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Dr. Paul Offit is Interviewed about Concerns over RFK Jr.; Numbers on TikTok; Jerry L. O'Connor is Interviewed about Wisconsin Shooting; Thomas Giuffra is Interviewed about Accusations against Combs. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired December 18, 2024 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Taken from a car dashcam - look at that there - on a nearby highway shows the plane in the sky just moments before that huge plume of smoke and explosion. The Cessna had been on a training flight near the Honolulu Airport, and we now have audio from the last communication the pilot had with air traffic control.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PILOT: We have a - we're out of control here.

AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL: OK (INAUDIBLE) if you can land, if you can level it off, that's fine, any runway, any place you can do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: That's a terrifying sound. No one was inside the building that the plane crashed into. Officials have not yet identified the two people who were killed in that crash.

All right, new details on the Madison school shooting ahead. How did students who were just feet away from the shooter manage to protect themselves?

And one senator now promising a top to bottom review of the science behind vaccines after meeting with Donald Trump's controversial pick to Health and Human Services secretary.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:35:37]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, RFK Jr. is returning to Capitol Hill again today to continue meeting with some of the senators who will decide his fate. Trump's pick to head up the Health and Human Services Department is trying to secure Republican Senate support. He's also trying to calm the growing concern around his record, his long history of denying medical science, promoting medical conspiracy theories, and declaring things like there's no vaccine that is safe and effective. He said that in July of 2023. And here he was while making the rounds on The Hill this week. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Kennedy, Senator Murkowski said that she wants you to say that - that vaccines save lives. Do you believe that vaccines save lives?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it your plan to end all childhood vaccines, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, have you talked about pesticides with any of the senators?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Want - what do you tell parents - what do you tell parents who are concerned about the prospect of getting rid of some vaccines?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that something you're discussing with senators, sir?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Joining me right now is a member of the FDA Vaccine Advisory Committee, the Director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital Philadelphia, Dr. Paul Offit.

Dr. Offit, thanks for coming back in. I want to go through with you some of what we're hearing is coming out of these meetings that Kennedy's having on the Hill.

Here's John Thune, top Republican in the Senate. He said, I think he understands the value and benefit that vaccines play and have played through the years preventing disease. Does Kennedy's record reflect that?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER AT CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL PHILADELPHIA: Not at all. He believes that we have simply traded in infectious diseases for chronic diseases. He thinks that vaccination and pasteurization have made us unhealthy. He has consistently said that vaccines don't work, that they're unsafe, and that when data show him that he's wrong, like the notion that MMR or measles, mumps, rubella vaccine causes autism, he simply doesn't believe it because he has a fixed, immutable belief system that he holds with the strength of a religious conviction. He is a virulent anti-vaccine activist. Why would we think he would behave any differently were he to be the head of Health and Human Services?

BOLDUAN: Which in that point is why I'm hoping you can translate or help me understand some of the other things coming out and being said from these meetings. Senator Josh Hawley said this of his meeting, that Kennedy wants a quote, unquote, "top-to-bottom review of the sciences behind vaccines, saying he just made the point that the number of vaccines has gotten -- required vaccines for children in particular -- has exploded, and he said he wanted to go back through carefully the science on all of those. Add to that, Dr. Offit, what Rick Scott said of his meeting with RFK. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL): What he wants with vaccines is, which is what I believe in, is transparency. I think we need to know exactly with all vaccines what has been the research and, you know, do they work and what's your risk?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: I have heard this transparency line and this top-to-bottom review line more than once coming from RFK. And to remind everyone, you sit on the FDA Vaccine Advisory Committee. What is he getting at with this?

OFFIT: Do they work? We want to know whether or not they work? I mean, you have, take the hepatitis B vaccine, which was introduced in 1991. Prior to that introduction, 18,000 children less than 10 years of age would get hepatitis B, which would often lead to liver cancer or chronic liver disease, cirrhosis. We've essentially eliminated that. Rubella virus, which would, when it infected pregnant women, would cause 20,000 cases of birth defects every year, blindness, deafness, heart defects.

We eliminated that virus from this country in 2005. Measles would cause 48,000 hospitalizations and 500 deaths and 1,000 cases of encephalitis, meaning brain swelling every year. We eliminated that disease by 2000, but now it's come back to some extent because a critical percentage of parents have chosen not to vaccinate their children.

Transparency, I mean, anytime a vaccine is put onto the schedule, you have to prove that it doesn't interfere with the safety or immunogenicity profile of existing vaccines and that those existing vaccines don't interfere with the safety or immunogenicity profile of that vaccine.

