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Healthcare CEO Murderer Suspect to be Arraigned; D.A. Fani Willis Disqualified From Prosecuting Trump; Government Shutdown Looms After Trump, Musk Tank Spending Deal; Just Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 19, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:52]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Brianna Keilar alongside Boris Sanchez here in Washington. And we are following our breaking news. For the first time, accused CEO killer Luigi Mangione set to appear in a New York courtroom to face charges that he allegedly gunned down UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson earlier this month in a strike against -- or we should say earlier this month in a brazen attack.

The Justice Department filing new charges against the 26-year-old defendant including stalking and murder. A New York grand jury has already indicted the Ivy League graduate on state charges of first and second degree murder.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: But what you saw there moments ago was Mangione arriving in New York City a short time ago. This was the scene as he was extradited from Pennsylvania where he was arrested at a McDonald's after a five day manhunt. In a remarkable scene, the suspected killer was flanked by the NYPD, New York Mayor Eric Adams and other officials. A van then driving the suspect to the courthouse with a large motorcade.

CNN Shimon Prokupecz is now outside the courthouse for us in Manhattan. Shimon, tell us what you know about this hearing that we understand should be getting underway soon.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it should be getting underway soon. Mangione is inside the courthouse now. We're just waiting for his attorneys and for him to appear with the prosecutors. And it'll be his initial appearance on the federal charges, those four charges, the two charges for stalking and murdering allegedly Brian Thompson, a firearms charge.

And so that is what we expect to happen. It'll be his first time here in a New York court. Coming back to New York in quite a different way. Really, just a sort of believable to see the way in which he was transported here to New York City. An NYPD plane picking him up in Pennsylvania, meeting him at an airport was an NYPD helicopter in Long Island. They then flew him to the Wall Street heliport where he was met by dozens of law enforcement officials, the mayor of this city, the highest ranking officials of the NYPD, all there waiting for him. And it was quite a spectacle and really just remarkable to see the way in which they presented him, the way in which they accepted him, the way in which they walked him through that heliport into a waiting van where then FBI agents with the NYPD brought him here to the courthouse, took him into custody here, the FBI did. And now he's facing these very significant federal charges that make him eligible for the death penalty. Now, he wasn't on the state case, but it's quite different now. And so we wait for this hearing to get underway here shortly.

KEILAR: And Shimon, we should also note that the federal complaint revealed some new details about Mangione's notebook. Can you tell us what we've learned there?

PROKUPECZ: Yeah. So this is all new. Let me just look at my notes here. So this was all new information and this is all based off of what the FBI says was that notebook, the handwritten notebook from Mangione that was recovered by police.

[14:05:09]

And it too is very, very significant because it lays out how long he allegedly was planning this attack, the way in which he was thinking about this attack, and also the motive.

So there are a couple of entries that the federal complaint talks about. One in August, August 15th of this year, so not too long ago. But it just goes back to show you how long he was planning it. And what he writes in there is that, quote, "The details are finally coming together".

And then he writes, according to the FBI, "I'm glad in a way that I've procrastinated because it allowed me to learn more about company one", and that is believed to be UnitedHealth Insurance. And then he writes, the target is insurance, because it checks every box. Now, in the October 22 also of this year entry, he writes, quote, "One-and-a half months, this investor conference is a true windfall".

And most importantly, the message becomes self-evident. And then the complaint, the federal complaint says he writes the words, quote, "Whack the CEO of the insurance companies at its investor's conference". So very significant here for law enforcement. They say these are the notes that he had on him handwritten in his own handwriting, which shows the motive, they say.

And now obviously we wait for this court hearing to see what his attorneys -- it will be the first time that we get to hear from his attorney, Karen Agnifilo. And her husband is also here in court. He's Marc Agnifilo and his name might sound familiar because he's been in the news a lot lately. He represents P. Diddy. So the two of them, these two attorneys are now overseeing this case.

And the other thing I want to point out, you know, much has been made about Karen Agnifilo. She's a former prosecutor, chief prosecutor in the Manhattan DA's office. And you know, for the last few weeks, we've been expecting that this case was going to be in a state court. We were expecting that this morning, even as late as 10 a.m. that we thought we would all be in a state court.

And now all of a sudden at sort of, you know, the last minute here, the FBI swooped in, they have charged him, they have taken him into custody, and he's going to be in federal custody as he awaits trial on this federal case.

