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Strong person of Interest Held in CEO Shooting is Luigi Mangione; Mangione Found Carrying Multiple Fraudulent I.D.'s, a U.S. Passport, a Firearm, and Suppressor; Altoona Police Arrest 26-year-old Luigi Mangione in CEO Shooting Probe. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 09, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It set off the chain of events where the person luckily called 911 and the local Altoona police responded. But from everything that we've been told and from this press conference, the police have a lot of evidence at this point. They have the fake id, the New Jersey fake ID that he used to check into the hostel, the same -- the very same hostel he's caught on camera without the mask.

The other thing is there were other of fake identifications on there on him. They also say that they recovered the mask, the mask presumably that he was seen in video with. And so, they'll be able to obviously use that. So they have a lot of evidence. They still have to go through a lot of other information to link him directly to the crime. But it sounds like that process is underway.

The other thing the chief said was that he was carrying his U.S. passport, but there's no indication that he was planning on leaving the country. So, that is one way that they were able to officially, officially identify him, despite the fact that he was carrying all of those fake IDs.

And the other thing I want to talk about is obviously this manifesto and what it says there and the things that he's writing about. And one of the questions, because this was a targeted murder, an alleged murder of a CEO, and also because there could be some anti-corporate writings, it's reasonable to see if the FBI or the U.S. attorney's office here would in any way get involved in this. And perhaps not only would he face murder charges, there would be other charges as well. But that's still all to be determined.

And then lastly, as you pointed out, this manifesto, the police chief here, the chief of detectives said that he described it as a manifesto and it describes perhaps allegedly and gives them some indication as to motive and other information. And they are also investigating other writings that were found online and so forth.

So there's a deep, deep investigation underway that's now going to probably stress from -- go from New York City. He has connections to Pennsylvania, he has connections to Maryland, but interestingly enough, his last known address is in Honolulu, in Hawaii. So officials probably are going to have to make their way out there to conduct this investigation as well.

So a lot of information, certainly we wait for word on the charges and the direct link of this -- direct link of this person of interest to the crime. But I suspect that will come soon here, guys.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: All right, Shimon, thank you so much for that. We appreciate it.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Let's go to John Miller now, who again has been on top of the story since the events unfolded in Manhattan. And John, you have some new details about specific lines that you can quote from this two page, handwritten document that was found on Luigi Mangione's person. What was he writing about?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, he was railing against the healthcare industry, which of course, fits into the scenario here. He talks about how these parasites had it coming. He starts off basically saying, I don't want to cause any trauma, but it had to be done.

So a second page really kind of goes into problems with the health industry. He raises the question, you know, why do we have the most expensive healthcare in the world, but we're 42 -- rated 42 in life expectancy around the world? I can't vet his facts or findings there, but it was talking about the healthcare industry and the need for violence. I mean, especially when you talk about, you know, the opening, which is that it had to be done, these parasites, you know, had it coming. That does kind of fit in what they're talking about.

What do we know about this individual? Mr. Mangione is an engineer. He grew up in Tosin, Maryland. He's 26 years old. He graduated U Penn in 2020 and then went on to a master's program where he got that master's degree in engineering. And he has addresses, as Shimon said, in Tosin, where he grew up in Philadelphia, where he went to school, and Honolulu, which we're still looking into. But he is strongly believed to be the suspect in this case.

KEILAR: It's incredibly interesting. And it also speaks to the fact that he just had, Josh Campbell, you're with us now, so much on his person, according to police, from a suppressor to -- they're saying it's the fake I.D. they believe that he used at the hostel, the New Jersey fake ID when he was in New York.

[14:05:05]

And then this manifesto talking about why he did this. It's -- I mean, that tells you a lot about his maybe expectation that ultimately this was all going to catch up with him even as he tried to get away.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, you're spot on. And, you know, sometimes these major incidents that start with a bang end with a whimper, we didn't see a dramatic, you know, police take down. What we saw is someone eating at a McDonald's who then had the police called on him and apparently taken into custody without incident.

And, you know, it's so interesting. You know, John and I have been covering this. You know, there was this consensus in looking at that initial surveillance video from outside that hotel that police weren't dealing with Carlos the Jackal here. I mean, you look at everything from his stance in holding that gun to the type of gun itself, to the mistakes that he had made, apparently leaving behind a water bottle and a burner phone.

And so this, you know, this was a sophisticated job in the sense that it appeared to be planned and then executed. And then he was able to successfully flee and, you know, escape arrest for several days. But when you look at all of that material with him on his person, whenever he is actually taken into custody, someone who had the wherewithal to plan all of this and then to escape, several law enforcement agencies would have had to have known that having all of that on his person would implicate him in this crime.

As you mentioned, you have the fake ID, an ID that was matching the fake ID he used to check into that hostel. You have the mask that he had that was on these images that have been seen now around the world, and specifically the firearm itself. All of those items could have been ditched along the way as he was trying to escape, but he had them on his person.

