Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta; Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza; George Santos Headed to Prison; Will Trump Pardon Ghislaine Maxwell?. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired July 25, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:00:55]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: That's not a no for $1,000. President Trump says he hasn't thought about a pardon for Jeffrey Epstein's convicted associate Ghislaine Maxwell. He also says he's allowed to pardon her, as the top DOJ official who is his former personal lawyer just wrapped up his second meeting with Maxwell.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Plus, fresh off the U.S. pulling out of the Gaza cease-fire talks, the president says Hamas did not want to make a deal and he thinks they -- quote -- "want to die." The breakdown of those talks may worsen what is already a dire humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

And reporting to prison. Disgraced former Congressman George Santos begins his lengthy sentence today. We're going to talk to a prison consultant about what life could be like on the inside for Santos.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to see an interview central.

KEILAR: Happening now, President Trump is flying to Scotland, leaving Washington after facing new questions on the Jeffrey Epstein controversy.

Just moments ago, we learned the second in command at the Justice Department, the president's former personal lawyer, wrapped up his second meeting with Epstein's imprisoned associate Ghislaine Maxwell. The president did not rule out a pardon when asked about it this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell if...

(CROSSTALK)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's something I haven't thought about. It's really something...

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: ... recommended it to you.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: It's -- I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: He says he hasn't thought about it. He is allowed to do it.

He then offered his new take on the purported lewd birthday card that he denies sending Epstein back in 2003.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: You did not write a letter for Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book?

TRUMP: I don't even know what they're talking about. Now, somebody could have written a letter and used my name. That's happened a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Trump has not been accused of any wrongdoing related to Epstein, it is worth noting.

Let's bring in CNN's Kara Scannell, who is closely following the DOJ's meeting with Maxwell.

Kara, what's the latest in what is really an extraordinary meeting?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, it really is extraordinary. This is the second day in the row the number two at the Justice Department is meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell, who is Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend and convicted co-conspirator in a sex trafficking charge.

Now, this meeting just wrapped up a few moments ago. Maxwell's attorney, David Oscar Markus, spoke to reporters. He said the meeting lasted just less than four hours today. That's following yesterday's all-day meeting. He said about the pardon, he said that they haven't spoken with Trump about a pardon, but he was also asked about the kind of relief they were hoping to get out of this meeting.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID OSCAR MARKUS, ATTORNEY FOR GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We don't know how it's going to play out. We just know that this was the first opportunity she's ever been given to answer questions about what happened. And so the truth will come out about what happened with Mr. Epstein, and she's the person who's answering those questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCANNELL: Now, her lawyer said that she didn't hold back, was asked questions about everyone, and he said that she answered them honestly.

Earlier today, when he was heading in, he also called Maxwell a scapegoat in this investigation and prosecution. And that has been a theme that Maxwell has used, where she has maintained her innocence for decades about any role and any connection with Jeffrey Epstein. So it's really unclear of what she is telling them today.

It doesn't sound, based on that characterization, as though she has changed what her posture has been, which is that she had nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. But we're waiting to hear if Todd Blanche is going to say anything about this.

He did say that he would make a comment at the appropriate time, whenever that may be, but certainly a lot of questions of what is potentially going to come out of this publicly. There's also a House subpoena for Maxwell. Remains to be seen how she will respond to that and what she will say.

[13:05:02]

But her credibility, which her lawyer said it was unfair for people not to believe her, but her credibility is in question because she was also charged with perjury as part of that earlier investigation because the Justice Department then believed that she was lying when she denied having any knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein's scheme to recruit and groom underage girls for his sexual appetite -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, the scheme she was convicted of being a part of.

And just to be clear here, Kara, her lawyer says this is the first time she's been given an opportunity to answer questions about what happened. Just to be clear, she had a trial, right, where she could have answered questions about what happened?

SCANNELL: Exactly, Brianna. She could have testified in her own defense at that criminal trial. At the trial, there were four women who testified that, as minors, Maxwell had recruited them to be part of Epstein's sexual scheme.

