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Kurt Volker is Interviewed about Ukraine; Meadows' Request to Move Case Rejected; Kate Bennett is Interviewed about Melania Trump. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired November 12, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

TRICIA MCLAUGHLIN, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL AND FORMER SENIOR ADVISER AND COMMS DIRECTOR, VIVEK RAMASWAMY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Homan, who was former ICE director, picking Stephen Miller, that's absolutely a signal to all Americans that he is very serious about mass deportations. We know from polling that 54 percent of Americans want mass deportations. And - and based on the election, this is a mandate for Donald Trump. I think that there's been a great effort to demonize Stephen Miller, demonize Tom Homan, who's less familiar to the American people, but they're carrying out what is the president's agenda. I think on the foreign policy front, a lot of Republicans who are moderates, but also on the further right, are optimistic about Marco Rubio. He's been able to work with both sides but has been very hawkish, especially on Israel. So, it's not a good day to be a terrorist, that's for sure.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, Christy, when we talk about immigration, where do you see Democrats deciding to push back? Would it be on the entire agenda or will it just be on parts of it?

CHRISTY SETZER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND FORMER SPOKESPERSON, AL GORE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: What I would say is that Joe Biden showed that you can have a sensible immigration policy where border crossings are - it's really important to remember, border crossings were lower during the Biden administration than they were during the Trump administration. We just didn't put forth policies, like family separation, that were designed to be cruel. That is what Donald Trump is showing, not just by endorsing a policy of mass deportations, but making Stephen Miller and Tom Homan, some of the first people that he actually announced. It was saying, we're going to lead with fear and cruelty rather than effectiveness.

So, look, I think that you can find - Democrats could find common ground with Republicans in terms of policies that would actually crack down on, you know, illegal border crossings. But what they're not going to do is endorse policies that, again, are only meant to sort of, you know, to instill fear, to say that we're going to deport legal immigrants as well as illegal immigrants if they're part of the same family. They're not going to play into that fearmongering.

So, the second that it sort of gets to that, I think you're going to see real Democratic opposition. BERMAN: I will say, the border crossings went down only at the end of

the Biden administration when he implemented the executive order, after the bipartisan plan failed because Donald Trump, by and large, spiked it.

SETZER: Right, because Donald Trump -

BERMAN: I saw you nodding.

SETZER: Correct.

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, I think we have to be clear. I mean even the September border crossings were up 112 percent. There's been 10 to 15 million people who have come into this country illegally. We saw recent ICE reporting data that showed in the last decade - let's be fair, in the last decade there's been 14,000 illegal immigrants who have come into this country, who have committed and been convicted of murder, 24,000 committed and convicted of sexual assault and rape. Those are people who they're going to target first. Those are people who are national security threats.

So, again, I want to be very clear, no one is talking about deporting legal immigrants. That is absolutely not true. We're talking about -

SETZER: Except for Tom Homan, who will actually be in charge of that policy. I'm sorry, lots of people are talking about it -

MCLAUGHLIN: That's unconstitutional.

SETZER: Because of that interview that he gave with "60 Minutes."

Yes, in fact, it is unconstitutional. And that's exactly what they're supporting. So, I think I want to be clear about the fact that this is both fearmongering, but it is also the policy that the person who's going to be in charge of these supports and has actively talked about it.

BERMAN: All right. This is the discussion that will be taking place the next 60-plus days during the transition and then immediately during the new administration.

Christy Setzer, Tricia McLaughlin, thank you so much for being here.

MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Appreciate it.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you.

Ahead, when President-elect - or, sorry, President Donald Trump heads to the White House to meet with President Biden, Melania Trump won't be with him. Why she's skipping the traditional White House tea with Jill Biden. And Israel's president is also heading to the White House. This as aid groups are saying Israel has failed to improve devastating humanitarian conditions in Gaza by a key U.S. deadline.

Those stories, ahead.

