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Supreme Court Hears Tennessee Transgender Case; Hegseth's Mother Makes Appeal. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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TROOPER STEVE LIMANI, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: It's possible that a person could have survived with the temperature.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you're still on (ph) rescue then?

LIMANI: In my mind we're still -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

LIMANI: Until - until you tell - show me something that's different, that's how I feel about it.

There's been nothing that said that she is not alive or she could not possibly have survived. There's nothing that said 100 percent definitively couldn't have happened. And until that 100 percent happens, I don't know how - why would I - I - how could I say it's any other way?

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ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Kate, crews have been using monitoring equipment inside of the hole. No sounds were picked up. But crews were able to spot a shoe inside of that sinkhole.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: I think we're also showing live pictures right here in the wall. That is what the scene is like this morning. You can see the excavator right there working on that site.

Isabel, thank you so much.

The new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are standing by for arguments at the Supreme Court in what could be a landmark case on transgender rights.

Huge, new developments as Pentagon pick Pete Hegseth's nomination hangs in the balance. Donald Trump now talking to Florida Governor Ron DeSantis about the job, as Hegseth's own mother jumps in to try to salvage the situation.

And a Senate investigation uncovering new information about those extra airline fees that you are forced to pay.

Sara is out. I'm John Berman, with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BOLDUAN: All right, just about an hour from now, the Supreme Court is going to begin hearing arguments in a huge case, maybe the biggest case of the term. It's about transgender rights. At the center is a Tennessee law that bans gender affirming health care for children and teens. Twenty-six states in all have passed similar restrictions. You see them all throughout the country. Tennessee's version prohibits doctors from giving hormone therapy and puberty blockers to transgender minors. The Biden administration is arguing against the ban, saying it's unconstitutional. Lawyers for Tennessee argue the ban is constitutional because the law was a reasonable legislative response to contested medical evidence.

Let's get over to CNN's Paula Reid, who's kindly been standing by as I give some of the background on this case.

Paula, you also spoke with some of the people at the center of this case. Talk to me about what they say and what is at stake here.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, this is the biggest case of the Supreme Court term so far. Today the justices are going to consider whether minors have a constitutional right to certain medical care if they want to transition. And as you noted, we had one of the few interviews with a teen at the center of this case. We talked to her and her parents about what this Tennessee law meant for them.

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L. WILLIAMS, PLAINTIFF: I was born in a male body and I am a woman, and that's incredibly uncomfortable for me.

REID (voice over): Her parents, Brian and Samantha, had no idea.

SAMANTHA WILLIAMS, PLAINTIFF: I was surprised, but I was never - I was still like, from the very beginning, supportive. Like, OK, this is what's going on with you? We're there for it.

REID (voice over): And debated whether this was all just a phase.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, PLAINTIFF: I asked lots of questions. Had a lot of pushback. You know, asked probably a lot of the questions that people are - who are in opposition to this case are probably asking. You know, is this a phase? What does this mean?

REID (voice over): They got her a therapist and eventually started treatments when L was 13 years old.

L. WILLIAMS: It's been very helpful. Life-changing even. I - for some people it's even been life saving.

REID (voice over): The Tennessee ban forced doctors to stop treating transgender patients like L with treatments that included puberty blockers and hormone therapies.

S. WILLIAMS: It was just purely political. It was, let's use these poor kids and these families as a pawn. And, like, we just want to be able to take her to the doctor.

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REID (on camera): Now, we also spoke to a doctor who supports the state of Tennessee's ban. And he told us that he believes that minors just cannot give informed consent for this kind of treatment. He has no problem for adults that want to transition. But he believes when it comes to minors, there should be more of an emphasis on psychiatric care.

But I pressed him on what L told me about how this really changed her life, and he attributed a lot of that to the placebo effect. He said that he believes if you think that you need care and you receive care, that you're, of course, going to feel better. And that's part of why he's skeptical about these kinds of treatments.

Now, the justices will hear arguments in this case in a little under an hour. We don't know how long it's going to take them to reveal their opinion. But we do know that the incoming Trump administration is not supportive of this kind of care.

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But L and her parents tell me that even if they don't have federal support for their case, that their lawyers from the ACLU will continue to advocate for this kind of treatment.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, all getting underway in just a couple of hours. Thank you so much.

John.

BERMAN: Want to talk about the legal questions here. With us now, CNN's Supreme Court analyst Steve Vladeck, and Jeffrey Rosen, president and CEO of the National Constitution Center.

Steve, I want to read from the decision in 2020, Bostock versus Clayton County, written by conservative justice Neil Gorsuch, which did find that there were transgender rights, certain, in the workplace here. Gorsuch wrote, quote, "it is impossible to discriminate against a person for being homosexual or transgender without discriminating against that individual based on sex."

