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Dershowitz: Maxwell Is "Rosetta Stone," Would Testify With Immunity; Vietnam Tourist Boat Accident Deaths Rise To 36, Three Missing; Murder Trial Resumes For Colorado Dentist Accused Of Poisoning Wife. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired July 21, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: President Trump has now hit the six-month mark since returning to the Oval Office. Some new data shows Americans are actually getting more dissatisfied with him in one of the key issues he campaigned on, immigration. A new CNN poll shows a growing number of American surveyed say the president has gone too far in carrying out deportations.

I want to bring in CNN's Alayna Treene who is at the White House with more. So, Alayna, where do these numbers showing -- how does that fit into overall in what the president has largely campaigned and led his administration on?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, Omar. I mean, immigration, of course, and specifically the ramping up of the deportation of undocumented immigrants in this country is a key issue if not the key issue of Trump's second term, and especially on the campaign trail. The president often remarked both privately and publicly that he believed immigration and the deportation of immigrants was going to be the top issue in Americans' mind.

And this new CNN polling really shows fresh insight into how Americans are feeling about it now that we've hit that six-month mark into the president's second term.

I just want to break down some of the numbers for you. So this poll from CNN and SSRS was conducted on July 10 through July 13.

And on the question of when it comes to deporting undocumented immigrants, the question was: Has Trump gone too far? Fifty-five percent of Americans say that they believe he has. That's compared -- that's up, I should say, to 52 percent in April and 45 percent in February.

And then on the broader view of the president's immigration policies and just getting into some of the specific different points here. So when you look at the increasing of the ICE -- Immigration and Customs Enforcement budget by billions, 31 percent of Americans say they support that compared to 53 percent who oppose it.

On this question of trying to end birthright citizenship, 28 percent support that compared with 59 percent who oppose it. You can see some of these other numbers, including building new

detention centers -- 26 percent only support that. And detaining undocumented immigrations with no criminal records, 23 percent.

Again, this is the issue, Omar, that the president campaigned on. And I can tell you from my conversations here at the White House with several different officials, they still believe that this is one of their winning issues. They believe that immigration and the policies that they are enacting is still a winning issue.

But again, when you look at these numbers -- I mean, still there is support among the base for a lot of this but Americans -- I mean, the broader American public -- you can see that their satisfaction with this is waning. And I think, of course, a key question is what has changed?

We've now seen many Americans are seeing some of these ICE raids carried out in their communities. We've heard now the president even saying himself that different communities -- the farming industry, the hospitality industry are complaining about some of these deportations -- all to say taking stock of where this is, unclear whether this would actually change the Trump administration's mind.

I can tell you when they released this broader press release yesterday marking his six months in office immigration was one of the key things they were championing.

JIMENEZ: Yeah. No indications they plan to slow down their efforts at this point.

Alayna Treene, appreciate the reporting as always -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: There is new video into CNN this morning showing the moment an anti-ICE protest turned violent. Protesters and police clashing on the bridge that connects Kentucky and Ohio. You can see -- we're going to show you the moment when a police officer strikes a man in the head while other officers are attempting to take him to the ground. Now that man is speaking out about what happened. At least 13 people were arrested in this.

CNN's Rafael Romo is tracking all of this for us, and he joins us now. And Rafael, what's the latest?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN Kate, good morning.

At the center of all this is a 51-year-old man by the name of Ayman Soliman whose asylum status was reversed in early June as part of an immigration process that started late last year. The Associated Press reports the Muslim chaplain was detained on July 9 during a check-in with immigration officials in Ohio.

In an interview before his arrest, Soliman discussed what would happen to him if he's deported back to his native country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) AYMAN SOLIMAN, CHAPLAIN DETAINED BY ICE: If anything happens -- just to speak about me going back to Egypt for me is a death sentence. It's not -- I didn't come to America seeking a better life. It was escaping death from the regime and their supporters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: And Kate, as for why he was detained in the first place a top Homeland Security official said that "...this Egyptian national was flagged on the FBI terror watchlist. He had his asylum status revoked."

Soliman's arrest sparked a protest on Thursday that started peacefully but quickly turned chaotic and violent when demonstrators decided to block a bridge that carries traffic between Ohio and Kentucky. One of those protesters says he was injured in a confrontation with Covington police as officers were trying to disperse people blocking traffic on the bridge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON HILL, PROTESTER: Everything happened so quickly. I just know that I was fired at. I had shots on my leg. If there was an ask or an order to disperse, I personally didn't hear it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[07:35:00]

ROMO: But police say Hill not only ignored orders to disperse but also tried to get a pepper ball gun from the officer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF BRIAN VALENTI, COVINGTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: What happened here wasn't a protest; it was -- it was an unlawful disturbance. We don't mess around on bridges. This is not an intersection. It's not in a park. It's not on a sidewalk. This is on a bridge and almost 100 feet above water, so it's very dangerous, precarious situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: And finally, Kate, more than a dozen people were arrested in the protest at the bridge, including two journalists.

