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New Details on Wisconsin Shooter; Mangione Charged with Murder as Act of Terrorism; Eric Lipton is Interviewed about the Feds Scrutinizing Musk and SpaceX. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 18, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

THOMAS GIUFFRA, LAWYER FOR 3 OF SEAN COMBS' ACCUSERS: Thankfully I've done it a long enough time and I know how to speak to people. And I try to show them the empathy and listen to the story. And try to make them feel safe. Because it's really - they've lost all the power, that's the whole thing about sexual abuse. They take power away from these people. And to get them to kind of communicate can be challenging at times because it's difficult.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Thomas Giuffra, thank you so much --

GIUFFRA: Thank you so much for having me.

SIDNER: -- for telling the story.

GIUFFRA: All right.

SIDNER: Appreciate it.

GIUFFRA: Thank you.

SIDNER: A new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: A turbulent home life. There is new reporting about the 15 year old school shooter. What investigators are now looking into as they continue to search for a motive. Why a young girl would murder a teacher and a fellow student, and who could have stopped her?

Luigi Mangione has now been hit with a new indictment and charges out of New York. Prosecutors saying the murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO was also an act of terrorism.

And this term, brain rot, it's the term given for the minutes and hours that seem to just evaporate once you start mindlessly scrolling through your phone. This morning, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here to answer your questions about it all.

I'm Kate Bolduan, with Sara Sidner and John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SIDNER: This morning, police revealing very few details on what they might be learning about the Wisconsin school shooter. But we are learning the teen had an apparent turbulent home life. New reporting in "The Washington Post" that court documents now reveal the teen's parents were divorced and remarried multiple times, and that a custody agreement sometimes, quote, "forced her to move between their homes every two to three days."

Also, an alarming photo of the shooter posted in August by her father has now surfaced. It shows her at a shooting range, but she's wearing a t-shirt of a band whose lyrics were cited by the Columbine killers in 1999. Those two killers also wore the shirts with the band's name on them as well.

And moments ago, John spoke with a lawmaker about what his grand niece and nephew saw and heard during the school shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERRY L. O'CONNOR (R), WISCONSIN STATE ASSEMBLY: My nephew could hear bodies hitting the floor. My great niece, across the hall, could hear gunshots.

And as I understand it, there were nine people in the room and the shooter shot eight of them, and the final shot was to her own head. So it's a terribly sad situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Those students will never get over that. That's horrible.

Whitney Wild is live for us in Madison.

What are you learning this morning?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, again, according to "The Washington Post," there was this very chaotic childhood. And as part of one of the custody agreements, Natalie Rupnow, that 15-year-old who police have identified as the shooter here, was required to go to therapy. And again, Sara, according to "The Washington Post," that was in an effort to try to give the court better understanding of which parent she would live with. But what we know is that the custody agreement had her shuttling, as you said, between her parents' houses every two to three days.

CNN has also spoke with one of the students whose locker was right next to Natalie Rupnow's. Police had said she'd gone by Samantha. This child we spoke with said that she knew her as Sam and that she didn't really have a friend group, that she was new at the school. And this child that CNN spoke with didn't even know that her real name was Natalie, Sara.

And so, what is coming into clearer focus here is that this child had a chaotic, at best, home life and was at a new school and had not yet really blossomed socially. And, you know, typically when we see cases like this, some of these patterns are replicated across other school shootings. And what law enforcement has said over and over, without giving any specifics, just more generally, though, and other officials here in Wisconsin have made very clear, is that there are points along the timeline in which you can intervene before a mass shooting. That is certainly the case in other cases. And the question here is, where along this timeline could an intervention have occurred?

Law enforcement, at this point, still not revealing who owned the gun, how she got the gun. There are many more questions to answer here, Sara. And, of course, chief among them is the motive. Law enforcement has said that that was a mix of factors.

And then finally, Sara, there's a big question about whether or not this child targeted specific people in that classroom. Police have said, as far as they're concerned, everybody was a target. Everybody was in equal danger that day.

Here's what one parent told CNN about his son and his own experience that day.