So, why are those words important to this case? And then, additionally, why then are you so focused on Justice Gorsuch today, Steve?

STEVE VLADECK, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Yes, John, I mean, those words really are the heart of this. You know, back in 2020, in that Bostock case, what the Supreme Court was doing was interpreting a federal statute. Title Seven of the Civil Rights Act, which Congress enacted in 1964.

You know, today what the court is doing is interpreting a less specific provision of the Constitution, part of the 14th Amendment that was adopted way back in 1868.

And, John, the question's going to be whether the Supreme Court, and especially someone like a Justice Neil Gorsuch, Chief Justice John Roberts, who is also in the majority in that Bostock case in 2020, are going to see these words and these concepts as meaning the same thing in the statute Congress wrote in 1964, as it means in the Constitution, or whether they're going to draw a distinction and say, Congress is allowed to prohibit more than the Constitution does because the constitution doesn't use quite the same terminology, because it was adopted at a different time, that was different. That, John, I think, is really the heart of the matter and why I think so many folks will be focused on Justice Gorsuch specifically in today's oral argument.

BERMAN: Professor Rosen, equal protection, heightened scrutiny. Two phrases I feel like we may hear a lot today. What do they mean and how do they pertain to this case?

JEFFREY ROSEN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NATIONAL CONSTITUTION CENTER: The Constitution protects the equal protection of the laws. The Supreme Court has said that certain characteristics, like race, get heightened scrutiny. That means you need a really good reason to discriminate on the basis of race.

When it comes to gender, the court has adopted something called intermediate scrutiny. You need a good reason, but slightly less strong than when it comes to race. The central question in this case is, is discrimination against transgender people discrimination on the basis of sex? And the Biden administration says, put simply, an adolescent assigned female at birth can't receive puberty blockers to live as a male, but an adolescent assigned male at birth can. And the counterargument from the respondent's brief is that there's no gender classification here. There are two groups, minors seeking drugs for gender transition and minors seeking drugs for other medical purposes. Either of these groups includes members of both sexes. So, that's the central question here. And if the court agrees with the Biden administration, it could find that discrimination against transgender people is entitled to heightened scrutiny. And you need a really good reason for any laws, not just the puberty blockers, but for sports teams and separate restrooms and all discrimination against transgender people.

By contrast, if the court rejects heightened scrutiny, it might say, well, just some medical evidence that this could be a good thing to block is OK, and we're going to uphold the law. So, that's the central question in the case.

BERMAN: And that's what we're listening for, particularly, again, I think with Justice Gorsuch, because how could he switch from, you know, discriminating against someone for being transgender is definitionally, in 2020, he said, discriminating against sex, to now saying something different. And what would be the stakes, Steve, here of ruling one way or the other?

VLADECK: I mean I think the stakes, John, are enormous. And I think, you know, Jeff was just explaining some of those stakes. You know, a holding from the Supreme Court that for constitutional purposes discrimination on the basis of transgender status is akin to discrimination on the basis of sex would overnight subject a whole bunch of state laws, local regulations, even federal laws to more exacting judicial scrutiny when they produce, when they discriminate against transgender individuals than they currently receive.

On the flip side, John, if the Supreme Court says, no, there's never a context in which a law that singles out transgender status is going to trigger this kind of heightened judicial scrutiny, that's going to have consequences in the other direction. We will see, I think, more states and perhaps even the federal government, once, you know, the new government comes into its office in January, taking more aggressive moves to restrict these kinds of medical treatments.

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It's why there's a lot riding on today's decision. It's why I think Paul is right, that this is so far easily the biggest case of the year. And I think it's why, you know, folks are so focused on the justices who are almost certainly going to be in the middle of this case, Neil Gorsuch, Chief Justice John Roberts, probably even Justice Amy Coney Barrett as well.

BERMAN: All right, we're going to be watching and listening to them very carefully, what they ask, how they ask it, how much the 2020 case comes up, how much Dobbs comes up. These are all things to pay attention to on your checklist over the next few hours.

Steve Vladeck, Jeffrey Rosen, thank you both very much.

So, what do you do when Donald Trump starts talking to Ron DeSantis about giving him your job? Moments ago, Pete Hegseth's mother jumped in to try to save the teetering nomination of her son to be Defense secretary.

Happening now, a woman who managed to pass multiple security checkpoints and stow away on a flight to Paris is on her way back to the United States, we think. We have an update on what is happening on board this time.

