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Sources: Luigi Mangione Charged With Murder Of United Health CEO; Police: Cannot Verify Authenticity Of Document Claimed To Be "Manifesto"; Police Working With ATF To Trace Gun In WI School Shooting; RFK Says He's "All For" Polio Vaccine As Senators Question His Views. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 17, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:07]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: We begin this hour with breaking news into CNN. I'm Boris Sanchez, alongside Brianna Keilar in our nation's capital. Luigi Mangione has officially been indicted in New York for the murder of Brian Thompson. That's according to multiple law enforcement sources. Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg is set to give an update on the charges against the 26-year-old in roughly 20 to 30 minutes. The suspect accused of gunning down the UnitedHealthcare CEO nearly two weeks ago.

Now, Mangione has been fighting extradition to New York after his arrest in Pennsylvania. We should note, this means that a New York grand jury has voted to charge Mangione with multiple charges, including murder in the first degree and murder in the second degree.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And of course, he currently faces a second degree murder charge in New York, along with weapons and forgery charges. The 26-year-old has also been charged with additional counts in Pennsylvania.

Let's get right to CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller; trial attorney Mercedes Colwin also with us on this.

John, what are you learning about what Bragg is going to say here?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: What we are told is that they will announce these indictments at a 3:30 news conference. District Attorney Alvin Bragg, his team, New York City Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch and her team expected to announce those charges.

If in fact the indictment is for murder in the second degree, that would be normal in a case like this. But if murder in the first degree is one of those charges, and that is what we are told by multiple sources, it will be unusual because murder in the first degree in New York State requires a number of special elements. Either it was the premeditated murder of a police officer, a court official, a judge or it relates to New York State's terrorism law, which is to coerce or influence or intimidate a civilian population.

And given this case and the fact that prosecutors allege that Mangione was arrested with a three-page document on his person saying that he was targeting the healthcare industry because of his perception of their greed and corruption, this could well fit into Section 490 of that state terrorism law. So it will be not unique, but very interesting in terms of charging.

SANCHEZ: Yes, that will be a fascinating aspect to hear how Alvin Bragg sort of explains this decision. Mercedes, I wonder, when you look at the facts of the case, it seems that prosecutors believe they have enough evidence to link Mangione not only to a pattern that would suggest terrorism, but to seemingly planning further attacks on executives in the healthcare industry.

MERCEDES COLWIN, TRIAL ATTORNEY: You're exactly right, Boris. And when you first talked about this case, you mentioned murder in the first degree and said with further investigation, and at that point, the manifesto had not been found, there would be likely upward of charges, and that's exactly what were taking place. In fact, if you look at the manifesto, there are specific language in there where Luigi Mangione talks about targeting CEOs in the industry in total and where to target them, go to where their conventions are, that specific language in the manifesto.

So that's probably what was brought forth before the grand jury. Alvin Bragg and his prosecutors, I'm sure, went through that type of evidence in order to establish the first degree indictment.

KEILAR: And John, if Mangione doesn't waive his right to fight extradition, what comes next?

MILLER: Well, that will be part of today's press conference, I am told, which is they will discuss not only the charges, but have an update on the status of the extradition process. Now, on Friday, District Attorney Alvin Bragg in a press conference mentioned that he expected that Mangione would waive extradition.

[15:05:02]

Meaning change his position that he was going to fight extradition and that this could take less time than the month or so that was initially predicted in this process.

At the same time, CNN reported exclusively that Mangione had retained Karen Agnifilo Friedman, a major Manhattan criminal attorney who is a former top prosecutor in the Manhattan DA's office. So one could infer the possibility that once he obtained a New York lawyer for the New York charges, which are going to be far more serious than the Pennsylvania charges, that they may have conferred with his Pennsylvania lawyer and said, let's drop fighting extradition. Let's move along to get into the discovery process with New York prosecutors and get into the more serious charges.

SANCHEZ: Mercedes, do you anticipate that that will be the case, that this fight over extradition is effectively ending soon? COLWIN: Of course, he was a head scratcher when his attorney in Pennsylvania said they were going to fight extradition. Because considering the evidence that was found on Luigi's person when he was confronted by law enforcement, he had the manifesto, he had the ghost gun, he had the ID, his identification that he used at the hostel, all key evidence that established that there was probable cause that he may be the shooter, in fact, the shooter that was being sought after.

So it was such a head scratcher for those of us who are in the defense bar, not fully understanding why the attorney in Pennsylvania would then stand and say that he's going to object to it, because it is such a routine type of hearing. We're just talking about probable cause to link the individual that's being accused of charges in another state. But frankly, we're sort of quarterbacking here. I'm sure the attorney just did not want to make representations on behalf of the client until he secured counsel in New York.

