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Govt. On Brink Of Shutdown After Trump, Musk Tank Spending Deal; Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) Discusses Spending Deal, Possible Government Shutdown; Now: Health Care CEO Murder Suspect In Fed Courthouse In NYC; New Details Emerge About Teen Wisconsin School Shooter. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired December 19, 2024 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:30:55]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: On Capitol Hill, the government is barreling closer to a shutdown as lawmakers race against the clock to figure out a new way to avoid it after President-Elect Donald Trump and Elon Musk came out against the deal that would have kept the money flowing in Washington through at least March.

Trump is now demanding changes to the bill and an increase to the debt ceiling, and he wants this all done before Inauguration Day on January 20th.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: House Speaker Mike Johnson helped broker the spending deal with support from Republicans and Democrats. But after Trump and Musk sank it, not only is Johnson's speakership hanging in the balance, so is the pay of federal workers and so many more people.

Also, many essential employees might have to continue working through the shutdown through the holidays. Critical projects could be in jeopardy. And all of this unfolding, of course, just before Christmas.

Let's go live now to CNN chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju.

Bah, humbug, Manu. You've been speaking with lawmakers. They maybe deserve some coal for Christmas or whichever holiday they celebrate. What are you hearing?

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there is total confusion in the capital about how they will avoid a government shutdown by weeks end.

Remember, this was a carefully negotiated compromise between the four leaders of Congress, as well as senior members of the Appropriations Committee, which determines how money is spent.

That deal was released earlier this week. It looked like it was going to be on a glide path to passage, even though some folks, particularly on the right, were upset with some of the deals that were cut. But ultimately, it was expected to pass. Then Donald Trump came in at the 11th hour and bashed this bill, as

did Elon Musk. Trump himself, not only did he criticize this deal, he went further and said anyone who supported it or didn't do what he asked for could actually face primary challenges.

And also added this politically fraught issue of raising the national debt limit as part of it. That is a difficult negotiation, divides Republicans, and something that usually takes months to resolve.

He wants that done as part of this negotiation while they're trying to avoid a government shutdown by the end of the week.

Now, I just caught up with a number of Senate Republicans leaving a closed door lunch, and there is no plan yet on how to move forward.

And J.D. Vance was at this lunch. People like Senator Susan Collins, who will chair that Senate Appropriations Committee, said, "I truly don't know what the plan is."

Others criticizing the talk of a government shutdown, like Chuck Grassley told me it was stupid to shut down the government at this point.

Rand Paul said getting rid of the debt limit would be fiscally irresponsible.

And then there are the Democrats. Democrat votes will be essential, not just in the Senate, but also in the House.

And talking to a number of those House Democrats today, they said we had a deal, they didn't want to cut a new one that Trump is demanding.

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REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): This is ridiculous right now. What he's trying to do is insert something that is a negotiating tool into an already negotiated agreement to keep the government open.

REP. VERNOICA ESCOBAR (D-TX): I've got to get my community prepared for what is likely to be a government shutdown. I have Border Patrol agents, CBP officers, TSA, air-traffic controllers, a lot of federal employees, a lot of public servants who depend on their paychecks now.

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[14:35:10]

RAJU: Now, meantime, Trump has continued to dig in and said that a debt limit increase must be part of this negotiation. And that is what the House speaker, Mike Johnson, is now trying to deal with behind the scenes.

There have been a flurry of meetings to try to get Republicans on board behind one plan. There is no consensus yet, which is why there are major fears right now in the capital of a government shutdown, a potentially prolonged one as well -- guys? KEILAR: All right, that sounds dire.

Manu, thank you for that report from the Hill.

With us now is Republican Congressman Steve Womack of Arkansas. He serves on the House Appropriations Committee.

Sir, thanks for taking the time with us this afternoon.

Is there going to be a shutdown?

REP. STEVE WOMACK (R-AR): Well, I pray not. I don't think that's wise on anybody's part, particularly at this time of year. In fact, any time.

There are people out there that believe government shutdowns don't affect them, but they do. And it's -- it rolls off the tongue pretty easy to, you know, just say advocate for a shutdown.

But that ignores the reality that a lot of very important federal workers, a lot of important federal duties just become very, you know, jeopardized, threatened. And -- and we don't need that at this time of year.

