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NYPD: Person of Interest Believed to have Left New York City After Shooting; Jury Deadlocked, Prosecutors Move to Dismiss One Charge Against Daniel Penny; Taylor Swift Plays Final Tour Dates This Weekend in Vancouver. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired December 06, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: ... 10 days or so here before committing this horrific crime and now again it appears that he has left the same way he came via a bus. Again the chief they're telling me that this was really well planned, this was targeted and that the suspect here really did a lot of work and preparation before he came to New York City to commit this murder.

The other thing I want to stress about is the photo that police released of the man at the hostel, that man police believe is the same man that they are looking for in connection with the murder. They believe that is the same individual who shot the CEO. The other thing that's important they say is that if you look in that photo from the hostel he's wearing different clothing. They believe based on what they can see there he is wearing different clothing. Again obviously it all goes to the preparation here.

And the other thing is the NYPD wants to stress is just the dozens and hundreds perhaps of detectives that are now working on this case that literally one detective could sit in front of a monitor and watch videotape, the CCTVs that are all over New York City for hours and hours for just an eight-second clip to try and locate the suspect. They say they're not using AI technology. I know there's a lot of questions about that. They say they're not.

So it's painstaking work really for these detectives to look through this video. And they also say the commissioner there told me there was a lot of evidence, the forensic evidence that they've recovered, the cell phone that they've recovered. She didn't want to get into specifically what they've recovered in terms of a fingerprint, DNA but it's certainly going to help them when eventually they catch the suspect for a criminal prosecution.

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN HOST: So much news in that interview Shimon Prokupecz. Thank you so much for bringing that to us. We'll come back to you again.

A lot to discuss on this case. We're going to take a quick break and talk more about it on the other side. Stay with us.

[15:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Let's go back to our breaking news out of New York. Moments ago, our own Shimon Prokupecz sat down with the NYPD commissioner and the chief of detectives who's leading this investigation about the manhunt for the gunman suspected of killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. They said that they have reason to believe the person of interest left the city shortly after the shooting, riding away on a bike, then hailing a taxi before finally being seen entering the Port Authority bus terminal in Upper Manhattan.

TAUSCHE: They also told CNN they are still searching for the suspect's backpack, which he apparently got rid of somewhere in Central Park. And they said the suspect appeared to know when his victim would be walking to the conference on the morning of the shooting.

I want to bring in Steve Moore. He's a retired FBI supervisory special agent. Steve, what happens now that they believe he's left the city? We just heard them say that's the reason why they published the photos of the suspect so early in this process to try to get a wider audience there.

What do you think the results of that will be?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I hope the results are going to be positive. The photographs are fairly distinctive, fairly detailed. And I think somebody who knows this person would recognize him in those photographs.

The problem is you don't know where to aim that photograph. You know, if he's from Atlanta, you aim it obviously at Atlanta, you blanket it there. But between New York and Atlanta, there's a lot of stops a bus makes.

So they're really kind of in a bind here trying to figure out where he went. Of course, if they later on determine exactly which bus and what ticket he purchased, it's going to be a little easier. But these photographs are very distinctive.

KEILAR: Yes, it's so tricky because that bus did come in from Atlanta, but they don't know where he got on it. So they're trying to figure that out at this point in time. Can you talk, Steve, a little bit about the search for the backpack?

Because you heard these NYPD officials saying they've got manpower and they've got drones, but they're searching, it sounds like, a wide swathe, if not the entire -- entirety of Central Park for it.

MOORE: Right. And what they'll do is they'll measure the time from when he entered the park until the time he exited the park. Then determine if he had to have taken a direct route or whether he had time to loiter around and look for a hiding place for the backpack.

So, you know, you've got two pieces of information there that will help the search or at least inform the search. And, you know, the FBI and law enforcement have had massive success in these grid searches where we just walk along fingertip to fingertip and take out, you know, football field sized chunks of area where you're not going to miss anything. And that's what they're doing.

The issue now becomes he -- this park wasn't searched for hours and hours after the attack. So it's possible somebody just found it and picked it up and went away with it. And that really causes a problem.

You're going to have to try and determine, you know, they'll even interview homeless people who work or who live around the park and see if they know any information about who might have found a backpack. There's a lot of things that could have happened to it.

[15:40:00]

TAUSCHE: Steve, you know, we have this one lethal suspect still at large, but then there's also been the vigorous debate over the practices of the health insurance industry that's been sparked by this -- by this killing. And I'm wondering what you see is the risk of a potential copycat attack.

MOORE: Well, I think once you put it in somebody's mind that this is a possibility and so far the guy seems to have gotten away with it, it's certainly going to put a spark in somebody's mind. I mean, 20 years ago or 30 years ago, we weren't dealing with school shootings, but we know now that most of them are motivated by other school shootings. And so this becomes a real problem.