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[09:38:32]

SIDNER: Right now Russian forces are ramping up their ground offensive to try and push Ukrainian troops out of Russia's Kursk region. Ukrainian President Zelenskyy says Russia has deployed nearly 50,000 troops, including North Koreans, to the region where Ukraine launched its counteroffensive a few months ago, which stunned Moscow.

Joining me now to discuss, former U.S. ambassador to NATO, Kurt Volker.

Thank you so much.

I do find very interesting something that you wrote in or were asked about in an article where you talked about the difference between a Biden/Harris approach to Ukraine and what you think Trump will bring. And you said, "we saw the U.S. being slow, reactive, not willing to give Ukraine the weapons needed, not willing to give them the authorization to use those weapons, an excessively cautious approach, one that worried too much about escalation and not really one designed to help Ukraine win. What I think we have with Trump now is the opportunity to compete, the opportunity to see whether we can get a stronger western position in support of Ukraine that might actually be decisive."

Why do you think that?

KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Well, I think that there's a couple things. First off, on the Biden side, you know, we saw that pattern over years, really, of first saying "no" to weapons systems, like stingers or HIMARS or F-16s or armor, only to then say "yes," but provide them much later than was really necessary. We had that famed counteroffensive a year ago that didn't get anywhere because we were so slow in getting them the things prior to that.

[09:40:09]

We are still in a situation where the administration has said they will not allow Ukraine to fire the weapons that we've given them, long-range into Russia, even though Russia is firing from those distant locations to attack Ukraine. So, the Ukrainians are very, very frustrated with this.

With Trump, what he has said is he wants to end the war and he wants there to be peace and he wants it to be a fair peace. Those are pretty much the only quotes he has said, other than, of course, to say that this would never have happened if he was president, which is kind of a poke at what he sees as weakness in the Biden administration. Now, in order to end the war, you have to convince Putin to stop. The

only reason there is a war is that he's attacked Ukraine and he keeps attacking. And the only thing that will cause Putin to stop is the clarity in Putin's mind that there will be enough force ahead of him and it will take long enough and it will be so costly for Russia that he needs to stop. And that's what we have to try to put together, a way of stopping Putin because he concludes that it's too costly and then a peace and then to try to turn that peace into a permanent peace, which I would say ideally is through NATO membership for Ukraine.

SIDNER: I want to ask you about some of the things Donald Trump, though, has said, because he has blamed the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, for helping start that - his nation's war with Russia, which was started my Russia, that invaded Ukraine. He's also complained a lot about the amount of money going to Ukraine and, you know, wants to know what Ukraine is doing for the U.S. And just recently this week his son, Don Jr., who was - has a great deal of influence with is father, reposted a meme this week mocking Zelenskyy, a man fighting for his country's survival, saying you're 38 days from losing your allowance. Doesn't this give us a clue about what to expect?

VOLKER: I don't know that we know exactly what that means. When I look at that, I think of it as taxpayer money, that is U.S. assistance going to Ukraine, which is what we've done for the past few years, as opposed to letting Ukraine borrow the funds that they need and then buy U.S. weaponry and use that to defend themselves, which is what we did for the U.K. during World War II, the so-called lend/lease program.

We had it on the books for two years in '22 and '23, but we never tapped into it. And I think that would make sense. That's a way to make sure it's not taxpayer money. But it's also a way to make sure that Ukraine is not going to lose. And to put enough capability on the table that Putin would recognize that.

SIDNER: Kurt Volker, thank you so much for talking through those comments with me. I appreciate your time this morning.

VOLKER: Thank you very much.

SIDNER: And now over to you, Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: We also have some breaking news coming in. The Supreme Court has just rejected a request by Donald Trump's former White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows. Now, this has to do with his ongoing effort to get his criminal case in Georgia moved out of state court into federal court.

CNN's Paula Reid has much more for us as this is just coming in.

And, Paula, what are you learning?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So, this is interesting. Here the Supreme Court has rejected Meadows' request to try to move his state-level criminal case in Georgia to federal court, where he had hoped to make some arguments related to immunity, to try to insulate himself from any criminal consequences.