This was a bit of a surprise yesterday, as I was quoted early this morning, I woke up yesterday not knowing that the debt ceiling was going to be part of this deal. And then by the afternoon, the debt ceiling was part of the deal.

So I'm assuming that's what's being negotiated right now. How do you thin down, you know, pare down the 1,500-plus page C.R.. By the way, less than 100 pages of it is actually funding the government.

How do you pare that down? Keep some provisions in there that are critically important, like disaster, like farm aid, those kinds of things. And at the same time deliver on a demand by the president- elect. And that is to deal with the debt ceiling before his inauguration.

KEILAR: So it's pretty wild that, you know, someone like you, a top appropriator not hearing about this debt ceiling demand until this 11th hour. Who is responsible for it getting to that point?

WOMACK: Well, ultimately, I don't want to, you know, point fingers at people. But -- because I wasn't the one negotiating this -- this issue. I'm not part of the four corners --

(CROSSTALK)

WOMACK: -- as was reported by Manu. But I'm a senior appropriator and so I'm connected to -- to, you know, to some of those discussions.

But ultimately, the people who are negotiating are the ones that are putting all of the options on the table and then deciding what can stay, what has to go, what is politically doable. And this didn't come up until, as I say, the 11th hour yesterday. As you mentioned, I'm a senior appropriator. This -- this -- all this began back in September. Here we are on the eve of Christmas, you know, on the eve of a government shutdown, because we run out of money tomorrow.

And the appropriators got their work pretty much finished, at least on the House side, and prepared to move these all across the floor, get into conference with the Senate and get it approved and signed into law.

But we keep kicking this can down the road. This is the new norm for Congress, and that is to --

KEILAR: Sure.

WOMACK: -- delay appropriations until the next milestone. And we have to stop that.

KEILAR: But where do -- where would votes for this debt-ceiling issue come from if you have 71 Republicans who voted against suspending the debt limit in the 2023 bill?

WOMACK: Well, it's clear to me that we have potential issues on our side of the aisle. And I'll speak to the other side in a minute. But on our side of the aisle, we have people that will never vote for a debt ceiling. They've promised people back home, they'll never vote for a debt ceiling.

And look, is the United States government going to default on the paying of its bills? I just can't fathom a circumstance that would cause that to be the case. And -- and that scares the markets and that turns the economy upside down. We don't need to go there.

On the left, on the on the Democrat side, I understand their reluctance to want to support any new deals because we had a negotiated plan that they we're willing to support. And now the tables have been turned.

So we're in a chaotic situation right now. And I've been looking at a blue screen on my monitor all day long, and that's never a good thing the day before you lapse in funding.

KEILAR: Yes, certainly.

I want to ask you about Elon Musk because he's the one who raised this demand publicly. He's wielding a lot of power right now. And what do you think about some of your colleagues being open to him being speaker? Would you support that?

WOMACK: Well, I don't -- I don't think that's a realistic idea. First of all, Elon's got to want to do it.

[14:40:05]

And I think when he looks at what Mike Johnson has been through, what Kevin McCarthy had been through, what all speakers have to go through, he'll probably find that launching and recovering rockets, building E.V.s, revitalizing social media platforms is a heck of a lot easier and much more profitable than becoming speaker of the House.

KEILAR: And finally, your colleagues who are calling for a shutdown, and there are some of them who are calling for a protracted one. You have Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nancy Mace, saying, shut the government down until Trump takes office on January 6th.

Your colleagues who are comfortable with the military not getting paid, it appears, you've got multiple military installations there in Arkansas. You've got folks at ebbing there in your district. What's your message to your colleagues on that?

WOMACK: Shutting the government down is counterintuitive to anything that I believe. I'm a former mayor. So, you know, government is made to work.

And like I said earlier, when people say or advocate for a government shutdown, they are ignoring the absolute results of that.

And -- but here's the -- here's the problem with shutting the government down is eventually it has to be reopened. And under what conditions would it be reopened?

If you are able to extract concessions from the other side, then that's one thing. But if they're dug in and they're not going to give, then before long you're going to see the real impact on everyday Americans that a government shutdown actually proposes.

And the results of that, I think, would be disastrous to both the new majorities in the House and the Senate and the incoming president.

KEILAR: Yes, what a headline right before Christmas.

Congressman Steve Womack, thanks for your time.

WOMACK: Thank you so much. Glad to be with you.

