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Syrian Rebels Take City of Hama; Gunman Writes Words "Delay" and "Depose" On Bullet Casings Used in Attack on Health Care CEO Brian Thompson; Defense Secretary Nominee Pete Hegseth Facing Headwinds in Securing Senate Confirmation. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 05, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The rebels have made massive gains and it doesn't seem that the regime of Bashar al-Assad is really able to stop this rebel advance. This is a city that historically is very important because back in 1982, the father of Bashar al-Assad, under his regime, there was a massacre of more than 10,000 people in the city of Hama. Hama has never been under rebel control. And certainly, this is a real body blow for a regime that many thought had survived, so far, this civil war. Kate?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it's proving not so much. Ben, thank you so much as always.

A new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we are getting new information just in on the killing of a health care CEO here in New York. The words very much written on the shell casings found at the scene. A new twist from police as the manhunt reaches a fever pitch.

Pete Hegseth vows to stop drinking if he is confirmed as defense secretary. Will those words have the impact he hopes they will, as we're getting new reporting on where his nomination stands this morning.

And maybe not so prime. Paying for two-day delivery, sometimes overnight delivery on Amazon, but never getting it. A new lawsuit.

Sara is out today. I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

All right, we want to get to the very latest reporting on the manhunt for a killer here in New York. And there is new information just in on the search for this person who killed health care CEO Brian Thompson 24 hours ago. Words very much written on shell casings of rounds found at the scene. There had been some confusion in some places about that. Law enforcement sources tell CNN that two words were found, "delay" and "deposed." "Deposed" was written on a shell casing from a round that was fired at the victim. Delay was written on a live round not fired but ejected when the shooter appeared to be clearing a jam.

There are images of the suspect at Starbucks also leaving a subway station. Police also have video obtained by "The New York Times" of him talking on a phone just minutes before the murder. This, as Thompson's widow now reveals to NBC, quote, "I don't know details. I just know that he said there were some people that had been threatening him."

But let's get to the shell casing and the words written on them. With us now, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller. You've got new information, and also, I think a new visual representation of what we're talking about.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, sure. So "depose" is written on a round that was fired. So that's a shell casing that's found on the ground, and they find these tiny letters on it. "Delay" is found on a live round. That's a full bullet that he probably ejected trying to clear that jam. Those are the two words they found. But investigators doing research into what could this mean, "delay," "depose," found the maxim of deny, delay, depose, variations of the maxim deny, delay, defend, which is actually the name of a book. These are sayings, and you can find them all over the Internet and reddit and other postings about insurance company practices of trying to find ways out of paying on claims that they are disputing.

So what they believe is the killer was sending a message. Now this is a nine-millimeter round. This is the shell casing, the silver part, the copper part is the actual bullet. And to write something on something this small, and I mean, John, picture how you would try to do that. Would you take a fine point sharpie? Would you try to scratch it in? It means someone went to a lot of trouble to try and create this message that would be left at the scene.

Now he's missing the third word. So if this is the maxim he's trying to tell us about, is that bullet still in the magazine remaining unfired that left with his getaway? Is it on one of the other shell casings but it burned off as it was fired and ejected? We don't know that yet.

BERMAN: Yes, but two of the three, and as you say, would require just a very high level of deliberateness here. So what does that tell investigators as they are very much engaged in this manhunt, 25, 26 hours later?

MILLER: Well, it tells them -- it gives them an answer and raises a question. The answer it gives them is you have a killer who is trying to send a message. The question is, what does the message really mean? What you can glean from it, if the target was carefully selected, the head of a major health care insurance entity is, is it directed at UnitedHealthcare? Is it directed at that CEO? Or is this a killer who is targeting the insurance industry, which has caused everybody from hospital executives to insurance providers yesterday to start doubling and tripling the security around their top people?

[08:05:11]

BERMAN: Yes, I was going to ask that, because if you have someone trying to send a message out there on the loose, which clearly they do. I mean, if you're going to write something on a shell casing, you are trying to send a message there. You then have to take next steps to try to figure out how to protect people.

MILLER: Well, that's right. And my phone was ringing yesterday from heads of security and from security companies saying, what do we think about the targeting in this case? Do executives have to worry? Where can we get the kind of increased security details and close personal protection until we have a better understanding of this? Those wheels started turning yesterday morning. They're turning faster today.

