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Israeli Military Investigating Hamas Leader's Death. Aired 9- 9:30a ET

Aired October 17, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: That we have so far, which, again, limited but critical. We can put it up for everyone. This is the statement coming from - from the IDF of what we're talking about. "During IDF operations in the Gaza Strip, three terrorists were eliminated. The IDF and ISA are checking the possibility that one of the terrorists was Yahya Sinwar. At this stage the identity of the terrorists cannot be confirmed. In the building where the terrorists were eliminated," this goes on to say, "there were no signs of the presence of hostages in the area. The forces that are operating in the area are continuing to operate with the required caution."

One thing we know is just how American officials have talked about Yahya Sinwar, his role in - Jeremy, in the - in the hostage and ceasefire negotiations. And I was just looking back, I mean, Tony Blinken saying very clearly that Yahya Sinwar has been and remains the primary decider when it comes to concluding the ceasefire. And again, you're getting at what - this adds to one of the reasons why this could be so significant and just how Tony Blinken and multiple U.S. officials have put this at the feet of Yahya Sinwar for so long.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And beyond that, Kate, I mean, Sinwar is just an enormous presence in Gaza. He was feared in Gaza long before he even came Hamas' leader in 2017 because he was in charge of the unit that effectively went after people who they viewed as potential collaborators with the Israeli government. He's a very feared figure within the Gaza Strip. And that has been part of his power inside of Gaza.

And beyond that he has, of course, been intimately involved in Hamas' military and its terrorist operations. And of course, he is one of the last senior leaders of Hamas who still remains alive. We saw that the Israeli military has taken out Mohammed Deif, the head of the al- Qassam brigades, Hamas' military wing. And that left Yahya Sinwar, of course, not only in charge of Hamas' political branch following the assassination of Ismail Haniyeh, but also very much in charge of Hamas' military operations as this war has stretched, now - is now entering its second year.

And Sinwar, you know, beyond the fact that, of course, he is reviled by Israelis for his role in October 7th, for his role in multiple other attacks against Israeli civilians and soldiers, he has also increasingly taken - drawn anger from Palestinian civilians in Gaza as well. I have increasingly seen, in the scenes following bombings in Gaza, following the deaths of people in Gaza as a result of Israeli military strikes, people expressing anger not only with the Israeli military, the Israeli government, but also cursing Sinwar himself. And that reflects the fact that, of course, he has been hiding in tunnels, or at least that was the understanding, that was the belief over the course of the last year while enormous suffering was happening above ground.

And of course, over the course of the last year, he has refused to surrender his weapons despite the fact that the Israeli military has clearly devastated not only Hamas but, of course, the Gaza Strip. And so his death will have enormous implications for Hamas' hold on power in Gaza, for its - the continuation of its military operations against the Israeli military in Gaza. And it could also, of course, have enormous implications for those ceasefire negotiations which you were also referencing.

We know that Sinwar, in the past, has been one of the more hardline figures within Hamas. That's why there was so much concern following the death - the assassination of Ismail Haniyeh, that perhaps now with Sinwar in charge they would take an even harder line.

We know, of course, that the Israeli government itself has also been an obstacle to moving those ceasefire negotiations forward. So, Sinwar is certainly not the only player in these talks. But his death, if indeed it is confirmed, will send shockwaves throughout this region and it will have enormous implications for the hostages, for the civilians in Gaza and, of course, for the future of this war.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: I want to now bring in Cedric Leighton.

Thank you so much, Jeremy. Stick with us. Obviously, there's so much more to discuss here.

He is with us I think on the phone, is that correct? Cedric - oh, no, there you are. I see you live.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Right here.

SIDNER: Cedric, I want to ask you about something that - that - that we are - we are hearing. How will the IDF go about trying to determine whether or not this is Yahya Sinwar? We know that he was in an Israeli prison for 22 years. They do have his DNA. Is that what they're going to be using going forward to try to figure out if this is him. There are, of course, pictures and videos that are surfacing as well.

LEIGHTON: Yes, absolutely, Sara.

So, what the Israelis are going to do is they're going to do a forensic examination. It is kind of like what a coroner would be doing in a murder case. And they will take a look - they have the DNA, like you mentioned, from his prison time in Israel.

