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Kendall Scudder is Interviewed about Redrawing Districts; Toure is Interviewed about Malcolm-Jamal Warner's Death; Paul de Gelder is Interviewed about Shark Attacks. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired July 22, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Gain Republicans anywhere from five to eight seats in that state alone.

With us now is the chair of the Democratic Party of Texas, Kendall Scudder.

Thanks so much for being with us.

What's at stake here?

KENDALL SCUDDER, CHAIR, DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF TEXAS: There's a lot at stake. Right now what's happening is the Trump administration knows that voters are ready to hold them accountable for their mismanagement over the last six months and what I'm sure will be mismanagement over the next 18. And in order to obfuscate that accountability, they're going to start trying to redistrict states all across the country. They're just starting in Texas. And the path that they're trying to go is putting a spear through the heart of minority representation. Their intention is to try to have a United States Congress that's whiter than pre-reconstruction. And so, they wanted to run through the court system in Texas, make it up to Trump's Supreme Court, and then start to hack away all across the state. I hope that Democrats across the country will stand up and send a strong message that we're not here to take it.

BERMAN: Yes, well, this is based on a DOJ request of the constitutionality of a few Texas districts. And in the language, the DOJ memo says, you know, they are urging Texas to "rectify these race based considerations from specific districts." So, that's what the DOJ says here.

SCUDDER: Well, if you heard them in court just one month ago out of a federal court in El Paso, they were arguing that there was absolutely no constitutionality issue with this whatsoever. That's our own attorney general here in Texas. And so, it's bogus. If you look at the four districts that they mentioned, there's a vacant seat, a black protection seat, a Hispanic protection seat, and a coalition seat. They're just throwing what they can against the wall to see what sticks. They're trying to see if they can violate the Voting Rights Act and see if the court will have no repercussions of that.

BERMAN: So, one question for Texas Democrats now, particularly in the Texas house, and senate, I guess, for that matter, is what can you do about it?

SCUDDER: Well, it's a challenge because we don't have the levers of government to be able to stop it. A lot of what we're going to have to do is procedural. A lot of it will have to be legal and done within the courts. And maybe we'll have some where -- where Republicans will realize that this may not be as advantageous to them as they think. It's not like when these districts were originally drawn and put into place four years ago Texas was some liberal mecca where they were putting a bunch of Democratic seats everywhere, OK. These were already very conservative, disproportionately conservative maps. And now Republicans are going to try to squeeze blood out of a turnip. You could end up with Republican districts that are a lot more purple than what those sitting members would want. And in a year like 2026, that could put the Republicans in jeopardy.

So, in addition to trying to do the procedural and the legal fights to it, we're also kind of hoping that Republicans will realize that this really may not be in their best interest. And is that a gamble that they're willing to take right now?

BERMAN: Without getting into the legal differences state to state, because I think people have looked at this, there's a much clearer path for Republicans to pull this off in Texas than it would be for other parties to do it in other states. But be that as it may, if Texas Republicans do succeed here in redistricting sort of mid-decade, which is rare, what would you like to see from Democratic states with large Democratic majorities, say, California, say, New York?

SCUDDER: I want Democrats across the country to demonstrate that they've learned how to fight, and for them to stop trying to play by the rules of civility that they have in the past and stand up and fight back like democracy is at stake. That's what they've been campaigning on for years. It's time to act like it.

So, if Republicans decide that they're going to carve up Texas, then I think Democrats need to start carving up their own states. It's time for us to worry about nonpartisan redistricting committees whenever everyone is worried about nonpartisan redistricting committees. Right now, all that's happened is Democrats have put themselves at a disadvantage because they're trying to deliver good government, while Republicans are trying to rig the game in their own favor.

BERMAN: Kendall Scudder, from Texas, the Democratic Party there, we appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, Breonna Taylor's mother is reacting now and saying that the government turned its back on her daughter. Why the Justice Department pushed for a one-day sentence for the officer convicted in her daughter's case, and her reaction today.