BERMAN: All right, these developments keep on happening at a furious pace. John Miller, we're lucky to have you here. Please keep us posted throughout the next hour.

MILLER: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: Kate?

BOLDUAN: And joining us right now is former U.S. Marshal John Muffler and former Boston police commissioner Ed Davis. Ed, let's start where John and John -- John and John -- just left off, talking about the question of personal security. Some detail that we got from UnitedHealthcare was that UnitedHealthcare was aware of threats to top executives. Brian Thompson was never named specifically, but a source familiar with the company's security does tell CNN the leadership team at UnitedHealth Group is supported by an in-house security team, including at the New York conference. But Thompson's security detail was not with him yesterday morning. What does that mean? What does that add into this?

ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, it's very troubling. The provision of security personnel is really a risk and compliance question. Each of these corporations has a compliance and risk department. They should be having these conversations. And if he does have a security function, he either said I don't need it in New York. It's expensive to have a team travel with you and put them up. So sometimes executives say, I'll have a detail at my house, but I'm not going to have any protection while I'm traveling, because they live under the false assumption that nobody understands where they are.

But this is a public meeting, a publicly advertised meeting, location and time. Everyone knows that he will be there. It's a very simple equation. For someone stalking someone online and doing research to put together that this could be a good place, and notwithstanding the cameras, it's a very easy task to find them, and then to do whatever it is that you want to do with them.

BOLDUAN: And, John, how does this manhunt shift now as we are past, as we passed the 24 hour mark since this guy's been on the run?

JOHN MUFFLER, FORMER U.S. MARSHAL: Well, I think they have great leads. I'd imagine at the next presser, they'll be more information. Clearly, they have, clearly, they have a list of clues that they're running on and are aware of the direction he traveled and the way he did it. My assumption is that he was there a day or so if not longer in advance conducting pre-attack surveillance. So it would be good time for NYPD to look at those cameras in that location. There could be a time where he wasn't wearing a mask on the day of the shooting. So I think there's some good clues there. I think there's some understanding of a warning behavior typologies that he's exhibited, like fixation, pathway to violence that they can run on and look at as clues to where he may be and where he may go, may be going.

BOLDUAN: I want you both also to weigh in on what John Miller was just reporting about the fact that law enforcement sources tell CNN the two words that were found on shell casings, on shell casings, "delay" and "depose." "Depose" written on a shell casing from a round that was fired into the victim, "delay" written on a live round that was not fired but believed to be ejected when the shooter, he appeared to be clearing a jam. And those words are really all over the Internet from people angry at the health care industry. Blogs, articles, and various combination, using these words as critical of the health care industry.

John, what do you do with this? How do you help this try to narrow your search for who you could be looking for?

MUFFLER: Well, obviously, I mean, there's just two words that they found. And I agree with John Miller that very likely there are other words in that magazine, but it's an indication, again, of that behavior leading up to the attack. And there's some giveaways there. So I think, again, looking at that type of leakage of the words he's using, many of school shooting attacks and other workplace violence attacks, there's leakage, meaning that others in that person's environment are aware of such terminologies.

[08:10:06]

And those people who are watching CNN and other news media, they see that face, hear those words, they can be like, oh, he did make a post. I knew a guy made a post, or a family member, a loved one. So I think those are going to help those in that person's life maybe report to law enforcement those pre clues.

BOLDUAN: That is interesting. Ed, what do you think of that?

DAVIS: Well, John's exactly right. It's a great clue. And if someone has heard him use those words before and sees that picture, especially of his face in the Starbucks, they would be able to put two and two together and get in touch with law enforcement, hopefully.

But the other thing is you have to also think about the fact that he may have been leaving more of a message. I think it's unusual that someone that well prepared and effective inadvertently dropped his cell phone at the scene. It sometimes takes a day or two to get into those phones. I'm wondering what messaging is on that cell phone. Is someone trying to explain themselves in a burner phone that might have one or two pages of information on it? That's something we have to look out for.

But we also have to keep in mind that this could be a feint. It could be purposely putting detectives off the track of the real motive. So you have to keep all options open in these cases.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely right. John, do you assume he is no longer in Manhattan or do you have to or do you think he's more likely still in Manhattan?