[09:05:05]

They will also have some other patterns of life, proof-of-life type things. And if there's - if that proof of life is lacking, in other words there's no movement, no communications indicating that he is alive, all of those things are going to become a critical component of their assessment. And when the Israelis are certain, you know, especially if they have the forensic evidence and, you know, naturally if they have the body, that is then going to make it possible for them to determine whether or not, in fact, Yahya Sinwar has been killed at this - at this particular juncture.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Again, we continue to monitor this news. And you'll see us looking down at our computers and our phones because we're working our sources too trying to get as much information as we can.

The information that we're getting is that the Israeli military, the IDF, is investigating whether one of three what they're calling terrorists killed inside Gaza, if one of those people was Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, considered to be the mastermind of the October 7th attack.

Jeremy Diamond, if you are still with us, again, the significance - OK, we do not longer - we no longer have Jeremy with us.

And then Cedric, if you are still with us then I'll put this to you, from just a military, strategic standpoint here, Israel has killed the Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, in the last several weeks. To remove the leadership of Hezbollah and also Hamas within this short period of time, what kind of strategic success would that be?

LEIGHTON: Well, it's a significant, strategic success, John. And - and basically what the Israelis have done is a very deliberate series of decapitation strikes. And not only have they done - have they - if this is true, have they conducted decapitation strikes that go all the way up to the top of the Hamas organization, the Hezbollah organization, but they've also gone into the mid level. And in Gaza it was more of a kinetic action in most cases to go after them. I - in the case of Hezbollah, they went after them, of course, using the pagers and the walkie-talkies, in addition to the airstrikes.

So, you've got this confluence of events that's happening, John. And what's going on with the Israelis is they are basically fulfilling a plan that they had developed over the years to go after all the different leadership elements in these terrorists groups. They know that decapitating these groups is one way to at least limit their effectiveness because they're, in many ways, top-down organizations with some degree of independence in their cells. But that independence in their cells means that they will lack coordination with - minus a senior leader like Yahya Sinwar.

So, this is very significant if it turns out to be true. It will be another move in the Israeli direction to basically try to eliminate the threat as much as they can. And that is, in essence, what this plan was, to decapitate these various organizations and make them far less effective when it comes to attacking Israel.

SIDNER: Yes, I mean, I think we need to reiterate just how big this would be if Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas, has been killed. Now, we do not know if that is the case. The IDF is checking. They are trying to - to go through all of the rigor that it takes to make sure that they know exactly who was killed. They are saying that they have killed three terrorists and they suspect one may be Sinwar.

I want to bring in our Nada Bashir, who is joining us now.

You've done extensive reporting on the Palestinians who are in Gaza, who have been dealing with this war that has just left a huge humanitarian crisis. I am curious what you think this means for the people of Gaza, but also how they may react if indeed Sinwar has been taken out by Israeli forces.

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, we've been hearing from the Israeli military from the outset of this war that they want to target Hamas leaders wherever they may be located. Whether that's in the Gaza Strip, whether that's in Lebanon, whether that is indeed in - on Iranian territory.

This will be a significant blow to Hamas. We have, of course, seen the Israeli military targeting Hamas militants on the ground in Gaza throughout this war. But, of course, this is the leader, a significant figure, somebody who has gained a significant reputation across the Gaza Strip for years now. And, of course, for many in Gaza the fighting that we are seeing by Hamas is seen as a form of resistance against the Israeli military assault. But, of course, as Jeremy mentioned, there is also a lot of anger from the Palestinian people directed towards Hamas as well. So, dragging Gaza into this war as well. So there has been mixed emotions towards Hamas as an organization.

[09:10:03]

Of course, internationally, Hamas viewed widely as terrorist organization. Yahya Sinwar, enemy number one for the Israeli government, who, from the outset of this war, have expressed their intention to eliminate Yahya Sinwar and other senior leaders. And that is what we have been seeing. As you just heard there, we've seen the leader of Hezbollah, a key ally, Hassan Nasrallah killed. We saw earlier in the year Hamas' deputy political leader, Saleh al-Arouri (ph) assassinated in Beirut. We later saw Ismari Hania (ph), the political leader assassinated too. So, we have been seeing these senior figures across both Hamas and Hezbollah being targeted directly by the Israeli military.

Of course, it remains to be confirmed whether indeed Yahya Sinwar has, in fact, been killed. The Israeli military still carrying out their assessments. So, we have no update on that just yet. For many in Gaza, of course, it remains to be seen how this translates on the ground. What this means for Israel's military operations as well.

