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Dr. Raymond Lynch is Interviewed about the Organ Donation System; Ghislaine Maxwell to Meet with DOJ; Keeping People Safe from Future Floods. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired July 24, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:03]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, the Department of Health and Human Services is raising alarm and demanding urgent changes to the country's critical organ donation system after a federal investigation found many incidents in Kentucky of technicians beginning the process of removing someone's organs when those -- when some of those people still were showing signs of life. The report so disturbing that it became the focus of a congressional hearing just this week. Top HHS officials raising the alarm to lawmakers.

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REP. YVETTE CLARKE (D-NY): At numerous points throughout the process, both hospital staff and the staff from the Organ Procurement Organization noted potential signs of consciousness and discomfort from the patient.

The surgeon ultimately refused to operate, stating they felt the operation would be inhumane and unethical.

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BOLDUAN: So, this federal investigation was launched after the case of 33-year-old T.J. Hoover came to light. Hospitalized in 2021 after a drug overdose, he then woke up in the operating room to find people shaving his chest, preparing his body for surgery, and talking about the plans to remove his organs for donation.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta met T.J. Hoover and spoke to his sister about this.

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DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: From what I understand he was mouthing the word "no" and pushing hands away and things like that.

DONNA RHORER, T.J. HOOVER'S SISTER: Yes, he was very aware. The pronouncing physician comes in. And when she comes in, she walks back out and she says, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this case. I don't feel comfortable. The organ coordinator that was there, she steps out to call the

supervisor at the time to tell him that the pronouncing physician was refusing to do the case. She said that he was yelling at her, telling her she needed to find another physician to come. And she's like, there is no one. There's no one else to come do this case.

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BOLDUAN: Joining us right now is one of the HHS officials who testified on this, the chief of the branch within HHS responsible for the organ donation system in our country, Dr. Raymond Lynch.

Dr. Lynch, thank you very much. This is important, troubling and also fascinating what you've uncovered.

When you started investigating these reports, were you shocked by what you found?

DR. RAYMOND LYNCH, ORGAN TRANSPLANT CHIEF, HEALTH RESOURCE AND SERVICES ADMINISTRATION: I think it's -- it's important to understand that the awareness of these reports is in itself a good thing. It means that our oversight is working. And this is something that, since Congress gave HHS new ability to look into this in a bipartisan bill in 2023, we've been able to provide the kind of reviews of these events to make sure that they don't happen again.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And some of what was released just this week, I'll read it for our viewers, is, of the 351 cases in the investigation, more than 100 had, quote/unquote, "concerning features, including 73 patients with neurological signs incompatible with organ donation and at least 28 cases involved patients who may not have been deceased at the time the organ procurement process began."

Which anyone sitting out there at home will just wonder the basic question of, how is this possible?

LYNCH: So, in any complex medical care in a hospital, it involves multiple teams that have to interact and collaborate well. Organ procurement is very similar to that with the only change that the one of the groups, the Organ Procurement Organization, comes from outside the hospital. And that is the federally designated provider for this care. So, making sure that they interact well with the hospital teams and provide a good assessment and manage this care appropriately is critical to a safe, reliable system.

BOLDUAN: And the group that was really focused on is this organization in Kentucky and -- and HHS had highlighted that -- and this is, you know, for -- I learned a lot in this that I did not know about the organ donation system in our country, is that this organization in Kentucky that has been cited and said needing to put in new safeguards is one of 55 in the United States.

[09:35:16]

And you've -- and I've seen that you've seen -- received reports of similar patterns of high risk procurement practices at other organizations. So, what else is being uncovered? Where else are you all investigating? And what is the fix?

LYNCH: So, as you note, there are other areas, other geographic areas that we've been conducting reviews as well. I can't speak to any reviews that are ongoing right now.

But the fix has already been released. And that is that HRSA, the agency within HHS, had a first of its kind corrective action plan. And that really encompasses better education for the families, for the -- the hospital teams, making sure that those teams and the families are able to call for a halt if they see concerning features, and making sure that that group, the OPO, is doing a good job, you know, understanding what is actually happening in the patient's brain. Are they injured? Are they dying? Are they recovering?

People who see this report -- and the fixes are, as you said, been released. But people will just hear what you've uncovered in your investigation and they will think there's just -- maybe they no longer should trust the system of organ donation or they may question wanting to be an organ donor because of this. What do you say to them?