Now, the Supreme Court is rejecting this, so Meadows' case will go back to Georgia. Now, last year he was charged on racketeering and other charges tied to phone calls and meetings he had with President- elect Trump, in Trump's alleged efforts to subvert the 2020 election. Of course, Trump and 18 of his associates were charged in this sprawling RICO case brought by District Attorney Fani Willis.

But the case is currently sort of in limbo as the judge overseeing this case contemplates whether Fani Willis should be disqualified because of her improper relationship with the special prosecutor who brought this case, Nathan Wade. Now, the judge will hear that case, the question of whether Fani Willis should be disqualified, on December 5th. And even if she is disqualified, it doesn't mean the case goes away, but it raises more questions about the viability of this prosecution when it comes to Trump's co-defendants.

But when we're talking specifically about the president-elect, it is not expected that he will face trial in Georgia if this case survives while he is a sitting president. It is really the only one of his cases that will survive. But it's unclear if he'll ever face trial in Georgia.

So, Mark Meadows, as of now, his case is going back to Georgia, and then we'll wait to see what the judge decides about whether Fani Willis will continue to oversee this case or if she will be disqualified. And the future of this case, for all of these defendants, really the ones who have not already entered pleas, Kate, still very uncertain.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. But this is one step and one answer, at least, in this long - in this long process.

It's good to see you, Paula. Thank you so much.

John.

BERMAN: All right, this morning, a White House snub.

[09:45:01]

Why Melania Trump, first lady-elect, although we don't actually call it that, is turning down an invitation to the White House from Dr. Jill Biden.

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BOLDUAN: It's a tradition that presidential historians say is healthy for democracy. The traditional of the outgoing president inviting the incoming president to meet at the White House. But not only that, but also a similar meet and greet tradition between first ladies. And this year that tradition may be broken, and not by Donald Trump. According to sources, Melania Trump is expected to turn down the White House invite from Jill Biden. Those sources saying that Mrs. Trump has a scheduling conflict related to her newly released memoir.

[09:50:05]

One source, though, adding that the decision has not yet been finalized.

Joining me right now is Kate Bennett. She is our former CNN White House correspondent, also the author of "Free, Melania: The Unauthorized Biography."

It's great to see you, Kate.

Let's start with this.

KATE BENNETT, COMMUNICATIONS STRATEGIST: Good to see you, too.

BOLDUAN: When - we don't know what is in Melania Trump's mind, or anyone's mind, of course, and what - what she's thinking in terms of going back to the White House. But when sources cite, after all of the reporting you have done about her, which is more than really anyone, when sources say that there's a scheduling conflict related to her memoir that's keeping her from accepting this invite, what do you think?

BENNETT: I mean, I think that's code for, no, thank you, a polite decline. You know, her memoir came out a few weeks ago. It's not as though she's on a book tour, you know, actively doing this.

Melania Trump and Jill Biden are very different women. And we all know how contentious this campaign was. But I do think, you know, having covered Melania, that she is strictly used to adhere to protocol. That was sort of her thing was tradition and sort of respecting the values of the role and all its traditional aspects. So, it is fairly surprising that this is not a meeting that she wants to do or is jumping at.

And listen, I also know, I covered Jill Biden too for a couple of years, I'm sure this was not an easy invitation for her to extend. But as you said, this is tradition.

Now, typically, it's a former first lady showing the incoming first lady the ropes, and here's the East Wing, and here's how the staff works, et cetera. And, of course, Melania Trump has already done that and been there. So, there's not that need for it, if you will. But it is a sign to the rest of the country that things are healed, our democracy is moving forward. You know, if these two women can do it, so can anyone. So, I think it's in really bad form if she doesn't show up to this invitation.

