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Soon: DOJ Interviews Ghislaine Maxwell For Second Day; Trump's FCC Approves $8 Billion Paramount-Skydance Deal; Israel, U.S. Withdraw Teams From Ceasefire Talks In Doha. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired July 25, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Maria, a second day of questioning of Ghislaine Maxwell. Six hours yesterday, behind closed doors today. The first question people are asking is, you know, what is she saying? I think maybe a more important question is what is Blanche asking?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: And I think a third question is why is this happening in the first place, John? He's the deputy attorney general of the United States.

And what this says to me is that it demonstrates a massive desperation on behalf of Republicans, on behalf of this administration for Donald Trump, probably pushed by Donald Trump, to try to get something in the ether that they can placate their MAGA base who is going wild about this.

But the question is what can Maxwell actually offer that would be in any way credible? And it actually makes people think are they cutting a deal? We know that she wants to reduce her sentence. We know she wants a pardon. So are they trying to get something from her that will vindicate Donald Trump? That will, you know, initially say he is nowhere to be found in the Epstein files. And, if so, who will believe that?

So I don't understand what the bottom line is here. There is no win- win here for the Republicans or Donald Trump, or the GOP, or to placate their MAGA base on this. And it gives Democrats additional fodder to say what are they covering up? Why are they putting billionaires over the interests of the victims here? So I don't get it.

BERMAN: So Maura, to what extent do you think that the Justice Department needs to explain the ground rules of this discussion?

MAURA GILLESPIE, FORMER PRESS ADVISER TO THEN-HOUSE SPEAKER JOHN BOEHNER, FOUNDER AND PRINCIPAL, BLUESTACK STRATEGIES: I think it's not abnormal, right? So the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed Ghislaine Maxwell. It's not abnormal for her to just go in and have a conversation with somebody who has been subpoenaed by Congress.

I do think, however, though this follow-up conversation is happening and the fact that there's been two in a row and what's being discussed -- and I do think that to Maria's point there are a lot of people in the MAGA space who wonder if this about some sort of pardon. Has she played her hand to keep her cards close to her chest because she's waiting now on some sort of deal that she may get. You know, 2 1/2 years -- holds out and is able to get a pardon into capacity.

I don't know if that's going to happen. I don't see how that would be in Trump's best interest legacy-wise, but if there is, it does lead to more questions than answers unfortunately.

But again, I think that this focus on -- so heavily on this issue and on this controversy is obviously of Donald Trump's own making. A lot of Republicans feel as though he handled this poorly from the get-go by not just releasing information and sharing things that he had promised to share creating this issue for him.

BERMAN: It is interesting seeing how senior Republicans in Congress are dealing with it. I want to play a little bit of an interview that House Speaker Mike Johnson did with CBS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We want full transparency. We want everybody who was involved in any way with the Epstein evils -- let's call it what it was -- to be brought to justice as quickly as possible. We want the full weight of the law on their heads.

MAJOR GARRETT, CBS NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: This is not a hoax, in other words.

JOHNSON: Oh, it's not a hoax. Of course, not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: "It's not a hoax. Of course, not." Now, he's saying that or he's even being asked that because, of course, President Trump called it that.

You spent a lot of time in the House at senior levels. You know what it's like when these members go back home.

What's happening back home?

GILLESPIE: Well, that's the biggest issue they're facing. They don't want to be talking about this going home. They are going back to the districts. They want to tout their wins. They want to go to these town halls that they're having with constituents and talk about the issues that they're fighting for on their behalf, but they have to address this.

And it's not helpful because obviously Trump has tried every tactic. His playbook, this time, has not worked. And so Republicans don't want to get caught up in whatever aspect of that he is on that day, right? Whether he's in denial, disparaging, shift -- blaming the shift -- shifting the blame, excuse me. And so Republicans who are going home to their districts -- they don't

want to deal with that or be caught up in that mess. So instead, they have to say listen, we want transparency and that's what I'm going to vote for. That's what I'm going to support in Congress but also, we want answers. However, let's focus on what's going on here at home because they really do need to think about long-term.

They don't need to stand by Donald Trump on every single thing. And you're starting to see that separation. Because again, Donald Trump is a lame duck president and members of Congress, especially House Republicans, have to think about their 2026 midterm elections.