[08:40:02]

And when vaccines roll out, they very are quickly tested in millions of children. You saw that with the COVID vaccines.

When the COVID vaccines rolled out in December of 2020, very quickly you found out that the mRNA vaccines were a very rare cause of myocarditis, inflammation of the heart muscle, 1 in 50,000. When the J&J vector virus vaccine rolled out in February of 2021, you found out very quickly that it was a very, very rare cause, 1 in 250,000 of clotting. Of course, they're tested for safety and all those data are open to everybody. I don't know what they're talking about.

BOLDUAN: And if everyone's wondering, how can Dr. Offit say all of these numbers so quickly? It's because this is real data. These are real numbers. This is real and available research and data that has, you have seen, and is available to the public. One thing that I wanted to ask you about, Tommy Tuberville said that

he and RFK, they discussed how they grew up in a generation where they received just three vaccines. He talked about tuberculosis, smallpox, polio, and noting how that has now grown to the dozens. And the way Tuberville talked about it to CNN is that he says that he wants parents to understand the good, the bad, and the ugly with vaccines rather than forcing parents to give them to kids. What do you hear in that?

OFFIT: So Tommy Tuberville said, look, RFK Jr. and I only got three vaccines and we're both fine. That's called survivor bias. I mean, the notion is that, you know, we were fine, so therefore everybody else is fine. This thing about transparency is very upsetting to me because you can see all the data that everybody else sees. It's all open to the public. I mean, when we, the FDA Vaccine Advisory Committee reviewed, for example, the COVID vaccines in December of 2020, we reviewed about 800 pages of data.

That was all on FDA's website for anybody to look at. I don't know what Tommy Tuberville was talking about, but one thing that Tommy Tuberville said that should be a key to exactly what RFK Jr. is going to do is he said, I just talked to RFK Jr. And he -- we talked about how do we really need all these vaccines? That tells you everything about what RFK Jr. is about to do. He is about to do everything he can to destroy the vaccine program in this country. And I think it is a dangerous time to be a child in the United States of America.

BOLDUAN: It makes me so sad to hear you say that your entire career is based on trying to protect children of America. And that, and again, it sounds like, listen to what RFK is saying. He's telling you what he's going to do. It seems to be part of the message here as he goes and returns now to the Hill for more meetings with more senators.

Dr. Offit, thank you so much. We'll continue this conversation.

Sara.

SIDNER: All right, President-elect Donald Trump appears to have flip flopped on TikTok. He was then - when he was in office, pushing for a ban in 2020. And now he says he has a warm spot in his heart for the social media platform and met with its CEO. The platform is facing a looming ban that could begin just a day after Donald Trump takes office.

CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten is here.

Harry, the popularity of the app might just be potentially playing a role in all this. Just how popular is TikTok at this moment?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes, I mean, look, there's politics at play here, right? And, you know, you go back nearly - I can't believe March of 2023 is nearly two years ago. But regardless, support banning TikTok in March of 2023. Look, it was right at 50 percent. Look at how this number has dropped over time. You go to October of 2023, already dropped to 38 percent. Now you go August of 2024, it's just 32 percent. So, surprise, surprise, surprise, politics may be playing a role here.

Supporting a ban of TikTok was quite popular a little under two years ago, and now it's just only about a third proposition here, which is 32 percent supporting it. No wonder Donald Trump might be changing his mind on this issue.

SIDNER: That was my thought.

Who is TikTok most popular with? What are we looking as far as age and who - who's using it?

ENTEN: Yes, all right, so, look, it might not be so much of a surprise if you understand TikTok.

SIDNER: No.

ENTEN: You watch the videos on there. You understand that I'm not exactly quite sure how to work TikTok because I have aged out of the age 18 to 29 year old group. Look, 59 percent of those under the age of 30 who are adults use TikTok. It drops down to 40 percent, drops down to 26 percent among age 50 to 64, and then you get to age 65 plus, and its just 10 percent. Donald Trump likes the youngins, and the youngins like TikTok.

SIDNER: I have to say, this just tells you a lot about generational gaps here, right?

ENTEN: Yes. They - they watch television -

SIDNER: This is why we argue.

ENTEN: Yes, that's exactly right. They watch television. They watch TikTok.

SIDNER: All right, so, why is it that Donald Trump might have a soft spot for - for young people?

ENTEN: Yes, why does Donald Trump want what the youngins want? It's because, look, if you look at the Trump versus Democrat margin, you look at voters under the age of 25, you go back to 2020, look, Joe Biden won this group overwhelmingly.

