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Hegseth Meeting With NATO Chief Amid Pentagon Chaos; Trump Chaos Has Already Damaged the U.S. Economy; A Pause in NIH Funding Leaves Alzheimer's Studies in Limbo. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired April 24, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Happening now, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth is meeting with NATO's secretary general at the Pentagon. It comes as Hegseth faces growing questions in that building and beyond over his judgment.

Let's get right to CNN's Natasha Bertrand in Washington for the latest. Good morning, Natasha.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. Yes, so Secretary Hegseth, he is meeting with NATO's secretary general right now, just hours after Russia launched its deadliest strike on Kyiv, Ukraine's capital, in about nine months. And, you know, even as the secretary general of NATO has declared unwavering support for Ukraine, that is not a sentiment that is shared, of course, by the Trump administration, then that is something that Secretary Hegseth is likely to convey as well.

Secretary Hegseth has broadly stepped back from a coordinating role that the U.S. has played over the last several years in coordinating the flow of military aid to Ukraine, and he is likely to express President Trump's frustrations with how the peace talks and the progress of the war are actually going.

But as you said, all of this comes as Secretary Hegseth continues to be in the middle of a firestorm, really, about his use of Signal to communicate sensitive military plans in not one but two group chats. He has not responded to those allegations in a fulsome way, just saying that he believes that all of this is coming from disgruntled former employees who are trying to undermine him.

But the White House, we are told while they're standing behind him at this point, they are taking notice of all of the turmoil in his inner circle. We are told, of course, that Hegseth has been paranoid, increasingly isolated over the last month or so, and he, again, still has not fully addressed why he has been using Signal to communicate these sensitive military details about a war that the U.S. is currently conducting against the Houthis in Yemen on these Signal group chats. So, right now, we have not this morning yet heard from Secretary Hegseth. It's not clear whether we will. He did not respond to shouted questions about this earlier today, just before his meeting with the secretary general. John?

BERMAN: All right. Well, keep us posted when we do hear something.

Natasha Bertrand, thank you very much. Sarah?

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, joining me now, Democrat Strategist and former Chief Pentagon Spokesman Chris Meagher. Thank you so much for being here.

There are calls from Democrats, like Senator Tammy Duckworth, who served in the military, and calling for his resignation. Are you also -- would you also be calling for the same, and do you think that all Democrats are on the same page here?

CHRIS MEAGHER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, yes. He's shown time and time again that he just doesn't take operational security, national security seriously. And, look, we knew this from the outset. He was unqualified, incompetent. He didn't have the tools needed to do this job effectively. And people were talking about that out of the gate. Democrats were united at that time in opposing his nomination, setting aside, you know, the alleged drinking problems and sexual assault allegations and that troublesome mix, he was simply just unqualified to do this job, to lead this huge organization where you're putting the lives of men and women in harm's way.

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We need somebody who as at, at the, the top of their game, who knows what they're doing. And all we've seen since he's been in office is chaos.

SIDNER: The Republicans keep pointing to, oh, but their recruitment is up, and so all is well. That's what we heard from Congressman Byron Donalds yesterday. What do you think of that? Do you think that Republicans are actually growing weary of Hegseth or in deep support of him?

MEAGHER: Yes. I think that everyone is starting to grow weary of Pete Hegseth. You're hearing mumblings out of the White House that President Trump and others are growing tired of Pete Hegseth, and for good reason. He's shown time and time again that he has no idea what he's doing. He doesn't seem to understand that putting classified, sensitive information about what our troops are going to be doing and where in an unclassified space before the operation takes place is a big deal.

It puts troops' lives at risk to have people on the chain like his wife and his lawyer, and people who have nothing to do with operational security or operational details, to be sharing that information with them, again, before the operation even takes place, it's just baffling to me. I can't imagine anyone in any sort of serious role of responsibility would do such a thing, and I think Republicans are starting to see that you're you. And hopefully we'll start to hear from more of them.

SIDNER: I want to move on to the fact the second highest ranking senator, Dick Durbin, said it's time to face reality and make way for someone new. But he has now announced his plans to retire after serving 44 years in the Senate. Should Dems be concerned of this loss of leadership there and that it may even put Democrats in need for weaker position here?

MEAGHER: I don't think so. I think it's always good to get fresh blood on the Hill. You know, I think a lot of -- the best ideas are going to be coming from outside of Washington, D.C. And so to bring people who maybe haven't spent decades and decades on the Hill is a good thing.