SANCHEZ: Shimon Prokupecz live for us outside the federal courthouse in Manhattan. Keep us posted with what you're hearing is going on behind closed doors.

Let's discuss with our panel. We have CNN Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson, a Criminal Defense Attorney, retired New York Police Detective, Michael Alcazar, now an adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal justice, and CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig, a former State and Federal Prosecutor. Thank you all for being with us. Elie, first, I want to go to you because you know this courthouse extremely well. Give us an idea of what it actually looks like since cameras aren't allowed inside.

ELIE HONIG, CNN Senior Legal Analyst: Yeah, Boris. I spent many, many hours and days inside this courthouse. So what's happening today? What will happen shortly is an arraignment. So before that, Luigi Mangione is going through some basic processing through the court officers, through the marshals. They'll take his prints. They'll ask him some basic questions. When the court proceedings ready, he'll be walked into what we call magistrates court.

Now, if you're trying to envision this, it's not these sort of soaring ornate federal courtroom where most trials happen. This is sort of an unglamorous dingier courtroom. The ceiling's lower, it's darker, it's smaller, and usually it's just used as a place for sort of initial processing.

So Mangione will sit at his table with his lawyer, Karen Friedman Agnifilo by his side. The prosecutors for the SDNY will be at the other table. The judge will essentially say, Mr. Mangione, you've been -- you've been not indicted. Excuse me. You've been charged by complaint. Have you seen the complaint? Have you gone through it with your lawyer? He'll say, yes.

The judge may ask, how do you plead? If that question gets asked, he will say, I plead not guilty. Do you have a lawyer? Mangione will say, yes, I do. This is the person sitting right next to me. And then the judge will say to the lawyer, do you want to make a motion on bail here? Meaning do you want to ask for bail? He might ask for bail. Karen Friedman Agnifilo might ask for bail for him. But that's just to put on a show. There's zero chance that he gets bail.

And then from that point, the prosecutors, the federal prosecutors will have 30 days under the rule, and under some readings, 20, it sort of depends on the nuances here, but 20 to 30 days to go to a grand jury and get an indictment. At that point, the case will be assigned to a district judge and will be underway in the familiar, normal criminal process.

KEILAR: And, Joey, just explain to our viewers these federal charges versus the state charges.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah. So, Brianna and Boris, the federal government has what's called concurrent jurisdiction. What that means in English is that the state can charge and they have, they've indicted him in the 11 counts, which we've talked a lot about, including first degree murder, second degree murder, a number of gun charges, etcetera.

[14:10:08]

The state has done that. However, the federal government also has the jurisdiction to charge and they have done so. If you look at the distinction in the actual criminal complaint in federal court between the indictment, what I would say is in the state court case in which he faces life without parole based upon the terrorism charge, it's a bare bones indictment, just alleging enough to get you to the standards of which are charged as it relates to the murders, as it relates to the gun, et cetera.

However, if you look at the federal complaint, it's what we call a speak. It's not even a speaking indictment. It is a singing, screaming indictment. What's the difference? Sorry, criminal complaint, not yet been indicted. What I'm saying is, is that generally it lays out probable cause to believe he's committed one of the four offenses in which he's charged. This lays out chapter and verse, a timeline with respect to the plotting and planning, right? Given many days before.

It lays out a number of pictures, not only of him, of the gray backpack, of the weapon, of the silencer. It gives you what he was doing. It talks about the manifesto, it talks about the federal, what he was saying in terms of, to the feds, and listing that out. And so it really is specific in detail with regard to what he has allegedly done, how he has done it, the process he has followed in doing it, and of course the major distinction, because the defense counsel has said in great advocacy that, hey, you know, it's double jeopardy and it's piling on.

Federal government has a role here. And it's not double jeopardy to the extent that the nature of the charges are different, right? The course of conduct you have to prove is different. And at the end of the day, the fact is, is that in federal, right? you have the death penalty. In state court, you don't. A major distinction.

Last point, and that is Elie described the magistrate. And you know, it's not as ornate as these federal courthouses, which are beautiful, but compared to state court, that magistrate court is paradise. I mean, it's a lot different from a state perspective, but it just goes to show your level of perspective.

You know, Ellie Honig, being a seasoned federal prosecutor, I spent my time in state court, so when I go into federal courts, it's in awe, right? Where it's so -- that's a distinction in terms of the layout and the look, at least.