And remembering the life of beloved actor Malcolm-Jamal Warner, his lasting impact on TV culture and beyond.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:38:57]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALCOLM-JAMAL WARNER, ACTOR: Is this my shirt? Is this the shirt I paid $30 for? Is this the shirt they're supposed to think is a Bordon Garshmel (ph)?

LISA BONET, ACTRESS: You don't like it?

WARNER: Ask me the question again?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: This morning, fans, co-stars, and loved ones are remembering Malcolm-Jamal Warner. He was just 54 years old when he passed away. The actor, best known for bringing Theo Huxtable to life on "The Cosby Show," died Sunday in a drowning accident while vacationing in Costa Rica. Now, his legacy reached far beyond his breakout in 1984, and he leaves a lasting impact on television and culture.

Joining me right now is Toure, writer, author and host of the "Truth Talks" podcast.

It's good to see you. I'm sorry it's under these circumstances to be talking about this. I mean, 54 years old, is just -- it is such a tragedy. I mean, you -- you -- how -- what are you -- what are you focusing on this morning as we -- as we look to his legacy and his impact and just the joy that he brought to so many?

[09:40:01]

TOURE, HOST, "TRUTH TALKS" PODCAST: We're almost the same age. He was born just a few months before me. So, as he was going through the steps of Theo Huxtable's maturation, I felt a deep kinship to him because I was going through a lot of the same stages in my life. So, I felt like, you know, this is a distant cousin or a brother from another mother. And I felt just very close and connected to him. And so many people did. And yet he remained so gracious and so humble.

When I interviewed him, there was not airs or ego. And even this, we talked about how he got into the business as a child actor. And he talked about having it factor, that the adults around him noticed he shines on the stage because he enjoys being on the stage and there's just a light coming out of him.

But he talked about, I had this it factor at a young age without ego, without sort of like bigging himself up, but like this is one of the tools that he just was gifted with, that he had this thing. And people don't usually talk about it, about themselves, and it sounds egotistical when they do, and it was totally not that with him. And he spent a long time talking about, you know, his -- his child and how much he, you know, he loved being a parent and talked a lot about the base. He was a -- there was very much into playing the bass. He had a very full life. And "The Cosby Show" was a huge impact on him. But he was like, Theo is not the only thing I am and is not the entirety of what I will be in this business.

BOLDUAN: And we were just showing some video from your conversation. You had a long conversation with him on your podcast. And I always find it fascinating when someone who is such a celebrity can maintain such humility and just like regular -- its not even a word, but like regularness, like just down to earth humanity, because it seems that it would be -- it's so much easier for so many people in the spotlight to just lean in to that. It really speaks to the person that he is. And I find it really fascinating how the conversation that you had was about not wanting to only be known as Theo Huxtable.

TOURE: Yes. I mean he was like my career zenith will not come when I am 15, 16, 17 years old. That my career is going to keep ascending. He didn't want to sign autographs as Theo or respond to that when people spoke to him on the street, but he carried a lot of positive things from his "Cosby Show" experience.

One thing we talked a lot about was that he understood the importance of quality images of African Americans coming out of his work. That's what he felt "The Cosby Show" was all about. So, when he goes to do "Malcolm and Eddie" with Eddie Griffin, who's an amazing comedian, but who did not share that philosophy, there was a lot of clash. And Malcolm really held strong to this notion of like, we should be putting out quality images of black people. And even as Eddie is like, no, I just want to be funny. Let's just be funny. And he said, we hated each other because Malcolm kept on with his principle of like, we should be some -- doing something for the community with this work.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And just the fact that he understood the cultural significance of who he was at such a young age and what he represented, but still maintained just being a -- just a good guy all throughout is just what -- adds to what a tragedy this is in losing him so soon.

Toure, it's good to see you. Thank you for coming on.

John.

