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Biden & Trump Making Final Preparations For CNN Debate; Special Counsel Argues For Gag Order In Docs Case; Israeli Defense Minister Gallant Meets Blinken At State Department. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 24, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Just three days and counting until that big primetime presidential debate right here on CNN. Tough and nasty or nice and calm, Donald Trump testing out his debate strategies and asking supporters how he should comport himself Thursday night, while Joe Biden spends the week behind closed doors with top advisors preparing for the biggest night of the campaign so far.

Meantime, lawyers for Donald Trump are back in court in Florida for not one, but two hearings in his classified documents case, and this hour, a hearing on Special Counsel Jack Smith's motion to impose a gag order on the former president.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And today marks two years since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, which guaranteed women the right to an abortion. We'll talk about where abortion access stands in America since that monumental decision.

We're following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Hello, I'm Brianna Keilar alongside Boris Sanchez. And we do begin this hour with the most anticipated moment of the 2024 presidential election so far, and that is that here in three days, President Biden and former President Trump are going to face each other for their first debate in nearly four years right here on CNN. The stakes couldn't be higher as both candidates prepare to make their pitches to voters.

Right now, Biden is hunkered down at Camp David doing some intense debate prep. We're learning that he's getting ready for all possibilities, including even the chance that we could see a very different, more restrained Donald Trump on the debate stage come Thursday.

SANCHEZ: Meantime, the former president has a different strategy. He's been hitting the campaign trail, also working with close advisors and allies on his policy positions.

Joining us now more - with more on both - how both sides are preparing, CNN's Kayla Tausche is live for us at the White House. We've also got CNN's Steve Contorno with us.

Steve, what are you hearing about Donald Trump's week ahead?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Well, he's going to a fundraiser tonight in Louisiana, and then he's going to spend the rest of the week at Mar-a-Lago, where he will be meeting with advisors and prepping for this debate. However, he's not going to be holding mock debate sessions like Joe Biden. And I was with him this weekend in Philadelphia, and it's very clear that he enjoys playing up this fact that there's a very clear juxtaposition between how he's preparing and Joe Biden's more studious approach.

But there's also been a very interesting sort of resetting of expectations going into this debate. You know, for months, they have been telling their supporters and swing voters that Joe Biden isn't up for the task anymore, that he is not physically and mentally up for the job.

Well, more recently, he has sort of been changing his tune. He said that Joe Biden is, quote, "a worthy debater." At the debate last weekend, he made a bunch of - or excuse me, at his rally last weekend, he made a bunch of suggestions that Joe Biden might be taking some sort of performance enhancers, obviously a baseless accusation there.

But it does suggest that they are, you know, that doesn't necessarily project strength or confidence going into this debate, that they have sort of raised these questions. Yet before, he was saying he'll debate Joe Biden anytime, anyplace, anywhere. Now there's all these sort of like caveats about this week.

KEILAR: Yes, he maybe has some fear about it. We'll have to see.

So let's go to Kayla Tausche at the White House.

Kayla, tell us a little bit more about what Biden plans to focus on.

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know from the communications director of the campaign, Michael Tyler, in a memo that he sent out that there are three sort of tentpole topics that President Biden expects to focus on. Number one, democratic values and the danger to democracy that he believes Donald Trump poses. Expect him to reference comments that Trump made where he would be a dictator on day one.

Second, Trump's economic plan with an expectation that President Biden is going to talk about how Trump's plan would serve the wealthy and corporations, whereas his plan would do otherwise.

And then finally, reproductive rights, with the administration and the campaign blanketing the airwaves this week, marking the second anniversary of the reversal of Roe v. Wade. Earlier today, Vice President Kamala Harris gave a speech where she appeared to be workshopping some newer and sharper language.

[15:05:00] She said that if she were prosecuting the case, she would easily find Donald Trump guilty of being the one who revoked those rights from women and appeared to play into some of the parlor game around Trump's vice president search, saying that she knows that Trump has selected his vice president, but it doesn't matter who it is. In Harris' words, she said any one of them would be known to support abortion bans at the federal and state level and said that that outcome needs to be stopped, guys.

SANCHEZ: So, Steve, what are some of Trump's biggest vulnerabilities going into Thursday, and how is his campaign sort of navigating potential concerns?

CONTORNO: Well, they certainly expect to be on defense on questions about abortion, his criminal convictions, what happened on January 6th. Those are areas where, obviously, Joe Biden is going to go on offense.

But there's also this question of which Trump shows up, and that's something that Trump's team has been very aware of and Trump himself has been as well. Listen to what he asked his own audience at a rally on Saturday night.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: How should I handle him? Should I be tough and nasty? Or should I be - she say, no. Should I be tough and nasty and just say you're the worst president in history or should I be nice and calm and let him speak?