BERMAN: Maria, there's a little bit of new reporting in both The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times today on this so-called birthday book. This is what The Wall Street Journal originally reported on that earned them a lawsuit at the hands of Donald Trump. A birthday book that they reported Donald Trump had written a note, signed his name. He denied that, suing The Wall Street Journal.

The new reporting -- and I'm going to read some of it to you -- from The Wall Street Journal. "The biggest name in Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book back in 2003 as a past president rather than a future one.

[07:35:00]

The leather-bound album -- assembled before Epstein was first arrested in 2006 -- included a page with a single paragraph in Bill Clinton's distinctive scrawl: 'It's reassuring, isn't it, to have lasted as long, across all the years of learning and knowing, adventures and [illegible word], and also to have your childlike curiosity, the drive to make a difference and the solace of friends.'"

Now I want to say a spokesman for Clinton declined to comment on this message, which was reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. He referred the Journal to a previous statement that the former president had cut off ties more than a decade before Epstein was arrested in 2019.

What does all this reporting on this book and these years in general -- how does that now affect the contours of this story?

CARDONA: Well, I think what it focuses on is I think overall the need for transparency. And this is where I think Democrats -- to steal a headline from Politico -- are running circles around Republicans on this whole Epstein issue. Regardless of who is reported being in the birthday book or on the list, or in the files, there needs to be transparency.

And for the House leader -- for, sorry, the speaker to say it's not a hoax and they want transparency, but then they cowardly let go of his caucus to flee Washington, D.C. because they don't want to take a vote on this just completely lacks credibility. They are still covering for Trump.

And to Maura's point, I think it's very dangerous for them to stand that ground going into a midterm election. Going into, frankly, a recess where there's going to be very mad voters -- mad MAGA base voters. They haven't scheduled any town halls. I wonder why?

And again, it's going to give Democrats the ability to talk about how Republicans, whether it's the big, ugly bill or whether it's this Epstein coverup, are putting the interests of billionaires over the interests of everyday working Americans and the victims of this horrific Epstein saga.

BERMAN: Maria Cardona, Maura Gillespie, thank you both very much.

Again, the next thing we will see is the president leaving the White House. We will see how he handles questions over all the new developments -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: After months of uncertainty and deep skepticism and scrutiny, the Federal Communications Commission has now given the green light to the $8.4 billion merger of Paramount and Skydance. It's usually a lengthy process for approval but this one was drawn out even more because of allegations of political interference amplified by President Trump's criticism of Paramount's CBS News division.

And in recent days Skydance took steps to reassure the FCC of its intentions. Among other things, Skydance said that they'll avoid DEI programs at the new company and install a new kind of watchdog at CBS News. A way to sweeten the deal, if you will, as FCC chairman Brendan Carr cracks down on perceived bias in the media.

CNN's chief media analyst Brian Stelter explains how we got here.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Hey, good morning.

Yes, this media mega merger should now take effect in the next few weeks, but the tug-of-war that transpired here is going to be remember for a whole lot longer.

Executives across corporate America were watching Paramount. They were studying this. They were taking notes wondering what Paramount would have to do or what it would feel it had to do in order to get this merger across the government's finish line.

The entire merger review process took a long time, and it was marked the whole time by allegations of political meddling stemming from President Trump's scathing criticism of CBS News.

You'll recall his lawsuit last fall against the newsmagazine "60 MINUTES" -- a lawsuit that legal experts derided as being frivolous and meritless. And yet, Paramount agreed to pay $16 million to make the lawsuit go away. That deal was announced on July 1, but it was only formalized in court this Tuesday, which makes the timing of the merger approval all the more eyebrow-raising.

Trump said on Truth Social on Tuesday that he also has a deal with the future owners of Paramount, Skydance Media, for about $20 million worth of PSAs -- Public Service Announcements -- that will air on CBS stations and networks.

For the record, Paramount says that the settlement was totally unrelated to the merger but there are other layers here that clearly were related. Skydance sent letters to the FCC earlier this week making several specific commitments about how it will run CBS in the future.

I spoke on Thursday with FCC chairman Brendan Carr, a Trump loyalist, and he told me there were three specific commitments that were most important to him.

Number one, that CBS is going to hire an ombudsman to review charges of bias at CBS in the future and take those directly to senior leadership. Number two, a promise to invest in local news. And number three, a pledge not to introduce any new DEI programs or policies.