And Karen Friedman Agnifilo is a tremendous lawyer. I'm sure that she was instrumental in making sure that he changed his strategy, which frankly would have just been a waste of time to try to object to extradition, given all the evidence that was found on his person. It would have been established and then he would have been sent to New York within a few weeks anyway, if he had fought it in a hearing.

KEILAR: All right. Mercedes and John, if you can stand by, we're going to go to Shimon Prokupecz, who is in Manhattan. He's at the news conference that we're awaiting.

Shimon, what are you hearing?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so this news conference, as we've been reporting, should start in about 30 minutes or so. We'll have the police commissioner here, along with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, who are going to lay out the charges and the elements for why they brought the charges.

Certainly hearing that this is a murder one indictment is very significant. Many people are asking if that would even happen in this case, because everyone was certainly expecting a murder two indictment. But a murder one is certainly something that is usually used in cases involving when officers are killed in the line of duty. There are all kinds of elements that need to be met during that kind of a charge, during that kind of an investigation and indictment.

So here what's happened is it appears that they have used elements, evidence that they have collected with allegations behind why Luigi Mangione did this, his reasoning in his own writing in the notes that they were able to get from him when he was arrested that really gave them the elements to indict him on murder in the first degree.

We're going to wait to see what specific language they use. But certainly in terrorism cases, anytime someone does something as an act of terrorism that they can meet under the New York state law, they can then bring a murder one charge, specifically the terrorism charge. We were looking this up just as we were heading up here that it needs to - there's an intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence policy or affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder or assassination.

And so perhaps that is the element here that investigators and that the district attorney's office, when they presented the case to the grand jury, that is perhaps the element here and the law that they use to bring this charge. If in fact this is a terrorism charge, it is going to be, though not unusual, it is, you know, for New York City, certainly it tends to be unprecedented.

So this is going to be a very significant announcement, certainly having the murder in the first degree charge. And if there is this element of terrorism attached to it, that is going to be very significant here.

SANCHEZ: Shimon ...

PROKUPECZ: It also changes how much time he could potentially face in prison. It goes from 25 years to life to now amend (ph) that would essentially be life in prison that he would face.

[15:10:05]

SANCHEZ: Yes, it is a much more significant charge. Shimon, please stand by.

PROKUPECZ: Yes.

SANCHEZ: And Mercedes, if you're still with us, to that point, I just want to clarify this for viewers, because he's charged with first degree murder, it creates a higher burden for prosecutors to convince a jury that the acts that he committed fall under what that category outlines. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't meet the qualifications for second degree murder and wouldn't wind up spending the rest of his life behind bars anyway if he's found guilty.

COLWIN: Boris, you're exactly right, and I want to read from the manifesto, which might be the linchpin to connect Luigi Mangione to these terrorist type charges that he's facing. It says in the manifesto, among the writings that were recovered after his arrest. In the manifesto, there's a specific passage that states as follows: "What do you do? You whack the CEO at the annual parasitic bean counter convention."

And that certainly is taking to exactly your point earlier on, is that he is literally inciting individuals to take on an entire industry and to go and attack the top senior leadership of those particular companies. And that's where that could have been. Very likely parts of this manifesto, including that statement from his manifesto must - could have been read to the grand jury.

We know the grand jury are confidential. We're not going to know what was presented before the grand jury. It is strictly confidential. But it's likely that parts of the manifesto, including that passage I just read to, was read to the jury to try to get that first degree murder indictment.

KEILAR: Shimon, thank you so much for that. Mercedes, thank you. John, we appreciate you as well.

And we are following some more breaking news. This time it's out of Madison, Wisconsin, where officials just held a live press conference, giving us some new details about yesterday's deadly school shooting there. The police chief says they have been trying to figure out why a 15-year-old girl opened fire there at Abundant Life Christian School, that that's their top priority, looking for a motive that it appears to be a combination of factors, but they aren't disclosing it just yet.

SANCHEZ: Yes, the police chief also said that they're looking to verify a document being shared online that many are referring to as a manifesto and they're looking into the 15-year-old social media.

Let's bring in CNN's Whitney Wild, who was at that press conference in Madison.

Whitney, obviously still a lot of questions remain still relatively early in the investigation. Take us through what else the chief said about how they're trying to piece this puzzle all together.

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, he was reluctant to answer very many detailed questions. In fact, for the first time in this last 24 hours, he did not take questions. He had four press conferences yesterday. He took questions at all of them. He did not do that today. He said now this moves into the investigation phase.