LYNCH: I would tell them that trust is earned. It's not owed. And this is something that HHS has a strong commitment to making sure that this is safe. Organ donation and procurement is a good thing. It offers hope to the families of patients who need organs who are dying. It offers solace to the families that have seen their loved ones give that gift of life. So, it is a good thing, and we are committed to making sure that it is a safe thing for the individual and their families.

BOLDUAN: Yes, well, thank goodness for you and your team, Doctor. I really appreciate your time. We'll continue to follow this as these reforms and safeguards are put into place.

Dr. Raymond Lynch, really appreciate your time.

John.

BERMAN: All right. We are standing by for the deputy attorney general to meet with Jeffrey Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell. She was convicted of conspiring with Epstein to sexually abuse minors.

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[09:40:50]

BERMAN: All right, happening now, we are standing by for the deputy attorney general of the United States, Todd Blanche, to meet with Jeffrey Epstein accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, at the U.S. attorney's office in Tallahassee, Florida. Again, she was convicted of conspiring to sexually abuse minors along with Epstein. Again, this meeting could happen at any time. In fact, it could have started.

So, let's get to Evan Perez right now for the very latest on what you are learning is happening.

Evan. EVAN PEREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, John, we know that David Marcus, her attorney, entered the building there a short while ago. And we know that she was brought from the federal prison, the women's prison, in Tallahassee, to the U.S. attorney's office, where Todd Blanche is going to meet with her. The question remains, you know, what is Todd Blanche bringing? What can he offer her? Because she really has very little incentive to talk to the federal prosecutors. She still maintains her innocence, despite her conviction ant the 20-year sentence. She continues to appeal that sentence. And we know this, she wants to get out of prison. David Marcus is a very good attorney. One of the best there in Florida. And so, we can -- you can bet that he's not going to let her talk to Todd Blanche or really deliver very much until he knows what she can get in return.

Now, a couple things to keep in mind. The -- the fact that Donald Trump's name has appeared in these files, which is something that Blanche and -- and Pam Bondi briefed the president on, is not a surprise, right? But the question that I think everybody wants to know is, what else does she have that could possibly lead to additional charges or additional people to be prosecuted?

Bears in mind that just a couple of weeks ago, when this this really blew up on the administration, the -- the Justice Department put out a unsigned statement where one of the things they -- they -- they insisted on was that in reviewing these files that they have, millions of documents that they've already reviewed, they found no evidence to indicate that there could be any charges brought against anyone else in this -- in this investigation. And so, does that remain the case after Blanche is able to talk to Ghislaine Maxwell? We do not know at this hour, but certainly that's what we're waiting for.

BERMAN: Let's put some context into the players here in Tallahassee who may very well be in this building. Todd Blanche, deputy attorney general of the United States, also served as a defense attorney for then, you know, former President Donald Trump in his criminal trial, knows David Marcus, the attorney for Ghislaine Maxwell.

PEREZ: Right.

BERMAN: And President Trump himself, we've seen now photos of him along with Ghislaine Maxwell. And if I remember correctly, after she was -- was convicted and sentenced, you know, his comment on it was basically, I wish her well.

PEREZ: I wish her well.

BERMAN: So, what are the intersections? Yes, what are the intersections here?

PEREZ: Well, look, I mean, look, it's a small community of lawyers down there who do this kind of law. And so, it's not surprising that David Marcus and Todd Blanche are friendly and known -- known each other for years. That's not entirely a surprise. And, you know, frankly, it might help things go better today, right, the fact that these men know each other. They -- they know exactly what each other is after, could make this discussion a lot, a lot simpler certainly. But the bottom line here is that, you know, Trump really wants this

scandal to go away. And they have kept trying different things to try to make it go away. Earlier this week they asked -- they petitioned the courts to release grand jury transcripts. That's a fraction. That's a tiny sliver of the information that exists in this investigation. At this moment, the attorney general, Pam Bondi, has the capability to release a lot of documents. They'll be redacted. They'll give -- there's going to be a lot of black ink on those pages, which is part of the reason why they haven't released it.

But -- but, John, you remember, the FBI spent weeks, you know, they were working nights and weekends redacting these files. They are already redacted. You know, one of the things that we know in the last 24 hours, this congressional subcommittee has -- has subpoenaed for those documents to be turned over.