Now back to you.

BOLDUAN: All right, more to learn here. Rafael, thank you very much for that -- Omar.

JIMENEZ: All right. Joining me now is Democratic Congresswoman Jennifer McClellan of Virginia to talk about this and more. Thank you for being here.

REP. JENNIFER MCCLELLAN (D-VA): Thank you. JIMENEZ: So we've been talking about the latest CNN polling. Fifty- five percent of those polled say the president has gone too far when it comes to deporting migrants living in the United States illegally, which is up 10 points since February.

But I should also mention when you break it down between Democrat and Republican it -- they couldn't be further apart. Ninety percent of Democratic aligned adults polled say it's gone too far while just 15 percent of Republican aligned adults say the same.

So I guess the question is do those results surprise you, and how do you anticipate the issue of deportation and immigration playing into the midterms next year?

MCCLELLAN: They don't surprise me because what I have seen in my own district in Virginia, in particular, early on is a dissatisfaction with the way and frankly outrage with the way the Trump administration is doing these mass deportations. In my own district in Chesterfield County, ICE is showing up at the courthouse detaining people who are showing up for traffic infractions or who have traffic infractions and are showing up for immigration cases.

And it's really affecting public safety. We are seeing our prosecutors, our police chief, our sheriff are all saying this is making people less safe because fewer people are reporting crimes. Fewer people are willing to testify or press charges -- even citizens who are immigrants because they are afraid of what may happen if they show up at the courthouse.

JIMENEZ: So you've noticed a change, I guess, in daily life in your district.

MCCLELLAN: I have.

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

MCCLELLAN: I mean, we have a lot of people -- a lot of immigrants and a vibrant immigrant community including citizens who are afraid to show up in public spaces and in the courthouse. It is making our communities less safe. We have parents who are afraid to send their kids to school, who are afraid to show up at hospitals, who are afraid to go to church because they just don't know what's going to happen.

JIMENEZ: And obviously the big test for this comes when voters have the chance to go to the ballot box in the -- in the midterms next year.

And I want to get your take because looking ahead to that some of the CNN polling we've done showed 72 percent of Democrats and Democratic aligned registered voters say they're extremely motivated to vote in next year's election, which is much higher than Republicans. But at the same time just 58 percent of Democrats and Democratic aligned voters had a favorable view of the party.

And so how do you bridge the gap between the enthusiasm but with also favorability of people they actually want to put in office? MCCLELLAN: You know, I think the Democratic Party -- we have a lot of work to do to make sure we are meeting voters where they are. Listening to what they have to say and talking to them about the issues that they want us to take action on. And we know that there are a lot of people who are -- who are -- who think we need to fight harder against the Trump administration.

And I think the challenge for us is making sure we are communicating what we are doing in every way that people receive information.

But what's going to matter is what we're doing on the ground in these districts. And when we show up in these districts, meet voters where they are, talking about our vision for the future and what we're going to do to stop the excesses of the Trump administration, we're going to win. We've seen that in special elections since the Trump administration.

And in Virginia we've got an election right now --

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

MCCLELLAN: -- that's going to be a canary in the coal mine, and we are doing everything we need to do to turn that enthusiasm out -- get those voters out to vote in the -- in the November election.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, one of the strategies in that election -- sort of fighting fire with fire -- it seems like redistricting is going to be an issue here.

We've already seen Texas Governor Greg Abbott announcing he would move forward with asking the State Legislature to redraw Texas' maps after a push from the White House. It seems we may seem a similar -- we may see a similar effort from California Governor Gavin Newsom even though the dynamics in that state are a little bit different than Texas.

But I guess my question is do you support that type of effort in regards to strategy for the midterm elections?

MCCLELLAN: You know, I think generally voters choose their elected officials and not the other way around. And I have always been a proponent of redistricting that keeps communities together and produces fair competitive results.

[07:40:05]

But Republicans --

JIMENEZ: But not partisan redistricting as -- you introduced an act before sort of going against partisan redistricting.

MCCLELLAN: In an ideal world --

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

MCCLELLAN: -- that's exactly right. I think Republicans need to understand if they go down this path that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And they can't expect Democrats to sit back and let them change the rules of the game and not respond.

But ideally, everybody should keep redistricting once every 10 years to create fair maps that allow voters to elect their representatives rather than representatives to choose their constituents.