And, new reports of fear in the tech billionaire community. That rarified community there. Why Elon Musk business rivals are nervous about what he will do to them with all his new federal power.

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BOLDUAN: Breaking news just moments ago, Pete Hegseth arrived on Capitol Hill for critical meetings again with Republican senators. He also just posted on Twitter essentially that he is not backing down from his fight to be President-elect Donald Trump's next - well, press - Defense secretary.

And this is also after - there's a lot of movement on this, this morning. His mother was just on television last hour defending her son and saying he is a, quote, "changed man." Hegseth's mom made a direct appeal to Donald Trump in her appearance on Fox News. But we all know, as has been discussed and the reporting suggests, that Hegseth faces trouble right now. A rocky road to confirmation, to say the least. The road so rocky maybe that we learned last hour that the president-elect has actually spoken with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis about potentially replacing Hegseth for the job as being a candidate for - to head up the Pentagon. He is facing several allegations of - Hegseth, of drunken misbehavior, sexual misconduct and financial mismanagement of the veterans non-profit that he once ran.

Hegseth's mother speaking out now after making headlines this week when a 2018 email that she wrote to her son was published. The email in part said this, "on behalf of all of the women, and I know it's many, you have abused in some way, I say get some help and take an honest look at yourself."

That was then. Here is her message now.

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PENELOPE HEGSETH, PETE HEGSETH'S MOTHER: Pete is a new person. He's redeemed, forgiven, changed. I think we all are after seven years. I believe he's the man for the job.

I know Pete. And the people who know us know Pete. And Trump knows Pete. And he knows the Pete of today. And he knows the Pete who is a good father, a good husband to Jen. He's got seven kids. He's a wonderful son. Wonderful son. And a wonderful son to his brothers and all his friends. He's a changed man. And I just hope people will - will get to know who Pete is today, especially our dear female senators, that you would listen to him, listen with your heart to the truth of Pete.

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BOLDUAN: With me now to discuss the path to confirmation or not, Democratic strategist Matt Bennett. Lee Carter is also here, strategic communications expert.

It's great to see you guys. Thanks for being here.

And, Lee, you have known Pete Hegseth for quite some time.

LEE CARTER, STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Yes.

BOLDUAN: The appearance from his mom, hearing from Penelope there this morning, do you think it fixes the trouble that his confirmation is facing?

CARTER: I don't know if it fixes it, but it certainly helps. I mean it dimensionalizes what's happening. You - I mean there is no question what happened in his previous marriage and where he is today. And I'm sure there are rocky roads behind the scenes.

Pete Hegseth that I know is a man who is a delight to work with. I have never smelled alcohol on his breath. I have traveled with him to debates. I have traveled with him to primary states. I have traveled with him and the "Fox and Friends" team all over, and I've never seen any of the behavior that we're talking about.

There's a - there's certainly things that he did in his past. And there's things that we've all done in our past. But I think we need to ask ourselves in this moment, what do we want to be doing when we have real questions about - about the - and invalid questions, frankly, about the people that are - that are up for the cabinet.

People are concerned about his experience. Let's leave the rest off the table. I mean it is just - politics is a blood sport at this point. And you can understand why really good people don't want to do it when you look at what's happened here.

Let's focus on what really matters. Is he qualified for the job? What happened with his previous marriage, what happened in his private life, all of that is off the table. What is on the table, and I think what we should be talking about, is, is he the right person for this job.

BOLDUAN: You - I hear you, but it is all on the table. That is the politics - the reality of the politics today. And that is some of what are the real questions that we know we've heard from Republican senators like Joni Ernst. They want - they have questions that they want answered.

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And that is part of the process. That is where these questions and this vetting does take place.

And to that, Matt, he's back on The Hill meeting with these key senators. And Joni Ernst is really seen as key. She is a veteran. She is a survivor of sexual assault herself. She is well respected in all corners. And - which is why - and I'll read for you a quote that - from a source in the Trump transition, speaking to Jake Tapper, said this. "If she isn't," if she, Joni, "isn't comfortable with Pete and he doesn't answer her questions about women in the military and about sexual assault, if she doesn't leave the meeting supporting him, there are five or six Republican senators who will oppose his nomination."

Hegseth tweeted he's not backing down, though, Matt. How do you think this goes?

MATT BENNETT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I think he's going down because I think this is not a question of politics as blood sport, this is a question of whether this guy can perform the incredibly important duties of secretary of Defense. Remember, the secretary of Defense is in the chain of command, which is to say, if we are going to attack someone, the president gives the order to the secretary of Defense, that could come at any time, day or night, as it often does, and that - and he or she sends that down the chain. And if that person cannot be trusted to be, you know, within their - their right mind, this guy is a drunk. It's very clear. It's been reported many places that he was drunk in his capacities at the non-profits he worked at and - and it -

BOLDUAN: I - I - I just - you can describe it one way, Matt, but, I mean - I mean, I - the way I would described it, it was slightly - I guess everyone's definition of a drunk can be different. I don't know if that's something we can - we need to debate here, but continue.