SANCHEZ: Michael I want to ask you about one aspect to what Joey was just describing, and that is the fact that this is a singing or screaming complaint, soon to be indictment. That's in large part because of the amount of evidence that investigators have gathered here, what they found on Mangione when he was apprehended in Altoona.

I do wonder how you see federal investigators working with the NYPD and what New York detectives have gathered. Do they basically just pick up from what they have, or do they then these federal investigators have to start their own investigation?

MICHAEL ALCAZAR, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: I think the Feds are going to start their own investigation. Of course they're going to look at the information that's being shared with them by the NYPD, but they're going to do their due diligence, do their own investigation. Look at all the evidence.

I mean, there's a wealth of evidence here what the NYPD recovered at the crime scene, the gun on Mangione, the bullets at the crime scene that now match the DNA evidence on the bottle, the water bottle, and on the phone, his manifesto, his fingerprints on the manifesto on the scene. So it's going to be a joint effort, but I believe the Feds will do their own -- conduct their own investigation and then compare what they have with the NYPD.

KEILAR: And, Elie, if you could just talk about how the death penalty relates to the federal charge here and why this would be a candidate for the Feds to pursue it.

HONIG: Yeah. So big issue to watch here in the coming weeks and months. Just to be clear, New York State law does not have a death penalty. So in the state case, the most that Luigi Mangione could be sentenced to is life in prison. But here in the federal court, which we're looking at here on the screen, this one of the charges against Luigi Mangione can potentially be punished by the death penalty.

Now, there's a process here. DOJ first has to go through its internal process. If you're the prosecutor on this case, you have to write a memo that goes down to the Attorney General's office in D.C. where you recommend we should or should not seek the death penalty, then the AG and his people in D.C. will review that, and if the decision comes back, yes, we are going to seek the death penalty, then that's the case.

But DOJ does not always seek the death penalty in all death eligible cases, the kind of things you look at are just how heinous was the crime, what's the nature of the crime, how premeditated was it, how many victims were there? Are there larger societal needs here, deterrence rehabilitation? That kind of thing that would weigh for or against the death penalty. So that process usually takes weeks or months to play out.

But important to notice, there's going to be a big difference when the Trump administration takes over DOJ in three weeks. I mean, Donald Trump's DOJ was way more aggressive during his first term in imposing the death penalty, certainly than recent Democratic administrations have been.

[14:15:06] Biden administration has sought death penalty in two cases, two mass shootings. But I think the chances of a death penalty being sought here are going to go up when Donald Trump's sworn in, when his DOJ takes over in January.

SANCHEZ: Joey, I want to pick up on something we spoke about yesterday when discussing this Mangione case, and that is the idea of jury nullification being a potential factor. That is the jury essentially deciding that this person may have committed the act that they're accused of, but that on the greater whole, it would be unjust for them to face a sentence effectively. And you can correct me if I'm misrepresenting jury nullification, but I wonder how that now potentially applies to federal charges.

JACKSON: Yeah, Boris, indeed. I mean, I think most people would be screaming at the screen and probably are right? Saying, jury nullification? What are talking about? He's guilty. Look at this evidence. Have you not seen the criminal complaint here in federal court where it lays out chapter and verse? He's on his bicycle, it talks about the manifesto, it talks about to the Feds. He's guilty, even looking at this.

Not so fast. Obviously, you have the presumption of innocence. However, from all public indications, the evidence is really strong. The reason we're here talking about, at least, you know, you raised the issue of jury nullification is. We've seen social media. I have never, right? And I'd be curious to know if Elie has ever seen a case like this where social media really is calling him a hero.

He's being called St. Luigi. They're selling T-shirts with angels on them. They're selling trinkets for Christmas. People on social media are saying, hey, it should have been me to do this. It should have happened before, you know, it should happen again. It's insane.

And so why is that relevant? Why is public perception relevant? Why am I talking about social media? Because we're talking about a jury pool now, of course, the Southern District's jury pool. Lot different from a Manhattan jury poll to the extent that it's more, right? It's a broader area that you have to cover. And I don't know whether that's better or worse with respect to the number of people who are going to be there, the number of people evaluating.

Now, I should also say very briefly that you select a jury, and if there's jurors who say, I hate the health care system, I hate government, I don't like anybody. Most of all, you defense attorney and you prosecutor, whatever, you excuse them. They're called challenges for cause. But you have a limited number of people who are ultimately, right? Going to be on that jury. And those are the people you agree to.

