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Deputy AG Meets Again with Epstein Accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell; Trump, Powell Spar Over Cost of Fed Renovations on Tense Tour; Powell: The Fed Would Have Cut Rates if it Weren't for Tariffs; Israel, U.S. Withdraw Teams from Gaza Ceasefire Talks in Doha. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired July 25, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Her brain dead. And he said the morning before her last hospital stay, she was doing OK. He had given her some oatmeal to eat. He gave her medicine as instructed by James Craig.

James Craig asked her brother to give her two pills from a pill bottle. He gave her those pills and then he said within 20 to 25 minutes she took a turn for the worse. She started calling out to him. They rushed her back to the emergency room and it was in that stay where she was later declared brain dead.

This brother also testified that James Craig's behavior was odd. He was coming in and out of the hospital. He would disappear at times. He was having a hard time understanding where James Craig was because, you know, his wife was fighting for her life and James Craig for periods of time was nowhere to be found.

Her older sister also testified more about her, giving more texture to her life and really bringing her to life for the jury. And she said that she was a loving mother, that she was living a vibrant life. She had hobbies. Everybody loved her. She was calm and in control and she said she absolutely was not suicidal.

That is crucial testimony because prosecutors know, central to James Craig's defense, is planting some doubt with the jury that it's possible Angela Craig was suicidal, although this older sister testified she was absolutely not suicidal.

This, again, highly emotional testimony we continue to hear from. We expect this trial to last weeks and we expect more witness testimony today. Back to you.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are standing by for the president to leave the White House any minute. How will he respond to questions about the so-called birthday book he reportedly signed for Jeffrey Epstein? There's new reporting there. As the deputy attorney general prepares for a new day of questioning of the woman convicted of conspiring to sexually abuse minors along with Epstein. We are bracing for the markets to open following the real-time fact check from the Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell in a cringy moment with the president.

Sara is out. I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, a highly unorthodox meeting is set for round two in just a few hours. The deputy attorney general of the United States, Todd Blanche, is going to be meeting with Jeffrey Epstein's convicted former girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell, meeting again at the U.S. attorney's office in Tallahassee, Florida. That is where Maxwell is serving a 20-year sentence for conspiring, as John just mentioned, with Jeffrey Epstein to sexually abuse young girls.

There are very big questions surrounding all of this, given the, one, obscurity of the meeting, and two, the lack of credibility that this woman has.

What was asked of her? What information did Maxwell provide? What is being negotiated? And what is her motivation to speak at all? And can she be trusted to tell the truth?

Todd Blanche has said the Justice Department will be sharing any information that they learn, but quote, at the appropriate time.

And this all puts into focus, once again, how the White House is struggling, the president is struggling to turn the page on the issue over the Epstein files, as he has called it a hoax. But very clearly, he can't shake it, and Congress does not share that viewpoint.

Congress has made it clear they don't think it is a hoax. They want to see the files, and they aren't giving up. The Republican chair of the House Oversight Committee, James Comer, has already issued a subpoena to depose Maxwell. And he also says he's now moving quickly with issuing a subpoena to the Justice Department for all of those Epstein files.

CNN's Kara Scannell tracking all of this for us this morning. What are you learning now, Kara?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Kate. Those are all great questions and questions that we are trying to get the answers to. But as you said, this is the second meeting, the second day in a row where Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche is meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell.

Maxwell is convicted and serving a 20-year sentence for sex trafficking of minors. Prosecutors had proven at a four-week trial that Maxwell had abused underage girls, recruited them and groomed them for Epstein to also sexually abuse them.

So the big questions here is what are the terms of this meeting? What are the ground rules here? Is Maxwell being offered anything for her testimony? She is trying to appeal her conviction and also this 20- year sentence that she is only a few years into serving. So a lot of questions about what is left to talk about today. We did see yesterday that the lawyers met for the full day. They arrived at 9 a.m. They left at 4 p.m.