[07:40:05]

Some Democratic senators are highly critical of this merger reviewal process and of the approval action that was taken on Thursday.

Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren said in a statement, "It's an open question whether the Trump administration's approval of this merger was the result of a bribe."

That's a very charged word and it's a reason why this is going to have a lingering impact on the media industry and all across corporate America.

Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Brian Stelter. Thank you so much, Brian.

Also new this morning during the campaign President Trump's two, you could say, central focuses and promises were an aggressive crackdown on illegal immigration and his ability to supercharge the U.S. economy.

There's a new analysis out shared exclusively with CNN warning that the president's mass deportation plans could actually backfire on his economic plans.

CNN's Matt Egan joins us now with much more on this. What are you learning from this report, Matt?

MATT EGAN, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Well Kate, as you mentioned, the president promised this economic boom, right, that would turbocharge growth and increase worker paychecks. But economists -- they're worried that one obstacle standing in the way of that goal is the president's own immigration program.

Now, this Penn Wharton analysis finds that if there were mass deportations where every year 10 percent of unauthorized immigrants were deported from the United States -- over four years, you would see smaller GDP. You would see a $350 billion increase to the federal deficit and smaller wages. All of those things moving in the wrong direction.

And the impact would be even bigger if this was extended over 10 years where essentially all unauthorized immigrants were deported from the United States. If that happened, you'd see an even bigger drop in GDP, almost a $1 trillion increase in federal deficits, and even smaller wages.

Now that's not to say that Penn Wharton found that all workers would be hurt. They did find that some authorized, low-skilled workers in the United States -- they could be helped because there'd be essentially less competition --

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

EGAN: -- and so that might mean their wages would go up.

But what's interesting is that higher-skilled workers in the United States, which is most of the workforce -- they found that their paychecks would actually go down by almost $3,000 a year, and that's because lower-skilled workers -- they actually complement higher- skilled workers.

You think about the typical person who works in an office. They might not realize it, but they are helped by the cleaning staff and the security. Sometimes by people who get them there in terms of transportation as well.

Take a listen to how Kent Smetters from Wharton School explained all this to me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENT SMETTERS, PROFESSOR OF BUSINESS ECONOMICS AND PUBLIC POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA WHARTON SCHOOL: There's no question that the U.S. economy will get smaller as you deport a lot of the workforce. If you are essentially the middle class -- the higher income -- you're going to be hurt by deportation and the reason is that you really do rely on a lot of lower-skilled workers to make your job easier. To make your life much more comfortable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

EGAN: Now, the White House pushed back on this analysis, saying that this kind of analysis misses the forest for the trees because it doesn't take into account the immense costs that everyday Americans face because of illegal immigration, including violent crime, rising housing costs, and also the burden on the health care system.

But Kate, I would just note that other economists that I've been talking to -- they share these concerns about immigration, in particular because of America's aging workforce. They worry that businesses -- they're just not going to be able to find enough workers, especially because of all these deportations.

BOLDUAN: Interesting. A really interesting analysis and something definitely to look at.

It's good to see you.

EGAN: Thanks, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much, Matt.

All right. So coming up still for us, the Gaza ceasefire talks have stalled as Israeli and U.S. negotiators say that once again Hamas is changing its demands. U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff putting it this way. "Hamas shows a lack of desire to reach a ceasefire in Gaza." This is just as the humanitarian crisis in Gaza -- just look at that image -- is becoming more dire.

And new testimony coming out from the Colorado dentist murder trial. What a woman who allegedly had an affair with James Craig, the man that is charged and accused -- what she said about his fascination with the horror movie "The Purge."

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:49:00]

BOLDUAN: So new this morning, the U.S. special envoy has decided to bring home the U.S. team trying to negotiate a hostage and ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. Steve Witkoff saying that Hamas' latest response to the ceasefire proposal -- calling it "...clearly shows a lack of desire to reach a ceasefire in Gaza." And also adding that the U.S. "will now consider alternative options to bring the hostages home and try to create a more stable environment for the people of Gaza."

This is just as UNICEF is now reporting that more than 100 people in Gaza have died from malnutrition since Israel's war against Hamas began -- 80 percent of them children.

And joining me right now is Democratic Congressman Eugene Vindman of Virginia. It's good to have you, Congressman. Thank you for coming.

