juror and they were able to build consensus.

But learning about this process, yes, this will likely be used by defense attorneys on appeal. But this is fascinating because we were also able to ask that juror if politics weighed on any of these jurors while they made their deliberations, made their decision. And here that juror said, no, President Joe Biden's name only came up once during deliberations.

Now, it's interesting that that juror also does not think that Hunter Biden should go to jail as a result of this. Again, I don't think that that is going to be considered too weighty a factor when his sentence is calculated. But it's notable because we've heard even high profile Republicans today, like Representative Matt Gaetz, criticizing this case.

Earlier in the trial, Sen. Lindsey Graham, a staunch Trump opponent, said, yes, look, I think that the Los Angeles tax case, that is something that should be pursued. But he said here, this gun case, no good can come from this. So it is really interesting to hear from the people who had to ultimately make the decision how they came to this decision. I think it is a really important thing for the American people to understand. But I completely agree with Elliot. This will likely be used by Hunter's lawyers on appeal.

SANCHEZ: And we will discuss that with Elliot Williams in just a moment. Paula Reid from the courthouse in Wilmington. Thank you so much.

Let's go to the White House, though, because President Biden will soon head to Wilmington, Delaware, after his son's conviction. CNN's Kevin Liptak joins us now live.

Kevin, the President reiterating support for his son.

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes. And we did see the President speaking at this gun violence event just a few moments ago. He really belied none of the anguish that we know that he's been feeling behind the scenes as this case has proceeded. But he did make one interesting mention, I thought, of his son, Beau, talking about how he had died trying to relate with parents who had experienced the loss of their own children from gun violence.

[15:10:04]

That really was kind of the closest he came in that speech to talking about some of the circumstances against which this trial was unfolding, because we know that Hunter Biden's addiction, which was really at the center of this case, really began when his brother, Beau, died in 2015.

So you heard in the President's voice when he said it's hard. You know, there is a reflection there of the circumstances that he was talking in. Now, we did hear the President in a written statement, which has been his preferred mode of communication about this case, reiterating support for his son.

The President said, "As I said last week, I am the President, but I'm also a Dad. Jill and I love our son, and we are so proud of the man he is today. So many families who have had loved ones battle addiction understand the feeling of pride seeing someone you love come out on the other side and be so strong and resilient in recovery."

The President went on to say, "As I also said last week, I will accept the outcome of this case and I will continue to respect the judicial process as Hunter considers an appeal, Jill and I will always be there for Hunter and the rest of our family with love and support." And the President concludes: "Nothing will ever change that."

So you see the President really viewing this through the lens of a father, not necessarily as a president. And two important things in the statement, they talk about how so many Americans have suffered similar experiences with addiction, trying to connect their own experience with that trauma that so many other families have suffered, but also saying very explicitly, I will accept the outcome of this case, trying to make a very clear distinction between what's happening in Wilmington today and former President Trump's own criminal convictions in New York. Of course, Trump has called the system rigged.

President Biden wanting to make very clear that he views this as a legitimate jury outcome. He did speak a little bit to that last week in an interview. Listen to what he said back then.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID MUIR, ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: Let me ask you, will you accept the jury's outcome, their verdict, no matter what it is?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.

MUIR: And have you ruled out a pardon for your son?

BIDEN: Yes.

MUIR: You have. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: So two very terse yeses in that answer. All reflecting, I think, the painful saga that this verdict now punctuates, guys.

KEILAR: All right. Kevin, thank you so much. We do appreciate that. And let's bring in our legal experts now. We have Elliot Williams, who's a CNN Legal Analyst and former federal prosecutor, and Duncan Levin, who is a former federal prosecutor and criminal defense attorney.

Duncan, to you, questions right now that this conviction is raising for you and what we should expect ahead with sentencing and also the other case that Hunter Biden is facing.

DUNCAN LEVIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, I mean, it's highly unlikely that he's going to see jail time off of this case. And the reason for that largely is the genesis of this case. This was a case that and frankly is very sad, it's a case about addiction. And while it's a legally correct verdict, I think even this judge who has done a lot to hobble the defense here will see this as a human tragedy.

I mean, this is a case that started really because of a - the finding of a gun dumps in - tossed into a dumpster by his then-girlfriend, Hallie Biden, who's his sister in law. He is the one who took steps to have it retrieved. And that's what started this case in the first place. This is a case that was supposed to end in a plea agreement with pretrial diversion. He was not supposed to see any jail time at all on it. And that plea fell apart in large measure because the parties wanted Judge Noreika to be in charge of deciding whether he was in compliance with that plea agreement or not.