Senator Durbin obviously has been a tremendous leader for the Democratic Party, a tremendous leader on the Hill. He's gotten a lot done over his years in Congress. But, you know, it comes a time when everyone's supposed to step aside and his time he decided is now, and it paves the way for somebody new with new ideas and new thoughts to come in, and I think that's a good thing.

SIDNER: All right. Chris Meagher, thank you so much for weighing in there on all of that.

All right, ahead, this morning, former First Lady Michelle Obama is speaking out about skipping President Donald Trump's second inauguration and it's stirred up some buzz.

And a cardinal convicted of fraud and embezzlement and stripped of his cardinal responsibilities, he now wants to take part in the conclave to elect the next pope. It is causing major controversy at the Vatican. That story and more ahead.

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning with President Trump seeming to hit a -- strike a softer tone on tariffs this week, in some respects, some economists say that it might be too late, though, to course correct on the damage that's already been done.

CNN's Matt Egan has much more on this aspect of how this continues to unfold. What are economists saying?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Kate, they're saying that a significant amount of damage has been done by all of this chaos right now.

BOLDUAN: Like the train has left the station in some regard.

EGAN: Right. And you can't undo that damage right overnight, right. Tariffs, right, tariffs are up one day, the next day, there's hope that they're going to come down. One day, Fed Chair Jerome Powell's job is safe. The next, he's getting called a major loser on Truth Social by the president of the United States. So, investors, CEOs, business owners, they're just kind of in the dark right now.

Wendy Edelberg over at Brookings told my colleague, Allison Morrow, she said, businesses don't know which end is up. She said everyone is holding their breath because they don't know what policy is going to be the law of the land tomorrow.

BOLDUAN: Right, exactly.

EGAN: Think about that for a moment. Just yesterday, the Fed put out it's beige book. That's a snapshot, a survey of how businesses are feeling. The word uncertainty came up 80 times in this report yesterday, 80. That is extremely high, seven times more than the same report a year ago. And when there's that much uncertainty, economists say it kind of paralyzes business owners, right? They don't know if they should hire workers or fire. Should they expand or should they retreat? What should they do with prices? They just don't really know.

Most concerning for this economy, because it runs on consumer spending, is what's happened to consumer confidence. Look at this. This is a chart on consumer sentiment going back to the 1950s. And you can see right now, consumer sentiment is the second lowest it's ever been, lower even than during the great recession, which is quite telling.

Now, we don't know whether or not this is going to cause people to actually slash their spending. But if they do, of course, that will be problematic for the economy. I talked to Justin Wolfers, the University of Michigan economist, and he told me that despite this softer tone from the White House, he remains extremely concerned about the economy because uncertainty remains through the roof.

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And we're also seeing a lot of conflicting signals from the market, right? One day, the market is plunging. The next, it's up.

One thing to note though, when it comes to the market is a lot of damage has been done here as well. Look at this. Despite the recent rebound in stocks, the S&P 500 has still lost more than $6 trillion in value. And, Kate, that's just in the last two months.

BOLDUAN: I can't actually wrap my mind around that one. That is impossible to understand.

And here is where the futures are at this moment.

EGAN: Yes. Looking like a quieter open, but we'll see. That'll change, I'm sure.

BOLDUAN: That shoulder shrug told me a lot. Matt, thank you so much.

EGAN: Thanks Kate.

BOLDUAN: John?

BERMAN: All right. A leadership scramble in the U.S. Senate among Democrats. Senator Dick Durbin, you're looking at him right there, announced he is not running for reelection. He is not just a senator from Illinois, he's also the Senate Democratic whip, the number two in the Senate. And that means there are people who want his job. You know, we had Senator Richard Blumenthal from Connecticut on a little while ago. He said he's already getting campaign texts and calls from senators who want that job.

But it does come as Democrats are trying to chart a course forward and they are facing headwinds. What kind of headwinds?

CNN's Chief Data Analyst Harry Enten with the wind in his sails constantly.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA REPORTER: Yes. You're the wind beneath my wings, John.

BERMAN: He's here with us. Democrats, how much has their confidence fallen in their leaders?

ENTEN: Yes. This, I think, is a revolt, a revolt that is going on within the Democratic Party right now, Democrats and their leaders. I mean, take a look nationally. Hello, Democrats on Dem leaders in Congress. The belief that they will do the right thing when it comes to the economy, last year at this time, 80 percent believe that the Democratic leaders in Congress would do the right thing when it comes to the economy.