BERMAN: All right, just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, it is Shark Week in America. One diver lost two limbs in an attack and is speaking out now in a new show. This video reenactment is part of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a full-on vertical attack. I didn't even see where it was coming from.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:48:25]

BOLDUAN: It is Shark Week, friends. That magical time of year everyone waits for. Necessary disclosure, Shark Week is on Discovery, owned by the same parent company as CNN.

Now that we've got that out of the way, this is what we're here to talk about. Paul de Gelder, he's a former elite Navy diver, real life shark attack survivor. He was attacked in 2009, lost part of his leg and arm. And since then he has been using his life experiences and voice to educate others. His new special, "How to Survive a Shark Attack," airs tonight on Discovery's Shark Week.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Off the coast of Grand Bahama, Paul de Gelder and his team are demonstrating how to survive a shark attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a 16-foot Tiger just took the bait.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is Paul OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosthetic limb releases synthetic blood, which could trigger a feeding frenzy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Divers, this is not a test.

You need to form a wall around him now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's trying to (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alonzo, get him out of there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't worry, we're (INAUDIBLE) rapid accent. (INAUDIBLE) hold on to my arm. I got you, buddy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:50:03]

BOLDUAN: Yes.

And Paul de Gelder is our guest and here with us right now.

I mean, dude, I know it's in, like, the name of educating others, but that is intense, all the clips that I've seen.

PAUL DE GELDER, DIVER, SHARK ATTACK SURVIVOR AND SHARK CONSERVATION ACTIVIST: Of course. It's Shark Week. That's what it's all about. We've got science. We've got adventure. We've got entertainment. It's --

BOLDUAN: So, explain the setup.

DE GELDER: Yes.

BOLDUAN: The goal is clear, you're trying to teach people how to, if they find themselves in the situation, to survive a shark attack themselves, in various scenarios. But explain it, how you guys set it up.

DE GELDER: Well, look, I didn't do that well in school. I couldn't concentrate on the -- the teacher and the writing and the blackboard and all of the things, but I did really well in the military because they teach you by doing. And so I wanted to show people by actually doing. You know, people will remember the picture, they'll remember the scenarios, they'll remember the sequence of events. And so, I wanted to really show them what you need to do to survive if the worst thing imaginable happens when you're in the ocean, or it happens to someone that you're with and you can save their life. Step by step, the methodologies, the exact things you need to implement to stay alive in that scenario.

BERMAN: I don't want to give away the whole show. People should watch it and watch what you do here. But -- but if there is one thing that people need to think about before they get into the water, what is that one thing?

DE GELDER: Oh, really, it's hard to say just one thing. There's a whole bunch of things that we, as -- as we like to think of ourselves, the most intelligent beings on the planet, should implement. Never go into the ocean by yourself. Always have a tourniquet if you're out spearfishing or surfing, that way you can stop the traumatic blood loss because that is what happens to kill most people that get bitten by sharks, the loss of blood. If you can stop the blood loss, you can usually survive.

And so, you know what, maybe carrying a tourniquet would be that number one thing.

BOLDUAN: Yes, it makes sense. I mean, sadly, it makes complete and total sense to have to plan for that, though.

I think a lot of people will wonder, because you are a shark conservationist yourself. You are advocating for the protection of these beautiful, giant animals. But I think a lot of people would say, if there is one person on the planet that they would understand if you were not such a fan of sharks would be you.

BERMAN: Yes, no one would -- no one would blame you.

BOLDUAN: Like, it would be understandable. How did -- how did you go from, well, one, you should tell everyone -- remind everyone of your experience, and how then from there you then wanted to save and protect sharks.

DE GELDER: Yes. When I woke up in hospital, the first thing I did say was, f-ing shark. Tapped out on my little board because I had tubes down my throat there.

BOLDUAN: Oh, my God.

DE GELDER: Everyone laughed. I was trying to, you know, create some --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

DE GELDER: Yes, whatever. I -- I hated sharks. I hated them. My two biggest fears in life were sharks and public speaking, which is very strange because now I'm a shark diving public speaker.