[09:05:02]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BURBE, FATHER OF SEVENTH GRADE STUDENT: He was really sad to see many, many kids crying, not knowing what's going to happen and shaking. So, I stopped - I started helping them the way through the chapel. And as I see more police coming in and helping, I decided to go inside and help the staff of the - of the school be organized with the kids and - and comfort them. I found - I found Angel right there. I looked for him. And when I saw him, he was like a real peace moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILD: Sara, we know that a full-time teacher was killed and a teenage student was killed, but law enforcement has not released their names.

Sara.

SIDNER: Whitney Wild, thank you so much for your reporting on all this.

John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, with us now, retired FBI supervisory special agent Steve Moore and former FBI senior profiler and special agent Mary Ellen O'Toole.

Mary Ellen, you know, based on some of the details that are starting to emerge, "The Washington Post" talks about multiple divorces by the parent, a custody agreement that had her moving around every couple days, some of the statements from schoolmates and whatnot, what kind of a profile can you piece together?

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER SENIOR PROFILER AND SPECIAL AGENT, FBI: Well, there's really never one - one factor in a child's life, a student's life, that - that is the primary cause for what we saw the other day. But I'd be looking at both external and internal factors that contributed to her state of mind. So, clearly having a very contentious home life would have contributed to it. And - and that's what we know so far. So, the details of that home life are going to become really important. Was she the victim of some kind of physical abuse? What was - what were the factors that were going into that?

But also, what becomes important is - are other things that would have contributed to her state of mind. And that could have been how she felt about being in a new school, her own self-image. It's very likely that she was going through depression.

So, it's really an accumulation of factors that contributed to what we saw the other day. And that's why I think the chief said, it's not just one thing, it's multiple - multiple issues. And we see that in - in almost all of the school shootings.

BERMAN: So, Steve, from the beginning, the police have been very careful to describe or go into any detail about their conversations with the parents. One theory is because they didn't want to blow them up. I mean they were getting stuff from the parents, so they wanted to keep those discussions going. But now that it's several days in, and based on this new information, anything you can sense about what direction they're headed in with the parents?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: You know, it would be speculation right now, but I think, John, you're absolutely right, that when you have parents cooperating and speaking with you and allowing searches, things like that, you don't want to immediately go to the press and say, oh, by the way, these people who have been helping me, they're under investigation for yada, yada, yada. So, yes, you're going to be very careful with that.

But if you look in the underlying statements they've made, nobody's acting like it's a mystery where the gun came from.

BERMAN: Right.

MOORE: And we have evidence that - circumstantial evidence that Samantha was involved in shooting sports. So, it would surprise me if she got the gun from anywhere but the home.

BERMAN: Yes, again, one of the questions that hasn't been answered by police. But, as you say, they also haven't said it's a mystery. We don't know where they got the gun. They've just said they keep on analyzing that.

You talked about the photo at the gun range that was posted on the father's social media account. That in and of itself not unusual for parents with children.

What strikes a lot of people is the t-shirt that the girl is wearing, which has the name of a band. A band whose lyrics were cited by the Columbine killers in 1999. And, Mary Ellen O'Toole, I was on TV with John Miller and Andrew McCabe when that news broke last night. And their reaction - they had almost exactly the same reactions, there's always a tie with Columbine. The role that Columbine plays among so many would be or, you know, actual school shooters is just enormous. What is that fixation? Now, I don't know for sure there's a fixation

here. We don't. But it is a coincidence she's wearing - a heck of a coincidence she's wearing that t-shirt.

O'TOOLE: Columbine always comes up. And I - I did work on the Columbine case. We had not seen anything like that in 1999 when Columbine occurred. All the other previous shootings, and my research only found 18 up until the time of Columbine, none of which were like Columbine. That was a watershed crime because you had these two young men who walked through their school and seemed to really enjoy the predatory behavior and had fun shooting and killing other people.

[09:10:14]

And one of the basement tapes for Eric Harris, he talked about wanting to be iconic, and he talked about wanting to live forever in infamy. And he talked about hatred. And that was absolutely chilling to me because I had not seen an 18-year-old have that kind of hatred. But he was prophetic. He did say he would live forever, and he has. And I think, in part, because it was such a sensationalized crime. Again, we had never seen anything like that prior to Columbine. You had to go back to 1966 to the Whitman shooting in Texas.