So clearly there is much more to learn. And law enforcement is hyper aware of sensitivity surrounding that and securing this investigation. As they move forward, again, as you had mentioned, they're combing through the social media footprint. They're still not saying for sure where the gun came from, how that 15-year-old was able to obtain it.

But as you had mentioned, Boris, the police chief did touch on some questions around motive. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF SON BARNES, MADISON, WISCONSIN POLICE: We know a document has been widely shared on social media. At this time, we cannot verify its authenticity. We have detectives working today to determine where this document originated and who actually shared it online.

The process for doing that is looking at original documents that may have been taken from the suspect's home, looking at information that may be on laptops or on computer to determine if this document originated from our suspect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILD: We continue to ask the chief if there's any possibility that the parents here will be charged at this point. He says they have no indication that there will be charges, but certainly that is what he had said earlier today, but that they are keeping every possibility on the table at this point, Brianna and Boris. And Whitney, the chief also made an important clarification about who called 911. We initially thought it was a second grader. It was not.

WILD: That's right. The police chief had said last night that it was a second grader from another classroom who had called 911. Today, he's clarifying that, saying it was his mistake. In fact, it was a second grade teacher who called 911. An important clarification there, Boris, but it certainly does not diminish the horror of the day when you consider how many kids were there, how many kids heard those gunshots and how many kids are still injured.

SANCHEZ: Absolutely. Whitney Wild, live for us from Madison. Thank you so much.

Next, where did that 15-year-old Madison school shooter get the gun used in this shooting? The ATF is helping police trace the weapon and the agency's director is going to join us live.

[15:15:04]

KEILAR: Plus, the Manhattan DA is about to give an update on the Luigi Mangione case. We're going to bring that to you live as soon as it happens.

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[15:19:36]

SANCHEZ: More breaking news into CNN. We've learned that Luigi Mangione is not going to fight extradition to New York. This comes as we learn that the 26-year-old has been indicted for murder in the first degree. And as we await a news conference this hour from Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg, we're also following new details in the deadly school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin.

[15:20:00]

Right now, as police sift through evidence, they're not only looking into why a 15-year-old killer gunned down a teacher and fellow students, but also how she managed to get a hold of the weapon to do it.

Let's discuss with Steven Dettelbach. He's the director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms - and Explosives as well. He was also the U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Ohio for seven years before that.

Sir, thank you so much for being with us. I forgot to mention explosives in the introduction. No small part of your work, obviously. But we know that the ATF is assisting Madison Police in trying to trace this weapon, a handgun that the 15-year-old had. Can you give us any update on the status of that?

STEVEN DETTELBACH, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS & EXPLOSIVES (ATF): So I can't comment on that particular case. I can tell you what usually happens in these kinds of matters. We work with our state and local law enforcement partners on many, many mass casualty and many, many school shooting and other shooting incidents. And one of the things, the many things that they might ask us to do is to follow the gun is a part of the investigation.

So, for instance, ATF responded to Butler, Pennsylvania, and worked with the Pennsylvania State Police there and the Secret Service and identified the person who shot Donald Trump that day in under half an hour. We use the same tracing technique to help our colleagues in New York catch the Brooklyn subway shooter to identify the person who was the mass killer in the July 4th parade in Highland Park, Illinois.

So this is a tool that we use where we can use crime gun intelligence, we call it, to try and follow that gun and that can be a very important lead.

SANCHEZ: I understand that the suspect's family is fully cooperating with the investigation. I understand, again, you can't divulge specific details as where things stand right now. How much of that cooperating with officials is directly with the ATF and if there is a lot of involvement by the ATF in interviewing the parents and - et cetera.

In the past, what kind of challenges have your agents faced when dealing with a situation like this where a child has committed a heinous act and the parents then have to sort of deal with the ramifications of it?

DETTELBACH: Well, look, every case, every crime, every shooting is different and - meaning that ATF's role may be different. We work very closely with our federal partners and with our local partners. Part of the DNA of ATF is that bond with our state and local partners. And also the facts are different, right?

So we were involved in the investigation in Michigan, for instance, of the school shooting ...

SANCHEZ: Oxford High ...

DETTELBACH: ... yes, which led to charges against the parents. That's one set of facts. But each and every one of these families and sets of facts is totally different. There's no one playbook except to follow the facts wherever they go and to try to figure out what happened.

SANCHEZ: Quickly, how soon do you anticipate that information will be released to the public about the gun?

DETTELBACH: I have absolutely no way of predicting that.