Of course, you know, we can get into the firearms forensics if you'd like to see how, you know, how that would actually play a key role here. But when you look finally at the manifesto that you have to raise the question, is this someone who expected to be caught and didn't mind being caught eventually, particularly if he is someone who was railing against the industry in which this murder victim had worked. To have all that material on you and then to have essentially the motive, you know, laying out the motive in these documents for police to find

Everyone, you know, any good attorney will tell you that the best way to escape any type of serious charge such as murder is to create reasonable doubt. To have no evidence on your person, to try to fight every accusation that comes your way that much, much harder when you have all of that with you as you're taken into custody.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. Certainly an intriguing point why he would have that kind of note on him. It speaks to some form of premeditation, at least. Josh Campbell, thank you for that.

We also have with us Michael Alcazar, a retired NYPD detective. And on Friday, you talked about how critical DNA evidence would not -- would be, not necessarily in identifying a suspect, but tying them to the crime. And in hearing about some of these details, specifically about the water bottle that was left behind and a partial fingerprint that was on that water bottle. I'm curious, how significant a piece of evidence would that be in a future prosecution?

MICHAEL ALCAZAR, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Yeah, this is absolutely huge that we had this suspect and then we processed the crime scene, you know, as best suitability of the NYPD. We got DNA, we got fingerprints, and we have the ammunition. So now, hopefully we can link all that to this suspect. We are going to get DNA from, get fingerprints off to him. The weapon, like the other person mentioned before, we can link it to the bullets because usually the barrel will have rifling. I know this is a ghost gun, hopefully it still produces the same marks on the ammunition. So, crime scene processing the images that we put out, the Crime Stoppers tips, that's what helped solve this crime and make this arrest.

KEILAR: And John Miller, back to you. We're talking about, why does he have all of this potential evidence on him? So much of it. But I guess there's also a question of what was the intent of the letter? In some crimes, you have people who send in their manifesto with the expectation they may or may not get caught. Do you have an idea, perhaps, what the intent could be looking at cases like that?

MILLER: Brianna, that's a really important question. And here's why. You know, when you look at the note, I do apologize for any strife or trauma, but it had to be done. These parasites had it coming. This is a single homicide we're looking at. Parasites is in the plural.

And the note itself, where he says, I acted alone, I'm self-funded. It suggests two potential things here. Number one, he was expecting to be caught somehow, somewhere, and wanted the note to say, I acted alone. This was just me. And here's the why, or the other even darker possibility, which is he intended to keep striking and at some point was going to release this note after he killed executives from other healthcare companies or other major corporations.

[14:10:10]

We've looked at some of his other writings going back to the past on his social media and things he's posted. And he does rail against corporate America, against profiteering, against taking advantage of the consumer. And he does talk about how protest is ineffective and that violence is the next step that has to be taken. So a lot to kind of chew on there while they put together the charges, as Shimon said, and others get together the physical and forensic evidence that may tie him to this New York murder.

SANCHEZ: Josh Campbell, back to you. Because Michael brought up something I found interesting. Obviously, in a lot of cases, forensic experts will look at a firearm and doing an analysis of the sort of grooves that are on the bullet, the impression that is left on a bullet. And it helps to tie, obviously, guns to certain incidents. I wonder how that might change given that this is a ghost gun that officials believe was potentially printed by a 3D printer.

CAMPBELL: Well, so the ghost gun aspect would make it more difficult to try to tie it to past crimes. And we know that the bullet shell casings obviously recovered from the scene of the crime that could be tested. The fact that we didn't hear of any matches to past crimes tells us that, you know, this is something that he may have, you know, procured maybe recently, maybe he put it together himself and maybe he's never used it before in the commission of a crime that was known to law enforcement. But it is still a critical piece of evidence.

Because as you mentioned, when you look at firearm testing, it's very much like a fingerprint. Whenever a projectile leaves the end of that gun, there are unique markings. You could see here. These are images of when I went inside the ATF lab to show this kind of testing.

So they would take this gun into one of these facilities. They actually do a test to capture the bullet that is fired, but also the shell casing that gets ejected. And then they essentially take it under a microscope and actually look for those unique patterns.

Whenever the shell casing makes contact with that gun, there are unique markings that law enforcement can look at. And what they're trying to do is see, is there a match? When you look at the shell casing at the scene, you look at those bullets and you compare that with what was tested.

All they're trying to do here is to match was the gun found on this individual actually similar in nature to the characteristics of the rounds of ammunition left behind at the scene? And because of the unique nature of that testing, as I mentioned, somewhat like a fingerprint. That could be very strong evidence.

KEILAR: Yeah, you link it to the gun used if the perpetrator has it on them, which police say he did in this case. So that is going to be potentially huge here.