David Oscar Markus, Maxwell's attorney, told CNN afterwards he said that -- Ghislaine honestly answered every question that Mr. Blanche asked and she will continue to do so. We are grateful that the government is trying to uncover the truth.

[08:05:00]

Now what the content of these discussions are, the questions, the answers, Blanche has said that he wants to know if Maxwell knows of anyone that committed any crimes against minors, these victims of the case.

Now Maxwell has denied any wrongdoing. She was in fact charged by the Justice Department with perjury for what she said in a civil lawsuit when she denied any knowledge of Epstein's scheme to recruit underage girls and have them give him sexualized massages. She has always maintained her innocence. So it is unclear what the scope of this testimony is, why it requires two days, and what she is saying.

Though we did see the video of her returning to prison yesterday where she was carrying a box in her hands. It is unclear what is in that box. It could be items that she brought to the meeting or maybe it's information they want her to review.

But she will be back in this meeting today and we'll look to see how soon it is afterwards that Todd Blanche might update the public on what transpired in this meeting, what the Justice Department learned, is it going to be enough to kind of quell the growing storm around this, the storm that won't go away, and if Maxwell's attorney provides any update today -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yes, Kara Scannell, thank you so much -- John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now, CNN political commentator Alyssa Farah Griffin and CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. And I have to say, Elie, that Kara just raised, you know, a number of really important points here as we head into this extraordinary day two of meetings between Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell.

What are the terms? What are the ground rules? What's in the box that Maxwell was carrying? And how will we ever find out?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: OK. What is happening here resembles superficially the very ordinary cooperation process that I went through countless times as a prosecutor.

You have a criminal defendant. That person's interested in cooperating. You spend days upon days with them and you download everything they have.

It looks like that's what's happening here. But let's be clear, it's not -- this is not going to result in Ghislaine Maxwell becoming a full cooperating witness for the United States of America. This is not realistically, given her credibility problems, given her past, going to result in DOJ in signing her up as a cooperator, giving her a sentencing break, indicting new people based on her, calling her as a witness at trial.

And so the question then becomes, and I think these are what Kara's questions go to, what is the end game? What are they trying to do? It looks to me like they're trying to check a box or trying to appease the critics, be able to say, look, we sat down with her, we got information, we dug in, we tried to find the truth, and hopefully that'll appease people.

I don't know it'll work, but I think that's the end game.

BERMAN: And how will we find, I mean, I think, look, we're going to hear only, I think, what Maxwell is telling Blanche via Blanche and maybe Maxwell's attorneys and all of their interests may be aligned. I mean, how will we ever see real data?

HONIG: Exactly. You would never have somebody audio recording this type of scenario or video recording this type of scenario. We don't know, but I would assume that holds true here.

Ordinarily, and it seems like what's happening here is you will have a prosecutor, Todd Blanche, in this case -- very unusual, by the way, that it's the deputy AG asking questions -- and one or more FBI agents taking notes.

They will then -- the FBI agents will produce what's called a 302, which is a written summary, but you're right. Who controls the questioning and then who controls what we see of this? The answer is DOJ, Todd Blanche and the FBI.

BERMAN: Alyssa, you know, to quote the famous political film, Mean Girls, the president keeps trying to make hoax happen when it comes to the Epstein case. He calls it Democratic hoax and whatnot. But I want you to listen to House Speaker Mike Johnson, what he just said about all of this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: We want full transparency. We want everybody who is involved in any way with the Epstein evils -- let's call it what it was -- to be brought to justice as quickly as possible. We want the full weight of the law on their heads.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a hoax In other words.

JOHNSON: Oh, it's not a hoax. Of course not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Of course not. So what does that tell you about the messaging the president has been trying to deliver? As again, we're standing by to see the president depart for Scotland, where I imagine Epstein may come up on his way out. ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, the president can't make hoax or fetch happen at this point. But listen, Mike Johnson and Donald Trump are virtually always aligned. But in this moment, keep in mind, we're a year and four months out from the midterms.