When the -- when the -- when the U.S. special envoy here says -- and his quote is, "We're now going to consider alternative options to bring the hostages home and try to create a more stable environment in Gaza," what do you think he means? What alternatives haven't yet been tried?

[07:50:05]

REP. EUGENE VINDMAN (D-VA) (via Webex by Cisco): Look, it's very unclear what he's getting at. I mean, we've heard some really terrible ideas from the president about moving the population.

And the bottom line, this is hard. These are decadeslong intractable conflicts. They require hard work and smart people to resolve and there's no 24-hour solution to Ukraine or Israel. And frankly, pulling out of negotiations is not a solution to this problem.

BOLDUAN: I mean -- and as these -- I don't know if they're crumbled, if they're stalled, if they're just -- I don't know, on pause. Whatever is happening with the negotiations not moving forward. This is against the backdrop of this hunger crisis in Gaza that is just becoming more dire. It's not surprising that Hamas is an obstacle to these talks. It is a terrorist organization.

But in the face of all of this do you think that Israel and the United States need to do more to ensure aid is reaching those in need even if Hamas is the obstacle at the talks?

VINDMAN: The short answer is yes. And look, I consider myself a strong supporter of Israel. There are plenty of supporters of Israel in the House of Representatives. And Hamas is a terrorist organization. But the bottom line is that Israel seems to be isolating itself if the main goal here is to get the hostages back. I'm at a loss to understand how its current operations are actually going to further that goal.

And meanwhile you have, again, Israel isolating itself. France is looking at recognizing a Palestinian state, and I don't see how that serves Israel's long-term security goals or eliminating Hamas.

BOLDUAN: Yeah, and the French president pointing to how things have played out and where things have gotten to in Gaza as a reason for what the move, he wants to make to officially acknowledge a Palestinian state come September.

The question though becomes what more should the administration do? Are you comfortable -- I mean, you sit on Armed Services. You've served as well. What more do you want to see this administration do in terms of getting more involved? How involved in getting more aid in?

VINDMAN: Look, I'd like to see smart, competent, capable people with a background and track record in there. Mr. Witkoff has no background or track record. He's achieved very little success in either the Middle East or in Ukraine at this point and that's, frankly, the hallmark of this administration. We're not seeing a great deal of competence and experience.

And so first of all, I think it requires replacement of key leadership in the administration -- those folks responsible for making these things happen.

And the second thing is when I think of Israel, Israel has made the desert bloom. It's a highly advanced country. It took out Iranian air defense in a matter of days. I believe Israel can feed the population of Gaza better. I don't have, like, a specific --

BOLDUAN: Right.

VINDMAN: -- policy proposal but I just think it can be done better with higher levels of motivation.

BOLDUAN: The other issue that is -- has seemed to consume all of the oxygen on Capitol Hill before the August recess was what -- how the -- what is happening with this Jeffrey Epstein investigation and calls for more transparency. We now have the deputy attorney general who interviewed Epstein's

convicted girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell yesterday, and they're meeting again today.

You have said that you want to see the Epstein documents released. Do you think there is something of substance happening in these discussions between the deputy attorney general and Ghislaine Maxwell down there or do you think it is a show? What do you think of this?

VINDMAN: Look, I'm highly skeptical. The bottom line is the president -- his hyperbole and conspiracy theories over years got his base to support him over this, and that's why he's in so much hot water. I mean, he's in real trouble now. He's all over the Epstein files. His close association with Jeffrey Epstein is very well documented.

And frankly, this pictogram or whatever it was that he sent to Jeffrey Epstein as a birthday gift was disturbing. When I read that my sort of Spidey sense as a former prosecutor went off. I heard some alarm bells.

So I think there is a lot of there there. I think the president has promised transparency and that's exactly what he owes to all of the American people, and his base is demanding it.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. We'll see what happens today since there seems to be more developments -- each one.

Congressman Vindman, thank you for your time -- John.

BERMAN: This afternoon former representative George Santos expected to report to a prison in New Jersey to begin his 87-month sentence. The former New York congressman who was expelled from the House in 2023 pled guilty to federal wire fraud charges stemming from his 2022 midterm campaign.

[07:55:00]

In a farewell post, Santos wrote, "Well, darlings, the curtain falls, the spotlight dims, and the rhinestones are packed." He ended the message by saying, "I may be leaving the stage (for now), but trust me legends never truly exit."

