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Interview with Rep. Ryan Zinke (R-MT): Vaccine Skeptic RFK Jr. on Capitol Hill in HHS Secretary Bid; New York Authorities Give Update on CEO Murder Case; Luigi Mangione Indicted in Murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired December 17, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

REP. RYAN ZINKE (R-MT): ... and important things. How about nutrition? How about start earlier?

The vaccinations, I'm glad he backed off. You know, polio vaccination is a proven science. It's been around a long time. You know, our founding fathers had vaccinations, you know, the smallpox. So you look at look at forward.

What I like about Kennedy, though, is this shake it up. Let's talk about nutrition earlier. Let's talk about, you know, additives that may do harm. Let's talk about the pharmaceuticals.

Let's talk about shaking up health care. I want good health care. You know, some on the other side want free health care. I don't think free health care is as important as good health care. So if he shakes it up a little, I'm good with it.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: What about his position on abortion? Do you have concerns about that?

ZINKE: Well, abortion has been shown that is a state's right. And so on the abortion issue, let's put it where it belongs in the states. You know, Montana just went through a federal election.

I'm comfortable where Montana is on it because I represent Montana. And I think the abortion issue on the national level, I don't -- I don't see it will appear up where it's where it's a threat.

KEILAR: That's interesting, as you because Montana's, as you mentioned, voted to protectively enshrine it up to viability in the state constitution last month. RFK has taken some different positions, but he was certainly initially for abortion rights access. He did commit to a three month national ban, but his campaign while he was running quickly backpedaled on that.

Do you think that RFK may actually reflect more where the country is on abortion?

ZINKE: Well, I think the country is where the states are. And I'm comfortable that, you know, Montana up front, you know, Montana wasn't where I was on the issue, certainly. But it's where Montana is. And each of the states has a has a different look at it, perhaps. And I think I'm good. On this on this issue I think it's important the states have that say. And we're seeing that across the country.

KEILAR: We heard from Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana on vaccines. He also told CNN he's heard concerns in his home state about Kennedy's stance on genetically modified crops, which is something that can be an issue in your state as well. And RFK Jr. is generally distrustful of GMOs. Your voting record is different on that. Do you have concerns?

ZINKE: I think it should be looked at and debated. You know, sometimes the science isn't clear on these things. And again, to shake it up and say that, let's look at the evidence again. Let's go back to what the science says beyond politics and let's get down to what science is.

But I think the core of it is, look, America is stronger, better if we're healthier. And what promotes health and what I really like about it is this talk about nutrition. Let's talk about physical fitness.

KEILAR: But that's not -- back to -- back to GMOs. That's not where he is. Like, for instance, when you were secretary of the interior, the Trump administration overturned the Obama era ban on GMOs in wildlife refuges where you had growers with access to leasing agricultural land.

Farmers often rely on GMOs. Lawmakers in your state were split when there was this issue being litigated in in Congress. You voted for a bill to make GMO labeling optional for food companies. That is not at all where RFK Jr. is. And he's going to be in charge of HHS.

ZINKE: Well, he's going to be in charge. He's going to have to listen to the science that I see on GMO. There's no nutritional difference between a GMO product.

You know, but it's sometimes you look at, you know, as secretary of interior, they were not planting cornfields on battlefields because they couldn't find organic seeds. Come on, let's have an adult discussion on things. And this fall, the science where it is, if a GMO product has been around a long time and there's science that says it is safe and proven, and many of these are OK.

And remember, GMO itself, I mean, the original corn out of South America was a lot different than it is today. And sometimes you can accelerate that process through science and get a better product.

KEILAR: Switching gears a little bit, it is the end of the year. We have so much to look forward to, the holidays, the new year and, of course, spending showdown potentially. But it's looking right now like you have a deal in Congress for this December 21st spending deadline.

And the speaker, some conservatives feel, has been ceding too much ground to Democrats when it comes to getting this passed. Do you share those concerns?