So it fell apart and went to trial. But I don't think there's any reason to believe that there should be a trial penalty here, that because he went to trial, which really wasn't his choice, that he should wind up with any significant jail time as a result of it going to trial rather than it going through pretrial diversion, which would have resulted in absolutely no jail time. He's still looking at significant jail time in September where he's expected to be charged, tried in California on three felony counts of tax evasion and failure to file. That is a case that is actually giving him far more grave legal consequences than this one.

SANCHEZ: Elliot, you agree?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I do. Certainly to the point that the California case brings far more grave legal consequences. Now, it's hard to know exactly how the sentencing guideline range for this charge will be calculated. We've been going back, as you know, we've been sitting here going back and forth with some of my colleagues, other attorneys and former prosecutors as to whether it would be at the zero to six month range, which would be at the bottom of the federal sentencing guideline range or probably more likely at the 15 to 21 month range, depending on which enhancements or whatever else goes into the sentence.

But needless to say, it's not a very long sentence.

[15:15:00]

This whole idea that he might get 25 years in prison as the statute says that's not going to happen. But certainly the far greater case and the bigger peril for Hunter Biden is that California trial.

SANCHEZ: Duncan, to you, we heard a moment ago from some of the jurors and they sort of reflected on their own internal deliberation and what the conversation was like in the room. I'm wondering what you took away from what they shared with CNN.

LEVIN: Well, I mean, obviously, they took it very seriously. It sounded to me like politics did not seep into this, which, you know, on the one hand is something that you would expect because they took it seriously. But also, Delaware is Biden central. You know, the defendant's father is = has a photograph hanging on the - in the lobby of the courthouse where the jurors enter every day.

Everybody knows who they are. The first lady of the United States is sitting in attendance at the trial. For them to ignore it is something that is commendable. The, you know, the case itself was very strong. It was a legally strong and sound case that the prosecutors put forth. You can obviously question the politics of how it got to go to trial in the first place, but they took it seriously. They looked at the evidence.

And, you know, I think the fact that politics did not play into their deliberation says a lot about how they looked at the evidence and took it seriously.

KEILAR: Yes. One of the jurors referred to the first lady as Jill. So these Delawareans are on a first name basis with the first couple and their family members. Elliot, what of what you heard from the jurors do you think might create issues for the prosecution as they're looking towards this appeals process?

WILLIAMS: I don't think anything creates a clear issue. I think the defense attorney is going to take the transcript of our interview here and every word that these jurors say publicly and pick it apart for anything that says that they deviated from considering the facts and the law of the case. And so all these statements about we didn't think he should go to jail, we did not think this was a sound use of prosecutorial resources may not imperil the conviction, but it's still bringing other things into the jury room.

Now, they're human beings and are entitled to their views. And of course, people would go in and say these things amongst each other and so on. Now, if you're a defense attorney making an appeal, you're making a case that these jurors deviated from discussing the facts and the law. And it's certainly that it will be the headlining point - maybe not the headlining point, but it'll be a big point in the briefs they send up to the appeals court without question.

KEILAR: Really interesting. Elliot, thank you so much. Duncan Levin, great to have you. Thank you. LEVIN: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course. So when we come back more on the fallout from Hunter Biden's conviction, stay with CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:06]

Welcome back to our breaking news coverage, a federal jury finding Hunter Biden guilty on three felony gun charges just hours before his father, President Biden, gave a previously scheduled speech at a gun safety event. The conviction marks the first time a president's immediate family member has been found guilty of a crime during their term in office.

KEILAR: Yes, it's quite a landmark. And let's go now to Capitol Hill, where lawmakers are now reacting to the Hunter Biden verdict. CNN's Lauren Fox is with us.

What are you hearing there, Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Yes. So we are getting new reaction in the hours after this verdict was reached. And we have now heard from House Speaker Mike Johnson. Our colleague, Manu Raju, caught up with the Speaker just a short time ago and here is what he said about this verdict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: But, Mr. Speaker, you've been saying two-tier system of justice for some time. Here's the President's son being convicted on three counts. Doesn't that undercut your claims?

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): It doesn't. Every case is different. And clearly the evidence is overwhelming here. I don't think that's the case in the Trump trials. And all the charges that have been brought against him have been obviously brought for political purposes. Hunter Biden is a separate instance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And that is not the only reaction we are hearing. We are also getting some interesting comments from some Republicans who feel like the gun case itself was something that was a tricky thing for Hunter to be convicted on. Here was one of those Republicans, Thomas Massie, who said, quote, "Hunter might deserve to be in jail for something, but purchasing a gun is not it. There are millions of marijuana users who own guns in this country, and none of them should be in jail for purchasing or possessing a firearm against current laws.