JIMENEZ: So just to be clear, you support sort of fighting back against Republican redistricting even if it's --

MCCLELLAN: I think we need to -- I think we would --

JIMENEZ: -- with your own redistricting.

MCCLELLAN: We need to look at all options on the table, including lawsuits and including in some states where we can move forward doing so. If Republicans go down this path, look at responding in-kind.

JIMENEZ: Congresswoman Jennifer McClellan of Virginia. I really appreciate it. Thanks for being here.

MCCLELLAN: Thank you. Thank you.

JIMENEZ: Kate.

BOLDUAN: This morning the Trump administration is facing more fallout from their handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case. Calls growing louder within Congress, for one, for Ghislaine Maxwell, the longtime Epstein associate who was convicted of child sex trafficking offenses related to the investigation -- calling for her to testify about what she knows. Conversation now around that.

And now attorney Alan Dershowitz, who was once an attorney for Jeffrey Epstein, says that he believes Maxwell would be willing to testify before Congress if given use immunity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, FORMER EPSTEIN ATTORNEY: She knows everything. She is the Rosetta Stone. She knows everything. She arranged every single trip with everybody. She knows everything. And if she was just given use immunity she could be compelled to testify. I'm told that she actually would be willing to testify and there'd be no reason for her to withhold any information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Adding to the spectacle now, after that, a source close to Maxwell told CNN that she has not had any discussions about testifying before Congress and also that Alan Dershowitz has had no contact with her.

Joining us right now is CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig for much more on this.

Let's start with this piece and then I want to ask you more about what could be released with all these calls of having more of the investigation released. You are skeptical that Maxwell would agree to testify before Congress.

Why?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Yeah, I am extremely skeptical, Kate, despite whatever Professor Dershowitz says.

So first of all, if Ghislaine Maxwell was willing to come clean and testify truthfully, why would she not have done that at any point in the last four-plus years while her prosecution was ongoing? Because had she tried to testify and cooperate at any point during that time she would have been in a position, potentially, to help herself.

Instead, she refused to talk. She went to trial. She got convicted. She got sentenced to 20 years. And she has made no indication of willingness to talk.

Also, keep in mind part of the initial indictment against Ghislaine Maxwell points out that she lied under oath. She was deposed under oath in a civil case, and she outright denied knowing anything about Jeffrey Epstein trafficking minors or her own involvement in trafficking minors.

So she is not exactly a bastion of credibility, and I am not going to hold my breath for the day where she takes an oath and testifies truthfully in front of Congress.

BOLDUAN: I want to read for everyone the full quote from the source close to Ghislane Maxwell -- kind of seems like batting this down. Here is the quote.

"While Dershowitz is brilliant, he does not represent Ms. Maxwell and has had no contact with her. There has been no discussion about her testifying before Congress. Her only counsel of record right now is fighting her case before the Supreme Court."

On this, what is use immunity? How much protection would it -- would it give her if she -- if this whole thing would come together, considering that she's clearly fighting the conviction?

HONIG: Right. So Professor Dershowitz is sort of thinking ahead to the legal chess game that might hypothetically break out if there was some effort by Congress.

The way this would work is Congress would subpoena Ghislaine Maxwell. And again, I'm skeptical any of this going to happen.

BOLDUAN: Right.

HONIG: But Congress would subpoena Ghislaine Maxwell. She then, if she had any kind of decent lawyer, would take the fifth because even though she's been convicted of sex trafficking of children there potentially would be other charges that could be brought against her. She could be charged in the state. She would absolutely have a right to invoke the fifth. The countermove to that is what Professor Dershowitz is talking about where Congress has the ability to immunize somebody, meaning OK, we're going to force you to testify but your testimony is not going to be used against you in any future criminal proceedings.

So in theory that could compel her to testify but again, I think her response would be too bad. Like, I'm already doing 20 years. Why would I care about a citation for a contempt of Congress. And again, why would anyone think Ghislaine Maxwell is suddenly going to come clean and tell the truth now?

BOLDUAN: Very important perspective.

[07:45:00]

With this request though now from the Justice Department to now release the grand jury testimony in the Epstein investigation -- I mean, how long do you think it will be before this is decided? And once it is decided how long before things would be released if that is what is decided?

HONIG: Yeah. So the case in now in the hands of Judge Richard Berman, a federal judge in the Southern District of New York. I appeared in front of him many times. He's a good judge. He's down the middle. He works hard to get it right and I don't think he will let this drag out too, too long.

A couple of important things to understand.

One, even if this request is granted -- even if the judge says go ahead and unseal grand jury testimony, that is going to be a sliver of the overall file. It could be important, but it will be a narrow sliver of the overall file.