ZINKE: Well, the original deal that was presented was we're going to be tight on a continuing resolution, but not add policy riders. I think he's walking a very careful line on making sure we don't include those policy riders that either side would object to. I personally disagree with the CR --

KEILAR: You disagree with it. But you House Republicans opposed and raising the specter of --

[15:35:02]

I'm so sorry to interrupt, but we actually have to go to New York because there's a press conference on the Luigi Mangione case. Here is D.A. Alvin Bragg.

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Good afternoon. I'm Alvin Bragg, Manhattan district attorney. Honored and privileged to be joined by Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch.

First and foremost, I want to extend my deepest condolences to Mr. Thompson's loved ones and colleagues. His family deserves our respects as they continue to grieve. Our work will never be able to undo the fact that a life was lost.

We are here to announce that Luigi Mangione, the defendant, is charged with one count of murder in the first degree and two counts of murder in the second degree. Including one count of murder in the second degree as an act of terrorism for the brazen, targeted, and premeditated shooting of Brian Thompson, who as you know was the CEO of UnitedHealthcare. This case was made possible by the collaborative efforts of the phenomenal public servants you see before you today and so many others who are not here.

I'm honored to lead the Manhattan District Attorney's Office and privileged to serve alongside Assistant District Attorneys Joel Seidemann, Kristin Bailey and Zachary Kaplan, who were working from the outset, hand in hand with the greatest police department in the world. Chief of our trial division, Lisa DelPizzo, and the Deputy Chief, Chris Prevost, provided sage oversight and direction. And I want to acknowledge our high technology analysis unit. There was a lot to be processed here, Steve Moran in particular who heads that, and Marko Papic.

We are privileged here at the DA's office to work every day with the phenomenal public servants at the NYPD. It has been a distinct pleasure to work besides Commissioner Tisch, an exemplary partner.

And Chief of Detectives, Joseph Kenny, almost every day we're in touch. And his leadership is second to none. And then Deputy Commissioner Rebecca Weiner, who as I tell her, there are a lot of challenging things happening in the world and I sleep better at night knowing that she is the Deputy Commissioner in charge of terrorism.

The detectives on this, out doing the courageous frontline work, Detective Oscar Diaz, Detective Curcio, exemplary, exemplary, the finest. It wasn't just those of us here in New York. I want to acknowledge the great work of our partners in Altoona, the Altoona Police Department, the Blair County District Attorney's Office, the governors of New York and Pennsylvania, the FBI, and of course the brave members of the public who answered the call when our great commissioner put out the call for their assistance.

This was a frightening, well-planned, targeted murder that was intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation. It occurred in one of the most bustling parts of our city, threatening the safety of local residents and tourists alike, commuters and business people just starting out on their day.

Let me say a bit more about the charges. They include one count of murder in the first degree as a killing and furtherance of terrorism, two counts of murder in the second degree. One charge of the killing was done as an act of terrorism and the second pertaining to the fact that the killing was intentional. The maximum penalty possible for murder in the first degree and murder in the second degree as an act of terrorism is life without parole. The maximum penalty for murder in the second degree is 25 years to life.

There are additional counts as well. A number of criminal possession of weapon charges, two counts in the second degree, four counts in the third degree, one count in the fourth degree, and a count of criminal possession of a forged instrument in the second degree.

Let me tell you a bit about the facts. On November 24th, we alleged that the defendant arrived in New York City to murder Brian Thompson.

[15:40:00]

After the defendant arrived city on a bus at Port Authority, he checked into the hostel on the Upper West Side using the name Mark Rosario with a fake New Jersey ID.

On the morning of December 4th, the defendant left the hostel just after 5:30 a.m. and traveled to Midtown. For nearly an hour, we alleged the defendant waited in the area near the Hilton Hotel waiting for Mr. Thompson to appear. From 6:38 a.m. to 6:44 a.m., the defendant stood across from the entrance of the hotel on West 54th Street when he saw Mr. Thompson, he crossed the street and approached him from behind. We allege he then took out a 9-millimeter 3D-printed ghost gun equipped with a 3D-printed suppressor and shot him once in the back and once in the leg.

