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Defense Atty Questions NYPD's Forensic Evidence of Mangione; NYPD: CEO Murder Suspect May have been Inspired by Unabomber; Trump Previews Presidency in Interview with Time Magazine; Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-OR) Discusses About President-elect Trump's Plan on Deportation. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 12, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Forensic evidence is mounting against the suspect in the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Police are now trying to piece together Luigi Mangione's movements leading up to the killing. And the brother of Ted Kaczynski, the so-called Unabomber, has a message for Mangione, who has repeatedly praised the serial killer.

Plus, Democratic senator, John Fetterman, meets the president-elect's controversial choice to lead the Pentagon, becoming the first Democrat to meet with Pete Hegseth. And Fetterman won't rule out backing him, as he has said that Democrats can't, quote, "freak out about everything Trump does."

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And freaking out in New Jersey over dozens of unidentified drones that have been spotted in the night skies over the past month and no one seems to know why. A mystery so bizarre, the FBI and Homeland Security are now getting involved. We're going to be joined by a New Jersey mayor to talk about what's happening over his town and his level of concern.

We're following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Hello, I'm Brianna Keilar, alongside Boris Sanchez here in Washington. And the attorney for accused killer Luigi Mangione is casting doubt on the forensic evidence that the NYPD says ties the Maryland man to the assassination of UnitedHealthcare's CEO last week. New York police say the gun that was found on the 26-year-old when he was arrested in Pennsylvania matches three shell casings found at the crime scene in New York. And investigators say Mangione's fingerprints matched ones that were recovered on evidence, including a water bottle, a food wrapper and, sources say, a burner phone that was discarded near the scene by the killer.

SANCHEZ: Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg says he is confident that Mangione is the killer of Brian Thompson. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Obviously, this is a, you know, profound - profoundly disturbing, as we've alleged, murder. And we would not charge the person if we didn't think it was the person, and we're prepared to go forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: But the attorney for Mangione says he has yet to see any evidence for himself.

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THOMAS DICKEY, ATTORNEY FOR CEO MURDER SUSPECT LUIGI MANGIONE: Saying you have something and getting that admitted into court are two different things. We need to see it. We need to see how do they collect it, how much of it matches. You know, like, I don't want to get too technical, but fingerprints, they go by ridges, different things like that. And then we would have our experts, we would have experts take a look at that and then we would challenge its admissibility and challenge the accuracy of those results.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Joining us now is criminology professor Adam Lankford of the University of Alabama and former New York Police detective sergeant, Felipe Rodriguez. He's also an adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

Thank you both for being with us.

Felipe, you just heard Mangione's attorney there casting doubt on some of the science behind the evidence that police say connects Mangione to the scene. Is that science credible?

Felipe Rodriguez: The science is credible, but you've got to remember, his number one responsibility is to do what? Cast doubt. Cast doubt on how the evidence was collected to make sure that we don't have the situation where cross-contamination could have occurred. Cast doubt on the partial fingerprint saying that, you know what, there just aren't enough ridges, swoops, whirls, you know, to make sure that we have a positive identification. He's trying to pick it apart just from the beginning and that's the job of a defense attorney.

KEILAR: Yes. And also I wonder, Adam, there's so much - and it's hard to say, but it's true, there's popularity for this suspect. We're seeing that. You heard Bragg lamenting that. And I wonder if you see that as somehow ultimately playing in this case.

ADAM LANKFORD, CRIMINOLOGY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: Well, absolutely, it's concerning, but of course, it's nothing new, right? We've seen a bunch of different killers, assassins, terrorists, mass shooters, cop killers, who expressed anger over things that many Americans are angry about.

[15:05:10]

But ultimately, there's a big difference, right? And the studies I've done of ideologically motivated killers really showed that, look, they're different from the average American. They're often socially isolated. They're struggling romantically, sexually. They're unhappy, unhealthy, usually young men and they have nothing to lose, right?

So there are ways that this individual could have fought through the system. He chose a criminal route. And really, that makes him different from the rest of us.