The other thing is if you actually look at the grand jury secrecy rules there are some exceptions on the books where you can unseal and make public or give to somebody else part of the record. But none of those apply here. Those all basically say if some party in another lawsuit needs them, if there's a defendant who has been charged elsewhere who needs these documents to make a motion to dismiss.

And if you look at DOJ's motion that went in on Friday, they acknowledge that. They say basically, Judge, we understand none of these exceptions really apply but we're kind of asking you for an all- purpose exception because there's such massive public interest here.

So I genuinely don't know what Judge Berman is going to do. Neither outcome would surprise me. But the reality is we're going to see little of the file if he does agree to release it and none if he does not.

BOLDUAN: I love that filing. We know none of this applies to us or do we fit the bill for any of this, but if ask -- if we ask nicely could you, please? Let's see.

Thanks, Eli. HONIG: Yeah. Sometimes you -- sometimes you have to admit what you don't know, Kate, for sure.

BOLDUAN: It's better to just do it at the front end of it.

Thanks, buddy -- Omar.

JIMENEZ: All right. We've heard warnings that AI could be the corporate job-killer with the potential to wipe out millions of jobs. But the reality, as you might imagine, a little bit more complicated. We'll talk about it coming up.

And this time it comes with a warning. Coldplay's Chris Martin letting the audience know they will be on camera days after the kiss cam catastrophe that was seen around the world. I know you've seen it. Just you're going to be on camera if you go to a show, people.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:51:13]

BOLDUAN: Breaking overnight, rescue teams recovered the body of a 6- year-old boy this morning. This is now two days after a tourist boat capsized near Vietnam. The death toll now stands at 36. At least three people are still missing. Search efforts very much underway still. Officials say 10 people did survive, including a 10-year-old boy with quite a story to tell. That boat had more than 50 people on board, most of them families on vacation.

CNN's Mike Valerio is live in South Korea tracking all of the developments as this is very much still developing. Mike, what else -- what else are you learning?

MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Kate, you know, what I found most striking from our reporting throughout the region all day today is that this boat, Kate, was packed with kids. We're talking about no fewer than 20 children on this sightseeing boat in Ha Long Bay, Vietnam.

And chances are you've probably seen this incredibly stunning place we're talking about here. Towering rock islands that pop up on our social media feeds or movies throughout the years. But Kate, of course, the essential question is how did this happen when this is such a popular tourist site? Boats that have been crisscrossing through this bay for years and stormy weather in the summer a fact of life for all of us throughout the corner of the world in Asia.

So to take you through what we know -- how this all happened -- we're going back to 1:30 in the afternoon on Saturday. Survivors, Kate, described about 15 minutes of rain -- a squall coming in. And then a direct quote here from a survivor. He says that "the boat started to shake vigorously" and then out of nowhere the capsize -- the capsizing of the boat happened.

So we have extraordinary stories of survival. One man who was part of a group of 11 college friends -- only three of

them made it, including him. And he is able to swim underneath the boat -- we're talking about through an underwater window -- and has the presence of mind to take off his life jacket so he can swim through that window.

The boy you mentioned at the top of the segment also survives after finding an air pocket and waiting for members of the military to save him -- waiting for hours.

So we've been asking if there were any international passengers, especially for our audience here in the United States. It seems as though all people were from Vietnam. In terms of where we go from here, three people still missing and we have a typhoon -- Typhoon Wipha -- think tropical storm -- 50 mile an hour winds that could hamper search efforts in the hours to come, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Um, absolutely.

Mike, thank you very much for that update on this. I really appreciate it -- Omar.

JIMENEZ: OK. On our radar this morning a car rammed into a post office in San Jose, California and investigators say the suspect under arrest is reportedly Richard Tillman, the brother of late NFL player-turned- Army Ranger Pat Tillman. San Francisco affiliate KNTV says the suspect livestreamed the crash on social media.

If you remember, Pat Tillman, former Arizona Cardinals player, enlisted with the U.S. Army after 9/11 and was mistakenly killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan in 2004.

Meanwhile over at the box office, "Superman" still going strong. For the second-straight weekend the Warner Bros. film flew past the competition raking in more than $57 million to top the top -- to top the box office. Universal Pictures' "Jurassic World Rebirth" came in second. So far, "Superman" has grossed $235 million domestically. And we should note Warner Bros. Discovery is the parent company of CNN.

And then Coldplay's kiss cam now comes with a warning. Over the weekend lead singer Chris Martin gave the audience plenty of notice they might appear on camera during The Jumbotron Song." Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS MARTIN, LEAD SINGER, COLDPLAY: We'd like to say hello to some of you in the crowd.