We know according to the U.S. government assessment that Hamas' military capabilities have been downgraded. We've previously heard from the State Department saying that they believe Hamas' military capabilities have been downgraded to a point where they are no longer in a position to carry out an attack on the sale of the attack on Israel we saw on October 7th. The Israeli government has maintained that while it is intent on downgrading Hamas' military capabilities, they want to eradicate the organization entirely, particularly its top leaders. That has been the expressed aim of the Israeli government and military from the outset of this war.

We've heard from more far-right members of the Israeli cabinet, including, of course, the prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, all saying that they are intent on completing their express goals. That is, of course, the complete eradication of Hamas, despite the immense civilian toll that we have seen in Gaza, despite a humanitarian catastrophe that continues to deteriorate in Gaza. This war continues.

And again, with the ceasefire negotiations, Yehya Sinwar, a key figure in those discussions. The U.S. and Israel have accused Yahya Sinwar of standing in the way of progress of ceasefire negotiations. Others, including regional mediators, have accused the Israeli government of putting forward new conditions which have prevented the negotiations from moving forward.

What this will mean for the ceasefire negotiations, again, that remains to be seen, but it is a significant blow to Hamas if indeed this is confirmed. And, of course, the reaction on the ground from Palestinian its be mixed.

BERMAN: Nada Bashir, standby for a moment, if you will.

Joining us now is Barak Ravid from "Axios," a CNN contributor as well.

I don't think anyone is more plugged in to Israeli sources then you are, Barak. What are you hearing at this moment about these reports, that it's possible that Yahya Sinwar was one of these three terrorists killed?

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND FOREIGN POLJICY ANALYST: Well, first, at the moment, with the IDF and the Shin Bet intelligence agency are doing is they are working on getting a DNA test done and to match the fingerprints. The Israelis have both Yahya Sinwar's fingerprints and DNA from the time when he was in Israeli prison. So, this shouldn't be a very complicated thing to do. So, I think that it's a matter of hours and not many hours we'll have a confirmation whether it is Yahya Sinwar or not.

But all the Israeli officials I speak to say that it is 99 percent that Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas, the mastermind of the October 7th attacks, who was responsible for murder of 1,200 people on October 7th, among them, more than 43 Americans is dead.

BOLDUAN: Barak, with all of your connections and your sources, what are you hearing in terms of if this is Sinwar? You said that what you're hearing from your sources is they're 99 percent there. We will wait and hear from the Israeli government, of course. But what are you hearing from your sources on the if then what? If it is Sinwar, then what?

RAVID: Well, I think one of the things that at least the Israeli officials felt was that it will be very hard to reach an end to the war while Sinwar is still alive. For several reasons. One reason is that one of the main scenarios that the Israelis want to achieve is a Hamas surrender. And it was clear that Sinwar is not going to surrender, not going to leave the Gaza Strip and not willing to, you know, end the war.

On the other hand, killing Sinwar is a huge win for the Israeli government.

[09:15:00]

And this is - this might be the winning picture that Benjamin Netanyahu was looking for and that will allow politically for the Israeli government to move towards ending the war. So, I think if indeed Yahya Sinwar is dead, this is a dramatic moment in this war that might take us to the next phase and allow us to really start talking seriously about ending this war.

SIDNER: And we are still waiting for confirmation as to whether or not it is, in fact, the head of Hamas, Yahya Sinwar, who has been killed in this strike.

I do want to ask you, just sort of to - a knock on to this. He does have a brother, Muhammad Sinwar (ph), who, all of the other or many of the other commanders around him, senior commanders around Sinwar, have been killed in this, but he does have a brother who is known to be a more experienced and ruthless person than the people who have been at the top of Hamas.

Would there be a sense that they will be worried about potentially his brother then taking the reins, or would this be a moment where Israel looks at this, that Hamas is completely decimated, and, as you said, starts to back out of this war?

RAVID: Well, you know, I don't know how - how much more ruthless from Yahya Sinwar anybody can be. You know, a person that gave the order to, you know, conduct the biggest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, you know. I'm not sure - I mean it's - it's an already pretty high bar.