New video from rain soaked New Mexico shows a trailer getting swept away by rushing floodwaters. The trailer crashes into a tree, you can see right there, and then ultimately rips apart on a second tree before floating in pieces downstream.

And for the first time in the U.S., Uber is giving women more control over who is behind the wheel. Female riders can now request women drivers, part of a move to prevent sexual assault. Women drivers can also set preferences to only pick up female passengers. The program is set to start in Los Angeles, San Franciso, and Detroit in the coming weeks -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right. So there is new CNN reporting about Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg and how he's shelling out billions of dollars to get ahead in the AI wars. Reportedly, he wants to be the first to reach a so- called artificial superintelligence. That's the theoretical point where AI goes beyond the capabilities of human knowledge.

To get there, Zuckerberg is on a mission to create -- to pull together an all-star team of researchers and engineers in order to beat his competitors in this race.

CNN's Clare Duffy has much more on this and she's here with us right now. What are you learning about this?

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yeah. It's almost like this AI talent war -- we've reached a place where it's like these are basketball teams, and they are shelling out multimillion dollar packages --

BOLDUAN: Yeah, the draft.

DUFFY: -- totally -- to hire the best researchers and software engineers, the best product managers to get ahead in the AI race. And it appears that Mark Zuckerberg is really willing to spare almost no expense to make sure that his company is the one that wins.

Of course, as you said, he's been shelling out tens of billions -- hundreds of billions of dollars on datacenter infrastructure to power his AI ambitions and now he's pulling together this all-star team.

He has been on this hiring spree that really kicked off with an investment of $14 billion into the AI startup Scale AI. Out of that deal he got to hire its CEO to run this new Meta superintelligence lab. But he's also been able to hire talent away from Anthropic, from Google, from OpenAI, Scale AI, Apple. He is trying to make sure that he has the best talent and maybe that his competitors don't.

And, of course, the stakes for Zuckerberg are really high here. He has, in many ways, reoriented the company around artificial intelligence. He wants to be more than just a social media platform. And his big bet on the metaverse didn't pay off, so now he is hoping that AI is going to be the thing that makes Meta the leader in the next technology wave.

Here's how he described his ambitions. He says, "I'm focused on building the most elite and talent-dense team in the industry." He said this on a threads post earlier this month.

And the company also has made some big bets around devices and around its AI ad business that make it really important that Meta succeeds in building the most powerful and the most capable AI system.

My question now is sort of like once you've got 25 people in a room that are all making maybe tens of hundreds of millions of dollars, how do you lead those people? What do you tell them their goal is? I think that's going to be the big task for Alexandr Wang who, of course, left Scale AI and is now leading this team at Meta.

BOLDUAN: I mean, the numbers involved here are just wow.

DUFFY: Mind-boggling.

BOLDUAN: It really is.

DUFFY: And it is something that Meta has a leg up here because it has this really healthy social media business. So it's got the money to spend on this -- on this new goal.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

It's great to see you, Clare.

DUFFY: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much, as always -- John.

BERMAN: All right. This morning testimony resumes in the trial of James Craig; the Colorado dentist accused of killing his wife with poison protein shakes. Angela Craig was hospitalized three times in 10 days with symptoms that no one could explain.

Angela's brother testified that James Craig told him his wife's last words were "Why do I hurt?"

We're also learning about alleged affairs Craig had in the months before his wife's death.

CNN's Whitney Wild has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Significant testimony we heard in court. Some of it was from women who allege that they had affairs with James Craig. Three women testified that they met him on a website called seeking.com.

And they said that James Craig lavished them with gifts. One woman said that she bought -- that he bought her daughter a car. Another woman said that he gave her $8,000 in monetary gifts.

And one woman said that she and James Craig had a conversation about this movie "The Purge." And if you're not familiar with it, the plot of "The Purge" is that there's this brief period of time where all violent crime, including murder, is legal. And he told her that if that were real life, he would purge his wife.

So it was quite a moment of witness testimony.

We also heard from her siblings. One of them is Mark Pray, and he was a man who -- and this is her older brother. He came to help out while Angela was in and out of the hospital because she was getting so sick. And he described the hours and days leading up to the moment when she as actually declared braindead.

And she said the morning before her last hospital stay, she was doing OK. He had given her some oatmeal to eat. He gave her medicine as instructed by James Craig.