And at least one of them testified that Maxwell herself participated in this. At the time, Maxwell declined to testify in her own defense. And she has always maintained her innocence in this case and against these allegations, which have stemmed for decades, in a number of civil lawsuits as well.

KEILAR: Yes, to hear the reporting on this, there really was no scheme without Ghislaine Maxwell. And that is what the court decided.

Kara Scannell, thank you so much for the great reporting -- Jessica.

DEAN: And for more on the political fallout around all of this, we're joined now by journalist and author of The Red Letter on Substack, Tara Palmeri. She's also the host of "The Tara Palmeri Show" podcast and has reported extensively on the Epstein case.

Tara, good to see you. Thanks for being here.

I know you posted: "MAGA is trying to float that Ghislaine Maxwell is a victim. She's a predator and everyone knows it."

What are you seeing, what are you hearing, as someone who has reported so extensively on this case?

TARA PALMERI, HOST, "THE TARA PALMERI SHOW": They're trying to suggest that she deserves some sort of clemency, that she has bravery and courage, was what Charlie Kirk said on his show.

You had a Newsmax host, Greg Kelly, suggest that she might not be a predator, that she might be a victim herself. President Trump said she has a good heart. It seems like they're laying the groundwork to suggest this person does not deserve 20 years in prison.

But every single story is consistent when it comes to Ghislaine Maxwell and the way that she groomed these young girls, the way that she brought them to Jeffrey Epstein's home. I mean, she was a posh, sophisticated woman. Her father owned "The New York Daily News," "The Daily Mirror." She went to Oxford. She was friends with the prince and a president.

And she would find these young girls and she would say, you're beautiful. You're special. You want to be a model. You want to go to college. We're a couple. We can't have children. We can make your dreams come true. And the only way that they would be lured to a 50- year-old man's house was through the safety of a woman. And so she used that.

And in the case of Annie Farmer and others like Virginia Giuffre, they said that on -- the first time that they were molested by Jeffrey Epstein, that Ghislaine Maxwell was molesting them as well, touching their bodies. So it's just -- it's incredible to suggest that this woman has a good heart or that she might be a victim herself.

These girls would have never ended up in Jeffrey Epstein's house if they didn't feel the security of a woman bringing them there, a posh, sophisticated woman that did not seem in any way to be a madam or a groomer. She traded on her connections to do that. And I think people are losing -- they're losing the plot and how this happened. She was the top of a pyramid scheme and a very sophisticated criminal operation.

And she said it to many of her friends that Jeffrey Epstein needed three orgasms per day, and that's what she would do and she tried to make sure that happened for him.

DEAN: And, look, we heard President Trump today say he hasn't thought about a pardon for Maxwell. That's what he's saying publicly. What is your sense about what's going on behind the scenes? Is this something that's even seriously been considered or thought about? PALMERI: Well, why entertain this meeting between the number two law

enforcement official in the United States and this woman who is a pedophile and criminal in jail if there is not some sort of motive to it?

I mean, what's the point? She's not going to speak unless she gets something out of it. Why do you think -- you can go to the victims. They will give you information they have over years. They have had to testify and relive their trauma over years. There's tons of testimony. There are tons of third-party conspirators in their documents that have been redacted in the FBI vaults and files.

If you wanted to actually follow up on these cases, you can. So what is the point of going to go Ghislaine Maxwell, when you have nearly 1,000 victims who could help you put together a case?

She's only going to give you testimony that is going to say that she was a victim, that she did nothing wrong, or she could possibly exonerate the president, and not to say that he did anything wrong, but if her testimony helps him, it couldn't be a wink, wink, nod, nod, and she gets some sort of pardon.

[13:10:18]

I mean, he's already not ruled it out. It makes a lot of the victims who have already been through this feeling like they're being shut out of the justice system and out of the process, feel like they're being revictimized, because, back in 2008, when she -- when Epstein was first tried, they kept them completely out, in the dark of the process.

They never told them about the non-prosecution agreement, which, by the way, included Ghislaine Maxwell, that she would not be prosecuted in this. And it's long been a two-tiered justice process. So they're terrified that again the government will side with the powerful, and they will lose the tiniest shred of justice that they have actually had in that, seeing Ghislaine Maxwell in prison.