[07:55:00]

CROWD: (Cheering).

MARTIN: How we're going to do that is we're going to use our cameras and put some of you on the big screen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, I know you've seen it but during the song last week the concert camera caught a man and woman on the big screen trying to hide their faces. It sent the internet into a meltdown. The man, a CEO at a tech company, now resigning from his job. His company released a statement saying in part, "Our leaders are expected to set the standard in both conduct and accountability, and recently that standard was not met."

So no matter your circumstances, if you're going to go to a show you're going to be on camera. I'm cool with it -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yep, generally speaking. Take it from two anchors.

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: You're always on camera and the mic is always hot.

JIMENEZ: You can't run from the camera.

BOLDUAN: That's always the best way to operate your entire life.

Omar, thank you so much.

There's also this today. The murder trial resumes for the Colorado dentist accused of poisoning his wife's protein shakes. James Craig pleaded not guilty to charges including first-degree murder. And key testimony still lies ahead focusing in on the wife, Angela's, final weeks leading up to her death.

CNN's Jean Casarez has the very latest on this. And Jean, I mean, he first week was -- there's a lot revealed and shocking enough. What are you expecting for this second week of testimony?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN REPORTER: Well, you know, they have really been focusing in on the murder charge --

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

CASAREZ: -- because that is the poisoning -- the alleged poisoning.

But there are other charges. There are charges in regard to inmates that he was with that were about to get out that he --

BOLDUAN: Oh, yes.

CASAREZ: -- allegedly said to them, I'm going to give you some notes. They're in Angela's type of handwriting. I want you to plant them around the truck, plant them around our house to show she wanted to commit suicide to one inmate that was about to leave. He said, look, I want you to talk to your girlfriend on the outside and will she say that she was a really close friend of Angela and that Angela talked to her about committing suicide?

Now, none of these inmates that now conceivably are on the outside would do that, but they most likely will be witnesses because they've got to show --

BOLDUAN: Wow.

CASAREZ: -- and to prove these charges.

But what was fascinating that they did late on Friday was a text exchange -- many of them -- between Angela and James Craig when she started not to feel better. And we want to show somebody -- everybody some of this because what the prosecution is going to do is to match these texts with what James Craig, they say, was actually doing.

So Angela says: "You don't have to miss work today. I'm starting to feel a little better."

So this is the eighth, all right? The seventh and the eighth.

BOLDUAN: The seventh and eighth, um-hum.

CASAREZ: Seventh and eighth. And there is the one from the eighth.

Here's what he was doing during that time -- and he's very -- he responds saying, "I'm so sorry. What can I do? What can I do to help you?"

That's when he was ordering the potassium cyanide and he's really, really aggressive with the company. He wants to pick it up right now. He wants it maybe overnighted, but he's got to have it.

That night of the seventh he goes to the pharmacy and buys 12 bottles of Visine, which has tetrahydrozoline in it, which -- I think I'm pronouncing that wrong again. But that was found in her system at autopsy.

Now, on the ninth -- which also had some of those texts from her to him and him responding with so much empathy -- she's found on the floor on her knees. Videotape from the kitchen camera happens to be rolling at the time. But she was admitted to the hospital.

He is then being asked by the company that he's ordering potassium cyanide from what is this for? We have to have reason. We have to a more in-depth reason. He says he's a surgeon and as a surgeon he's going to perform a cranial facial reconstruction, and if it's successful it's going to be published in the National Institutes of Health. That allowed him to get that potassium cyanide.

And so it goes on from there. He bought more packages of Visine. But the distinction here from what he is saying to her from what he is actually doing --

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

CASAREZ: -- that's important evidence for prosecutors right there.

BOLDUAN: Winding and putting those timelines --

CASAREZ: Yes. BOLDUAN: -- together is just really starting to lay out that case, as you can see. I mean, this is -- let's see what week two begins -- brings us.

Thank you so much, Jean.

CASAREZ: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: I really appreciate it -- Omar.

JIMENEZ: Also new this morning could AI take your job? Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei made headlines after he warned artificial intelligence could spike unemployment and slash half of entry-level white-collar jobs. Meanwhile, major companies like Amazon and JPMorgan have warned their workforces will shrink because of AI. But now experts are warning that the idea of a white-collar wipeout isn't so clearcut.

Let's bring in CNN's Clare Duffy who has new reporting on this and joins me now. So Clare, I mean, what are you hearing from industry executives on this?

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yeah, Omar. After that warning from Dario Amodei, I got really curious just how realistic other insiders in the tech space think that AI jobs apocalypse really is.

[08:00:00]