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South African President Challenges Trump's Genocide Claims; Interview with Rep. Randy Fine (R-FL): Trump's Agenda Bill Hits Conservative Roadblock in the House; Pentagon Officially Accepts Luxury Jet From Qatar for Trump Use; Urgent Manhunt for 5 Louisiana Escapees, 5 Others Captured. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired May 21, 2025 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

LARRY MADOWO, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They would want this law to go much further than it does. They think it does not go far enough. That's what they want.

They did get some support in the last election, but not enough to form government and President Ramaphosa's ANC government decidedly chose not to go into a coalition government with them. Instead, they went to a coalition government with the Democratic Alliance, which has been traditionally seen as a white majority party. The man in the White House, John Steenhuisen, is the agriculture minister, is the leader of the DEA party, and I think that's the point that Ramaphosa tried to make there.

I have all these successful white people with me. They would not be here if there was a white genocide in our country.

KEILAR: Yes, as he pointed to his agriculture ministry, yes, 80 percent of the 63 million people in South Africa are Black, South Africans 72 percent of that land that can be privately owned held -- 72 percent of the land held by white South Africans, only 4 percent held by Black South Africans. Just important context to note in this very nuanced discussion.

Larry Madowo, thank you so much for all of that information. We really appreciate it.

Stay with CNN for more. We are going to be right back with more news.

[13:35:00]

COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Today, House Speaker Mike Johnson and some key Republican hardliners are expected to meet President Trump at the White House after a tense moment on Capitol Hill when several members of the Freedom Caucus warned they will not vote for Trump's Big, Beautiful Bill without deeper spending cuts.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: That is a significant roadblock for Speaker Mike Johnson, who says that he wants to hold a floor vote on the bill as early as tonight. Here's one of the key Republican holdouts, Texas Congressman Chip Roy earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX), FREEDOM CAUCUS: We want to save money. We want to save as much money as we can. But we want to do it the right way to deliver for hardworking Americans who are getting left behind by government here, Republican and Democrat, who keep spending money we don't have, racking up massive amounts of debt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN's Manu Raju is live for us on Capitol Hill. He was there for that testy exchange. What are these Freedom Caucus members asking for exactly, Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they want deeper cuts into Medicaid. They also want to deal with the issue of green energy tax breaks that were enacted as part of the Democrats' Inflation Reduction Act under the initial proposal that would be phased out in a longer time frame than they are willing to accept. They want that to be phased out immediately.

But there's a problem. There's pushback in the ranks from more moderate members who are concerned about those green energy taxes in their districts. Also, some of those more moderate members are worried about deeper cuts into Medicaid.

Already, there's going to be substantial pullback on federal support to Medicaid programs and changes including new work requirements for Medicaid beneficiaries. There's concern about some of those more moderate members about impacting that program even more.

But nevertheless, the decision by Speaker Johnson and the White House is to essentially cut a deal with those moderate members and hope that a pressure campaign will force some of these Republican conservative hardliners to fold.

And I caught up with some of those opponents of the bill right now. They are mainly concerned about the deficit projections in this bill, which could be, according to the Congressional Budget Office, $3.8 trillion to budget deficits over the next several years. Several of them told me that is the reason why, at the moment, they are a no.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEITH SELF (R-TX): My concern about the deficit and the debt is tremendous. This bill, in its entirety, the way $36 trillion now in debt to $56 trillion goes through, the way it is written, with no fraud, waste, and abuse taken out of Medicaid, we would own Obamacare, not repeal it.

REP. WARREN DAVIDSON (R-OH): Apparently, the bill spends more money than the status quo. I mean, so, it doesn't actually help deficits, it actually hurts the deficits.

RAJU: If the Speaker brings this to the floor tonight -- DAVIDSON: I think the bill is going to have problems.

RAJU: It could add to the deficit trillions.

REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): It's going to, absolutely. It's not as good as I want it to be.

But, if the Democrats control the bill, it would be even bigger and more spending, it would be in more deficits.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU (on camera): And that last congressman, Congressman Richard McCormick, indicating that he is going to support this bill, which is what the White House hopes, ultimately, some of these conservatives agree to. They say they may not like it, they may not like how they dealt with cutting federal spending, but at the end of the day, this is the deal, this is Trump's agenda, that is on the line, that needs to pass for a whole variety of reasons. Even though those same members say, give us more time to negotiate, we're not ready to vote on this yet.

The question is, what will happen? As the Speaker is still pushing ahead, still wants to vote as soon as tonight, potentially tomorrow, but he can only afford a straight party line vote on this sweeping bill that deals with everything from tax cuts, to spending cuts, to more defense spending, changes to immigration law and the like, but after they pass it in the House, if they pass it in the House, it goes over to the United States Senate.

But this is a first key step. Can they get there? It requires some give from those conservative hardliners. Will they give in to the White House pressure campaign? That remains to be seen -- guys.

SANCHEZ: And they are set to meet with President Trump later today. We'll see how that meeting goes. Manu Raju, live on Capitol Hill, thank you so much.

Joining us now to discuss is Republican Congressman Randy Fine of the state of Florida. Congressman, great to see you again. Thanks for joining us.