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CONTORNO: Now, I'll note that there was one person who yelled out, be presidential. One person, though, so ...

KEILAR: One person.

CONTORNO: Yes.

KEILAR: That's a good point.

All right, so, Kayla, neither candidate has debated since they last met in 2020, right? It's been a minute here. What lessons can be gleaned from the previous meetups that we've seen?

TAUSCHE: Well, first of all, if anyone knows the different variations that Trump could take on onstage, it's Joe Biden, because he debated Trump in two different scenarios in 2020, where Trump had a Jekyll and Hyde type of appearance. In the first, which we now know that he had been diagnosed with COVID, he was combative. He interrupted the President. At one point leading President Biden, who was then the candidate, to tell him to shut up.

And voters, by and large, left that debate with not feeling favorable about either candidate. Then, fast forward a little over a month later, there were muted mics in that situation, and there was a much more well-mannered, mild-mannered President Trump at that time. And so Biden had experience with both of those options and his advisors have said that they're prepared for both of those outcomes, if that were to happen.

But CNN knows from its reporting and covering all of these debates going back for decades that first debates for sitting presidents can often trip them up. Sometimes they feel too comfortable in the job they've been living in it for so long. They're steeped in the content, and the challenge here for Biden will be to not let history repeat itself in that way.

SANCHEZ: Kayla Tausche, Steve Contorno, thank you both so much.

Be ready for anything as you join CNN Thursday night - former President Biden - rather President Biden, former President Trump, meeting for their first debate of the 2024 election. Jake Tapper, Dana Bash moderating. It's all live from Atlanta. Again, Thursday, beginning at 9 PM Eastern.

And as former President Trump attends a New Orleans fundraiser later today, his attorneys are in federal court in Florida for yet another hearing in his classified documents case.

KEILAR: They're arguing against the Special Counsel's request for a limited gag order, which would bar the former president from comments, prosecutors say endanger the safety of law enforcement who are involved in the case. CNN's Evan Perez is outside court in Fort Pierce, Florida. And Evan, tell us about how this is going so far.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, that hearing is just now getting underway. And what prosecutors are asking for is for the judge to order a gag order on the former president and have it be part of his release conditions, essentially putting the probation office in - getting the probation office involved in all of this.

And what they're concerned about is, according to their filings, is that they say that the former president's rhetoric, that some of his claims about the 2022 search of Mar-a-Lago that some of those comments are endangering federal agents, some of them - some of whom will be witnesses in this case if it ever goes to trial, and that it's endangering federal officials in general.

They're pointing out that there was an attempt by an armed person - armed man who said he was inspired by the former president to attack an FBI office shortly after the Mar-a-Lago search. And more recently, another person who claimed to be a supporter of the former president who threatened to slaughter federal agents involved in another case.

And one of the things they pointed out in a filing just over the weekend, they turned the former president's words against him. They said that he often boasts about the impact that his words have on his followers, but they say just as predictably, he will avoid any responsibility for anything that may happen as a result of what they do.

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KEILAR: Yes, important data point there. Evan, thank you for that report.

Let's talk a little bit more now with former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman.

So Harry, prosecutors in this gag order hearing are pointing to Trump's false claims that he was at grave risk from federal agents searching Mar-a-Lago two years ago. That's something that really animated his base. But they're saying that this could lead to threats and harassment against those in law enforcement who were involved. Judges in other cases, they've said the gag orders make sense for this defendant, so why is this a question here?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER US ATTORNEY: Well, first, as you say, Trump's statements were barely escaped death and he wasn't even in Mar-a-Lago at the time and basically that Joe Biden was coming for him. And the real worry that caused the attorney general to speak out as you quoted to execute a search warrant and people think, you know, you're coming in with deadly force and that's when violence can happen.

What's different here? In a word, nothing. The - what they've asked for is what's been approved again and again. That is any statements that Trump makes that could have specific, imminent and foreseeable harm to an agent involved in the case. That language is not an accident. It's been approved repeatedly.

And there's an interesting dynamic here because we've been watching for months to see whether Judge Cannon might make a ruling that would expose her to oversight on the 11th Circuit and maybe even a recusal because the Special Counsel is saying this is exigent and can already point to two attacks, verbal attacks on FBI agents.

If she doesn't rule as has been her want, it's possible that this motion gives Jack Smith an opportunity to say, I want to appeal her because she hasn't ruled. I want to go to the 11th Circuit and say she's got to do something here. And that would give the occasion that he hasn't had yet to try to recuse her.

KEILAR: Trump's attorneys argue that the way Smith - the way the special counsel is being funded, that it's in violation of the appropriations clause of the U.S. Constitution because it's not part of DOJ's budget. What's your response to that?