Michael, I wonder, knowing that this is someone we expect, based on what we're learning from police from that, what was written on the shell casings and on that bullet and this manifesto, this is someone with potentially a very clear motive that they wanted people to be aware of, or they would not have used bullets with letters -- with words written on them. What does that tell you about what discussions with police right now could be yielding?

ALCAZAR: Yeah, this guy, I think, sees himself as a martyr. He might want to talk, right? He might not want to lawyer up. He might want to tell his story. He wants people to know why he did this. So it's going to be interesting to find out if he had any spontaneous utterances on the scene when the police officers arrested him, when they finally get him into the station, as if he's going to be willing to cooperate, waive his rights and be interrogated.

So, you know, right now, with his manifesto and everything he's done so far, the letters on -- the words on the bullets, right? You know, the monopoly money. This guy, I think your guess are right. He wanted to be captured eventually. Maybe he was just tired of hiding and running. He wants his statement out there. He wants his story out there. He wants some kind of justification.

And, you know, given the events that happened the past few days, he might get some sympathy from the public. We've seen some people defending this suspect. So it's going to be very telling what he does once inside the detective squad.

SANCHEZ: I want to go back to John Miller, because one of the key things that comes next, John, is the extradition process from Altoona, Pennsylvania to New York. How does that work? How long do you expect that to take? MILLER: Well, the first thing that has to happen is that the New York charges have to be drawn up. And now that there is a suspect in custody while he's being held on local charges, they're going to do the things that Josh Campbell was talking about.

[14:15:02]

They're going to fire that gun. They're going to get that ballistic match, if in fact it matches. They're going to take DNA swabs from him, even if they need a search warrant to get that, and then compare that to DNA recovered here.

So when they get to those charges, then they can request extradition. He can waive extradition and just come to New York to face those charges. Or there can be a hearing where a judge agrees or disagrees about sending him back. They could make him face the local charges first. It's unlikely, though. It's more likely that they would return him to Manhattan to face that homicide charge if and when it's filed.

KEILAR: And, John, all of the evidence, because we heard in that press conference, and maybe you can just shed some light on how it works. There were questions about the manifesto, and they were pointing out law enforcement, NYPD, pointing out that the Altoona police are in possession of that. How does that kind of thing get handed off so that officials in New York can take a look at it?

MILLER: Well, the actual note that's taken from him, along with everything else taken from him, is part of a chain of custody. So that would have to be, you know, logged in and vouchered into the records of the Altoona PD and at some point turned over to the NYPD. Including the copy of that manifesto, which, of course, you want to protect by, you know, bagging it and making sure that no one else is handling it, because you're going to want to -- you're going to want to go over that for handwriting, his DNA, fingerprints, who else may have handled it, and so on.

But all of that evidence will be logged in there, where they seized it and then transferred to New York for those charges. Once they deal with what they're going to do with the local charges, which really have the effect of being a holding charge for him, you could have that Manhattan District Attorney's case charging him with, beyond being a person of interest to being charged with murder in the second degree in New York.

But you also could have a federal case where he is charged with crossing multiple state lines with the intent to commit a felony, to wit, the murder in New York City, which would involve the FBI and the U.S. Attorney. So there's a lot that could come into play here, but the main thing at play right now is state charges of homicide in New York, which can only be drawn up after they learn what they need to learn today. And that trip out to Pennsylvania and get those forensics to match or not.

SANCHEZ: Josh Campbell, to that point that John just made about crossing state lines. As you look at the big picture here and we analyze this person of interest, strong person of interest motives. One of the questions I had is, why go to Pennsylvania? Given that he writes in this manifesto that he acted alone, and if you take his word for him on that, officials believe that he had no one, or at this point, they don't believe that he had anyone in Pennsylvania that he was going to go meet. So it seems like he wanted to be caught.

CAMPBELL: No, it's an excellent point. And we don't yet know what was in his mind, what his intentions were. Again, was this someone who expected to be caught, maybe wanted to eventually, you know, get caught and made this plan of escape. What's interesting here is that all of the forensic evidence that we've been talking in a criminal case will tell you what happened and potentially who did it. And that is what authorities would be looking at.

But of course, there's this big question about the motivation, trying to suss (ph) that out as well, get to the bottom of why this actually occurred. Now, prosecutors don't need to determine motivation in order to successfully charge and then convict someone with homicide, but it's a critical aspect of any investigation to try to get to that motivation. The big question is, will he actually speak to authorities? You know, sometimes in these cases, we've seen that people who conduct these kinds of crime are proud of what they do. They want the world to know.

Obviously, with the compelling evidence here that was on his person when he was taken into custody, this is someone who may understand that his future is very bleak as it relates to the criminal justice system. And so he might actually go out and, you know, admit to the interviewing agents and officers that, yes, this is something that I've done.

