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U.S. to Charge Iranian Hackers Who Targeted Trump Campaign; Robert De Niro Calls Trump a Gangster; More Bernie Bros Embracing MAGA Movement. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired September 13, 2024 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Is one of the biggest rule-changes in 30 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The problem is, we're trying to not just make this game better next year, we're trying to keep the game going for 10, 20, 30, 40, that's what our legacy is supposed to be.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, the Bronx, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN BERMAN, CO-ANCHOR, CNN NEWS CENTRAL: All right, our thanks to Sanjay for that. All right, new this morning, the U.S. is about to file criminal charges against hackers supported by Iran accused of stealing some internal documents from the Trump campaign and hacking into e-mails of one of Trump's allies, Roger Stone. Let's get right to CNN cybersecurity reporter Sean Lyngaas for the latest on this. Sean, what are you learning?
SEAN LYNGAAS, CNN CYBERSECURITY REPORTER: John, we're seeing a very different scenario play out this election cycle in 2024 versus 2016. You'll recall in 2016, the Russians did something similar and it took many months for the U.S. government to respond. There's a lot of hesitation and trepidation about what going public with the allegations would do in terms of affect the election.
Now, what we're seeing from the FBI and the Justice Department is an aggressive attempt to sort of blunt the impact of this Iranian operation to, you know, recall the Iranians, according to CNN's reporting, they hacked Roger Stone, the long-time confidant of Donald Trump, and then used access to his e-mail account to try to target the Trump campaign.
And this was in June. So, this is a really quick turnaround for the Justice Department and national security case because they're trying to warn the American public about these attempts to meddle in the election. And like I said, it's night and day from what we saw in 2016, in terms of response to the Russian activity, John. BERMAN: I'm sure Hillary Clinton could tell you, it's like night and
day from their response to 2016. Sean Lyngaas, thank you so much for that. Kate?
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL: You know, getting -- joining us to talk more about this is the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. Congressman, thank you so much for coming in. So, the Justice Department expected to announce criminal charges against Iranian-backed hackers.
Other charges have already been announced against people working for Russian state media accused of secretly trying to amplify right-wing American influencers, outside influence -- attempts it -- outside influence on U.S. elections, bad, no question. How effective are these influence and disinformation campaigns? What are you seeing?
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): Yes, Kate, that's one of our challenges, right? It's really hard to tell how effective these things are, especially, you know, we're in a polarized situation where it seems like, you know, just shy of half Americans are completely dug in on one side, half on the other.
But of course, that means that the races, the presidential race and other races get won on the margin. They get won on the margin and at least, at the presidential and a couple of, you know, locations with tens of thousands of people. So, of course, you know, they could have a real effect.
And Kate, it's important to remember that, you know, people are sort of conflating the Russians with the Chinese and the Iranians. They are the active players in election interference. Two things to remember, number one, when we say election interference, we're not talking about messing with the voting machines or the tabulations.
We're talking about manipulating social media in particular, but media in general, to try to promote misinformation, disinformation, propaganda that serves the interests of one of those states. And in that, second thing I would say is, in that, Russia is really the major league header.
You know, we do see Iran, we do see China operating, but in very different ways than the Russians.
BOLDUAN: You mentioned social media, and I've been -- I've been curious about this. I want to get your take because beyond foreign actors, if you will, powerful people like Elon Musk have also been seen to spread misinformation. This week, he offered some gross political commentary, going after Taylor Swift after Taylor Swift endorsed Kamala Harris, saying that he would give her a child and guard her cats.
Trump has said that if he wins, he will ask Elon Musk to head up what he's calling a government efficiency commission. What would it mean in your view to have Elon Musk in a Trump administration?
HIMES: A question I never thought I would be asked. You know, obviously, I don't know, but I will say two things. Number one, government efficiency is a really serious and important topic that most people aren't honest about. Most Americans and most politicians because they won't deal with the hard stuff, will try to tell the American people that it's all about waste, fraud and abuse.
And of course, there is some of that in the government. But if you really want to think about an efficient government, you're going to talk about how to bring into the 21st century a lot of programs that spend a ton of money from the Pentagon to Medicare programs that are essential to the American people.