And from what I've been hearing, security companies who provide executive security are having their phones ringing off the hook now. And it's not just healthcare, it's airlines, it's any -- it's any company that interacts with somebody in a way that can cause serious, serious emotional problems if things go wrong.

KEILAR: Yes, it's a good point. Steve Moore, thank you so much for your insights. We do appreciate it.

And we're going to have much more on Shimon's interview with the NYPD, including the commissioner of the police department on "THE LEAD" at the top of the hour.

Ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, the new details that we're learning from actor Jamie Foxx about a health scare that he says brought him within an inch of his life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: We do have more breaking news. Prosecutors moving to dismiss the top count of second-degree manslaughter against Daniel Penny after the jury said they were deadlocked twice on the charge. This, of course, is that case involving the death of Jordan Neely on a subway car after Penny put him in a headlock.

[15:45:04]

TAUSCHE: CNN's Gloria Pazmino is outside the courthouse. Gloria, what can you tell us? GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're at a crossroads right now, and we are waiting to hear whether or not Judge Wiley will agree to dismiss that top charge. The prosecutors have said that they would like to do that now that they know that the jury has been hung on the first charge. The manslaughter charge twice now.

They are saying we are willing to do away with the first charge, manslaughter in the second degree. Remember, in order for this jury to reach a verdict, they have to rule on that first charge before they can even begin talking about the second charge. But the judge has not made a decision.

Now, it's very important to highlight that while this discussion is happening, the defense has been opposed. They're saying that the jury cannot dismiss the charge because it will be coercive to the jury. They're saying that this should be a mistrial.

They have called for a mistrial multiple times throughout this trial. But now that we are in the face of deliberations, and this jury has said twice now that it cannot get to an agreement on the first charge, Tom Kenniff, the lead attorney for Daniel Penny, is asking the jury, the judge, to declare a mistrial.

They are going over the case law. Judge Wiley is looking closely at the proposal by the prosecution. But this is a very interesting development, and it just gives you an idea of how difficult it is, but also what these jurors might be talking about inside that courtroom. We know that they have asked for the definition of recklessness, the definition of what it is to be a reasonable person.

They have asked to review video evidence. They have asked what it means to be charged with criminal negligence. This was part of the instructions that they received when they began deliberating this Monday.

So it hasn't been that long, but it is Friday. There may be some people in there who want to go home and not come back here on Monday morning, but it's unclear to me as of this moment whether or not that is going to happen.

Now, there is something that we can sort of interpret here from the prosecution's willingness to dismiss that first charge. They might be looking at this and saying to themselves, we may be only able to get a conviction on the lesser charge. And that's the only way they can sort of get a win on this case. So maybe that is why they are willing to let the first charge go.

But you have to worry about how that could play with a jury who might hear we're letting the first charge go. They might think, well, why are we even here in the first place? So it's a really difficult position to be in.

And the big question right now is whether or not Judge Wiley is going to allow the dismissal of the first charge. We're getting closer to the end of the day now. So he's either going to have to tell this jury you're going to have to come back here on Monday or he's going to have to make a decision on whether or not there is case law that allows him to dismiss that first charge or if he needs to give a real consideration to what the defense is asking for, which is a mistrial.

Just hours ago, he told them it wasn't time for that yet. So we'll see if this jury is going to go home for the weekend and not come back here next week or if they'll be back here first thing Monday morning to continue deliberating on a case they seem to be not getting to an agreement on -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, we'll see if the judge thinks maybe they just need a break. Gloria Pazmino, thank you so much. We'll have more on this and other news when we come back.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: We do have some breaking news. The judge has just made a decision. This is back to the Penny Subway chokehold trial, I should mention.

But the judge has just made a decision on the prosecution's motion to dismiss the first charge when it comes to Daniel Penny. The jury has been deadlocked twice now.

TAUSCHE: We were just speaking with CNN's Gloria Pazmino. She has new news outside the courthouse. Gloria, what's the update?

PAZMINO: Yes, we heard that this motion was going to be approved just in the last minute since we went to break. Judge Wiley now granting the motion to dismiss the first count of manslaughter in the second degree. What this means in simplest terms is that Daniel Penny, who was looking at 15 years in prison, if convicted, is now looking at a maximum of four on the second charge, the criminally negligent charge.

That's what he is facing now. The 15-year possibility is out the window after this jury has said twice now throughout today that they cannot get to an agreement. Now, the defense has motioned for a mistrial multiple times now, but the judge has not granted that motion.