SANCHEZ: I wonder, Adam, what you make of his attorney's suggestion that he hasn't seen any of the evidence that authorities have, but he sort of questions some of the sciences behind those things like fingerprinting and DNA evidence.

At what point does he start talking to his client about a potential plea deal as we're watching the evidence start stacking up?

LANKFORD: Right. There could be a leverage game here, right, where they're essentially saying, if we can dispute some of the evidence, maybe that will give us some leverage to get a better deal. But one of the things that's interesting about this is sometimes the clients, the criminal suspects, do not cooperate. It wouldn't surprise me if in this case, this healthcare shooter actually says, I want to stand behind my distorted message, right, that he wouldn't want to deny responsibility, but rather claim it. That's quite common in these cases. Although, you know, what kind of message is he really claiming?

I read the manifesto, less than 300 words, not a lot of original thought. He even admitted in it, you know, that he wasn't the most qualified person to understand this issue, so. But that's what we get with these kind of individuals sometimes, where they want to claim responsibility no matter what their lawyer says.

KEILAR: I saw you nodding, too, at that, Felipe. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that, but also what investigators are doing right now as they're awaiting this extradition process while he fights extradition in Pennsylvania.

RODRIGUEZ: Well, one thing we got to look at, remember, this case is not over. The gathering of evidence is not over. They're still going over CCTV footage, trying to get that digital trail. We're trying to see footstep by footstep exactly where he went. We're trying to make this an airtight case. One of the biggest fears, as a professor, I tell people, we got to be careful with jury nullification, you know?

He's become a social legend superhero almost - a social media superhero. And at this point, the prosecutor, I think, is going to have a hard time trying to find people that aren't sympathetic to him. And jury nullification is a simple concept, but guess what? It doesn't matter how the DA presents it. It doesn't matter how well it's gathered the evidence and everything else. The jury is going to see things a certain way. So he's going to be very careful.

And the detectives still have a lot of work, you know? They got to make sure that every step, every dot, everything is done exactly. Otherwise, they could have a big issue.

SANCHEZ: I do also wonder, as you talk about that sympathy, Felipe, whether you have concern about copycats in the future, seeing as he's gotten so much support and there's a lot of folks out there that are angry over a litany of issues.

RODRIGUEZ: Well, you know, he did highlight a very big point. And it's, you know, hit home with a lot of individuals, so, yes, we are concerned about that, you know? The way we're seeing it now, people think, you know what, take someone's life if you think it's a just cause. Social media might back you up. And, you know, the court of public opinion is actually swaying in his direction. That's the way things have changed lately.

KEILAR: Yes, it's a troubling trend. Felipe, Adam, thank you so much. We really appreciate your perspectives.

So his writings show that Mangione may have been inspired by another famed wanted man, Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski. And the brother of the serial killer spoke to CNN about the suspect's praise for Kaczynski, who was serving eight life sentences when he died last year at the age of 81.

David Kaczynski wrote, quote, "I love my brother and turning him in was the most difficult and painful thing I've had to do in my life. But as much as I love Ted, I hate what he did to kill and maim his fellow human beings. Whatever you may think of Ted Kaczynski's ideas - and I do believe they merit thinking about - we must reject his harmful actions."

SANCHEZ: It does seem that Mangione embraced Kaczynski's belief in violence to advance political ends. CNN's Jason Carroll looked into their similarities for us.

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LUIGI MANGIONE: ... and an insult to the intelligence of the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): If Luigi Mangione speaks like he did outside court Tuesday, investigators listened closely and not just to what he's saying now that he's in custody, but also to what he has said or written in the past, such as these unsettling words:

[15:10:07]

"'Violence never solved anything' is a statement uttered by cowards and predators."

Mangione wrote that in January 2024, in support of the notorious Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski. It's part of the Goodreads review. Mangione wrote of Kaczynski's 1995 anti-technology manifesto "Industrial Society and Its Future".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just hope that this might be of additional assistance in obtaining leads regarding the Unabomber suspect.