But there's an old adage, knowledge dispels fear. And because the media wanted me to talk about my shark attack and they wanted me to talk about attacks that happened after mine, I didn't want to give just an opinion. I wanted to give an educated opinion.

So, at the risk of looking like a big dummy on television, I thought, I'd better learn about these animals. And it was true that knowledge did dispel the fear. And I started to realize that we have a lot -- they have a lot more to fear from us than we have to fear from them. And so, we all love the underdog. Sharks are the ultimate underdog.

BERMAN: In that moment, when you were being attacked by the shark, do you -- did you feel like the underdog? I mean, was the shark the underdog in that?

DE GELDER: Yes, no, not at all. Not at all.

But, look, I -- I chose an inherently dangerous life. I was Army airborne. I was a Navy clearance diver. It could have been a parachuting accident, a bomb, a gun, explosives, whatever. At least this way I got a cool story, and I got -- I get a lot of free beer, and, you know, it pushed me in a new direction.

BERMAN: Almost worth it. Almost worth it.

BOLDUAN: I want to party with you. Even before you said that, I was like, I want to party with you.

BERMAN: You had me at free beer.

But in the moment, and I don't know how much you remember of exactly what took --

DE GELDER: All of it.

BERMAN: I mean, how much warning did you have?

DE GELDER: None.

BERMAN: So -- so these tips that you're giving now, and I think this is instructive as part of the show, you know, have to be able to be implemented with zero warning, zero time, and at a moment that I have to imagine, even for someone like you, is extraordinary panic.

DE GELDER: But even prior preparation is important. As we say, prior preparation prevents piss poor performance. The five p's, six p's. And so, you can do things like, don't wear jewelry You know, that -- that glimmering of jewelry is acting like a fish lure.

BOLDUAN: The shine, right?

DE GELDER: And the sharks can see that. You can go and swim or spear fish or surf at patrolled beaches. That way, if something happens, you've got a lifeguard on duty that can come out and prevent that traumatic blood loss.

We have the wealth of the world's knowledge in a few keystrokes. We've got Google. We've got internet. We can look up if there's sharks in the area, if there's been a shark attack in the past. The -- the excuse of ignorance is no excuse anymore.

BOLDUAN: I was -- I don't even know if this is something that's out there, but just -- I'm always thinking of the concern over chumming the waters and what we're teaching the sharks and the human interactions with sharks.

[09:55:03]

Is there any concern of reinforcing further danger to humans by -- by baiting the sharks in the way that you did in this lesson?

DE GELDER: Great question. This specific area that we work in, Tiger Beach, in the Bahamas, that is a designated spot for these activities. And so, these sharks, a lot of them are residents. They live in the area. They've been going there for 30 years. They know the rules.

BERMAN: It's a tax (ph) thing mostly.

DE GELDER: Yes. Yes.

BOLDUAN: It's (INAUDIBLE).

DE GELDER: And, honestly, this is no different to the million registered fishing vessels off the coast of Florida that go out. At least we're putting in dead fish. They're catching live bait. And what do you think sharks are more attracted to? And that's why the sharks are swarming the fishing boats these days, because they know they can get an easy feed from the fishermen pulling in that live bait.

So, what we do is minuscule, like, you know, five boats to -- you go out off the coast of Florida and there's probably 100,000 of them.

BOLDUAN: Yes, the international fishing industry, obviously, it pales in comparison.

It is great to meet you.

BERMAN: Yes.

DE GELDER: It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

BOLDUAN: Thanks for coming in. We really appreciate it. So cool. BERMAN: Turns out you're great at the public speaking thing. So, thank

you for that.

DE GELDER: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Exactly. You can quit your day job, if that's what they say. This is now your day job.

Are you doing it?

BERMAN: Yes, OK, Paul de Gelder. You can watch "How to Survive a Shark Attack" tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on Discovery.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much for joining us, everyone. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "THE SITUATION ROOM," up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)