Mike Johnson's members are going home to their districts for this August recess. And many of them are going to hear from very angry constituents over the flip flop and reversal on the Epstein files.

Many voters turned out. One of the reasons they did is they wanted to get to the bottom of this. You know, Donald Trump doesn't really have to deal with this beyond just the continual drip, drip of questions and getting grilled by reporters. But he is not standing for reelection again.

And Mike Johnson's top job right now is keeping the House majority. So he is going to have to create some daylight with Trump. He also said something interesting when asked yesterday, I believe, where he kind of sowed some doubt that Ghislaine Maxwell could actually be a trustworthy person because this is a convicted sex trafficker.

[08:10:00]

This is somebody who assisted a man with grooming and with bringing other women into this horrible, horrible circumstances. So he also seems to be maybe kind of pouring some cold water on the idea that she's going to help us get to the bottom of anything or that she herself should be trusted.

It's the right move. It's the right move by Johnson. He's got to focus on protecting his members and cannot have them dragged down by the White House's mishandling of this.

BERMAN: It is interesting. You bring up Maxwell again. You have to hope people do remember what some of the victims, Epstein's victims have said.

I mean, have said that -- this was testimony in her trial -- that she sexually abused them. She was convicted of conspiring to sexually abuse minors. And how much of a risk, Alyssa, is there that in these meetings where the Justice Department, you know, seems to be praising the idea of the meetings Maxwell's lawyers are praising the Justice Department?

How much political risk is there of trying to seem too cozy?

GRIFFIN: I honestly think it's a complete misreading of the room. If you want justice for Jeffrey Epstein, if you are outraged over the behavior he engaged in, you should be equally outraged over Ghislaine Maxwell's behavior. I mean, there's a special place in hell for women who would help men abuse younger women. That's just, I think that's a universal take of people who want to get to the bottom of this Epstein saga.

So there, I think, is a real fear. Is she going to get some kind of a deal? Is she incentivized that she should cooperate with what the Justice Department or the White House wants to hear her say because she might get a more lenient sentence or ultimately a pardon at the end of Trump's term?

Those are things that his base does not want. They see her as as big of a monster as Jeffrey Epstein.

So I think they have to navigate this really carefully. I think the first thought is, OK, we might get some answers from her, but we're skeptical because she's untrustworthy. If she helps us nail some people who are involved in this, fine.

But if it seems like this is actually kind of to whitewash her own wrongdoing and criminality, I think that that's going to really backfire on the White House.

BERMAN: Elie, a whole bunch of reporting on the so-called birthday book. The Wall Street Journal is the one who originally reported that Donald Trump had written this note in the book and then signed his name and done a doodle. He denied that, suing the Wall Street Journal. The New York Times says his name is on a list of contributors to the book.

Again, having your name in the book or even in the Jeffrey Epstein files doesn't indicate wrongdoing. However, the presence of a book, if there is, in fact, this birthday book and it's, you know, subpoenaed by Congress. Ro Khanna says he wants to see it right now.

How does the presence of a book, if it's proven, affect Donald Trump's lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal?

HONIG: Well, the presence of -- the existence of that book would kill Donald Trump's lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal. What he has to show in order to prove they defamed him is that A, their reporting is false and B, that they knew it was false. So if it exists, it's sounding more and more like it does. That's going to really undermine, really probably end his defamation case.

If I can real quick, Alyssa and Speaker Johnson both made very good points. The reasons Ghislaine Maxwell is not going to solve anything for anyone.

One, she has no credibility. Remember who she is. People are treating her now like she's a savior.

She's a convicted sex trafficker who has done nothing but refuse to talk. And when she has talked, lied. And anyone who's holding out hope that she's going to come in and bring justice for these victims, think again.

BERMAN: Again, it just depends on what your standard here is. If this is a legal prosecutorial standard, that might be one thing. But if the goal here is purely political, there might be some different rules that apply. Although I think Alyssa got into that as well.