On the other hand, I think Hamas is decimated. It is not functioning anymore as a military organization. And Yahya Sinwar was a symbol for Hamas and for its members. And even though, you know, Hamas is not going to be completely wiped out, not going to be completely destroyed, I think that it will be anybody else within Hamas will have a very hard time to achieve the same status Yahya Sinwar had.

BERMAN: Barak, do you have any visibility on what the IDF for Shin Bet thinks that Sinwar has been doing in recent weeks or months? How he has been living or operating, which then might fill us in on how Israel staged this operation if that is, in fact, what happened?

RAVID: That - by the way, I mean, this is a great question because this is exactly how this operation happened. It's not even an operation. I don't think we can call it an operation. This thing happened by coincidence, OK. I heard from the, you know, very senior IDF officials that said it wasn't based on intelligence. It's not that the soldiers were there looking if Yahya Sinwar. It was a routine patrol that encountered three armed men between the houses, exchanged fire and kill them. And only then they realized that this person, at least one of them, might be Yahya Sinwar.

And what it shows you, that Sinwar was moving between hiding places in the last few months. That what he has been doing. And he was moving in a very small group with only two bodyguards. And this is how it happened. It was not some, you know, sophisticated operation. This is not bin Laden in (INAUDIBLE). This is a coincidence. And many Israeli commanders said for months that the fact that the Gaza Strip is full of IDF forces will, at the end of the day, lead them to Sinwar.

BOLDUAN: That is - right. That is fascinating because I was - my question was going to be, what an intelligence success are you hearing this would be. And it's happenstance.

RAVID: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Because - well, especially because what was known publicly was that Sinwar was just in the tunnels. Sinwar was hiding out, and that was the problem all along is that he was being protected and he was - and - and that's why they could not find him for so long, or at all. And you're saying this was a routine patrol that led them to this.

RAVID: Yes. Yes. Again, according to the IDF officials I spoke to, and they're pretty senior, this was not some sophisticated operation. This was not like an intelligence-based raid. The soldiers who killed Yahya Sinwar were not part of, you know, the Navy SEALs or some special forces. They were, you know, regular infantry soldiers that encountered armed men, exchanged fire, like any incident that happens, I don't know, ten times a day in Gaza over the last few months.

SIDNER: What you're saying is this was not a strike, right, this was something else. Routine patrol. It was - basically he was shot instead of, you know, there being an airstrike.

[09:20:01]

Is that what you're - what you're saying that you're hearing from Israeli officials?

RAVID: Again, I don't know if the final, you know, exchange of fire that killed them was from the infantry soldiers or from a drone that was called into the area. I don't know that specific point. I'm just saying that it wasn't like they, you know, usually the IDF gets intelligence and then either fighter jets or a drone conducts an air strike on a target. This was not the case. This incident started as a, you know, encounter on, you know, in a neighborhood in southern Gaza between infantry soldiers and armed Palestinian militants. And only after the incident ended, they realize that one of the armed militants was, you know, it's highly probable was Yahya Sinwar.

BERMAN: So, Barak, if we can do this, because we've got a team of people here, if you need to go make phone calls or text people, do it.

BOLDUAN: But please stay close. BERMAN: And let us know what you find out and get back to us as soon as you can. So, stand by and do what you need to do.

BOLDUAN: His sourcing is amazing.

BERMAN: His sourcing is amazing.

I want to bring back in Jeremy Diamond just to reset for a second here before we bring in our other guest.

Jeremy, just reset with the news here, what has been explicitly said at this point by the IDF.

DIAMOND: Yes, well, in terms of the official statement from the IDF, what they are saying for now is that they have killed what they describe as three terrorists in the Gaza Strip. And they say that one of those may indeed be Yahya Sinwar. They say that they are, quote, "checking the possibility" of whether or not it was him, but they say that for now the identity of those three men cannot yet be confirmed.

They are also saying, and this is very notable and very important, that there are, quote, "no signs of the presence of hostages in the area." And also notably that this exchange of fire, this incident where this man who may be Yahya Sinwar was killed, that this happened in a building. And I just want to hone in on that for a moment because over the course of the last year, the working assumption has been that Yahya Sinwar has been underground, that he has been in the maze of tunnels beneath Gaza. Some of these tunnels going as far as 50, 60, 70 meters underground. And the notion that he would have been above ground here shows that he was moving hiding places, that he was above ground rather than inside of a tunnel.