[08:45:09]

SIDNER: Yes.

ENTEN: Look at that, by 34 points.

You look at 2024. Look, Kamala Harris won it. But just by 11. Trump gained more among voters under the age of 25 than any other age group. If you think of young people as being Democrats, while they may still lean Democrat, not in any way in the same numbers that they used to just even four years ago. Donald Trump doing considerably better among younger voters. And I think that is part of the reason why he wants to do what younger voters want to do.

SIDNER: Very interesting, Harry Enten, thank you so much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

SIDNER: Appreciate you.

ENTEN: John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, this morning, families in Madison, Wisconsin, waiting to learn more from police after a teenage girl opened fire on a classroom inside her private Christian school.

With me now is Wisconsin State Assemblyman Jerry O'Connor who says the shooting happened just outside his great niece's classroom. Representative, thank you so much for being with us.

Let me just first ask -- you have a great niece and nephew at this school. How are they this morning?

JERRY L. O'CONNOR (R), WISCONSIN STATE ASSEMBLYMAN: They're doing fine. I think it's going to be a little bit of time as they reflect back on what happened. My nephew could hear bodies hitting the floor. My great niece across the hall could hear gunshots.

And as I understand it there were nine people in the room and the shooter shot eight of them, and the final shot was to her own head. So it's a terribly sad situation.

I also have a brother-in-law that's a basketball and golf coach there, and I have a brother whose brother-in-law is the school principal. So I have a lot of connections to this school and there are a lot of hurting families in that Madison area today.

BERMAN: Look, I'm so sorry that they went through that, and I particularly grieve along with your great niece and nephew.

It must have been hard for you when you were getting word of this shooting given you have so many connections with the school.

O'CONNOR: It was. In fact, I was sitting in a restaurant in Nashville on Monday morning and I looked at a news headline that said there had been shootings at Abundant Life Christian School -- more to follow. So we literally were watching this as it unfolded or listening to it as -- once we hit the road back to Wisconsin. So it's pretty distressing for anyone that's associated with that school.

BERMAN: Look, questions then turn to how to prevent this in the future. And one of the things that has shifted in the legal landscape over the last several years is the culpability of parents involved. What they could have known or should have known or did know.

This is in the early stages of the investigation, and without getting into specifics of this case, as a lawmaker, how much responsibility generally speaking do you think parents can or should bear?

O'CONNOR: That's a challenging question in a broad sense. I think we really need to have a protocol with law enforcement that has some parameters as to how we look at this. Certainly, our district attorney in Dane County and state attorney general are looking at this as well as it would be throughout Wisconsin. We want to learn from this experience so it's not repeated in the future.

BERMAN: One of the things that's distressing -- and again, we don't know what it means as we've now seen a photo posted on the father -- the father of the shooter's social media page at a gun range, which a lot of people go to.

But the girl -- the shooter is wearing a t-shirt that has a band name. That band name's lyrics were cited by the Columbine shooters back in 1999. Now, we don't know if there's a direct connection, but it would seem a strange coincidence that she'd be wearing a t-shirt with an old band -- an old band that mattered to some of the more notorious school shooters out there.

It just does raise questions about whether -- what's influencing kids right now? What are their influences and how do we see them before it's too late?

O'CONNOR: I don't know if you've had a chance to see the manifesto that has been verified to have been penned by the shooter. But she was in social media and she literally lifts up and honored killers around the world. Not just killings or shootings here in America but in other parts of the world. So she was definitely in a bad place for anyone to be following these kinds of events, and that was part of her own planning process.

That is something we need to be looking at on the broad scale of how do you control messaging without controlling freedom of speech?

[08:50:09]

But these end up being dangerous circumstances for a very few individuals. But if that individual crosses a certain line, as evidenced in this manifesto, bad things happen.

BERMAN: Yeah. Again, last I heard the police have been careful to say they are working to confirm the authenticity of it -- who wrote it, how it was written, where it is. But it is one of the pieces of evidence they're digging into.

Wisconsin State Assemblyman Rep. Jerry O'Connor, thank you for being with us this morning. Appreciate it.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: God, his family's story also so terrifying, what so many families have had to live through there.

Ahead for us, three men accuse Sean "Diddy" Combs of drugging and sexually assaulting them. Their attorney is our guest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:55:02] SIDNER: A discovery hearing is scheduled for today in the federal investigation into sexual assault allegations against music mogul Sean "Diddy" Combs. More than 30 lawsuits have already been filed against him, alleging sexual assault and rape.