And we have also just learned that not only is he going to allow to dismiss the first charge, he's going to have them back here on Monday. So this is not over yet. Even though the defense has objected to the fact that they are allowing the first charge to be dismissed. Judge Wiley is telling them he will bring back the jury on Monday for them to continue deliberating on that second charge.

KEILAR: All right, Gloria Pazmino, thank you so much. Big developments today in this case of Daniel Penny. We'll have more news when we come back.

[15:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEILAR: It is the end of the Eras. After more than 150 dates in 21 countries across 5 continents, Taylor Swift will wrap the iconic Eras tour Sunday night in Vancouver. And it's been estimated that this tour made more than $2 billion.

TAUSCHE: Joining us now, the hosts of The Ringers' every single album podcast, Nora Princiotti and Nathan Hubbard. Nora, it's hard to imagine other artists matching the scale of the Eras tour anytime soon. But what do you think is the legacy from this tour?

NORA PRINCIOTTI, CO-HOST, THE RINGER'S "EVERY SINGLE ALBUM" PODCAST: Yes, well, I think you're smart to talk about other artists who could match this type of cultural resonance. I think, you know, now we know that Taylor is on the level with The Beatles, with Sinatra, with Elvis.

Nathan and I would say we've known this for a long time. But I think post-Eras tour, that's sort of common knowledge in a way that it wasn't ever.

KEILAR: Yes, it sure is. And that's the thing, Nathan, is the show lasted two years and then you had demand increasing rather than waning. It's like people can't get enough even after all that time.

What was it about her show that created that dynamic? And also tell us how many you went to, to base your opinion on.

NATHAN HUBBARD CO-HOST, THE RINGER'S "EVERY SINGLE ALBUM" PODCAST: I'm a little embarrassed to tell you that I went to seven shows at least. I saw it in London. I saw it in L.A. I saw it in Las Vegas. My girls made a cameo in the Eras tour film. So I have a lot to base it on.

But to me, it was this monocultural moment at a time of a lot of division around the world and in this country. It was just this safe haven of a place where people could go and just be together in community with 70,000 of their best friends every single night.

That to me is really what the lasting legacy and impact of this is going to be. And the fact that it was just this athletic feat. No one really had been up on stage for three and a half, three hours and 45 minutes playing their entire catalog. And I think as the world started to hear and see this through the online introspection every night and into some of the surprise songs, they started to understand this was something you just had to go be a part of.

TAUSCHE: Nathan, you're the former CEO of Ticketmaster, which did not emerge from the Eras tour entirely unscathed. There were a few snafus, but I'm wondering how you think the tour changed the game and the cost for these live events.

HUBBARD: Well, I think, look, people are going to talk a lot about the money that she made. She left a lot of money on the table, and that's one of the legacies of this tour is she made an effort to get everybody in.

Look, anytime you're trying to sell a lot of inventory to a small number of people at the same number of times, that's a good recipe for a stampede more so than a fun buying experience.

But at the end of the day, I think even with this last set of shows in Vancouver, she sold some seats that supposedly had no view for people to go stand in. She's put up screens for people to see. And I think the legacy for me of this tour is how much she invested in the fan experience, and it really raised the bar on a go-forward basis for all live performances where you're going to be expected to get up there and work your backside off, but also the visual component, the breadth of it, and the fan experience at the end of the day, she's really raised the bar for everybody.

KEILAR: Yes, that's a really interesting point. And Nora, of course, I think, you know, we all track, well, we all, her fans, anyways, track Easter.

PRINCIOTTI: We all.

KEILAR: Yes, we all -- track some of the Easter eggs. We always wonder what's coming. Any hints about what could come during the Sunday finale? And also, what do you think is next for Taylor Swift?

PRINCIOTTI: Oh, my gosh. Well, Nathan always teases me because I'm always predicting, you know, the big surprise, the reputation Taylor's version announcement, and then I have my clown mask on when it never comes true.

I'm sort of convinced that we're all going to tune in, you know, on TikTok or live or whatever, wherever we're watching, to the last show, and it's just going to be an awesome show, and she's not going to announce anything, and then her birthday is in a couple of days just after that, and I know that I will be, like, refreshing and scrolling and just seeing if there's a surprise, because she's always got something up her sleeve. You know, I hope she takes a break ultimately, but I don't know that she will move into whatever her next chapter is without doing something that we didn't see coming.

[16:00:03]

KEILAR: Yes, she always does that. The next thing, you know, we wake up in the morning and something happened at 3 a.m., she always leaves us guessing. Nathan Hubbard, Nora Princiotti, thank you so much to both of you. We're going to be watching. We're going to have some conspiracy theories just like you, Nora. Thank you.

HUBBARD: Thank you.

KEILAR: And "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.

END