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CARROLL (voice over): Kaczynski terrorized the nation for years. He served eight life sentences for sending mail bombs that killed three and wounded 23 others from the late '70s until the mid '90s.

According to an NYPD intelligence analysis report obtained by CNN, Mangione may have found inspiration in Ted Kaczynski. The report reads. He notably praised the writings of Kaczynski.

Mangione, liked several passages from Kaczynski's manifesto, in his review, defending it, writing: "It's easy to quickly and thoughtless write this off as the manifesto of a lunatic."

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SCOTT BONN, CRIMINOLOGIST: I think Mangione is very much inspired by the work of Kaczynski and his manifesto.

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CARROLL (voice over): Scott Bonn is a criminologist who has written about serial killers and Kaczynski. He says he sees a chilling similarity.

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BONN: They have to find a way to justify it, and in the case of Kaczynski and also Mangione, I believe, that they justified it as this was a necessary evil.

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CARROLL (voice over): Other notable similarities, both men are highly intelligent and Ivy League educated. Kaczynski, a Harvard grad mathematician, while Mangione minored in mathematics at the University of Pennsylvania, where he also majored in computer science and engineering and had a masters.

Kaczynski was estranged from his family, living as a recluse in Montana. Mangione's mother reported her 26-year-old son missing about two weeks before the shooting, telling police at the time she had not spoken to him since July.

And while Kaczynski targeted universities and airlines, Mangione allegedly had his sights set on the health care industry and UnitedHealthcare's CEO. Police found a three page handwritten claim of responsibility on Mangione. He also wrote in a spiral notebook, much like Kaczynski did, writing: "What could be better than to kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference."

It should be noted that Kaczynski's brother, David, has spoken out in the wake of the shooting, saying violence is not the answer.

In a statement to CNN saying Kaczynski's actions were blind, misguided, cruel and utterly inconsistent with his goal of preserving our basic humanity, we must remember that our world is never improved by violence, only by love.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

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KEILAR: And our thanks to Jason Carroll for that report.

Still to come, fear and frustration over mysterious drone sightings over New Jersey. A local mayor says his town is, quote, literally being invaded.

SANCHEZ: And puberty blockers for minors banned in Britain, while America's highest court considers state bans on transgender health care. We're going to speak to a pediatrician about what this means for kids and parents.

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[15:17:51]

SANCHEZ: In a new interview with Time Magazine, President-elect Donald Trump is giving a preview of what he plans to do after he takes the oath of office on January 20th. Joining us now to discuss, Democratic senator, Jeff Merkley, of Oregon.

Senator, thank you so much for being with us.

I want to start with Trump telling Time that he plans to use the military to carry out mass deportations. Now, U.S. law would require an act of Congress to make that happen, meaning that he would need support from Democrats to pass some form of legislation. I wonder what might Trump offer up as a concession that would make you consider voting to use the military for deportations?

SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D-OR): Boris, it's good to be with you.

And you're absolutely right. Under U.S. law, the military cannot be used directly for internal law enforcement. It's a big difference between an authoritarian nation and a republic, which we have here in the United States of America. I cannot see any conditions under which Democrats would support taking an authoritarian strategy of turning our military into domestic enforcers. So I think that that's going to be off the table.

SANCHEZ: I also wonder where some of these migrants may go, whether camps that Trump says that he plans on potentially building in the United States where some of them may go, because many of them, as you know, come from countries that don't have diplomatic relations with the United States, like Cuba and Venezuela. On top of that, Mexico is trying to limit the number of third-country deportees that it receives from the United States. Do you have a sense of where some of these undocumented folks might wind up?

MERKLEY: Well, you are correct that many nations are not going to open their doors to the return. And realize there's huge challenges here. That is - we're talking about undocumented workers in America playing critical roles from meatpacking plants to agriculture to restaurants. We're talking about folks who are fathers and mothers of children, U.S. citizens here in the United States of America.

[15:20:01]

And we know that our economy is near full employment. It's been a dramatically full employment period. And therefore, there would be massive economic shocks.