[09:45:09]

I can tell you this, when she receives that subpoena, those documents are ready. They could be turned over very, very quickly if the Justice Department wants to do so.

BERMAN: That is very important to note. Evan Perez, keep us posted again as we learn what's taking place in these meetings.

Kate.

PEREZ: Yes.

BOLDUAN: All right, so a lot going on there. A lot going on here as well. They dance. They walk on stilts. They do backflips. Not just our studio crew in commercial breaks. We're talking about the Savannah Bananas. And they do all of that while playing baseball, kind of. And they're selling out stadiums. The Savannah Bananas are coming to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[09:50:17]

BOLDUAN: Oh, Jesus.

BERMAN: That -- that -- what you just saw there is a brand-new twist on America's favorite pastime. And you can see why it is taking the country by storm.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: The Savannah Bananas are selling out stadiums with their entertainment focused spin on baseball, including Busch Stadium, home of the Saint Louis Cardinals. Unlike traditional baseball, Banana ball has a two-hour limit. Fans can get in on the fun by catching foul balls for outs, and there are flips, like the ones you just saw, tricks, random dance breaks. They are super popular.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to Banana ball. For the next two hours, you are going to be entertained like never before. I'm talking a whole lot of singing, a whole lot of dancing, hijinks and stuff you have never seen before on a live broadcast.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. Oh, backflip catch. Unbelievable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The limits will be tested. You are not going to want to miss it. Welcome to Banana land and welcome to the rac (ph) takeover. Let's go. Woo!

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BERMAN: And when we come back, hopefully, we will hear from Coach Rac on all of his stunts.

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[09:55:55]

BERMAN: All right, our new friend, Coach Rac, just so you know, is doing well. And it only adds to the legend of the Savannah Bananas, whom you should absolutely check out at a stadium, if you can get a ticket, because tickets are hard to come by.

Now, meanwhile, a new CNN analysis shows that more communities across the United States could be at risk of serious flood disaster.

CNN chief national correspondent Bill Weir has the story.

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BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): On a hot day in the mountains of north Georgia, few places are more inviting than the Chattahoochee River. And tubing the hooch on days like this makes it easy to forget that the same waterway providing so much joy can take life and property in a flash. And when the Chattahoochee turned deadly 16 years back, it changed both Georgia and Laura Belanger, one of the top hydrologists in the south.

LAURA BELANGER, SENIOR SERVICE HYDROLOGIST, NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ATLANTA: So, I am in the position I'm in today because of the September 2009 floods. I was young in my career at the time, and there were ten fatalities in the state of Georgia that left a lasting impression on me and wanting to kind of see how we could do better with our hydro services and getting those warnings out. That's what helped be a catalyst for those flash flood warnings to be included in wireless emergency alerts.

WEIR: Today in the tourist town of Helen, Georgia, those wireless alerts, weather radios, are the only sources of flash flood warning, because in a place like this, sirens might confuse people to run for low ground from a tornado instead of high ground from a flash flood. It's been a long time since the water topped that ten-foot marker. It

hit 12 feet back in '67. And while there have been some swift water rescues in recent weeks, most people don't remember really high water.

That's the thing that struck me in Texas there is, it reminded me more of covering a tsunami in Japan where children were swept away while they debated what to do because no one could imagine the worst.

BELANGER: Yes.

WEIR: And when you're watching tubers here, you can't imagine that water turning deadly.

BELANGER: It's hard to get, especially with how shallow it is at the moment, it is hard to digest what a big amount of water coming through here would look like, and how it's inundated.

WEIR (voice over): And she is especially worried about Enchanted Valley, just over the hills. The folks living in these permanent trailers sit smack dab on the Hiawassee River, next to one of the flashiest river gauges in the nation.

BELANGER: And so those are the places that keep me up at night. Regardless of the amount of readiness or preparation, the fact that there are people and property that close to the river, that's what the concern is.

The biggest question we get is when we see 100-year flood plain, and maybe the water level has risen to this point and someone says, oh, thank goodness we don't have to deal with this for 99 more years. And it happens. The reality is, what that means is that there's a one in 100 chance of occurrence in a given year of that happening again.

WEIR: Right. But that math is changing, right?

BELANGER: But that math changes over time as you see flooding occur more frequently.

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BERMAN: And our thanks to Bill Weir for checking out that town and that story.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Thank you so much for being with us today. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "THE SITUATION ROOM" is up next.

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