And I just don't think Elon Musk and his many memes is necessarily the guy to do that. And second, what I would say about Elon Musk, look, I admire what he did with cars, what he did with SpaceX, I admire a little less what he's doing with Twitter-slash-X.
[09:35:00]
But I don't know him, but watching him on social media, he just looks like a 12-year-old. And Americans need to reflect because democracy is a serious business and the choices that citizens make are serious choices in a nuclear-armed, most powerful democracy ever on the planet. How do you feel about somebody who acts like a 12-year-old being in a position of responsibility, and maybe that will inform your vote in November a little bit.
BOLDUAN: Talking about going back to kind of election security and influence and misinformation campaigns and attempts at it, do you think these charges being brought by the Justice Department, well, they may not ever catch the actors, if you will, charge is brought, making it public.
Do you think that is a good idea? There are some concern about it as our reporting is about how public to go with these influence -- talking about these influence efforts. Do you think that blunts the impact of them?
HIMES: You know, I'm undecided in this debate that says that in a democracy where so much is at stake in an election that is less than two months away, let's get all of the information out there. Let's make sure that we are constantly naming and shaming those, the Russians, RT, those other propaganda fonts that are out there trying to influence our elections from abroad.
I understand the counter-argument. We obviously want to be very careful about protecting sources and methods that we use to gather Intelligence or national security information. We've got to be careful about that -- absolutely. But one of the things that troubles me is that we're going to -- we're going to see more.
I know because of my perch on the Intelligence Committee that we're going to see more examples of in particular Russian meddling in our information ecosystem. And I think it's really important that Americans see that for the comprehensive effort that it is.
And -- and here's the key point. You know, the federal government is not going to fix this problem. We can name and shame the actors, but Americans need to, again, sort of sit back and say, you know, when I'm scrolling through -- doom-scrolling through some of the social media feed, and I'm feeling enraged when I'm convinced that the other side is not the opposition, but that they are traitors and un-American who is manipulating me.
And that's why I think it's really important for Americans to know that the information they see -- look, it may be First Amendment protected political speech, it may also be something that the Kremlin desperately wants you to believe.
BOLDUAN: An important conversation. Thanks for coming on, congressman. It's good to see you. Thank you. Sara?
HIMES: Thank you, Kate --
SARA SIDNER, CO-ANCHOR, CNN NEWS CENTRAL: All right, still ahead, one of the film's most famous gangster is making a bold claim about what he calls Donald Trump's mob tactics. Chris Wallace is here after his conversation --
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[09:40:00]
SIDNER: All right, 52 days away from the presidential election and the celebrity endorsements rolling in for both candidates. The latest, of course, and perhaps the biggest is Taylor Swift as she is in her Kamala era. Joining me now is CNN's Chris Wallace, host of "WHO'S TALKING TO CHRIS WALLACE?".
Chris, you talked to Robert De Niro. He is not known for being demure and cutesy and a quiet guy. He's got a lot of opinions. What stood out to you after -- he also took part in that sort of pythons(ph) for Kamala this week or last week. What stood out from your conversation with him?
CHRIS WALLACE, CNN REPORTER: Well, what stood out is the fact that frankly, people come on my show -- our shows because actors do, because they have something they want to promote. Robert De Niro had nothing he wanted to promote. He just wanted to talk politics, and he really wanted to take down Donald Trump. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Do you really worry that if he were to win again, and I'm not saying this like it's such a far-fetched notion, if he were to win again, that he would not give up power?
ROBERT DE NIRO, ACTOR: Perhaps, you know he won't. You know he won't. He even said it. He's never going to give it up. And anybody who deludes themselves in thinking that he is, shame on you.
WALLACE: You have compared the Trump family to a gangster family, which is something coming from you. What do you mean? DE NIRO: Oh, they are. Well, he -- because he -- every -- he thinks
he's a gangster. He does everything like a gangster. I don't think that gangsters in that world would want -- think much of him, because you -- in any -- there's honor among thieves. There's honor in anything if you don't keep your word and do the right thing with people, no matter what profession you're in, you are going to get ostracized. And in that world is a little harder.
(LAUGHTER)
WALLACE: Yes, is more than being ostracized.
DE NIRO: Sure.
WALLACE: Well, when you say that they're gangsters, in what way?