And keep in mind, this is Democrats. Look at where we are now. That number has been slashed in half to just 39 percent. Holy Toledo, that is the lowest number by far in Gallup polling. The lowest previous was just 60 percent, which is 21 points higher than this. Democrats hate what their congressional leaders in Washington are doing right now on the key issue of the day, the economy, and their confidence has fallen through the floor, Mr. Berman.

BERMAN: All right. Chuck Schumer is the Senate Democratic leader right now. How are feelings about him, particularly in New York?

ENTEN: Yes. Let's go to the state of New York. It's what's always on my mind, right? We're in the state of New York right now. New York Democrats on Chuck Schumer view him favorably in December of 2024. That was just a few months ago. It was 73 percent. Look at where that number has fallen to in just a few months. It is now down to just 52 percent. That is the lowest I could ever find in Siena College on how Democrats in Chuck Schumer's home state view him.

And keep in mind, if you're thinking about a primary challenge, it would be a few years away, but Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's favorable rating among Democrats is considerably higher, in the 60s. So, he is doing quite poorly in his own home state of New York. I never thought I'd see the day in which just 52 percent of New York Democrats would view Chuck Schumer favorably. It's almost unfathomable.

BERMAN: Yes. And look at the footnote, the tiny footnote here. I think it will look much bigger than the Schumer team this morning, as they look at that. When you're talking about Chuck Schumer, why? Is there an answer to the question of why is ratings are dropping?

ENTEN: Yes, it's because they, simply put, don't like the job he's doing as Senate leader. I mean, look at this. Should Schumer stay as Senate leader? Again, according to New York Democrats, just 50 percent say yes. Look at this number, 48 percent say no. This screams sirens should be going off, primary challenge, primary challenge, primary challenge. When you are a Democrat in New York and these are your ratings, this is a big wakeup call if you're Chuck Schumer, John Berman.

BERMAN: Harry Enten, thank you very much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: I'm glad we're using last names this morning. Sara?

SIDNER: Using full names, full government names. Should I throw in both of your middle names? No. Maybe.

All right, an Alabama State trooper thought he'd be writing a ticket when he pulled over a speeding driver back in 2022. Instead, he convinced her to follow her dream and helped change the trajectory of her entire life.

CNN's Nick Valencia has a story in this Beyond the Call of Duty report.

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SENIOR TROOPER J.T. BROWN, ALABAMA STATE TROOPERS HIGHWAY PATROL: How are you?

ABBIE JO RTULEDGE, CERTIFIED SURGICAL TECHNOLOGIST: I'm good. You?

BROWN: Good.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): An unlikely friendship between a senior state trooper and a scrub tech.

It all started one August morning in 2022 after Abby Jo Rutledge saw Alabama State Trooper J.T. Brown in her rear view mirror on Highway 78.

BROWN: So, I hit her with my radar just like that.

VALENCIA: Rutledge was just 20 years old at the time.

What was going through your head when you got pulled over?

RUTLEDGE: Just that sinking empty stomach feeling, like I'm going to have to pay an expensive ticket.

She was shaking very bad. She was super nervous, you know, I was like, hey, we're going to try to win somebody over today. VALENCIA: Brown said he decided to take a different approach with Rutledge. The two of them ended up talking for about 10 to 15 minutes.

BROWN: She really didn't have a clue what she wanted to do with her life and maybe, I guess, me being a dad, you know, I kind of -- I was like, well, I need -- you know what?

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We need to talk about this.

RUTLEDGE: It was him telling me to start my life, or else I would get a ticket.

VALENCIA: Brown let Rutledge off with the warning and an advice that changed her life.

RUTLEDGE: Promise me you'll go to scrub a nursing school and slow down and I won't give you a ticket.

VALENCIA: Within hours of being pulled over here, you're making the decision to change your life?

RUTLEDGE: As soon as I got to where I was going, I called my mother and I said, I need your help to get me in this program.

VALENCIA: The traffic stop was serendipitous. Rutledge's mom taught Trooper Brown when he was studying to be a surgical tech himself years earlier.

BROWN: I had no clue that her mother was one of my instructors, because me and her mother obviously didn't talk about that.

VALENCIA: Last year, they were both there to see Rutledge graduate from the surgical technology program in Jasper.