Alyssa Farah Griffin, thank you, Elie Honig, counselor, as always, appreciate it.

Quote, the starvation is evident, a dire warning about the growing humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

And a testy exchange at the Federal Reserve, the Fed chair delivers a real-time, face-to-face fact check of the president.

[08:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: President Donald Trump made a rare visit to the Federal Reserve headquarters yesterday. He went there to tour the ongoing building renovations, he said. Renovations that have become something of an obsession of the president's of recent.

It's the first time in nearly 20 years a sitting president has visited the Fed. And while he was there, standing side by side with Jerome Powell in hard hats on heads and hard hats in hands, the president went off once again criticizing Powell for what he called cost overruns and what he sees as cost overruns and the scope of them -- of the project, which then led to the Fed chairman to fact check his math in real time.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TRUMP: The 2.7 is not 3.1 and --

JEROME POWELL, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE: I'm not aware of that.

TRUMP: It just came out.

REP. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): Our notes added about 3.1 as well.

TRUMP: Three-point-one.

SCOTT: Three-point-one or 3.2.

POWELL: This came from us.

TRUMP: Yes. I don't know who does that.

POWELL: Are you including the Martin renovation? You just added --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your entire capital --

POWELL: No, no. You just added -- you just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building.

TRUMP: Well, I know, but it's a building that's being built.

POWELL: No. It's been -- it was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago.

TRUMP: It's part of the overall work. So --

POWELL: No, it's not new.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Joining us right now is Natasha Sarin. She's president and co-founder of the Budget Lab at Yale. She also served as a counselor to former Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen. It's good to see you again. Thanks for coming in.

I mean, what went -- what went through your mind when you saw the president and Jerome Powell, one, walking through this renovation together, and then what, and then that really awkward exchange?

NATASHA SARIN, FORMER DEPUTY ASST. SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC POLICY: No, it's like, it was pretty stunning scenes. Like, I'm not really sure I've ever seen anything like that in my lifetime as I've been watching these things.

And I think the piece that's like, kind of especially wild is that with all that is going on in the economy at the moment, with all of this uncertainty about these trade wars, with families trying to figure out how they're going to go back to school shopping for their kids and be able to afford school supplies or buy a new car, that the leader of the free world and the chairman of the Federal Reserve are walking around a construction site in hard hats is just kind of a remarkable scene.

[08:20:02]

BOLDUAN: It really is. I mean, and the president, at another point, the president standing right next to Powell, he was asked a question and he leaned over and he says, I want him to lower rates. I mean, right to his face saying, I want -- the thing that really obviously gets at the president is he wants Jerome Powell, even though he can't singularly do it, to lower interest rates, which to state the obvious, you know, it just does not happen. Like the president openly pressuring the independent Federal Reserve chairman to do what I want you to do does not happen but doesn't does happen now.

What is then the expectation to come from the next Fed meeting? It's coming up.

SARIN: So I think there's a couple of pieces in there that are really quite important to unpack. As you were saying, like, first of all, it is not like Chair Powell has some sort of like magic button that he presses and then interest rates come down.

BOLDUAN: Right.

SARIN: The reality is he is one member of a 12 member committee that's going to meet next week and evaluate two things.

They're going to evaluate the state of inflation and the nature of the labor market and make choices about what the interest rate trajectory should be.

You know, I think the reality is like, even if the president wants to see lower interest rates effectuated, this is not the way that gets done. The way that gets done, Chair Powell has been explicit. The Fed would have already cut interest rates had it not been for all this uncertainty related to this trade war.

So really, this is counterproductive and it is not going to effectuate the result he desires, which is to see Americans be able to afford mortgages and new homes.

BOLDUAN: And odd -- so there's an interesting bit that and there's a lot to it, right? You can look at one industry versus another and how it is being impacted by the trade war. The Wall Street Journal had some interesting reporting I was looking at this morning. Basically saying that the U.S. has collected, the way they put it, is an additional 55 billion in tariffs this year and that corporate America is largely shouldering the bill. They're absorbing this price so far. And here's how they put it.