The defendant then fled northeast on 54th Street and took an e-bike uptown before getting into a taxi that took him to West 178th Street and Amsterdam Avenue.

On December 9th, the defendant was spotted at McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania. The local police were notified, he was arrested, and he was found with a 9-millimeter handgun, a suppressor, two ammunition magazines, and the same fake New Jersey ID he used at the hostel.

I want to say a word about ghost guns. These weapons are increasingly proliferating throughout New York City and the entire country involving technology will only make this problem worse. Last year, over 80 ghost guns and ghost gun parts were recovered in Manhattan alone. The NYPD and the Manhattan DA's office have been leading in the interdiction of these ghost guns. And one thing I want to make clear, they are un-serialized, they can be printed out, but as this case tragically makes clear, they are just as deadly as traditional firearms. This will remain a priority for us here in Manhattan.

Finally, I know there have been questions about the extradition process. The latest that I can offer you is that the defendant is currently scheduled to appear in court in Pennsylvania on Thursday morning, first for a preliminary hearing on his Pennsylvania charges.

Immediately to follow that will be an extradition hearing. We have indications that the defendant may waive that hearing, in which case he'd be brought to New York forthwith. In any event, we have been preparing on parallel paths and before the hearing we'll send to the governor of the state of New York the paperwork that would be necessary if he does not waive during that hearing.

I now want to turn over to our great commissioner and when I do so, I want to thank her for her partnership, not only on this matter, but on all we do every day together. Thank you.

JESSICA TISCH, NYPD COMMISSIONER: Good afternoon, everyone. The unsealing of today's indictment brings us one step closer to securing justice for Brian Thompson and his family and affirming the primacy of the rule of law in the city of New York. NYPD detectives worked tirelessly to piece this case together and along the way the Manhattan DA's office made sure we had every legal tool available to us.

Whether quickly providing subpoenas to assist with our evidence collection or traveling with us to Altoona, Pennsylvania last week after the apprehension, our partnership made this a successful investigation. So I'd like to thank District Attorney Bragg and his team for their work in bringing this case forward.

Part of that work included the relentless collection and analysis of surveillance video by our detectives, which ultimately produced a clear image of our suspect. That image was shared far and wide through the media and thanks to an observant McDonald's customer and the employee who alerted the police, Mr. Mangione was quickly brought into custody. This outcome is why we always emphasize the critical role of the public in our public safety mission. So again, I want to thank everyone who saw something, said something, and did something. That is why we have a suspect in custody today.

As DA Bragg said, Luigi Mangione is now formally charged and indicted for murder. And let me be perfectly clear, in the nearly two weeks since Mr. Thompson's killing, we have seen a shocking and appalling celebration of cold-blooded murder. Social media has erupted with praise for this cowardly attack. People ghoulishly plastered posters threatening the CEOs, other CEOs, with an X over Mr. Thompson's picture, as though he was some sort of a sick trophy. And yesterday, the New York Post reported that some extreme activists were circulating a deck of cards with other most wanted CEOs to be targeted for assassination.

These are the threats of a lawless, violent mob who would trade in their own vigilantism for the rule of law that protects us all. Let me say this plainly, there is no heroism in what Mangione did. This was a senseless act of violence.

It was a cold and calculated crime that stole a life and put New Yorkers at risk. We don't celebrate murders and we don't lionize the killing of anyone. And any attempt to rationalize this is vile, reckless, and offensive to our deeply held principles of justice.

Now, as we await the extradition process in Pennsylvania to complete, we continue our public safety work here at home. That includes our focus on the growing threat of ghost guns, one of which was used in this attack. The NYPD remains committed to tracking down and removing these untraceable weapons from our streets.

And we will do that work hand in hand with District Attorney Bragg here in Manhattan and in every other borough to ensure that those who possess, distribute, and use these weapons are held fully accountable.

Finally, I want to again thank every member of the NYPD, uniform, and civilian working on this case. Led, of course, by our great Chief Kenny, whether in Midtown North Squad, Homicide, Crime Scene Unit, Intelligence Bureau, and everywhere else.