And in addition, the fact that there were no hostages present also potentially breaks another major assumption that we have had over the course of the last year, and that is that Sinwar was believed to be hiding underground with a group of hostages, potentially a dozen hostages or so, that he was effectively using as a human shield so that should the IDF find out his location and want to take him out, that they might think twice before dropping one of those massive 2,000 pound bombs in order to kill him. But in this case, the Israeli military is saying that this man, who they believe may be but don't yet have confirmation of whether this was Yahya Sinwar, was not surrounded with any hostages in the area.

This would, of course, be an earth-shattering moment in this war that has lasted now for a year and ten days since that October 7th massacre of which Sinwar was indeed the mastermind and certainly was the man who ultimately gave the go ahead to carry out that attack that saw the killing of some 1,200 Israelis, the majority of whom were civilians. And of course, beyond that, he - his decision to launch that attack unleashed a war that has seen more than 41,000 Palestinians killed according to the Palestinian ministry of health, over the course of the last year. And while certainly those Palestinians were killed by Israeli bombs and bullets, there's no question that even inside of Gaza a share of people view him as also partially responsible for the death and destruction that has been wrought in Gaza since October 7th of last year.

BOLDUAN: All right, let's stick with this breaking news and let's get over to the State Department now.

Kiley, obviously - Kylie Atwood is there.

Obviously, the U.S. government asking a lot of questions and probably scrambling at this moment. What have you heard from the State Department so far?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, Kate, we're not actually hearing anything official from the Biden administration right now. The president is on his way to Europe. He is joined by the secretary of state, by his national security advisor, on that flight. So, rest assured, that they are, you know, likely tracking this as closely as we are. But we have not heard any official statements out from U.S. officials.

I want to give you some context here for how major this development would be in the eyes of U.S. officials who have been working really for the greater part of the last year to try and push forward a ceasefire and hostage release deal between Sinwar, Hamas, and Israel.

[09:25:09]

We heard just in recent months from the secretary state, Antony Blinken, that Sinwar is critical to that deal. That he is - that, quote, "the fate of the deal is in Sinwar's hands." That's how the secretary of state recently put it. And, obviously, we have seen those conversations stalled, if not completely halted in recent weeks, in recent months, as the Israelis have really focused their military might on the north when it comes to that conflict between Israel and Hezbollah across the Lebanese border. And so U.S. officials have not seen much momentum at all when it comes to the efforts that they have put into those hostage and ceasefire negotiations.

But we should know that one of the major challenges with those ongoing negotiations had been that it would take a long time for Hamas to get back to the negotiators. The U.S. officials and the Qatari officials were shuttling between Israel and Hamas to try and come to a deal. And the U.S. believed that the reason that it was taking so long is because Sinwar was, in the words of the secretary of state, deep under the tunnels of Gaza. So, the U.S. believed that he was, you know, hidden somewhere, that there were no electronic messages coming out from him that allowed the Israelis, allowed U.S. intelligence to track where he was.

So, one of the major things that we'll be watching to learn, if it is confirmed that this operator, this IDF operation in Gaza has killed Sinwar, is exactly how this all happened, where Sinwar was actually found at the end of the day given the working assumption that he was so deep underground.

And, of course, the other question is, does this actually pave the way for those ceasefire and hostage negotiations to begin in fulsome once again. Who is going to be the person who's going to be speaking for Hamas if Sinwar is no longer making the ultimate decisions. And U.S. officials long said, yes, there are many members of Hamas who are in Doha who we are in touch with. There are members of Hamas who are around Sinwar in the tunnels of Gaza. But ultimately, Sinwar is the one who makes the final decision. He was the one who was blocking any deal from going forward.

But there's context here to consider, of course, with the death of the leader of Hezbollah just a few weeks ago. We have not seen an end to the conflict between the Israelis and the - and Hezbollah along that Lebanese border, even into Beirut now. So, it's not rest assured that this will, in fact, lead to an end of this conflict. But U.S. officials will certainly see it as an opportunity to push it in that direction.

SIDNER: Thank you to our Kylie Atwood.

And just to recap, the possibility here is that the IDF may have killed Yahya Sinwar, who is the head of Hamas, one of the few leadership left, the person who was the mastermind for October 7th. We do not know if that has actually happened because the IDF is checking his fingerprints and checking DNA. But we will be sticking with this story throughout with much more information on how this happened, where this happened, and what it means for the war in the Middle East.

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