I wonder if you think Speaker Johnson is going to have the votes tonight to pass this bill.

[13:40:00]

REP. RANDY FINE (R-FL): Well, I know he'll have my vote. The fact of the matter is we've got to support President Trump in getting his agenda done. And people who consider voting against this bill need to understand they are voting to keep illegal immigrants on Medicaid.

They are voting against building a border wall. They are voting to keep illegals in the country. They are voting not to fully fund the border police. So I think that people need to keep in mind the big picture. This is

not the only bill we will ever pass. We need to move the ball down the field. And then we need to keep looking for more cuts down the road.

SANCHEZ: Well, on that, I think that, for example, Congressman Chip Roy would take exception to the idea that he's voting for keeping undocumented migrants receiving Medicaid. I think his argument is that this bill, the way that it's formed now, would actually add trillions of dollars to the deficit. The CBO had it at, I think, $3.8 trillion. Do you think that these Republicans have a point that there needs to be more cuts? What would you like to see?

FINE: I absolutely think they have a point. And I am frustrated by anything that we do that is not balanced. But this is not the only bill we will ever pass and vote on.

And I think we need to continue to do those things. It is true, the things that Congressman Roy is saying, and I understand his frustration, and I subscribe to a lot of it. But you can't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

And you have to acknowledge that half a loaf of bread is better than no loaf at all. And if we don't pass this, we have to look at what that means. It's a massive tax increase on Americans.

SANCHEZ: So you would be confident that in the future, Republicans would have the political support to pass further cuts to Medicaid or SNAP benefits?

FINE: I'm not saying where the cuts have to come from. But the fact of the matter is, as a country, we cannot spend more money than we take in forever. And so we are going to have to solve this problem as a nation at some point, and at some point soon.

But this bill moves the ball down the field on the Trump agenda. I think we need to pass it, and then I think we need to keep moving forward.

SANCHEZ: So I wanted to get some specifics from you on some of the changes. And I understand that more than one in five people in your district rely on Medicaid. I wonder if you have an estimate of how many of them might be impacted by these new proposed eligibility standards.

FINE: Well, the great news is in Florida, we are not a blue state. We did not expand Medicaid to able-bodied adults who choose not to work. So all those work requirements that they worry about, I can tell you how many people that will affect in my district. The answer is none.

And one of my frustrations with all of this is we seem to be deferring to bad blue state decisions in how we worry about these things. Medicaid is supposed to be a program for the disadvantaged, for the vulnerable, not for adults who want to stay at home and play video games.

SANCHEZ: So, Congressman, I just want to make sure I have this correct, because my reading, my understanding of this bill, is that the Medicaid eligibility work requirements or community service requirements are not just based on states that expanded Medicaid. These are nationwide eligibility requirements. So are you saying that you're confident that no one in your district is going to be affected by eligibility requirements that, again, are nationwide?

FINE: I'm not saying no one. But the big issue in the expansion of Medicaid --

SANCHEZ: You said zero a second ago, sir.

FINE: Well, the reason we have opposed it in Florida is because the expansion of Medicaid was to give able-bodied childless adults the ability to get Medicaid.

The fact of the matter is if you are able-bodied and childless, you should go and get a job. And I have no issue with making those folks go and get a job. I hope that we do that. I hope we do that immediately.

SANCHEZ: Understood. I just, again, want to be as precise as possible. The work eligibility requirements or community service requirements don't just apply to states that expanded Medicaid, so they would apply to folks in your district. It's not zero.

FINE: But, no, I don't think you're -- the Medicaid expansion was to able-bodied childless adults. We didn't do that. What I worry about Medicaid for is the 3- or 4-year-old child. For kids, none of these expansions -- none of these changes will affect a child that is on Medicaid. That's who I'm worried about. And when we continue to spend money on able-bodied childless adults, we take that money away from the kids who actually need it.

I chaired health care in Florida for two years. I am not worried about the changes that we are talking about at all.

SANCHEZ: So the number is somewhere between zero and an amorphous estimate. I want to get your thoughts on SNAP benefits as well. The Congressional Budget Office says the bill would cut $267 billion from SNAP benefits.

Some 3 million Floridians rely upon those SNAP benefits. Do you have a ballpark number of how many people in your district would stop receiving those?

FINE: I haven't, but what I do know is most of those SNAP benefit cuts are focused on getting illegal immigrants to stop getting them, and I don't have any issue.

[13:45:00]

We also have massive SNAP fraud that we've observed in Florida, where people get SNAP cards and they sell them. I actually tried to get a bill passed once that said, after you lose your card for the third time, you have to pay a fee, because the problem was people weren't losing their cards, they were going out and selling them. These programs have massive waste, fraud, and abuse in them. Democrats don't want to tackle them, Republicans do.

SANCHEZ: There is a concern also, Congressman, that people who should be receiving these benefits are not. There's actually an estimate from the Department of Agriculture that 47 percent of Florida seniors who are eligible for SNAP benefits aren't getting them. I wonder if this bill addresses that.