And of course, what we're trying to determine now, and we'll see if he actually admits this, is was this someone who himself had faced some type of issue with the healthcare industry? Did he himself have some type of injury or procedure and have to go through the often frustrating, you know, dealing with insurance companies to try to deal with those kind of injuries? Was that what motivated him? Was there someone that he knew, a loved one, who perhaps went through the same, or was he this martyr who's trying to speak on behalf of many people who face these kinds of issues vis a vis, you know, dealing with the industry?

Again, a lot of questions about why it took place and of course, why this specific healthcare CEO. You know, we know that this conference, for example, that was set to take place there in New York. This investor conference was something that was known publicly about the date and when that would start.

A lot of questions about how he actually knew that this CEO would be coming there early.

[14:20:01]

Was this someone that he had researched? You know, all of those are questions that law enforcement would have, but now they have the person, they can then, you know, work to determine is this someone who has, you know, a social media footprint that, you know, we can -- we all have seen a lot on social media that's unconfirmed. But law enforcement, through legal process can try to obtain various records as well, again, to try to, you know, get to what he himself has written and what he himself has said.

And then the final point is because this is someone with such a large footprint in multiple states, as you mentioned there, Maryland, obviously the crime being committed in New York, someone who most recently had an address from Hawaii, had lived in California, apparently at one point. A lot of places that law enforcement will have to go to try to interview people who knew him, to try to see do they know the motive.

Did anyone know that not -- that he was intending to commit a murder allegedly, but was this someone who was aggrieved and maybe had verbalized that to other people as well? All that, you know, would be crucial in trying to get to that very important why.

KEILAR: Yeah. And that I am curious about that, John Miller, of course, online sleuths social media commentary has been ablaze with, is this someone with a very specific personal experience? And so far what we are seeing, at least so far, and I think we should stress that, John, is that this is someone with more of a, I don't want to say an academic opposition to the health care industry, but it so far does not appear to be rooted in a specific instance. And we will wait to see if that changes.

But to Josh's point, about all these different places that police are going to go, are you surprised as you know, someone who recently, you know, last known location, Hawaii, obviously went through, by your reporting these academic programs at Penn, you would think he would have been around a bunch of people. Were you surprised that they didn't have a name before today, just from people looking at the photos?

MILLER: You know, it's interesting that you bring that up because, you know, he was in school, he was in a fraternity, he's in chat rooms and you know, online communities with other people who know him, where his picture is posted and is prominent. And think about it, Brianna, who recognized him, was it his best friend, was it his ex-girlfriend, was it his college professor? No, it was a complete and total stranger in McDonald's.

So that tells us something that we've seen before in the Boston Marathon bombing case, in some of these other cases where in the case where the individual, Frank James, shot 10 people on the New York subway. When I was with the police department, we put his picture all over the place. And people who knew him didn't call in and say that's who he is. But people on the street recognized him.

So that's why this crowd sourcing thing is so important. You've got to blast it out in every direction because you may get the people who know him. You may get people who know him who don't want to report him. You may get a total stranger who recognizes him on a hunch because they saw those photos and they say that looks like the same guy, maybe the same jacket. Why is he wearing a mask still if that was the case? But that's what you're trying to do, reach as many people as possible. And when they reframed it last week saying, we want people beyond New York City to be looking for this person because we don't think he's here right now, we think he's somewhere else. I think that really put it into the minds of a lot of people who might not have been scanning for it.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. As officials in New York said, someone saw something and did something about it. And now someone at McDonald's may be entitled to a $50,000 reward. John, Michael and Josh, thank you all so much.

We're following the latest on this case. Luigi Mangione, a 26-year-old from Maryland, arrested, believed to be connected to the shooting of United CEO Brian Thompson. Stay with CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:42]

KEILAR: And this just in to CNN. A UnitedHealth Group spokesperson just issued a statement in response to a suspect's arrest in connection with the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. This is what it says, quote, "Our hope is that today's apprehension brings some relief to Brian's family, friends, colleagues and the many others affected by this unspeakable tragedy. We thank law enforcement and will continue to work with them on this investigation. We ask that everyone respect the family's privacy as they mourn." Which is end of that statement from the spokesperson who also declined to comment further.

Let's bring in Josh Campbell. Josh, I think especially in light of all of the speculation about what drew this individual who killed Brian Thompson to go forward with this, there's been a broader conversation about whether CEOs, higher ups in companies, corporations that may at times have negative interactions with people in the public, what they need to be taking away from this when it comes to security.

CAMPBELL: Well, you know, there are two sides of this coin. The first being there obviously is a sense of relief now among us, you know, certain individuals at UnitedHealth, perhaps other industry competitors as well, that this individual is now taken off the street and no longer poses a threat. But there is always the big question about the potential, you know, so called copycat people who see what this person did, maybe --