DE NIRO: He thinks he's a gangster. He thinks -- I do something for you, you do something for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: You know, that's what I found so fascinating, Sara, here is Robert De Niro, perhaps the most famous gangster actor in the world, saying that the gangsters he knows -- and he admits he knows some members of the mob, has certainly come across some in his 50 years in acting in New York City. He says, they -- what have nothing to do with Donald Trump.
SIDNER: I like how he said it would be a little bit harder in the gangster world, you know, like perhaps losing --
WALLACE: That's right --
SIDNER: A finger. I mean, I don't know, I'm just saying. Let me ask you about what we're hearing from Donald Trump. He has said very plainly, both, you know, in person and on social media, that he will not debate Kamala Harris again. Why do you think he's doing this or not doing this?
WALLACE: I think for a few reasons. First of all, I think he recognizes in his heart of hearts like most people who watched the debate, that he got whipped on Tuesday night, she took him down in a way that I don't think any political opponent, Republican or Democrat ever has before.
[09:45:00]
That's one. So, two, why give her another platform of 60 to 70 million people, sometime in October, less than a month before the election to do it again. And three, you know, I -- this election is far from over, even though I think she had a very good debate, she may have opened the door to people who have a lot of doubts, but I don't think she's made the sale.
The polls reflect that. And I think he thinks -- and I think he's probably right that he is better off campaigning separately, keeping his distance from her, and hoping that the questions about her fitness and how liberal she is remain, rather than giving her another big platform to answer those questions. Having said all of that, Sara, it is Donald Trump. I'd say it's at least a 50-50 chance he'll change his mind and do a debate.
SIDNER: We have seen that plan before. Chris Wallace, thank you so much, and you're going to watch the full episode of "WHO'S TALKING TO CHRIS WALLACE" streaming today on Max. Kate.
BOLDUAN: They once were Bernie Bros, and now say that they are full MAGA enthusiasts. Why the switch?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One, I was just a part of them four years ago. I was -- I was in it, right? I've been betrayed by them multiple times. So now, I'm trying my hand being betrayed by the Republican Party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[09:50:00]
BERMAN: So, this morning, a very special preview with a very special person.
BOLDUAN: God, it sounds crazy.
BERMAN: On this week's "WHOLE STORY", CNN's Donie O'Sullivan looks at how disillusion former progressives are now embracing far-right extremism and how some misinformation sent them along for the ride. And you know, who's here with us right now? That special person, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I've been called a special person all my life. Yes, so, "WHOLE STORY" this week, misinformation. We've been kind of looking at the political under-current, the fringes of politics in this country. Although, as we've seen this week, the fringes like Laura Loomer are people who are now jumping very much into the mainstream and affecting politics.
What we have been looking at is Bernie Bros from 2020, 2016, a lot of them present, not insignificant number of them have gone to Trump, but all the way beyond that to the far-right. And we met two of them in this week's episode of the "WHOLE STORY". Take a quick look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But the men that we met here weren't always this way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Jackson Henkels(ph) --
O'SULLIVAN: A few years ago, Jackson was campaigning for progressive causes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was BLM originally, BLM has been corrupted by
NATO, by the government.
O'SULLIVAN: And Adam, a.k.a., Charm Hold(ph) had changed as well.
(on camera): So, you used to be a big liberal --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Money holding each other --
O'SULLIVAN: You used to be a big liberal?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely --
O'SULLIVAN: A big Democrat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely, yes.
O'SULLIVAN: You were a Bernie Bro?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bernie Bro, through and through.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): I wanted to find out, what have made them change.
(on camera): Why do you think the Russians like you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I speak truth.
O'SULLIVAN: Good to see you, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: American politics is schizophrenic. But you got one side saying you're crazy, you got the other side saying you're crazy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'SULLIVAN: So, I think it's about 8 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters in the 2020 Democratic primary are now Trump supporters. So, it's not an insignificant number. Obviously, in this case, these are guys who have gotten very much to the far-right, and you'll see in the piece this week what we're really looking at here as it plays a lot into -- you know, we hear a lot about Andrew Chase and the --
SIDNER: Right --
O'SULLIVAN: Sort of online toxic masculinity. That's kind of a lot of what we're seeing here. It's where guys, maybe some of them, their lives aren't going so great for whatever reason, and sometimes of course, there's -- you know, wider societal and economic reasons for that.
