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Jeff Flake is Interviewed about Tariffs; Elyana Funk is Interviewed about the Colorado Attack; O-T Fagbenle is Interviewed about "The Handmaid's Tale." Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired June 02, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Served as ambassador to Turkey in the Biden administration, who just wrote an op-ed about really the U.S. position in the world and what you would like to see senators, particularly Republican senators, saying about it into the administration right now.

So, when you hear that investors are beginning to say, you know what, we got to look elsewhere from the United States, what message does that send to you?

JEFF FLAKE, FORMER U.S. SENATOR (R-AZ) AND FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO TURKEY: Well, I'm not surprised at all. We're seeing that in terms of -- of their willingness to join security alliances or, or, you know, trade groups. This is not good to have the U.S. as the unreliable partner. You know, that's what -- that's been our hallmark, you could rely on the United States. But a lot of countries are feeling they simply can't. Whether it's on trade or buying our debt or security alliances. That's not a place we want to be in.

BERMAN: So, in terms of speaking out against the administration when they say things they don't like, what are you seeing from your former Senate colleagues, and what do you think would accomplish if they did stand up to the administration?

FLAKE: Well, what I'm saying is you can't, you know, speak out on everything that the president says. Every, you know, piece of coarse language or whatnot. You'd just be talking all the time.

But when the president talks to our allies and basically tells them to cede territory or give up their sovereignty, you know, then members of Congress need to -- need to talk to our allies and say, that's not us. We're not going to be there. And we're going to push back.

What I have seen gratefully in the last couple of days, Lindsey Graham, a Republican senator, was in Ukraine with Sidney Blumenthal. That's a good thing. So -- so, anyway, that -- there needs to be some pushback on foreign policy, certainly on tariffs and trade. And -- and when the administration goes too far in areas where the Congress should be working, then the Congress needs to speak up.

BERMAN: What evidence have you seen that this president listens? FLAKE: Well, he may not have, but Congress is a co-equal branch of

government. Congress has the power of the purse. The Congress doesn't need the president to say, hey, we agree with you. The Congress simply needs to act.

And in areas when it can't act, it needs to speak up and just remind our allies that we're still their allies. That's important.

One thing I learned as a senator, and as an ambassador, is that members -- I'm sorry, foreign leaders, they look at the Senate. They look at the House. They want to know what members of Congress are saying. They know that foreign policy starts with the administration, but that Congress is a co-equal branch of government, that senators are elected to six year terms, sometimes they're elected for decades. One, you know, one term after another. And that's important in terms of continuity of foreign policy. So, it's important for Republican members of Congress, especially right now, to speak up and speak out.

BERMAN: And sometimes they're like for decades or even longer, Senator.

I want to lean on your expertise as a former member of the House and Senate. And I think you still probably have some of the scars from the budget and funding battles that you've participated in, in both chambers. It's interesting because you -- you were critical, I think, of the president's tariffs right now. And the president's own approval rating did dip while he was pushing the highest end of the tariffs before he backed off again.

And it's an interesting trend in polling because while the tariffs were unpopular, it hasn't necessarily hurt the Republican brand that much. Our Harry Enten just -- just put together some polling that we took a look at right now. And it asked people, you know, which party is closer to your economic views? And in November of 2023 it was the Republicans by 11 points. And in May of 2025, it -- it's only slipped a tiny little bit, by three points there for the Republicans. And a Reuters IPSOS poll asked which party has a better economic plan. And in May of 2024 it was the Republicans by nine. It actually has gone up to May of 2025 right now to 12 point edge for the Republicans.

How do you explain these numbers if the tariffs are so unpopular? And, in your mind, wrongheaded?

FLAKE: Well, I think most people, most of our foreign allies and -- and adversaries both have seen the U.S. back off, to come to the brink and then back off and back off. And I think the markets will treat it that way, that the tariffs aren't going to go into effect.

But if the tariffs do stay in, the higher tariffs I'm talking about, then that's going to be highly inflationary. Then it starts to impact the cost of groceries and everything else. And that will not be popular. That will have a big impact in the midterms.

So, to the extent that the tariffs are actually going to stick, then that's going to be a big problem. But if they're just threatened, then it's -- it's certainly chaotic. It's not good. But the outcome, if tariffs remain low, then it's not going to be as bad for the economy.

[09:35:09]

BERMAN: (INAUDIBLE) economic plans. What would you suggest to them?

FLAKE: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last question.

BERMAN: I was going to say, Senator, you're -- you're -- you're pretty free with giving out advice to anyone who will take it from you. You're giving advice to some of your Republican colleagues in terms of foreign policy. But what about the Democrats in Congress right now who haven't gained much traction on their economic message? What would you tell Democrats they should focus on in the economy?

FLAKE: Well, I'd focus on the Democrat -- or the, I'm sorry, the right economic message. Good regulatory environment, low tax environment. I think that's why Republicans have the edge, because most people see that the economy does better when we have a good, regulatory environment that's conducive to economic growth, a good tax environment. And Republicans have been far better on that score. If Democrats can join them on that score, but also be anti- tariffs and -- and anti-chaos basically, be a -- a steady partner, that our -- our allies can come to rely on, and our trade partners, that will be good for the Democrats.