It's becoming increasingly clear that U.S. businesses from General Motors and Nike to the local florist are absorbing much of the costs for now. In a competitive market, a company that hikes prices could lose market share to a rival that keeps its steady. Many are reluctant to raise prices until they absolutely must and until they know the ever changing tariffs are sticking around.

It's all about the uncertainty. But what do you see -- it's like anyone who wants to come at this from any angle can choose what they want in this is how it kind of looks from the outside looking in.

What do you see here?

SARIN: So the thing that I think is like pretty important is that you are starting to see prices rise in sectors that are especially tariff impacted. So you're starting to see things like household furnishings, furniture prices are on the rise. You're starting to see things like consumer electronics prices rising.

And in some sense, that's not that surprising. The work that I do with my colleagues at the budget lab at Yale kind of goes sector by sector and tries to estimate the impact of these tariffs. We are currently at an effective tariff rate of over 20 percent.

When this administration started, that effective tariff rate was around two and a half percent. So these are really sizable moves. We expect that in something like apparel, price increases are going to go up on the order of 35 percent.

It is not possible for retailers and importers and American businesses to shoulder --

BOLDUAN: Eat it up.

SARIN: -- the burden of that type of substantial increase. So I agree we're in like this bit of a wait and see moment --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

SARIN: -- in part because businesses are trying to figure out exactly where these tariffs are going to land. And right now --

BOLDUAN: What's the deal going to be struck with this?

SARIN: What's the deal that's going to be struck with that? Right.

BOLDUAN: Yes, so.

SARIN: And ahead of these deadlines next week. So lots going on.

BOLDUAN: Exactly. OK, we'll see you then. It's really good to see you. Thanks for coming in again.

SARIN: Thanks so much.

BOLDUAN: So coming up for us, smoke is seen billowing over Gaza overnight after several blasts were heard. And as one world leader is now calling out, as they describe it, unspeakable and indefensible humanitarian conditions there.

And the World Health Organization chief says Gaza is facing man-made mass starvation.

And UnitedHealthcare is now facing a federal investigation over its Medicare billing practices. We'll be right back.

[08:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: New this morning, the U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff is bringing home the U.S. team helping negotiate a hostage and ceasefire deal to Israel and Hamas. Israel also recalling its negotiating team. The reason Steve Witkoff posted is that the latest response from Hamas to the ceasefire proposal on the table, quote, clearly shows a lack of desire to reach a ceasefire -- this being Hamas.

Witkoff also added that the United States will now consider alternative options to bring the hostages home and try to create a more stable environment for the people of Gaza.

That environment, those conditions in Gaza right now getting worse by the hour. UNICEF is now reporting that the number of children in Gaza dying from malnutrition is up 54 percent since April, and 900,000 children are going hungry. That's according to numbers from the Gaza health ministry.

The prime minister of the Palestinian Authority spoke exclusively with CNN's Christiane Amanpour about this all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMMAD MUSTAFA, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PRIME MINISTER: Our people deserve dignity, deserve to live normally, deserve to get food, to get water, to live normally. We believe that wars will not bring peace to this region, and these actions will only bring hatred and anger to this region. Displacement, starvation, things are extremely difficult. Action is

needed, especially in terms of opening the border crossings. This is the first thing needs to be done so that aid can come in as soon as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: He also added that in his view, Hamas is doing the best that they can.

Joining us right now, though, to talk about the humanitarian crisis on the ground is Hani Almadhoun. He's a co-founder of Gaza Soup Kitchen and the senior director of philanthropy for the UN Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA. Thank you so much for being here, Hani.

Some of the other data that's coming out that is so startling is that more than 100 people have died from malnutrition during Israel's war with Gaza, 80 percent of them children. That's coming from UNICEF.

And at least four children have died from starvation in the past 48 hours.