All of you contributed to today's indictment and you've brought the Thompson family one step closer to justice in this case. Thank you.

(INAUDIBLE)

BRAGG: Sure. So, you know, in its most basic terms, this was a killing that was intended to evoke terror. And we've seen that reaction.

You know, the statutory elements we can go into, but its most basic term, that's what this is. This was not an ordinary killing, not to suggest that any killing is ordinary, but this was extraordinary. And the New York State Legislature has, you know, set out both the paths that we talk about, both the murder one and murder two. And this, we allege, is certainly with squarely within those statutes which talk about intending to do exactly what we saw happen here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in November 6th. Was the FBI (INAUDIBLE). (INAUDIBLE) Luigi's mother, to find (INAUDIBLE), he was aware of this but he was arrested and (INAUDIBLE) in Boston at the time.

JOSEPH KENNY, CHIEF OF DETECTIVES, NYPD: So, the original missing report took place back in November 18th in San Francisco. The sergeant that was involved in that case reached out to the San Francisco field office and said, hey, basically, I'm working on a missing case. I saw the photograph that was distributed by the NYPD, there's a resemblance. That tip was forwarded to us close to 45 hours after the incident took place. It showed up to a TFO, which is a task force officer.

We have NYPD officers embedded with the FBI. They received that tip. It was one of four tips that they had received that day, and they were vetting it.

Part of that vetting process was that they reached out to Mangione's mother in San Francisco very late on the 7th. They had a conversation where she didn't indicate that it was her son in the photograph, but she said it might be something that she could see him doing. So, that information was going to be passed along to the detectives the next morning, but fortunately, we apprehended him before we could act on that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The commissioner has talked about how the defendant's been lionized and celebrated.

[15:50:00]

I'm wondering how concerned you are about a potential jury knowing that someone on that jury would be someone to get lionized and celebrated?

BRAGG: Well, I want to echo the commissioner's words and concerns, which I think were put forth beautifully. We see a lot in these jobs. I meet with the families of homicide victims, and I just can't wrap my head around the notion that someone is celebrating this.

To your specific question, we're at the beginning of a litigation now with our charge. We have a phenomenal trial team in place, led by ADA Joe Seidman, who has been in this office for more than 40 years and handled some very challenging matters. We have a wide year process in place.

I have faith in our jury system to select 12 people who can be fair and impartial, but we'll move forward, and that's something well down the road, but we'll be ready when that time comes.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Two questions, if possible. One will be about Mr. Thompson's family, but the first, I want just maybe to explain more to viewers how you come to the conclusion that this is an act of terrorism. I think it's an important part of this, and so I'm hoping maybe you can explain that a little more and just sort of define maybe the statute here a little bit.

BRAGG: Sure, and my point, I mean, the statute talks about attempts to influence or coerce a civilian population. The statute talks about intending to influence a policy of government, and it talks about seeking to put forth things sort of similar to that by murder. So the statute, the plain language of the statute is clear.

Obviously, we've charged it, the grand jury has voted on it, and we intend to go forward and prove it. But I think it does help to take a step back and think about the proof in the case, some of the writings. I'm not going to get into too much of that, but in the actual reaction, you know, in the middle of Midtown, the beginning of a busy day, tourists, commuters, business people, the intent was to sow terror.

PROKUPECZ: Just on Mr. Thompson's family, sadly, as you say, not a lot of focus has been given to Mr. Thompson or his family, and I'm wondering if the victim services folks or any of the folks in your office have been talking to them and what that's been like, and if there's anything you can say about that.

BRAGG: I'm not going to talk about communications with the family other than to say that we have a robust survivor services staff here that is second to none, but I would not talk about communications with any family. I don't think it'd be appropriate, but I appreciate your concern.

PROKUPECZ: Well, it's just because, like you're saying, there's been so much focus on the suspect here, and it's quite different than what we normally see.