MUFFLER: These are great questions. Tracking fugitives, these can last days to months. And so it's really hard to tell at this point. I am very interested in looking at his travel out to Central Park on that bike that was GPS coordinated. And again, he's going to have pre- attack surveillance fingerprints, again, indicating where he may be now, that he may be held up somewhere to let this cool down. And then try to leave New York City, or maybe he's already exited New York city. But those are some really good clues for NYPD to track on. So who knows at this point? Who knows?

BOLDUAN: Thank you both so much, as always. It's great to see you, John. Great to see you as well.

John?

BERMAN: All right, new reports of Donald Trump's pick to be defense secretary Pete Hegseth drinking at questionable moments, this time stale beer at FOX before 10:00 a.m.

Then going after Amazon, why prime delivery may not mean prime delivery.

And new reporting that the season for NFL quarterback Trevor Lawrence is likely over. We've got answers to your questions about concussions in football and in everyday life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:29]

BOLDUAN: President-elect Donald Trump's pick for Defense secretary is heading back to Capitol Hill again today, continuing on his full-on blitz.

Pete Hegseth is fighting to save his nomination and trying to calm Republican concerns about his qualifications and allegations from his past.

Among allegations that Hegseth denies is that he was known to drink excessively. New reporting from "The Washington Post" cites former Fox News employees who say they witnessed it, saying they saw him "drinking on the job or visibly drunk at work events."

These revelations leading to Hegseth facing blunt questions from senators in closed-door meetings already according to a Trump transition source questions like -- are you an alcoholic? Are you a womanizer? Did you embezzle money?

CNN's Kristen Holmes is in West Palm Beach for us. Quite the question to be facing when you're trying to lock in support for a Cabinet position. How is Hegseth responding to this and what are you hearing from inside the transition?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and Kate, he is saying that he is going to fight like hell. I am hearing from the transition that Donald Trump still supports Hegseth. He is still standing by his side. He doesn't believe that there are enough hard nos in the Senate yet to have that conversation with Hegseth.

Remember, one of the things that we paid attention to, the reason he ended up calling Matt Gaetz, who is up for attorney general and essentially telling him he didn't have the votes, was because he was having conversations with senators who were telling them it was a hard no. He didn't want to waste the political capital.

As of right now, Donald Trump believes there is still a pathway for Hegseth, and were told he's going to stand by him while that pathway exists.

Now, as you mentioned, it is a rough starting point when you're meeting these senators for the first time and they are asking -- if you are an alcoholic, if you are a womanizer -- particularly after what we have seen is this drip, drip of news reports and allegations from his past that do involve these kinds of damning allegations when it comes to being drunk at work events or drinking too excessively.

Now, Pete Hegseth was on Megyn Kelly yesterday addressing this issue. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, US DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE: First of all, I've never had a drinking problem. I don't -- never, no one's ever approached me and said, oh you should really look at getting help for a drink, never. I've never sought counseling, never sought help. I respect and appreciate people who do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now, Kate, it is notable just that Hegseth was on television doing this interview. It wasn't just him, it was actually his mother as well who sat down on Fox News. The reason why this is so notable is that Donald Trump's team has largely kept all of these Cabinet appointees, all of these administration appointees off of the airwaves. They don't want them to make any mistakes before those confirmation hearings, but clearly they want Hegseth out there and fighting. And that's what you saw yesterday.

We'll obviously keep an eye on how those meetings today goes. He has so far five meetings with senators on his dance card. Again, we expect more questions about these allegations -- Kate.

[08:20:27]

BOLDUAN: Kristen, the question, does end up becoming how long is too long for this to stretch on? Is it clear to you, if and when that would kind of hit that, I'll call it the Matt Gaetz point where it all just -- there is just too much surrounding him for Donald Trump to continue to have an appetite to support it?

HOLMES: From what I'm hearing, that this all comes down to the actual math. It's not necessarily about too much to support it. It's how much comes out that impacts these votes in the Senate and then how much political capital that Donald Trump wants to actually use.