But people are people. They have visions, they have emotions, they have perspectives. Will they say, you know what? Wow, this is long overdue. That's something to look for with regard to a hung jury, with regard to a jury that nullifies. You know, I don't know that they will. But if ever there was a case, right? Where it would be a jury that would nullify. And last, last point, look at the last election. The public has spoken with regard to what they feel about the government, with regard to what they feel about the country and the direction it's heading, the distrust of government, just the feelings overall about politics. They wanted someone in the office who could just be, you know, just a norm breaker. I'm looking for that as it relates to this case. To be sure.

SANCHEZ: Some fascinating perspective. Joey Jackson, Michael Alcazar, Elie Honig, appreciate you all. Thanks for the conversation.

JACKSON: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead, we're also following two other major breaking stories this hour. The Georgia prosecutor leading the state's election interference case against Donald Trump has now been disqualified. So did the final criminal case against the President Elect just collapse? We'll discuss.

KEILAR: And chaos on Capitol Hill. Lawmakers scrambling to avoid a government shutdown after the President Elect and Elon Musk pressured Republicans to tank a bipartisan spending deal.

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[14:23:26]

KEILAR: President Elect Donald Trump has scored another major legal victory, this time in Georgia, where an appeals court has disqualified Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis from prosecuting the election interference case against Trump and his co-defendants. This was a split decision, two judges voting for her removal saying a significant appearance of impropriety was enough to potentially taint the case in the public's eyes.

SANCHEZ: Now, Trump and his co-defendants have been trying to get Willis disqualified over a romantic relationship she had with the special prosecutor that she hired for the case. Let's bring in CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid. Paula, what does this ruling today mean for the case and for the remaining co-defendants?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the case against President Elect Trump and his co-defendants survives, but they need to find now a new prosecutor and a new office that's going to be willing to spend likely most of its time and resources taking on this case. I mean, that seems high unlikely. So if this opinion stands, that is going to be a monumental task to find someone to take it over. So that's why, yes, technically it survives, but as I've been saying, it's on life support.

And what happened here is the appeals court believes that DA Fani Willis and her entire office should be removed from the case for the appearance of impropriety that came about as a result of her romantic relationship with Nathan Wade. That was the special prosecutor she tapped to oversee this historic case. Usually, something just looking improper isn't enough. But here, the court said this is the rare case in which disqualification is mandated and no other remedy will suffice to restore public confidence in the integrity of these proceedings.

[14:25:01]

As we know, Trump and his lawyers, they're always attacking prosecutors, judges, the legal system. But here, Fani Willis gave them a very legitimate thing to litigate. And here, the appellate court, they're saying the trial court was not correct. And in fact, she should be removed from the case, that we do expect her office will appeal this decision.

KEILAR: It's interesting that the ruling also pointed to something we discussed many times on this program, which was a speaker that she made at a black church earlier this year. Tell us about this.

REID: So these were her remarks that she made, as you said, at a black church shortly after these allegations of a romantic relationship between her and the special prosecutor first surfaced. So let's take a listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIS, FUTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Oh, she going to play the race card now. But no, God, isn't it them who's playing the race card when they only question one? Isn't it them playing the race card when they constantly think I need someone from some other jurisdiction in some other state to tell me how to do a job I've been doing almost 30 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: So the appellate court said that it was a mistake for the trial court not to allow those comments in when assessing whether she should be disqualified because you could argue that those comments, right? She's not acknowledging their romantic relationship. She's also not taking any personal responsibility for the larger situation, instead suggesting somewhere -- someone somewhere is playing the race card.

Here the appellate court saying this should have been taken into consideration when assessing whether the appearance of impropriety here was enough to disqualify her. But I think it's significant that the court took time to point out these comments in particular because at the time we did say we reported on this program and others that, wow, weighing in in that way, especially remember the case we're talking about, a historic case against a former President. It was highly unusual for a prosecutor to that.

SANCHEZ: Some major developments there in Fulton County. Paula Reid, thank you so much.

Still plenty more news to come on New Central, including the man charged with murdering a health care CEO sitting right now in a New York federal courtroom. We're on top of all the latest developments in the Luigi Mangione case. Stay with CNN News Central. We're back in just moments.

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