Three separate anonymous suits were filed just last week by men, accusing Combs of putting drugs in their drinks and then allegedly raping them.

The hip-hop star's attorney says these latest lawsuits are, quote, "full of lies." Combs has pleaded not guilty to all the federal charges that are against him. And he's talked about some of these civil suits as well.

He with me now is the attorney representing the latest three accusers, Thomas Giuffra.

Thank you so much for coming in.

THOMAS GIUFFRA, LAWYER FOR 3 OF SEAN COMBS' ACCUSERS: Thanks for having me.

SIDNER: First of all, I want to ask you, there are dozens of people coming forward. Some to you. Some to another attorney. But there are dozens of people. What stood out with these three men to you that made you say, you know what, we need to file this case?

GIUFFRA: The patterns. The patterns. Whenever you have a serial abuser they follow a pattern. Harvey Weinstein had a pattern, Sean Combs has a pattern. And with all three of them, the stories are a little different but the patterns always the same. Come into my orbit, have a drink, you get woozy, take a rest. Wake up to being sodomized. That was the pattern. And it was the same in every single story.

SIDNER: And the details that they told you, can you give us - me a sense of, was there some detail that sort of stuck with you that said, I have to - I have to go forward with this?

GIUFFRA: Well, I think the person who was gofer really struck me when he regained consciousness and Sean says to him, I'm almost done, hold still. And that struck me. That was a powerful recollection. And I was struck by it, and the - just the rawness and the arrogance, actually, that went along with it and the entitlement. So, that was the one that really stuck with me.

SIDNER: I want to ask you because your clients are filing, for now, anonymously.

GIUFFRA: Correct.

SIDNER: Why?

GIUFFRA: Every single one of them, after the rapes were threatened. They were threatened with physical harm. They were told if you do anything it's not going to be good for you. And Sean Combs is not somebody who runs around with a bunch of choir boys. And those threats are very real to all of these men.

One of them knew him from the neighborhood, knew the people he ran with, and knew that these were not empty threats. These were not a bunch of lawyers in offices somewhere. These are guys who can follow through, make your life, and cause you physical harm. So they were terrified.

SIDNER: You know the law better than I do, that defendants have to be able to face their accusers. In another case a judge did say, look, this is was filed anonymously but you now have to reveal your name. And she did, indeed, reveal her name. Are you clients willing, if that's what transpires, to finally -

(CROSSTALK)

GIUFFRA: If it comes to pass, that's a discussion we'll have to have. I think, my own personal opinion, as somebody who represents people who are the survivors of abuse, is there's another device by which the abusers tried to abuse them and intimidate them. So I think, frankly if it was me and I was in Washington or I was in Albany writing the law, I would say any abuser should be able to proceed anonymously. But that's just not the law. The leave it to a judge.

SIDNER: We know that there are several cases going simultaneously.

GIUFFRA: Correct.

SIDNER: Including a criminal case. Has anyone contacted you or your clients from the federal government, from federal investigations, to ask for details to -

(CROSSTALK)

GIUFFRA: Not at this time. Not at this time.

SIDNER: Not at this time. Okay.

GIUFFRA: Yes. But we only filed it last -- you know, in the last few days.

SIDNER: I know you saw what Combs has said about your clients. Full of lies. These stories are full of lies. What do you say to him and his attorney?

GIUFFRA: Well, what else are they going to say? They're not going to say they're true. They're going to say the typical thing that's said in every single one of these cases, that these are untrue. It's made up. It's phony. It's just a monetary shakedown. What else can they do? He's sitting in lockup in Brooklyn right now, charged with these very same things. And he really has no defense other than to badmouth the people who are suing him, badmouth the lawyers, and that's what he's doing.

SIDNER: But your case stands out in several ways but it highlights men --

GIUFFRA: Yes.

SIDNER: -- talking about, you know, what they say happened and talking about sexual abuse. How difficult is it for the clients to talk about sexual assault?

GIUFFRA: Well -

SIDNER: And how often have you - I mean, how rare is it for men to come forward?

GIUFFRA: Well, the one thing I've learned is statistically 9 percent of all rapes in this country involve men, that are reported. I think it's no different for men than women to come forward. I think anytime somebody's a victim of sex abuse it's difficult. It doesn't matter the gender.

SIDNER: Did they have difficulty speaking about the -

GIUFFRA: Well -

SIDNER: -- sexual abuse?

GIUFFRA: They did.

[08:59:58]

And thankfully I've done it a long enough time and I know how to speak to people. And I try to show them the empathy and listen to the story. And try to make them feel safe. Because it's really - they've lost all