DEAN: Yes, and just letting everyone know, you did publish a piece earlier this week called "How the DOJ is retraumatizing Epstein survivors." It's worth remembering their role in all of this and what they have had to go through. Those survivors have had to go through this again and again and again.

All right, Tara Palmeri, thank you so much. Really appreciate it -- Brianna.

KEILAR: At any moment, disgraced former Congressman George Santos is set to report to prison to begin his more than seven-year sentence.

Santos, who was expelled from the House of Representatives in 2023, just the sixth member to be expelled, pleaded guilty last year to federal wire fraud and identity theft charges. In a recent interview with Tucker Carlson, he revealed his fears about serving time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FMR. REP. GEORGE SANTOS (R-NY): Can I be honest with you?

TUCKER CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I think you will.

SANTOS: I don't know that I survive it. They're putting me in a violent prison. It's a medium facility. I'm not a streetwise guy. I don't know how to fight. It's just not me. I'm not that guy. I don't know that I survive this. I mean, I am -- this could be very much my last interview.

And I'm not trying to be overdramatic here. I'm just being honest with you. I look at this as practically a death sentence to what could occur to me. And we have seen this. It's not like I'm saying something out of the ordinary. I'm not built for this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining us now is Justin Paperny. He's a prison consultant and he's the director of White Collar Advice.

Justin, we have talked many times as people are getting ready to go into a situation like this. You hear him talking about his concerns there. Should he be this concerned about his safety? What is the real story?

JUSTIN PAPERNY, PRISON CONSULTANT: The real story is, he wasn't prepared. He kept saying he's going to a medium security prison. You surrender to the medium, and, of course, he's going to serve his sentence in a minimum security camp.

He will continue to struggle because he fails to put himself in the shoes of like a judge or a case manager. A case manager is focused on the sentence. You know what George Santos never discusses? Victims he created. If anyone is the victim, it is him. I know he's in prison and I know what he wants, because I have been there. He wants to get out. The question is how.

Until he begins to answer how, putting himself in the shoes of a case manager beginning to build a new record, more struggle, more pain and a journey that could be productive, where he could use his platform to educate and inspire through a platform like prison professor talent, where you can write through prison for free, he will continue to play the victim, which is why he will eventually say his prison term was like Groundhog Day, the same experience again and again and again.

And it's all his fault.

KEILAR: It is -- we have talked time and again. It's a mental game, right? It's so much a mental frame of mind about how you go into this situation.

Talk to us about what the prison will be like. What is his -- what's a day in the life in a prison like that?

PAPERNY: Well, to hear him say survive prison is insulting to someone serving time in a minimum security camp. Hundreds of thousands of people are released from camps every year. They're fine.

The experience in a minimum security camp, it can be boring or can be incredibly productive. He can complain, go into the television room, have sycophants around him listen to the life that he had, the people that he knew, what it's like to be interviewed by Tucker.

And there will always be that audience. Or he can say, hmm, what can I do to change the perception that people have of me that I am an inveterate liar? See, some people go to prison. They make a bad choice, like parents in the Varsity Blues case. One bad decision, they get caught, they're in prison. There are people that lie over a lifetime.

So what he can do is spend time in the library, perhaps go to the library in education and teach. Talk about how he became a member of Congress, bad decisions he's made and how he's overcoming them. You can introspect, you can write, you can read. I wrote a blog. I wrote a book.

[13:15:00]

There is so much that you can do because you have so much time inside of this minimum security camp. Again, he's got to put himself in the shoes of a case manager who is going to look at the probation report, the victim impact statements and the judge.

And until he's able to recognize the pain and harm that he has caused, it doesn't really matter what his life is like on the inside, because it will be more pain when he comes home, and it will turn out to be a life sanction in so many ways, unfortunately.

And I'd encourage him to do his job. A number of high-profile people are given the opportunity to pay someone to do their job, but he may be scrubbing toilets and showers or doing pots and pans like I did in prison. It builds character, which is something he needs at this time.

KEILAR: So you said he hasn't prepared. That seems certainly evident to you. Explain why you think that, but also how should he have prepared?