BENNETT: Fair enough. Whether you call him an alcoholic or not, he clearly, on the job, or socializing with his office mates, drank a lot. There's reporting on CNN that he showed up for work at Fox smelling of alcohol, which means, even if he was sober when he arrived at work, he was not sober during the evening. If this guy can't be trusted to perform the duties of secretary of Defense any time, day or night, he can't do the job.

CARTER: But -

BENNETT: And he's not qualified. He's never run anything. The Pentagon is an enormous operation. There's 2 million Americans under arms. It's $1 trillion a year. He simply isn't the right person for the job.

CARTER: I will tell you that I think the biggest mistake that people that are posing Pete Hegseth are making is - is that they're not focused on the right things. This is an all-hands attack. We're focusing on - on whether or not he drank. We're focusing on whether or not - what he - what he did out in extracurricular activities.

The point that you're making about, is he qualified for the job, can he lead, does he have the experience to lead an organization of this size, that is valid. That's what we should be talking about. The rest of this, it's hearsay. There are anonymous sources. Every one - every one of his co-hosts, and if you look at everything that's come out and said that this is not true. Talk to the makeup artist who did his makeup every day, who would smell the alcohol on his breath, and they will tell you, this is not true. And so, I think we're talking about the wrong thing.

Yes, you have an absolute valid concern about whether or not he is the right person for this job. But by talking about whether or not he's a drunk and calling him that kind of thing, you're taking your eyes off the prize. And I think you're making the whole thing ineffective.

And I honestly think that the Democrats are doing more damage by doing this kind of thing than focusing on the real question, which everybody rightfully has, is he the right person for the job? Is he qualified, not based on the hearsay kind of attacks, but on the real things? Has he managed enough people to be able to do this job? Is he the right person for this job? Those are good questions. The rest of it, I find it offensive and wrong.

BOLDUAN: Can I - I want to just ask one thing to you guys really quickly, which is, no matter the public discussion outside, one of the - the key is, is - which is the unknown, is what is the view of Donald Trump on the inside of the transition of how this is playing out? The insight that we have today is that we have reporting from CNN's Steve Contorno that Trump has been a - has spoken to - a source says that Trump has spoken to Ron DeSantis about the possibility of taking this job. That Ron DeSantis has said that he is open, if offered, to taking the job.

I just - that, to me, that's what - that's where like my big question remains right now is, what does - where does the pressure stand in terms of the appetite for Donald Trump to put up with this kind of, we'll call it smoke, you know, around him much longer.

Lee, what do you think?

CARTER: Well, look, I think if - if - the president has to be prepared for anything that happens. So, I'm not surprised that he's having conversations.

BOLDUAN: Right.

CARTER: I mean, if you even look at the betting markets right now, the betting markets have said that it's less likely, you know, than ever that Pete Hegseth gets confirmed. So, he can't be caught flat footed.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

CARTER: But there is no sign that the administration is backing down from their support of him.

Now, you heard in the days when Gaetz, you know, Matt Gaetz was - was going up, there was absolute silence from the administration. You didn't hear any support. You didn't - you knew that there was something going on.

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As yet - you know, last night, Donald Trump Jr. was writing about his support of Pete Hegseth.

BOLDUAN: J.D. Vance just wrote a tweet in support of him, too.

CARTER: And so I - I don't see that they are backing down.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

CARTER: But I think, you know, they've got to be prepared and you got to - if the votes aren't there, the votes aren't there, and they've got to have a qualified candidate.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

CARTER: And it looks like they're ready to move quickly. But I don't see any sign that - that Donald Trump's support Pete Hegseth is breaking.

BOLDUAN: One thing I can say with, well, I'll say certainty and then I'll - and then I'll have, you know, pie in my face is, by the end of today there should be some clearer view on the - where the path is headed, only because there's a lot happening in this and something's got to give, it seems.

Matt, it's good to see you, as always. Thanks for coming in.

Lee, thank you.

CARTER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: So, we also are following breaking news that is just coming in, and we're gathering the details here of the CEO of United Healthcare, Brian Thompson, we've learned, has been fatally shot outside a hotel in midtown Manhattan. Investigators say that they're currently searching for a gunman. We're gathering more details and getting our teams moving on this. We're going to have much more after a break.

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