BERMAN: And, Steve, when you have that piece of information, what will investigators do with that?

MOORE: Well, they're going to - they're going to have to go through all the writings, all of the social media, anybody she communicated with, and find out if there's a pattern.

And really, I've worked with Mary Ellen on cases in the bureau. And what we would do is collect this type of information for them. And, you know, ask them, what does this mean? You know, certainly FBI agents, we are in the field working on the crime itself. But when it comes down to, what do these factors mean, we defer to NCAVC, or the profiling group.

But, yes, you are trying to get as much information about what was going on in their life to be valuable to the profilers.

BERMAN: And we will wait to hear more from police and maybe as soon as today.

Steve Moore, Mary Ellen O'Toole, thank you so much for being with us this morning. Appreciate it.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Indicted and the new rare first-degree murder charge just slapped on the man suspected of murdering the CEO of UnitedHealthcare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This was a killing that was intended to evoke terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Also, a new report about Elon Musk and SpaceX facing a federal review. Why protecting state secrets is now in the spotlight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:16:51]

BOLDUAN: Prosecutors in New York now say the murder of Brian Thompson, the UnitedHealthcare CEO, was an act of terrorism. In an 11-count indictment just handed up by a grand jury, prosecutors now charge Luigi Mangione with first degree murder with an intent to commit terrorism. A rare charge in New York.

Now, tomorrow, Mangione is set to return to a courtroom in Pennsylvania to face a judge there once again. And that is where CNN's Danny Freeman is outside that court in Pennsylvania for us.

Danny, talk me through these charges, first and foremost. And also, importantly, what's going to happen behind where you are today?

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure thing, Kate.

Well, first of all, to those charges. These new charges in that indictment really escalated the case against Luigi Mangione. Of course, the Manhattan DA officially announcing that 11 count indictment, which included, as you noted, that very rare first degree murder charge. And it's rare, in part, because it requires special elements related to the crime and really can only come from a narrow list of aggravating factors.

Furthermore, Mangione, also indicted by a grand jury, for murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism. The DA, Alvin Bragg, saying clearly yesterday, this was a killing intended to invoke terror.

Meanwhile, Kate, we're learning more information about Mangione's interactions with the outside world since he's been behind bars here in Pennsylvania, or better said, perhaps, the outside world's attempts to interact with him since he's been in prison. Per a spokesperson for the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, as of yesterday, Mangione has received 157 deposits into his prison commissary account. Also, as of yesterday morning, he'd received 33 emails, six pieces of mail. And that was up from the two pieces of hard mail that we reported that he received back on Monday evening. Though still, the only visitors that he's had in jail has been, as of now, his attorneys.

But, Kate, I want to play some sound from that press conference yesterday that happened in New York. You'll hear a little bit from DA Bragg about the severity of this crime, and also from the NYPD commissioner about why Luigi Mangione, in their eyes, should not be lionized.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This was a frightening, well-planned, targeted murder that was intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation.

JESSICA TISCH, NYPD COMMISSIONER: There is no heroism in what Mangione did. This was a senseless act of violence. It was a cold and calculated crime that stole a life and put New Yorkers at risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FREEMAN: And you can hear neither of these officials mincing words when referring to the crime that Mangione is accused to have committed.

Now, tomorrow morning we're going to see a lot of action here at this courthouse right behind me, Kate. Mangione is scheduled to have two court proceedings. The first one is going to be on those lesser Pennsylvania charges, and then the second one is going to be on the issue of extradition, though CNN's Kara Scannell reported yesterday that Mangione is expected to not fight extradition any longer. That's according to his new New York attorney. And a prison spokesperson told me, Kate, that that means that essentially, after his time in court here tomorrow morning, Mangione could be on his way back to New York.

[09:20:05]

Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, Danny, thank you so much for that.

Sara.

SIDNER: Thank you.