It became very clear very quickly with Matt Gaetz that these hard nos were not going to shift. There was a line that these senators weren't going to cross, and that he would have to expend all of his political capital on Matt Gaetz when there were several other picks who might be a little bit less controversial, but he would also still need to step in for. He decided that that was too heavy of a lift.

Right now, what I'm being told is because of these behind-the-scenes conversations that these transition members are having, that the vice president-elect is having with these various senators they still believe that there is a pathway for Hegseth. Of course, all of this could change if there's more information that comes out, how this plays out.

But right now, if you're looking at the math, as long as they think there is a pathway, Donald Trump has said he's going to stand by him.

BOLDUAN: Kristen Holmes, thank you so much, Kristen -- John.

BERMAN: All right, also going on Capitol Hill today, Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy to talk about their plans to slash government spending. Let's get to Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill. What's the expectation there today on this?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, this is something that Republicans are excited about on Capitol Hill. This is an issue that a lot of them have been talking about for years. Now, actually executing extreme cuts to government spending, that is something that is much harder to do. And that is because every member of Congress has sort of their own idea of what is sacred when it comes to the federal budget.

So, were going to be watching really closely today to see how those conversations go. I mean, mostly they're going to be meeting with people who are already open to many of the ideas they are floating. It is also, again, a blockbuster day on the Hill because of these ongoing meetings with people like Pete Hegseth.

We saw yesterday, as Kristen was pointing out just a few minutes ago that these meetings on Capitol Hill were really sort of twofold. One, senators wanted answers about Hegseth's past and some of the questions that have arisen about his private actions. They also were trying to educate him and his team about how grueling this process is going to be.

We are still likely weeks, if not months away from a final vote on someone like Pete Hegseth. And right now, you know, they are having conversations about just so you know, this is the kind of question that is going to come up in a confirmation hearing. One of the people I talked to yesterday, Kevin Cramer, who sat down with Hegseth after that meeting, said that he told Hegseth directly, I am one of the nicer members on this committee you are going to be facing really hard questions in a public setting, just sort of level setting and preparing Hegseth for what's to come -- John.

BERMAN: It's an interesting way to put it. Lauren Fox, with new reporting on Capitol Hill. Lauren, great to see you. Thank you very much.

So, what happens when those deliveries that are supposed to be speedy are not so speedy? Lawsuits -- Hi, Lauren, bye Lauren -- against Amazon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:14]

BOLDUAN: Amazon facing a new lawsuit right now. The attorney general of DC now accusing the company of secretly stopping its fastest delivery option in two predominantly Black neighborhoods, saying Prime customers in two majority Black zip codes wait longer for packages than their neighbors. CNN's Matt Egan has much more on what this lawsuit now means, talk to me.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Kate, imagine finding out that for the past two years, many of your neighbors have been getting significantly faster deliveries from Amazon and that this wasn't an accident. That's the allegation here from this new lawsuit from the Washington, DC attorney general, which says that two years ago, Amazon secretly decided to exclude two predominantly Black, predominantly low income zip codes in Washington, DC from their fast Amazon Prime deliveries.

And that this essentially was duping 48,000 residents into paying for that faster delivery service that they actually weren't getting. And also, putting forth misleading advertising about deliveries.

So, instead of using those Amazon branded vehicles that we've all become accustomed to seeing, Amazon essentially was using the Postal Service and UPS and the lawsuit found that there was a dramatic impact, as you would imagine, on delivery speeds, right, that in those two zip codes, they were excluded they were getting their deliveries, their Prime deliveries within two days, just 24 percent.

When you compare that to the rest of DC, 75 percent of the deliveries in the rest of DC were arriving within two days. And here's the kicker, the Washington, DC attorney general's office says that the company was not upfront when customers complained about this, that Amazon "concealed" the exclusion and misled the consumers to believe it was a coincidence.

And now the attorney general, they want Amazon to stop what they're describing as unfair and deceptive practices, pay fines and refund customers.

BOLDUAN: And so, it's a serious allegation that that they're throwing at Amazon. What is Amazon saying?

EGAN: Well, Amazon is categorically denying these allegations that they've been discriminatory or deceptive. But what's interesting is that Amazon is not denying that they have shifted their delivery options in those zip codes. What they're doing is they're --

BOLDUAN: So, it's like denying the motive, not that it's happening.

[08:30:40]