But online -- and the guy you saw there, Adam, he's very much -- he spends most of his days playing video games and listening to live streamers talk about politics. They are being told, this is not your fault. This is people who fight for trans-rights fault. It is Mexican immigrants fault. It's liberals fault. It is -- it's -- and so, it is this kind of part of radicalization and extremism?
BERMAN: Is there a disavowal of like Bernie Sanders in that whole world that he was in?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, there's a big disappointment that, you know, he -- they view that -- they view rightly or wrongly that the -- Bernie was -- the primaries were stolen from him in 2016 and 2020, and they essentially --
BOLDUAN: So, they're still Bernie and MAGA?
O'SULLIVAN: Well, no, they are disappointed that Bernie didn't do what Trump did, which is, you know, in their view, fight. And so, they feel -- they feel abandoned by Bernie. But again, it just plays into this room, kind of toxic space online.
SIDNER: Wow.
BERMAN: Sounds like an adventure you had diving into this --
O'SULLIVAN: Oh, yes, always --
BOLDUAN: And just continues.
O'SULLIVAN: Always.
BERMAN: All right, Donie O'Sullivan, great to see you, thank you so much for being here. And do not miss this special all new episode of the "WHOLE STORY" with Anderson Cooper Sunday night at 8 O'clock Eastern.
O'SULLIVAN: That's my thinking face --
BOLDUAN: It does look like your thinking face --
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Yes --
BOLDUAN: That is your thinking face.
SIDNER: Let's all do a Donie.
(LAUGHTER)
BOLDUAN: If you want to talk about special, this entire day --
(CROSSTALK)
SIDNER: Donie --
BOLDUAN: Has been special --
SIDNER: Tell me about it -- BOLDUAN: It really has been, not only is it Friday, the 13th, so,
gird your loins, but it's just been a special day here, and we would like to leave you with the embodiment of all of that, which has been our highlights of today's episode of CNC, Friday, the 13th version.
[09:55:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON KANDER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE OF MISSOURI: If at some point two things happen, which is my kids stopped being interested in hanging out with me, which you know, they're 11 and 4, so, I think they've got a --
BERMAN: Yes --
KANDER: Few years. And two --
BOLDUAN: Hope you got --
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
KANDER: If the other thing that happens is -- oh, did I get a thumbs up on that? I don't understand how this technology works?
SIDNER: Yes, you got --
(LAUGHTER)
BERMAN: It seems --
KANDER: It seems you've got to look at -- well, look, I am thumbs up about how my life is right now --
(LAUGHTER)
KANDER: I'll do everything you need -- oh, look at this, it's crazy. I'm breaking new ground on CNN.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: That was the best part of the show today. We just had a lot of issues, guys.
BOLDUAN: It's not going to make me cry laugh --
SIDNER: It was my wrong day --
BOLDUAN: I don't know why -- I don't know why I keep crying every time I see it.
BERMAN: We've got an army of our best people trying to figure out what happened there.
BOLDUAN: He said another way, we will figure out this setting to make sure it happens every time from here on out.
BERMAN: Oh, my goodness, but honestly, like what could sway -- I mean, he was laughing.
BOLDUAN: He was very kind --
BERMAN: He was laughing there --
BOLDUAN: We broke out in sweats, but he was very --
BERMAN: I don't know, honestly, big things is what happen -- yes, this guy -- this poor guest of ours is having fireworks still up behind him, he's never --
BOLDUAN: I know --
BERMAN: Going to forget that --
SIDNER: He's never going to come back --
BOLDUAN: Do we have a feature -- like can we have fireworks at the end of the show? That's what I really like --
BERMAN: Yes --
BOLDUAN: We're still working --
BERMAN: The fireworks is happening --
BOLDUAN: Control room says --
BERMAN: Jerry (ph) --
BOLDUAN: Got, coming at you. In concept as Donald Trump would say. Thank you so much for joining us --
(LAUGHTER)
SIDNER: Kate has been --
BOLDUAN: I did it --
SIDNER: Cry-laughing this whole show --
BOLDUAN: I know, I vowed --
SIDNER: It's the best part of the show. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL with Kate Bolduan, John Berman, Sara Sidner. "CNN NEWSROOM" up next.
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