When you saw him there show up at your graduation, what did you feel?

RUTLEDGE: It was just pure joy and relief really. I started crying immediately.

VALENCIA: Rutledge now works as a surgical technician at the University of Alabama Birmingham Hospital.

RUTLEDGE: If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't be here.

VALENCIA: Brown, a father himself, says his job isn't just about protecting, but also serving his community, like on the day he met Rutledge.

BROWN: I want to set an example for having my sons.

VALENCIA: Nick Valencia, CNN, Birmingham, Alabama.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BERMAN: All right. President Trump restarts the clock, saying he may impose reciprocal tariffs on China, as China calls his bluff. How will the markets react?

And breaking news this morning, President Trump calls it bad timing, the Russian airstrikes on Kyiv that left nine people dead this morning, we'll give you the very latest from the White House and whether he'll do more than just post on social media.

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SIDNER: All right. On our radar for you this morning, a cardinal convicted of financial crimes by the Vatican is claiming he can take part in the forthcoming conclave despite being listed as a non-elector cardinal Giovanni Angelo Becciu was ordered by Pope Francis to resign the rights and privilege of a cardinal in 2020 after he became embroiled in a Vatican financial scandal. The cardinal launched an appeal which is still under consideration, although he lost his rights and privileges as a cardinal. He's also allowed at this point to take part in the pre-conclave discussions.

Michelle Obama now telling why she decided to skip President Trump's second inauguration. She discussed it on her new podcast while talking to guest Taraji P. Henson,

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MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY: My decision to skip the inauguration, what people don't realize, or my decision to make choices at the beginning of this year that suited me were met with such ridicule and criticism. Like people couldn't believe that I was saying no for any other reason, that they had to assume that my marriage was falling apart.

It took everything in my power to not do the thing that was right or that was perceived as right, but do the thing that was right for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: All right. She also said that she wanted to set an example for her daughters to start practicing the art of saying no.

Archeologists in England found a man's skeleton in what's believed to be a gladiator graveyard, and it could be the first physical evidence of battle between gladiators and animals. The remains have bite marks on the pelvis, which were most likely from a lion. Research has designed 3D scans, which showed no signs of healing, implying that it led to the man's death.

Surviving artwork depicts the gladiator fights, that skeleton dates back to 1,800 years ago, and hopefully it's not the thing that just fell down from one of our balconies. Kate?

I mean, sounds like there was a gladiator fight up there. I'm concerned.

BOLDUAN: Yes. I mean, that's what -- isn't that what we -- are we in like the arena here every day? Like we barely survive it. I mean, that's why come Friday, there we go, welcome to the arena. Let the lions -- unleash the lions.

SIDNER: As Destiny's Child says, I'm a survivor. Let me go.

BOLDUAN: I'm going to go to this now.

SIDNER: And I shall leave.

BOLDUAN: I'm going to -- you get. Here we go.

SIDNER: Away from the lions.

BOLDUAN: The National Institutes of Health has hit pause on those big chunks of funding for medical research. And as part of that, Alzheimer's disease studies have been thrown into limbo, including some studies developing new treatments for Alzheimer's, others looking into ways to lower the risk of getting dementia.

CNN's Jacqueline Howard has new reporting on this and she's joining us now. And, Jacqueline, you talk to Alzheimer's scientists who are right now trying to find out if their research will continue to be funded. What did they tell you?

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: That's right, Kate. There's a lot of uncertainty out there. Many of these researchers tell me they're on edge. They're waiting to see whether their funding will be renewed.

And what we do know is that in March, 14 of the 35 Alzheimer's disease research centers here in the United States saw their funding halted. That's estimated to equal about $65 million in funding. At some of those centers, that's where there are studies waiting in limbo.

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I spoke with one scientist at Stanford, Kate, and he told me that his research team has to hold off on starting any new research projects because they're waiting to see whether their funding will be renewed. They expected a decision in February. Their funding has completely run out about three weeks.

Another researcher in Florida said his team developed a mobile app that can assess and analyze your risk dementia. That app may never reach it to the public because they're also waiting to see whether funding will be renewed.

And, Kate, you know, NIH is the largest public funder of biomedical research in the world. So, any move that NIH makes can have these sweeping consequences and ripple effects, sometimes impacting Alzheimer's studies.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Jacqueline, thank you so much for having those conversations and bringing that to us. I really appreciate it.

A new hour of CNN Central starts now.