BERMAN: So, former senator, former Ambassador Jeff Flake, nice to talk to you this morning. Thank you very much.

Authorities in Colorado are gathering new details about the man accused of carrying an attack during a march in Boulder, Colorado. I'm going to speak with a community leader about that attack and fears now inside the community.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:40:56]

BERMAN: All right, the breaking news out of Boulder, Colorado. Police say a man used a makeshift flamethrower and threw Molotov cocktails into a crowd, setting several people on fire. At least eight people were injured, including, we're told, a Holocaust survivor. The suspect allegedly yelled "free Palestine" during this attack.

With us now is the executive director of the University of Colorado Boulder Hillel, Elyana Funk.

Thank you so much for being with us.

I do understand that you do know some of the victims here and have had a chance to speak with them. How are they and what have they told you about what happened?

ELYANA FUNK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COLORADO UNIVERSITY BOULDER HILLEL: Right. Well, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to be here and share some of our story from Boulder. And, yes, I know several of the people who were injured in the attack.

A few of them are friends of mine. And they're well-known folks in the community that a lot of us in our tight-knit community know.

And I did get to speak with a couple of them yesterday. And, as you said, one of the -- the women who was injured, her mother, who was also injured, is a Holocaust survivor in her 80s who's been through certainly enough trauma.

But the friend that I spoke to last night, who was injured, you know, she felt like this happened to her, of course, and she's healing from horrible burns. But she really felt like this happened, not just to her, but to the whole community, and the Jewish community and the larger community. This was a trauma that affects a lot of people.

And she -- she also really wanted me to know and -- and everyone to know that this walk that she and others, these were people in their 60s, 70s and 80s who were injured, this wasn't a pro-Israel rally or some sort of political statement on the war. These are peaceful people who've been walking for nearly 20 months weekly to bring awareness for the hostages, 58 people who are still held in Gaza, 20 of whom are known to be living. And this was not, like I said, some sort of political statement, but rather a peaceful walk to make sure the world doesn't forget about those who are being held captive.

BERMAN: I know you've taken part in the walk before, and I am unsure what the plans are for this walk going forward, but how would you feel walking next week given the environment that's out there?

FUNK: Right. So, this is a walk I've participated in. You know, I participated in it with my six-year-old son and with several of the CU Boulder Hillel students here on campus who have come to participate in it. It's an event that really brings the community together peacefully.

My understanding is the walk is on hold for now for security reasons. And I think something -- you know, an attack like this, of course, you know, encourages us to strengthen our security and our safety. Along with other local Jewish leaders, we are in touch with local and national law enforcement and are very grateful for their quick response. That's something that makes us feel safer.

So, certainly, we think about safety and security, but we also come together as a community at this time. And really, I share with others that the antidote for anti-Semitism can be Jewish joy and Jewish community and Jewish connection. And so, we continue on and we come together in times like this. And I'm inspired by our -- our local, thriving Jewish community. Both -- we have 3,000 undergraduate Jewish students at CU Boulder and a thriving Jewish community here in Boulder and throughout the state of Colorado. And something like this, for unfortunate reasons, brings us together and makes us stronger as we navigate the days ahead.

BERMAN: Elyana Funk, it's an inspiring message, trying to find hope in something like this. Please, pass on our regards and our thoughts to your friends who -- who were victims inside that attack. Let them know we are thinking about them. And we do appreciate you being with us this morning.

[09:45:01]

FUNK: Thank you very much.

BERMAN: So, Ukraine launched its most ambitious round of surprise attacks since the start of the war. These attacks deep, deep inside Russia. What this could mean for the peace talks that are now underway.

And this morning, behind the scenes details on the series finale of the hit show "The Handmaids Tale" kind of from an inside source who you may recognize.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hulu's Emmy Award winning show, "The Handmaid's Tale," has officially come to an end. The series, based on the novel by Margaret Atwood, imagined a totalitarian society where Elisabeth Moss starred as June Osborne, a woman forced into servitude in an alternate America.

[09:50:11]

After six amazing yet intense seasons, the final episodes delivered what a lot of people see as a mix of heartbreak and hope, and a lot more to come, it seems, for several characters, including June's husband Luke.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't take this. They ran June down in the street, man. They shot down your planes. I can't save Hannah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That wasn't your fault.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't care. They still got my daughter. You know -- you know what they do to those girls, right? Right? Do you know what they do to those girls? Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And she's getting older every f-ing day. I'm not just going to sit here and wait, all right? I got to do something. So? So what? So what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mayday's (ph) doing something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? Wait, what? What are they doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to identify the commanders who shot our planes down and kept you from Hannah, and kill them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait, you don't -- you don't even know what that means.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't matter, I'm in. I'm in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Joining us now is Luke, Emmy nominated actor, director, writer, and producer, O-T Fagbenle.

It's good to see you. Thank you so much for being here.

O-T FAGBENLE, PLAYED LUKE BANKOLE IN "THE HANDMAID'S TALE": Thanks for bringing me in.