PAPERNY: When you plead guilty and you create victims, the first thing you should say to anyone is, I am ashamed. I am embarrassed. I created victims, and here's my plan to create an asset, to build a record that shows I'm different than the plea agreement, somehow take the totality of my life into consideration.

Yet, when you do an interview that talks about wearing Ferragamos to prison -- now, I'm very literal. It's a problem. But even if he's not wearing the Ferragamos, to talk about wearing Ferragamos to prison and saying that he is transparent and an open communicator is akin to believing tobacco companies really don't want you to chew tobacco or smoke cigarettes because it's not good for you.

It is insane. So the problems will continue because of his poor preparation and his inability to say what so many defendants are unable to say when they plead guilty. It is all my fault. I accept responsibility. Here's my plan to do better, not through happy talk or cliches. Here's a plan that I will build over time.

He should share that plan with the judge who sentenced him to prison. He should share it with his probation officer, because you know what you want when you go to prison? You want to get out early, especially with new directives coming from the Bureau of Prisons that is allowing eligible people to go straight home.

He will want more liberty on probation, early supervision. Instead, he applies for a pardon he hasn't earned. He fails to build a record that shows why he is a candidate for more leniency. It all starts with saying, I am sorry. I am ashamed. I will do better. And the people that voted for me, I will do better. Hold me accountable.

Until that happens, more problems are following for George Santos.

KEILAR: Justin Paperny, it is always illuminating to speak to you and get insights from your personal experience as well. Thank you so much for being with us.

PAPERNY: You're very welcome.

KEILAR: Still to come this hour: Texas Republicans are looking to boost the party's razor-thin margin in Congress by redrawing the lines of districts. Why some say this move might actually backfire.

Plus, new analysis from President Trump's alma mater says his immigration crackdown could shrink the economy. We will have details on that ahead.

DEAN: And desperation at a community kitchen in Gaza, as the starvation crisis there worsens. Israel says it will now allow airdrops of aid -- ahead, why humanitarian organizations say that method is very dangerous.

You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:22:12]

KEILAR: Cease-fire talks between Israel and Hamas are now in limbo after the U.S. and Israel withdrew their teams from negotiations in Doha, Qatar.

Today, President Trump said Hamas did not want to make a cease-fire for hostages deal in Gaza. Hamas disputes those claims, saying that a breakthrough was close. The stalled talks have added to the catastrophic humanitarian crisis that we are seeing in Gaza right now.

According to UNICEF, more than 100 people have died from malnutrition since the war began, 80 percent of them children and most of them recently. An Israeli security official says it plans to allow airdrops of badly needed aid into Gaza in the coming days. But the U.N. is warning that airdrops are costly and dangerous.

CNN's Jennifer Hansler is with us now. Jennifer, bring us up to speed on where things stand with talks and

aid. And, also, there is some new reporting that you have been working onlooking into aid and Hamas' involvement or lack thereof in monetizing it.

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT REPORTER: Well, that's right, Brianna.

In terms of the talks, they are largely on ice right now, with the U.S. and Israel recalling their negotiating teams from Doha. The negotiators, Qatar and Egypt, say they will continue these talks. But we heard from President Trump today suggesting the Israeli military could finish the job of the war there in Gaza.

And there had been a lot of hope that a cease-fire, even temporary, could allow for a surge of humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip, where it is so desperately needed. This is something we had seen in the past when there had been a pause in fighting, that they could get so much more aid into the Strip. And now, of course, that opportunity is not there.

The Israeli government has given a green light to the use of airdrops and said that they might see some drops of humanitarian aid in the coming days. But we have heard from the U.N. and from aid officials that this is not the most effective way to get that needed aid into the Strip. It is dangerous. It is costly. The last time it was used, there were fatalities there in Gaza.

And there is no way to ensure that this is going to the people who actually desperately need it. Now, the U.S. has not given a comment on the use of airdrops. And they do not have a dedicated official in place working on these Middle East humanitarian issues in the same way that the Biden administration did.