LITMAN: It's - first, it's totally been already defeated before. It makes your head spin. They've got over a billion dollars they could spend on this. And what they're really saying is it means the original appointment of Smith was invalid. If that - if she were to rule that, by the way, that would be an appeal and recusal in a skinny minute because it would basically undo the entire Special Counsel regime.

So it's a way of trying to get at just what's happening in this case, but its consequences would be huge. I just can't see it flying at all.

KEILAR: You have a really interesting background and that you worked for the DOJ under Attorney General Janet Reno just before she put in place the current regulations for appointing a special counsel. It was kind of a reaction to that, I guess I could call it mission creep of the Ken Starr investigation of Clinton. Could this hearing, potentially, you know, whatever the outcome is, affect how special counsels are appointed?

LITMAN: You know, 100 percent, if Judge Cannon rules that way, it really is, even though they tried a cabinet, a frontal attack on special counsels, except I think were she to make that kind of ruling that Trump would like, it would be reversed pretty quickly above her and she would be out of the case.

So don't - it's been so well decided by so many courts, I don't see any real prospect of that, but in her hands, temporarily, you could have a kind of catastrophic motion and ruling.

KEILAR: Could this decision undermine, whatever it is, undermine Jack Smith's other case against Trump, which is of course the D.C. election subversion case?

LITMAN: You bet. So if she were to hold this, it would equally apply to that other case where he's being paid in the same way, has the same authority. But again, there, as in every court around the country, the challenge has already been rebuffed. So if she did it, it would have - be far reaching, except I think it would be very temporary because I think that Court of Appeals would quite quickly say, no, that's not the law. And by the way, maybe you shouldn't be on this case any longer.

KEILAR: And by the way - I wonder if that's - I like how you put it. I like how you put it, Harry, it's subtle, but it wouldn't be so subtle if they did it. Harry Litman, great to have you. Thank you so much.

LITMAN: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: And still ahead, the Israeli defense minister at the State Department, greeted by shouts of protesters outside the building. What we're learning about his meeting with Secretary of State Blinken this afternoon, as an Israeli source tells CNN, they're still committed to the ceasefire proposal with Hamas.

SANCHEZ: Plus some major snags in space. NASA calling off a spacewalk at the last minute because of a leaky space suit.

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And two other astronauts are told that their trip back home that was supposed to happen last week is delayed until July.

And emergency weather, a flooding emergency in Iowa. Plus, record setting heat. When the worst of it could be over?

Those stories and much more still to come.

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KEILAR: New today, a source tells CNN that Israel is insisting to Hamas, it is still committed to the latest ceasefire proposal on the table. Earlier today, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu walked back comments that he made during a TV interview where he appeared to dismiss the U.S.-backed plan.

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SANCHEZ: The development comes just as Israeli Defense Minister, Yoav Gallant, meets with Secretary of State Antony Blinken in Washington, D.C. This is video of Gallant leaving that meeting at the State Department. CNN's Kylie Atwood is there.

Kylie, what are officials saying about today's talks?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, State Department spokesperson Matt Miller just briefed us while this meeting was ongoing. It is now concluded, as you said there, you know, you saw the Israeli Defense Minister leaving here after a meeting that lasted for more than two hours. And Miller said that one of the things that Blinken was going to reiterate in this meeting was the need to de- escalate tensions between Hezbollah and Israel.

Of course, that comes on the heels of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech just yesterday, saying that the intense efforts in Gaza would be winding down and that Israel would be focused more on the north. That is where that conflict between Israel and Hezbollah has been driven up over the course of the last few weeks and months here.

Another message was the need to get humanitarian access into Gaza more easily. That continues to be an issue. And another issue is the need to discuss the day-after plans for Gaza. This is something that U.S. officials have said Israelis have been somewhat resistant to dig into. Matt Miller telling me today that they are somewhat more focused on those conversations now.

But there are also a number of things that Netanyahu said over the weekend that Miller said the U.S. officials are opposed to. One of them is the possibility, Netanyahu said, of temporary military control over civilian life in Gaza. The U.S. opposes that. And also what he said about the need to continue mowing the lawn in Gaza after this intense period of fighting ends. Listen to Miller responding to those two statements from Netanyahu.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW MILLER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: We oppose military control. Look, they have temporary military control now. But we want to see that end. We want to see it transition to a different security environment and ultimately transition to a reunified Gaza and the West Bank. We think continued military action in Gaza just makes Israel weaker. It makes it harder to achieve a resolution in the north. It adds to instability in the West Bank. It makes it harder for Israel to normalize relations with its neighbors. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ATWOOD: And he also, of course, went on to say that continued military operations in Gaza wouldn't be good for the Palestinian people who have had to bear the brunt of this ongoing war. So these are obviously live discussions between the U.S. and Israel and the other players in the region as they try and figure out what the future of Gaza will look like after this intense period of fighting boils down.