BOLDUAN: What does it feel like to wrap a project that you -- I mean, a character you have been developing, a character that's been a part of you for a decade now?

FAGBENLE: Yes, it's kind of overwhelming in a way. It's very lucky to be part of a -- a TV show, which isn't just, like, artistically interesting, but also has some social commentary. But I think the main thing is I got to work with some extraordinary talents off screen and on screen. And so, I feel really grateful.

BERMAN: For a long time. I mean it started shooting in 2015 you were saying.

FAGBENLE: Yes, that's right.

BERMAN: And your character changed a lot over the, you know, I guess it was six seasons, but ten years, right?

FAGBENLE: Right. Right.

BERMAN: I mean, it kind of -- timid a little at the beginning, maybe, and kind of ending up as a badass. But I mean -- I mean how is it -- how -- what is it like to find that evolution as an actor?

FAGBENLE: Well, it's a testament to the writers, really. They're always willing to, like, challenge the characters and put them in situations where they're forced to change. And -- and just like you said, Luke starts out like an every man. He -- he's not an action hero. But by the end, they -- they give him some -- some gusto.

BERMAN: Yes, they did. Right.

FAGBENLE: Yes.

BOLDUAN: And, I mean, the story -- "The Handmaid's Tale" in general, and when we -- we all know the novel so well, but "The Handmaid's Tale" and production, as you said, began in 2015 and coincided with a period of time when there are a lot of people making a lot of connections, saying social commentary about the state of the United States and how it coincided with a lot of fears associated with Donald Trump as he was coming into office. And now it ends in a second Trump term. I mean, the connection for you and the social commentary that you've seen as you've tracked it, what does it feel like? FAGBENLE: Well, I mean, it's kind of bizarre. You know, Margaret

Atwood, who wrote the source material, "The Handmaid's Tale," everything that happened to women in that happened in real life somewhere in the world. And -- and not just in the U.S. All around the world people are facing challenges with women's reproductive rights, with the challenges of overly powerful regimes taking power away from the disenfranchised.

And, you know, unfortunately, these themes are still with us. What I like most about "The Handmaid's Tale" is, ultimately it's a tale of hope, it's a tale of resistance, that there is a way of kind of fighting for change. And even if we do have setbacks, we've got to keep going.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: There's also a lot of just -- in the book and in the series -- big issues, but also cold realities and cold feeling decisions and heard from a lot of fans about the ultimate parting of -- of Luke and June at the end, which was in some ways cold. You just, you know, after our marriage (ph), like, walked away, head different places and there are people, I'm sorry, spoiler alert for people who haven't watched the end yet, but there are people saying that, you know, wow, I'm just so surprised there wasn't a bigger moment there or even a hug. I mean, what do you think about that?

FAGBENLE: Yes, I think it's a -- it's a really good point. But it's interesting what happens to relationships over time and over stress. And indeed, you know, losing a child, having it -- a child kidnaped, it -- it's terrifying what happens to a relationship to those parents. And so I think their ending kind of represents like their intimacy is different. It isn't a physical intimacy so much as an emotional one.

BOLDUAN: On that the -- I saw "The Hollywood Reporter" describing it as like, left a lot unsaid in that last parting scene between Luke and June. Do you like that as an actor, kind of leaving a lot for the audience and the viewer for interpretation? Like, how does that feel as an actor?

FAGBENLE: To be honest, I love it. Like, to me, that's one of the great things about "Handmaid's Tale."

[09:55:02]

It's very sparse in terms of the dialog. It leaves a lot of space for the audience to come and meet us and to put their own experiences within there.

BOLDUAN: Sure.

FAGBENLE: And so I think that's what the best art does, it -- it provokes thoughts and emotions and feelings and then lets the audience do the rest.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: So, you know, 11-year, ten-year run, it's a pretty good job security there. Not that we --

FAGBENLE: For an actor, yes.

BERMAN: For anyone. Well, yes, anyone in a business with cameras right now.

BOLDUAN: (INAUDIBLE)

FAGBENLE: Right.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: So, what's next?

FAGBENLE: Well, you know, I've got a number of things going on. I wrote and directed a show called "MAXXX." It's on Hulu now. It's a comedy. And I'm getting a chance to do another comedy right now called "The Miniature Wife," which is going to be on Peacock, and a couple of other projects.

BERMAN: A few more laughs than "Handmaid's Tale."

FAGBENLE: Yes, just a couple.

BOLDUAN: Needed a moment, right?

FAGBENLE: Yes.

BOLDUAN: It's great to meet you. Thanks for coming in and sharing this with us.

FAGBENLE: Thank you so much for having me.

BERMAN: Thanks so much.

BOLDUAN: And congratulations on a wild success with this project.

FAGBENLE: Appreciate that. Thank you.

BERMAN: And thank you all for being with us today. You know, happy 45 years to CNN, by the way.

BOLDUAN: Oh, I thought I was going to have -- I was like, I am not there yet, John.

BERMAN: No, no, no, Kate Bolduan's been alive for almost half of it. Forty-five years for CNN.

BOLDUAN: Sorry (ph), guys.

BERMAN: "THE SITUATION ROOM" up next.

BOLDUAN: Frozen in time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)