BOLDUAN: And I think you're hitting on why this is getting so much focus, because it's - she doesn't need a tour of the White House, but especially when we're talking about Donald Trump heading back to the White House, after how Donald Trump acted when he lost the election in 2020, and he was leaving the White House, which was breaking with all sorts of tradition.

BENNETT: Right.

BOLDUAN: This - there is a hyperfocus on the idea of the peaceful transfer of power, and ways you can show that. And you know - and Melania Trump and those around her must be aware of that.

BENNETT: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Is she sending a message here?

BENNETT: Yes, I mean, I think, for sure. I think - you know, she's a lot more like her husband than people think, right? They think she's sort of reluctant or tapping SOS on the window pane. But really she's very aligned with him. And she also has a long memory, like Jill Biden, for those who have harmed him or said bad things about him.

BOLDUAN: Right.

BENNETT: And I really think this is her way of saying, sorry, you know, this - this didn't turn out well. You don't - you and I don't just become fast friends.

Now, at the same time, she should remember, Michelle Obama didn't have the greatest relationship with the Trumps. She invited Melania Trump to the White House. Melania went. They had their tea. Last time, last election, Melania Trump didn't invite Jill Biden because her husband had - was still contesting the actual presidential election, so she couldn't very well go around him and say, come on over and see the East Wing.

But again, I think this is more Melania than Melania, you know, than most people would think. This is her personality. She is very protective of her husband. She wants to make sure that she's sending a message. Unfortunately, what I think the message is, is that, you know, when we should be healing and moving forward, this one's a little bit - a little bit harsh not to go to a tea in the East Wing.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Yes.

BENNETT: I think that's a little bit - yes, for -

BOLDUAN: And let's talk about - I mean she's heading back into the East Wing. She needs - she needs to be bringing in staff once again. And one thing we have seen in the - in the four years since they have left is, some of her closest aides have really broke - I mean, broken ranks is even like the light way of saying it. I mean Stephanie Grisham spoke at the DNC this summer.

BENNETT: Right.

BOLDUAN: I mean what are you hearing about her process of who she could choose to come back to the East Wing with her?

BENNETT: Well, she's had a couple of long-term staff members who went with her, sort of followed her to Palm Beach. But unlike most first ladies, she didn't really establish a robust post-White House office of Melania Trump with continued policies and an active, you know, full staff. So, she does have to staff up again. She has apparently been working with John Rogers, who's an executive at Goldman Sachs, who was an adviser during her first term, to help sort of vet some folks and think about what a second East Wing term looks like for her. This is somebody who knows Washington, who's with - involved with the White House Historical Association, which, of course, Melania Trump was very involved in, as she refurbished lots of items in the White House during her time there. So, I think she will have to figure out, who does she want around her?

[09:55:02]

And this is a woman, as you just said referencing Stephanie Grisham, who's a little bit wary about trusting staffers, always kept a very close, small circle for that very point and that very reason. So, it's going to be interesting to see who goes back inside the White House for her second go inside the East Wing.

BOLDUAN: For sure. It is great to see you, Kate. Thanks so much for being here.

BENNETT: So good to see you too.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

BENNETT: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: John.

BERMAN: We should invite Kate for tea, right?

BOLDUAN: I - oh, yes. I mean, Kate Bennett for everything is a yes.

BERMAN: Never reject an invitation for tea.

BOLDUAN: No.

BERMAN: This morning, world leaders getting creative in preparation for the new Trump administration. Not necessarily briefing books or policy refreshers. South Korea's president is taking up golf after an eight-year hiatus. Why? Well, because Donald Trump, he likes golf. Trump visited more courses than any recent president during his first term in office.

And you let him win. I mean you don't just take up golf. It's always good if you're -

BOLDUAN: Yes. You actually don't need to take it up, you just need to be bad at it.

SIDNER: Give him a mulligan and you're good.

BERMAN: Yes. Yes, exactly.

SIDNER: You're all good.

All right, thank you for joining us. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. I'm Sara Sidner, with John Berman and Kate Bolduan.

"CNN NEWSROOM," up next.

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