The Biden administration had appointed someone whose job was to lead those diplomatic efforts, those diplomatic talks. Now, the Trump administration says that they are engaged with Israeli officials on humanitarian issues, but, by and large, they have been putting their weight behind the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.

This is a controversial private organization that has the backing of the U.S. and Israeli governments. There have been a number of deadly incidents around their aid sites over the course of the last two months. But State Department officials say that they are the only ones who are able to stop alleged Hamas looting from happening at the aid sites.

[13:25:07]

This is what deputy spokesperson Tommy Bruce said -- Tommy Pigott -- excuse me -- said yesterday:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOMMY PIGOTT, STATE DEPARTMENT PRINCIPAL DEPUTY SPOKESPERSON: It is the dedication of this administration. That's why we have seen the 90 million meals, the support of that effort from this administration.

So, of course, we want to see as much aid getting into Gaza as possible in a way that is not being looted by Hamas. And this mechanism, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, has been a way to do that. So we're calling for additional support of that foundation to deliver that aid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANSLER: Now, it's important to note here, Brianna, I have new reporting that there is a U.S. government internal review that found no evidence of widespread Hamas looting, despite these continued claims.

The U.S. Agency for International Development looked at more than 150 incidents that were reported by partner organizations between October 2023 and May 2025, and they found that, in these incidents, it was hard to determine who exactly was responsible for the waste and looting in these cases, but they did not find evidence that there was widespread and systemic theft by Hamas in these cases -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, that's been the whole rationale for this, and NGOs have been disputing it, so that's incredibly important reporting.

Jennifer, thank you so much for bringing that to us. We appreciate it -- Jessica.

DEAN: And let's talk more about these developments with Leon Panetta. He's a former defense secretary and CIA director under President Obama.

Thank you for being here with us.

I do want to pick up right where our colleague just left off, with this brand-new reporting that this U.S. government review by USAID found no evidence of widespread Hamas theft of Gaza aid. What is your reaction to this? Because this has been the rationale around the need for this private aid distribution.

We have seen NGOs on the ground pushing back on this, saying that there is obviously such a need for aid and that there are better ways to do this. What do you think about this new reporting?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, it's important if, in fact, Hamas is not stealing the Gaza aid and not disrupting it.

But, look, this is a tragic situation. There's an awful lot of killing that's gone on. There are -- obviously a terrible humanitarian crisis that continues. The hostages are still being held. I think it's absolutely critical for the parties to agree to some kind of immediate cease-fire. That's really what has to happen here.

Get a cease-fire in place, 60 days, 90 days, allow for the exchange of hostages, the provision of humanitarian aid, and provide some degree of security, so that you can make sure that the humanitarian aid is being properly developed. All of that needs to take place, and it needs to take place soon.

DEAN: And yet, we see Steve Witkoff coming back, we see the Israelis leaving because they said Hamas just simply isn't serious about trying to get to a cease-fire. And we have seen these fits and starts throughout this entire ordeal. What is the breaking point? How do they get to what you're describing right now? Because, at this point, it just seems like they cannot get there.

PANETTA: Well, I understand that they have kind of broken off on the talks. You're not sure whether that's a break or whether that's a pause. Some of the stories that I have read and some of the people I have talked to indicate that those negotiations continue.

And they do, because, right now, the most critical approach that has to happen is to stop the killing and to stop the humanitarian deaths that are taking place. And the only way that's going to happen is with an immediate cease-fire. So the parties have to continue the effort to find a resolution here.

Put a cease-fire in place. And then there should be a second track, very frankly, that looks at, what is going to be the day-after approach to dealing with Gaza? What is going to be the governing structure? How are you going to provide security? How are you going to provide economic aid and reconstruction? How are you going to be able to develop a more permanent solution to what has been desperate situation?

DEAN: And you say a desperate situation. And, as you're speaking, I don't know if you can see or not. We have this video of these babies who are skeletons, essentially, at this point. And they are clearly very malnourished and very ill.

And now Israel has said that it has OKed the drop -- these airdrops of aid in the coming days. Those were stopped, though, previously because they were deemed costly. They were unsafe. Do you think this can help in this way? Short of a cease-fire, these children are still suffering.