SANCHEZ: Sure.

DETTELBACH: In every - again, each one of these matters is different. In Butler, Pennsylvania, there was a congressional investigation going on.

SANCHEZ: Right.

DETTELBACH: The shooter was dead. You know, in other cases, there's a live case that's pending ...

SANCHEZ: Sure.

DETTELBACH: ... before the courts, which means we're very limited, so really - it really does depend.

SANCHEZ: Director, I have two more questions for you. First, I was struck when it was announced that the suspect used a nine millimeter handgun. And perhaps it's because I'm jaded because we've seen so many of these shootings take place before and often it's a larger caliber weapon, oftentimes an assault rifle. Does the kind of weapon give you any insight as to a potential motive?

DETTELBACH: I don't think so. Again, not talking about this case, but in general, a lot of crimes are committed with handguns. Look, there's a lot of obviously law abiding gun owners out there. At ATF, what we spend all day with the - by the way, I've led that agency for two and a half years. The people there are absolutely incredible. They're heroes. They run toward gunfire every day to protect total strangers.

But the kind of gun is just one part of the story, right?

SANCHEZ: Mm-hmm.

DETTELBACH: And so many, many ...

SANCHEZ: Sure.

DETTELBACH: ... many crimes are committed with handguns still. Of course, it's the most prevalent crime gun that we see. But again, it depends so much on what access the person has. It depends on what their goal is ...

SANCHEZ: Multitude of practice, yes.

DETTELBACH: ... a multitude of factors.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Director, this is the 83rd school shooting carried out this year. That is the highest on record since CNN has been keeping track going back to 2008. Just on a human level, how does that make you feel?

DETTELBACH: Oh, my gosh. As a parent, you know, it makes you feel absolutely horrible. Look, I mean, when I started this job, we - just coming out of the pandemic, gun crime and violent crime was at his historic spike. The last two years, it has really come down. And this year, I think at the end of the year, we're going to find it - the third year - it really came down.

[15:25:08]

But that should not give us comfort. Tens of thousands of people in this country are still dying from firearms violence every single year. And for the families in Madison, all over this country, I can tell you that, of course, my prayers go out to them. ATF's prayers go up. But the one thing I want them to understand is that ATF, we're sending more than our prayers. We're sending our people. We're risking our lives. And we're trying to use the most modern investigative technologies to work with our partners to catch the shooters and to stop them from shooting again, which, by the way, so many of them. Once you're a shooter, most of the evidence shows that you'll shoot again.

SANCHEZ: Wow.

DETTELBACH: So by interrupting the shooting cycle, identifying them with our local partners and getting them off the streets, we can actually punish them for what they did and hopefully prevent the next shooting.

SANCHEZ: ATF Director, Steven Dettelbach, thank you so much for the time. We appreciate you joining us.

DETTELBACH: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Still plenty more news to come. We are awaiting an update from the Manhattan DA on the Luigi Mangione case. As we learn, he is not going to fight extradition to New York. That story and more in just moments.

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[15:28:23]

KEILAR: Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., President-elect Trump's pick to lead the nation's Health and Human Services department, is back on Capitol Hill today trying to tamp down concerns about his history of vaccine skepticism after reports that his attorney petitioned the FDA to pull its approval of the polio vaccine in 2022, now saying that he's all for the polio shot.

Republican senator, John Kennedy, told CNN he's keeping an open mind about RFK, Jr., but he did offer this advice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): He should fire his lawyer, the one that petitioned the FDA to get rid of the polio vaccine. He should call him up, his lawyer, call his lawyer up and say, look, man, stop dipping into your ketamine stash. Polio vaccine has saved hundreds and hundreds of millions of lives in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Republican congressman, Ryan Zinke in Montana is with us now. He was, of course, secretary of the interior during former President Trump's - President-elect Trump's first administration. So he knows the confirmation process well. Thank you for taking the time to be with us.

REP. RYAN ZINKE (R-MT): Well, great to be with you.

KEILAR: And first off, vaccines, because that is a very big issue. And you're seeing that now on both sides of the aisle. Do you have concerns about RFK, Jr. when it comes to vaccines?

ZINKE: No, I don't. Because, look, he's 70 years old. He does pull ups. You know, I'm a former SEAL, right? He obviously is doing something right. And, you know what, I think our medical ...

KEILAR: What does that have to do with vaccines with all due respect?

ZINKE: Well - but you - look at health care, all right?

[15:30:00]

What he's focusing on some important things. How about nutrition? How about start earlier? The vaccinations, I'm glad he backed off.