And of course, as the United States tries to figure out what exactly Israel's plans are in the north when it comes to Hezbollah.

SANCHEZ: Kylie Atwood live with an update from the State Department, thank you so much.

Let's get some perspective now with CNN Military Analyst retired Air Force colonel, Cedric Leighton is with us.

Colonel, Netanyahu is saying that the intense phase of the war is over in Gaza. The IDF going to refocus now on the border with Lebanon and its potential conflict with Hezbollah. How does that translate to what happens on the ground?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, that's going to be a really difficult aspect of this conflict because really what Israel is getting into right now, Boris, is what amounts to a two- front war. Gaza is not finished, no matter what anybody is saying in Jerusalem or what anybody is saying in Washington. Right now, the key thing is this, Gaza, there are major military operations that have stopped there. The Israelis basically want us to get into a phase where that operation looks like it's more or less done, and then they're just mopping up operations going on there.

And then Israel wants to shift up to the northern front, which is, of course, the Lebanese border, and that means Hezbollah. What the ultimate goal there is for the Hezbollah forces to be forced back to the north of the Litani River. That is a boundary that was established back when they had a U.N. resolution that said Hezbollah should not go further south than that. Of course, they violated that many times.

But basically, what we're looking at is a two-front war, the possibility of that, and Israel has to be very careful at this juncture.

SANCHEZ: How do you read the sort of conflicting statements from Netanyahu? On one hand, he seems to toss aside the deal that's been endorsed by President Biden, saying that he could work out a short- term deal with Hamas. But then you have this news that CNN is getting that Israel sent, through mediators, a message to Hamas saying that they're all in on that deal. What do you make of that?

LEIGHTON: Well, in - on the surface, it sounds like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I think there's more to it than that. I think what is happening is that, you know, as far as Prime Minister Netanyahu is concerned, he wants to maintain power as long as he possibly can and he wants to do that for a variety of reasons, among them legal reasons within the Israeli judicial system.

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But when it comes to what the Israelis want to do diplomatically and militarily, they want Gaza to be more or less over with. And they want to be able to declare some form of victory, whether or not that's the truth on the ground or not. They want to be able to declare that victory and then move on to the north because they see that Hezbollah is rearming. Iran has provided it a lot of munitions in recent weeks and they want to go from there to a way in which they can preempt what Hezbollah either is doing or could do to northern Israel. Plus, they need to repopulate northern Israel to bring those people back who evacuated from that area.

SANCHEZ: Sure. When it comes to the U.S. relationship with Israel, there was something else Netanyahu said that I imagine came up with the meeting between Blinken and Gallant today. And that is that the US has been blocking weapons shipments to Israel. The White House has repeatedly denied that. What's at the crux of this disagreement?

LEIGHTON: Yes, I think there's - you know, part of it must be a semantic disagreement and then there's also the other aspect is that it looks good for Netanyahu to, in essence, put the Biden administration in kind of a dilemma. Because, on the one hand, the Biden administration has said, you shall not use 2,000 pound bombs against populated areas in Gaza. That's what the actual weapons holdup is. They're not allowing those weapons to move forward. Every other form of weapon, to my knowledge, is being supplied to Israel.

So factually, the prime minister is wrong and - but he's using this as a way to, in essence, drive a wedge within the US body politic between the Republicans, who are very pro-Israel, and the Democrats, who basically support what President Biden is doing, also pro-Israel, but with certain limits.

I'm curious about that statement from Netanyahu about mowing the grass in Gaza. There was a CNN analysis that found more than 2,900 acres in Gaza had been bulldozed and destroyed by IDF troops since the start of the war. Why?

LEIGHTON: Well, part of it is there's a doctrine within the Israeli military that basically says you have to go after the civilian infrastructure. They've used that doctrine all the way back to 2008 and perhaps even before that period of time when they were in Gaza another time. Now, there seem to be - they seem to be using that same doctrine to, in essence, destroy the civilian infrastructure.

And basically, no matter what the consequences are, that doctrine calls for Israel to do this and, in essence, to make it really difficult for Hamas or any other group to form up and to do the kinds of things that they did on October 7. So that's one of the things that they're looking at, that what they're trying to do is, by mowing the grass, they're basically trying to keep the grass short so that it doesn't, in a metaphorical sense ...

SANCHEZ: Sure. LEIGHTON: ... so that it doesn't mean that there's another terrorist attack.

SANCHEZ: Colonel Cedric Leighton, appreciate the analysis as always. Thanks for being with us.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Boris. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Still plenty more news to come on New Central, including major flooding in Minnesota that's left a dam in imminent failure condition. Officials say the dam is holding for now, but there are major concerns about folks downstream. That's ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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