Why don't we use, instead, a legislature to create a structure to put undocumented workers into a legal framework, so they can support our economy, but we can restore the rule of law at the border, which has, in fact, had some serious problems, serious problems that Democrats and Republicans have agreed on. Serious problems that Democrats and Republicans in the Senate worked out a bipartisan bill to address, and so we can basically enable ourselves to have a win for the economy, a win for families, and restore the rule of law.

SANCHEZ: I'm wondering about what Trump told Time regarding RFK Jr., a vaccine skeptic, and directing him to study rising rates of autism diagnoses. Kennedy has implied that there's a link between the two, though scientific studies have repeatedly shown zero evidence of one. You'll obviously be voting on RFK Jr.'s confirmation to HHS early next year. Is there anything Kennedy can do to sway your vote?

MERKLEY: Well, there's one thing that Kennedy has supported, which I am in full agreement on. And that is that we should be negotiating the price of every drug, that no American should be paid more - be paying more than the Canadians or the Europeans or the Australians or the Japanese for drugs. These drugs largely invented in the United States of America, largely invented based on research that we, the American taxpayers, fund. We should get the best prices in the world, not the worst.

I would encourage Kennedy to undertake this mission all out, and that would be a very positive thing. But so many other things that Robert Kennedy Jr. has pursued have been just kind of crazy conspiracy science. I don't know what to call it other than - I mean, we have every study has confirmed no connection, has shown that there's no connection between vaccinations and autism. It's easy to keep repeating, it's easy to keep scaring people, but it's simply wrong and not a foundation for health care that will help anyone.

In fact, it'll hurt because once you lose significant levels of vaccination, we're going to have measles epidemics and epidemics of other diseases that are going to hurt our children.

SANCHEZ: You serve on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, so there were a number of things I wanted to ask you about in that regard. And Trump expressed some desire in this interview to claw back President Biden's recent policy change that allowed Ukraine to attack targets inside Russia with U.S. weapons. If that is revoked, what would it mean for Ukraine?

MERKLEY: Now, the experts have really disagreed on how significant this is, because, for example, the planes that were placed within the distance of those missiles were easily moved to other bases. So the - so it's really been a split decision on how essential this was. The real concern is more about cutting off funding to Ukraine.

I think it's clear to everyone that in the end, this is going to have to be settled by negotiation. It's pretty clear to everyone that we're pretty much at a stalemate. But what we also know is that if we undermine Ukraine's ability to carry on the battle at this point by defunding them, if we also break down the partnership with Europe, destroying the ability of Ukraine to defend itself, then Ukraine will have no position to stand on for that negotiation. So I'd be a lot more concerned about his threat of ending funding for Ukraine than I would about the policy regarding the extended missiles.

SANCHEZ: Sure. I do want to get your thoughts on the record on one thing before we go, and that is Trump apparently inviting Xi Jinping to his inauguration in January. Do you think that that's a way to open up a different level of dialogue with the Chinese leader?

MERKLEY: Well, it is bizarre. This is not something we have ever done. And to invite authoritarian leaders to come or an authoritarian leader who doesn't value anything about the government - the idea of government by and for the people, he's all about government by and for himself, by himself, essentially the dictator that controls China.

And so because Trump has expressed a lot of admiration for autocracy and leaders like Putin, I mean, what's going to come next? An invitation to Putin? Leaders like Putin and like Xi who are deliberately undermining our republic, they're using propaganda to undermine it, there are trade strategies damages. I think it's a - basically a terrible idea.

[15:25:08]

We should be selling the idea of democracy around the world, not butting up to dictators.

Senator Jeff Merkley, we have to leave the conversation there. Appreciate you sharing your perspective.

MERKLEY: Boris, it's good to be with you. Take care now.

SANCHEZ: Thanks so much. You, too.

Still ahead, lights in the sky and fear and confusion on the ground. We have new details about those mysterious drones that have been spotted all over New Jersey.

Stay with CNN NEWS CENTRAL. We're back in just moments.

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