Matt Gaetz also tweeting: "The Hunter Biden gun conviction is kind of dumb to be honest." Meanwhile, Democrats are arguing that the way that Republicans are talking about this conviction and the conviction of Donald Trump is very different than the way the Democrats have handled it. Here is Jamie Raskin. He texted me just a short time ago. He also said a similar thing during the House Rules Committee.

He said, quote, "The contrast in partisan response to the Trump and Hunter Biden verdicts is striking and revealing. I have not heard a single Democrat call the Hunter Biden verdict rigged, a kangaroo court or a fraud, much less use it to attack our entire system of justice." Boris, Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. Larry Sabato, thank you so much. Joining us now for some political perspective.

We have CNN Senior Political Analyst, Gloria Borger and Larry Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia.

And Larry, I know you just said on CNN International that you think the political effect of this conviction is zero. Tell us why.

[15:25:01]

LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Because most people have enough sense to realize that Hunter Biden is 54 years old. He's been an adult for decades. His parents are not responsible for his behavior and he may have to pay the price for his behavior. But by no means should that affect President Biden in his reelection.

You know, I have heard so many people on quite a number of channels today comparing and making equivalent, the 34 felony convictions that Donald Trump had to the three felony convictions that Hunter Biden had. Hunter Biden is not running for president. The other guy is the nominee of the Republican Party. So it is just ridiculous to have some kind of equivalency in the coverage or in the effect it has on voters. And as I said, most people have enough sense to judge the candidates on the basis of what they've done, not what their children have done.

SANCHEZ: Gloria, I'm curious to hear how you think this not only affects the electorate, but Joe Biden personally, the fact that his son is now a convicted felon.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, I do think it will affect Joe Biden personally more than it's going to affect the electorate. I think Biden is very close to Hunter Biden. This has been an issue they've been dealing with in the aftermath of Beau's death, his other son, in 2015. The family has tried interventions. It has been difficult.

And Joe Biden may be president of the United States, as he says, but he's also a father who's tried to intervene to save his son's life. And this was a matter of life and death. As you saw, he purchased a gun to do what with it? We don't know.

So I think it will affect Joe Biden much more personally. In terms of the campaign, you know, I agree with Larry. I don't think it has much impact. The only impact it has is pointing out the hypocrisy of Republicans talking about a two tier, you know, justice system being unfair. And, you know, here you have Hunter Biden being prosecuted, just like the president of the United States was prosecuted, completely different kinds of cases. But a conviction was a conviction and he was taken to court.

You know, you might argue this case wouldn't have risen to the level of having been brought before a jury if his name weren't Hunter Biden. But let's not even go there. Let's just say that the Republican argument that, you know, the Democrats are treated better than the President was, is ridiculous. I mean, you have a senator on trial now, Bob Menendez. So, you know, that argument flies right out the window.

SANCHEZ: Democratic congressman, Henry Cuellar, of Texas as well.

BORGER: Exactly.

SANCHEZ: Larry, to that Republican response, we just heard from Lauren Fox a moment ago and she gave us sort of the different reactions that are coming from Capitol Hill. Matt Gaetz calling it kind of dumb. Thomas Massie making an argument about the Second Amendment and the millions of Americans that own guns and also use marijuana and there being some hypocrisy there. What do you make of these varied reactions from Republicans to this verdict?

SABATO: Well, it is interesting because these days they're almost unanimous and basically repeat whatever Donald Trump puts on Truth Social. So in a way, it's refreshing to see that there are at least a few Republicans who have another point of view about this. I don't know if I agree with their argument or not, but for the Speaker to say what he did is just laughable. It really is.

And I think Gloria was absolutely correct in her comments and I think people are going to see very quickly that as little as I respect polling, you will see almost no effect in the polling. Donald Trump didn't have much of an effect, but I think a consensus has formed that maybe a point or two has been subtracted from its total in certain key swing states and maybe nationally.

So it did have some effect on him, but maybe that's because he's running for president and he was found guilty of 34 felonies.

KEILAR: Yes, and it's interesting. I mean, just looking at Trump deciding how if he's going to respond on this, Gloria, it's also interesting that the campaign put out an initial statement that ended with wishing Hunter well. We wish him well in his recovery in legal affairs. They then sent out an updated statement striking the well wishes to Hunter.

BORGER: Well, who do you think did that? Who do you think read that and said, no, I don't want to wish him well. I - do you think it might have been the person who's running for president of the United States? Look, I wouldn't put anything past Donald Trump in this particular case. And we have a debate coming up and I wouldn't be surprised if he raises it against Joe Biden, because he likes to deliver punches and he knows that something like this will hurt.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)