All right, he is the richest man on the planet, and may soon be the most powerful unelected person in the country. But is Elon Musk a national security risk? "The New York Times" is reporting that the feds are reviewing Elon Musk and his rocket company. SpaceX, for possibly violating national security reporting rules. SpaceX is a major government contractor, winning contracts worth at least $10 billion since 2019. As its CEO, Elon Musk has some top-secret security clearance.

Joining me now from Washington, "New York Times" investigative reporter Eric Lipton.

You and your colleagues, Kirsten Grind and Sheera Frenkel, wrote this very in-depth and interesting piece. You wrote that Musk's own employees have complained to the Defense Department's office of inspector general and other agencies about failing to report information that is required. What are the details of the information that they say was not reported, and what are they concerned about?

ERIC LIPTON, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": If you get top secret security clearance from the federal government, you have been given the privilege to have classified information that is potentially a national security threat if it's shared with, you know, rivals or enemies of the United States. So, once you have that status, there's this process that's called continuous vetting. And so, while you have the clearance, you're supposed to be reporting engagements with foreign leaders or business meetings with foreign leaders or even prescription drug use or any illegal drug use. You're not supposed to be using illegal drugs. But there's this process that's called continuous vetting, in which you're supposed to notify the federal government of any potential reason that they should be reconsidering that security clearance. And that's a requirement once you have it.

And so, the concern by some of these folks that are close to SpaceX is that Elon Musk and others around him were not necessarily complying with those requirements.

SIDNER: What happened to some of the workers who - who brought this to light, who complained about this?

LIPTON: What we know is that, in particular, there was one employee who was raising concerns about the - the willingness of SpaceX to really follow the rules, and that that it was willing to kind of like push the limits of the law.

And, you know, we've seen this same approach with respect to environmental rules at its launch site in Texas, in south Texas, near the Mexican border, that it really was kind of just, you know, going slightly over the limits or testing the limits of the law. And this employee in this case, after raising concerns about whether or not SpaceX was serious about complying with the law, was essentially asked to leave, and that individual resigned from the company.

SIDNER: You have also reported that some U.S. allies have expressed some real concerns about Elon Musk having access to sensitive information. Which countries have expressed concerns, and what are they - what are they essentially saying?

LIPTON: I mean, there's a number of countries that my colleagues have heard from, both people in the intelligence community and from foreign governments about this. And Israel in particular is among the countries that has raised this concern. I mean there's a lot of information sharing among different countries that have, you know, sensitive intelligence that they don't want shared with rivals or enemies. And there's a perception that, you know, how willing is Elon Musk to follow the rules?

I mean, we don't have, you know, we don't have explicit evidence that he, you know, completely disregarded the rules. What we have is assertions from people that are close to him that they did not think that there was sufficient compliance. And there was reports of that to the Department of Defense. And it's our understanding that, you know, the inspector general at the Department of Defense is reviewing this matter.

SIDNER: I am curious, something that stuck out in this article as well is how the leadership of the Pentagon has been sort of dealing with Musk and these issues of concern. What is your reporting on that? What did you learn about how the Pentagon is dealing with this? LIPTON: I mean, I sort of saw two things. One is a desire to try to

get to the bottom of it and try to be able to answer questions from members of Congress that have asked about this. You know, some information gathering and a review of these questions and trying to get to some ground truth as to what the situation is.

But on the other hand, I also heard, and this was quite surprising to me, I heard a fair amount of like - of worry that if we spoke about this publicly, that we were going to become targeted by Elon Musk and his DOGE committee, and that it was best to stay - to lie low and to not, you know, acknowledge that we're investigating or reviewing this because that could draw attention to our office and we might be DOGE- ed, we could be sliced out by his committee because, you know, if we were raising questions about him.

[09:25:02]

And I was quite surprised that there was that kind of concern within the Department of Defense.

SIDNER: Yes, it sounds like some fear in the Pentagon over this. It was a fascinating report. Thank you so much for joining us and talking us through it.

Eric Lipton, of "The New York Times, appreciate it.

LIPTON: Thank you.

SIDNER: John.

BERMAN: All right, new reporting that watching videos on social media can literally kill your brain cells. But, according to medical experts, only if the videos are stupid.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:30:04]

BERMAN: All right, we do have some breaking news. An interesting development from Capitol Hill.