FINE: Well, if they're eligible for them and they're not getting them, that's a choice that they would have made, but we won't be changing the eligibility for them. I don't know what that would have to do with anything in the bill. If they're eligible for them, they can get them.

But look, most people perhaps want to take care of themselves. They want to be self-reliant. They don't want to depend on the government for their everyday expenses.

SANCHEZ: Or they may not be aware that they are eligible for that kind of help as well. Congressman Randy Fine, we have to leave the conversation there, but we appreciate you sharing your point of view.

FINE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Brianna.

KEILAR: We do have some breaking news into CNN. Despite bipartisan criticism, the Pentagon says it has accepted that Boeing 747 jet from Qatar and that President Trump will use it once it has been modified. Trump has been pitching this as a replacement to Air Force One.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is live from the Pentagon. Natasha, what are you hearing? And talk about some of the various concerns about the president taking this plane.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna, we're just getting this news in from the chief Pentagon spokesman, Sean Parnell, who told CNN in a statement that, quote, the Secretary of Defense has accepted this Boeing 747 from Qatar in accordance with all federal rules and regulations. He said that the Department of Defense will work to ensure proper security measures and functional mission requirements are considered for an aircraft used to transport the president of the United States.

Now, that really gets to the heart of the controversy over this, not only the possibility at this point that this is going to be gifted by Qatar to the Trump administration instead of purchased by the Trump administration, which raises all kinds of ethical questions, but also the fact that being given an aircraft by a foreign government for the president of the United States to use is very dicey, to say the least, and it's going to require extensive modifications to the aircraft before President Trump can even safely use it.

And to that end, the Air Force did tell us in a statement that they're preparing to award a contract to a contractor, to a defense contractor, to begin the modifications on this aircraft that will be necessary before President Trump can use it as a kind of temporary Air Force One. Now, we should note that this has, as you mentioned, been mired in

controversy for weeks, ever since it emerged that the Trump administration was in these conversations with Qatar about accepting this luxury jet because President Trump has really been frustrated by the pace of Boeing's construction of two jets that were going to be the new Air Force One to replace the very aging model that exists right now. And so the Trump administration began reaching out and exploring other options. One of those options was this jet that Qatar has been trying to sell.

But again, there are still so many questions here. And, in fact, a person familiar with the matter kind of poured cold water on the idea that this is going to happen immediately, saying that, look, all of the talks about this transfer are still ongoing. There are a number of legal issues that still need to be worked out here -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, and to get it in operational shape to be an Air Force One will take considerable time and expense. We'll see that. Natasha Bertrand from the Pentagon, thank you so much.

We'll be right back.

[13:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: It's been five days since one of Louisiana's biggest jailbreaks ever, and half of the 10 escapees are still on the run. State police announced the arrest of Corey Boyd last night. He's the fifth inmate to be captured after breaking out of a New Orleans jail last Friday.

And just like the others who were back in custody, Boyd was spotted within the city of New Orleans. This map shows you exactly where everyone was apprehended in relation to the detention facility.

KEILAR: In the meantime, the fallout from this escape has prompted the Orleans Parish Sheriff, Susan Hudson, to temporarily suspend her reelection campaign. Let's turn now to CNN Senior National Correspondent Ryan Young. Ryan, what's the latest here on this manhunt?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're told this manhunt is active and ongoing, especially with Crime Stoppers helping out. That $20,000 per head is really helping people to call in. As you noted, most of the people captured so far in the New Orleans area seemed like they had a good plan to sort of get out of jail but not what to do sort of afterwards.

Of course, there was that jail employee who was arrested for turning off the water. That's a big part of this story because without that water being turned off, they wouldn't have been able to make it through that hole and get across the interstate. Still right now, hundreds of agents are working through the area.

These mugshots that we're showing you right now have been very helpful in terms of the public being able to show these pictures and get that information coming in. But still, there's an active investigation ongoing. There could be more arrests.

Take a listen to the AG talk about the next moves moving forward.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ MURRILL, LOUISIANA ATTORNEY GENERAL: They had certainly had the time to leave the state. My gut tells me that most of them are probably staying close to home unless they have significant resources somewhere else.

I mean, you're just unlikely to go somewhere where you have zero support or help and most of these, if not all of these individuals grew up in New Orleans. You know, they were young children really around the time of Hurricane Katrina. Their resources are here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:55:02]

YOUNG: Yes, Brianna and Boris, something that stood out to us, if we could show those mugshots again, there's Massey who's also still out there -- Antoine Massey. He apparently escaped from another facility back in 2019 and is someone who was able to clip through some wire, go under a fence and get out.

So he's been an escape artist before. We believe he may be the one who threatened that worker inside the jail. So the details about this keep rolling out.

You also have to remember this investigation is still ongoing. And what happened into that jail, the governor sending in some seasoned state auditors, 10 of them that should arrive there at the jail to go through that place with a fine-tooth comb. So we should get more information pretty soon.

KEILAR: All right, Ryan, we'll be looking for that. Ryan Young, thank you.

And ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, we're following the fallout from a tense meeting at the White House between the president of South Africa challenging President Trump's claims of white genocide in South Africa.

We'll have new details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END