BRAGG: I echo what the commissioner said, and the sentiment of your question, my heart goes out to it. This is a significant piece of what we do here, is we center the trauma of survivors and victims and their families. Significant piece of what I do is sit across the table and look people in the eye, and when appropriate, if they want to, offer a hug, and we have dedicated advocates and counselors and great staff that focuses on that.

So I agree completely with you, and I wish, I wish that that's where the public's focus was exclusively. That's where it should be. That's where it is here in addition to obviously the facts and the law and the case, but because of respect for where your question is coming from, I'm not going to get into communications.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL, (D) NEW YORK: Yes, absolutely, and we've seen a real increase, sustained increase since December 4th in concern, not just from CEOs, but from corporations broadly, and so going back to the DA's point, you know, the intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, which is of course at the root of our state terrorism statute, is very much borne out in this reaction, and for good reason. We've had a torrent of online threats. We've had real world activity that the police commissioner flagged, which is abhorrent and it causes concern.

[15:55:00]

So we have done a lot to work with corporate security partners, with whom we partner on a daily basis in this city, at the city level, at the state level, trying to make sure that everybody has the best practices that they need, that they know where to flag, not just general ambient concerns but specific threats that they might be receiving, that a few weeks ago they might have written off as just noise in the online environment, that they now take seriously. So these are ongoing conversations that we have and thanks to all the work that we do together every day, we're quite confident that concerns and threats are going to be appropriately directed our way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

BRAGG: So I'll address the first piece. The first degree murder statute has a number of subsections, they're sort of clearly delineated and they are reserved for, you know, the most abhorrent conduct, killing a police officer, serial killing, and the terrorism is one subsection of that. And so I would say fortunately, that's not happening a lot.

Taking a step back, I don't, I can't think of another office that is more equipped to handle a terrorism charge. We have a great terrorism unit, we were at the forefront of getting the statute passed. Within the last two years, we've tried two very significant terrorism cases, one involving an English-speaking operative based in Jamaica and another involving someone who was here and funding overseas terrorism by cryptocurrency.

So we have the expertise and as I mentioned, the expertise on this team and so we're prepared to go forward. Yes, I'm not going to go beyond what's in the filing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

BRAGG: So as a matter of practice, I don't talk about sentencing outside of court for the first matter and certainly not at the initial stages of a matter.

But I think you can tell the seriousness with which we take this matter by the way in which it's charged. The murder in the second degree actually has a mandatory life without a parole sentence, no discretion for the judge at all. So that's the maximum there. But I'm not going to go beyond that. We will first get the defendant to New York. We will have him arraigned. We will be before our judge. We will engage in pre-trial litigation. If there's a trial, we're ably equipped to do that.

And then we will proceed to sentencing at which point we'll make our arguments in court. Thank you all so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, sir.

BRAGG: I'm just taking your book.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper and we're going to start with breaking news on two fronts. In a moment, the latest details on that horrific school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin.

But first, the major announcement we just heard from prosecutors in New York and the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Moments ago, the Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg announced that the suspect, Luigi Mangione, will be charged with multiple counts of murder. Prosecutors say it was Mangione who shot and killed Brian Thompson outside the Hilton Hotel in Manhattan nearly two weeks ago.

He led police on a six-day manhunt, various surveillance cameras capturing Mangione's movements. Police arrested him Monday of last week after a tip from a McDonald's employee in Altoona, PA. Detectives say Mangione had a 3D printed gun in his possession at the time of an arrest. And since then, he's been behind bars in Pennsylvania.

But even before today's murder charges, an extradition hearing was set to take place tomorrow. And Mangione's new high-profile New York lawyer, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, tells CNN that Mangione will not fight extradition.

But let's bring in our experts, CNN's John Miller, the former Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and Counterterrorism of the New York Police Department, and Stacey Schneider, a criminal defense trial attorney. And John Miller, let's start with these charges now, first- degree murder and also murder, including terrorism charges. Tell us about that.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, first-degree murder, as the district attorney pointed out, is a rarely used charge. And what is interesting is that today, as the grand jury was sitting there in secret voting to hand up these indictments, Governor Kathy Hochul was running a conference call with the heads of health care companies and other CEOs and police officials talking about ...

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