KEILAR: Next, we're back with our breaking news. We have some new details on what is happening behind closed doors, those closed doors as health care CEO murder suspect, Luigi Mangione, is due in federal court. We're going to take you there live, next.

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[14:46:30]

SANCHEZ: Back to our breaking news this afternoon. Health care CEO murder suspect, Luigi Mangione, is due to appear before a judge right now on new federal charges of murder and stalking.

KEILAR: Let's go now to CNN's Shimon Prokupecz outside of court.

Shimon, can you tell us what is happening inside?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So we are waiting on him, on Luigi Mangione and his attorneys to appear in court. We're told by our team inside that prosecutors are inside the courtroom. So we're waiting for the judge. We're waiting for him, and we're waiting for his attorneys.

We believe, according to our Kara Scannell, that he is meeting with his attorneys currently. He has two attorneys here with him, a husband-and-wife team, Karen Agnifilo and Mark Agnifilo.

We saw them coming here a couple of hours ago. And now they are meeting with him and we hope to get started here soon.

This will be his first appearance. It will be a presentment where they're going to tell him -- the judge will tell him what he's charged with. He'll see a magistrate judge. And then we go from there. They will set a future date.

But I think what will happen here, obviously, will be our first chance, really, to hear from his attorneys. It will be our chance to hear -- sort of hear anything they may say about the case.

And then we hope, once they're done, they'll come down and speak to reporters. Coming in, they said they didn't want to make any comments.

But I think, given the sort of last-minute surprise here with the FBI swooping in and charging him and sort of taking him away from the state court proceeding that we all expected today.

The way in which he was brought over, helicopters and planes and that very long walk surrounded by dozens of law enforcement officials with -- with the mayor and the leading law enforcement officials from the NYPD.

Quite a spectacle and something that certainly not many of us here have ever seen in any case. So it's going to be curious to see if there's going to be any kind of response from his attorneys once they wrap up in court, which we expect should be soon. We hope.

SANCHEZ: Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much. We'll check back in with you again shortly.

[14:48:47]

Still to come on NEWS CENTRAL, new details on the Wisconsin school shooting, including a possible link between the shooter and a California man who apparently was planning an attack of his own, according to officials.

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[14:53:07]

SANCHEZ: Some new details are emerging about the 15-year-old girl who opened fire on a Christian school in Madison, Wisconsin, this week, killing two people.

KEILAR: Police say that she was communicating with a California man who was actually planning his own attack.

CNN national correspondent, Natasha Chen, is with us now.

Natasha, tell us about this.

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris and Brianna, San Diego court documents show that this 20-year-old man, Alexander Paffendorf, admitted to the FBI agents he was being interviewed by that he told the Wisconsin shooter, Natalie Rupnow, that he would arm himself with explosives and a gun, that he would target a government building. But the documents don't say which building in particular.

On Tuesday, there was a restraining order issued against Paffendorf to temporarily turn over his ammunition and guns as they investigate this situation.

The Carlsbad Police Department told CNN there is no threat to the city at this time. Directed our questions to federal authorities.

Now, my colleagues, Josh Campbell and Jake Hanna, were not able to locate Paffendorf today in his neighborhood, but did speak to some neighbors, some who described him as reclusive, that his family had lived there for more than a dozen years.

Now, while that's going on, on the west coast, over in Wisconsin, the community is still just reeling from this tragedy.

People now talking about the victims they lost, including the teacher, Aaron West.

Here's what one student had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACKYNZIE O'CONNOR, ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL STUDENT: Just she was brought something up about how just about how she, like, would do anything for anyone at our school because she loves everyone at our school.

And it's -- it's just she was such a good person. And like, I saw -- I'd seen her, like, two hours before the shooting.

Just looking back, I just wish I could have gone back and, you know, given her a hug.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:55:03]

CHEN: And besides, the teacher and student who we're killed, there we're six others injured. Now, of those six, four of them have been discharged. Two are still in critical condition.

In fact, a pastor posted on social media to ask everyone for prayers for a boy named Sammy. He said to pray for that family because Sammy needs a miracle right now -- Boris and Brianna? KEILAR: All right. Natasha Chen, thank you.

We do have some breaking news. The attorneys for the health care CEO murder suspect, Luigi Mangione, are now in court. Mangione is facing some new federal charges of murder and stalking. We'll be taking you live back to the courthouse, next.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.