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Trump Defends Firing Labor Chief; Kurt Volker is Interviewed about Russia; Complicated Search for Montana Shooter. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired August 05, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:09]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: Just moments ago, President Trump defending his decision to fire the Bureau of Labor Statistics commissioner, as we're standing by for him to announce a replacement. We also have new CNN reporting on what set him off, what happened behind the scenes before he ousted that top labor official, accusing her, without evidence, of rigging the job numbers.

CNN's Alayna Treene is at the White House now. She has this new reporting.

What more have you learned? And, Alayna, what more are we hearing from the president, just speaking moments ago?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, let me start with the second part of this, what President Trump is continuing to say this morning, because I'd remind you, this firing, of course, of the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics came Friday after that worse than expected jobs report, including some of the revisions down from previous months.

And this morning he's still talking about it, arguing it's, you know, the system is rigged, that it's political, all things that he's continue, and other officials as well, continue to argue, without any real evidence.

And it comes, of course, as we know that the president said that midweek this week, at some point in the next couple of days, he is expected to rename -- name her replacement. But I want you to listen to what he told CNBC just moments ago, Jessica.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is antiquated, but it's also very political. And, you know, I had an election recently where I did very well, won every swing state, won the popular vote, won everything, all right, won (INAUDIBLE). It's, I think, 87 percent of the counties were Republican up. That's never happened before. And yet I had to go through hell. And just days before the election, they put out numbers that it was like the country was on fire. It was doing so well.

And then they did a revision about two weeks later, and the revision was down by almost 900,000 jobs. You remember that? And I said, man --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but --

TRUMP: I said, what would have happened -- what would have happened if I lost? Think of it. I would have said --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, but --

TRUMP: They gave phony numbers, and then they revised them a week and a half later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: All right, Jessica, the reason I wanted you to listen to that is because it's so in line with the reporting that we have about what really led to this decision to oust Dr. Erika McEntarfer, the head of BLS.

So, part of it is because, as you can tell, Trump was fixated on this even before he came into office. I remember covering him on the campaign trail, and he was often railing against the job reports, particularly the revisions, and saying that they didn't seem right, OK.

And then what I was told, in the lead up and what led to this decision on Friday, was that, even though he had brought up McEntarfer's name before, given she is a Biden appointee, something the president does not like, he doesn't like having a Biden appointees in very high positions within his administration. He didn't really have any reason to try and axe her before Friday, because a lot of the jobs reports we saw in the first few months of this administration were actually very good. We saw the president and many other top officials here at the White House argue that the data in those jobs reports show that the economy was doing well.

But what really got under his skin, and this is what you're referring to about what set him off. What really got under his skin with that Friday jobs report was not necessarily the slowing of the economy and the adding of less jobs than they had anticipated, it was the revisions of the previous months that they had celebrated, May and June, that actually the number of jobs added was lower than they had previously said.

This is what one White House official told me. They said, quote, "that's what set him off. He saw the revisions and knew something was awry for it to be changed so drastically. And this isn't a first time thing, considering so many companies make decisions based off these numbers. It's an issue that needed to be fixed."

And so, like I said, this was something he had kind of been thinking about previously, but Friday is what really came to make this decision. Now I will say as well, we have some reporting that some officials

here at the White House had tried to argue with Trump, you know, sought to offer up explanations for why perhaps the economy was slowing down.

[08:35:02]

But it was Sergio Gor, one of his -- his, you know, personnel officials here in the White House, that was the one to remind him that Erika McEntarfer was a Biden appointee. So, that just gives you some insight into all of this.

Now, my latest conversations with people here at the White House, they say he has not yet made a decision on who he is going to replace her with. But again, he has promised to do so midweek.

And then just very, very quickly, Jessica. Trump did make some other news during that CNBC interview. He was talking about who he's going to try and replace Fed Chair Jerome Powell with. He said that he's taken Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent out of the running. He was someone that previously Trump had said was his top pick for that. And now he's saying it's kind of a battle of the Kevins. The White House, one economist, Kevin Warsh, someone the president is close with, but also his director of national economic council, Kevin Hassett, and some others as well.

So, stay tuned for some of that as the president continues to weigh that decision. Powell is not up until next spring.

DEAN: All right, news from the president early this morning.

Alayna Treene, from the White House, thank you so much for that.

John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, I just need to play again a little bit of what the president said, because it needs some important context. And by that I mean corrections.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Before the election they put out numbers that it was like the -- the -- the country was on fire. It was doing so well. And then they did a revision about two weeks later. And the revision was down by almost 900,000 jobs. You remember that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but --

TRUMP: And I said, man, I said, what would have happened -- what would have happened if I lost? Think of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, but --

TRUMP: I would have said they gave phony numbers, and then they revised them a week and a half later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, so that was wrong, wrong and wrong. All right, November 1st, just before the election, there was a terrible jobs report, just 12,000 jobs added. That was November 1st, just days before the election, 12,000 jobs added November 1st. Almost as bad as the two months we just had during the Trump administration, May and June. After the election, the numbers were revised upward. So, that's the second wrong. President Trump was wrong that there was a good jobs report before the election, wrong that it was revised upward. It was -- I mean downward. It was revised upward after the election.

He's also wrong about the timing of the huge revision. It came last August where they said that 800,000 fewer jobs had been added in the last year. It wasn't after the election. All of the revisions that were made, in theory, before the election last year, may very well have been in Trump's favor. So, wrong, wrong and wrong there.

With us now, CNN political commentator, host of CNN's "SMERCONISH," Michael Smerconish, who I have to say, we haven't had a chance to speak to on TV in a while. But thanks to modern technology, we look forward to speaking to you a lot more.

I want to talk about the actual revisions themselves, Michael, and how they may just change the prism. You talk to so many people every day. It paints a very different picture when you have months jobs added of 14,000 and 19,000 in May and June. And I wonder what you're hearing people say about the health of this economy, what concerns they have.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It fits a larger narrative that really concerns me about diminished faith in American institutions. Our court system, legal system writ large, politicians, law enforcement. People just don't know who they can believe and on who they can rely.

John, I was thinking something as I was watching Alayna's report, and it's -- it's this. It used to mean something if a local official would call for a federal investigation. That's it. We're going to bring in the feds. Because that signified to people, it's going to be no bull shit, because the feds, they don't play local, political games.

Those days are over. And the next time that labor numbers come out with the president's pick, who's going to believe them? I guess half the country. It's reminiscent to me of this recent situation at Smithsonian where they've now sanitized, you know, the -- the impeachment display. And people are just going to buy whatever truth suits their political objective.

I -- I -- it's not a one off. This is part of a much larger and very serious problem.

BERMAN: All right, Michael, just before we came to air, I was reading a report from "Punchbowl News" that the vice president, J.D. Vance, may be headed to Indiana shortly. The reason I'm saying that is because he may be headed there to talk about redistricting. Indiana, right, now has a map that seven Republicans, two Democrats. Some Republicans think they can get it up as high as nine-zero. So, talk to me about this -- these mid-decade redistricting fights, this battle that the Republicans may have just launched.

SMERCONISH: So, I don't like it. That won't surprise you. I just don't like the polarization and partisanship that comes from it.

My first reaction, when this issue arose just a couple of weeks ago, was to say, wait a minute, can they do that?

[08:40:01]

Don't we have to wait every ten years? And now we know they can do it.

I have to say, I think Republicans, and I'm -- I'm not applauding this, far from it, but I think Republicans have an added benefit because a lot of the blue states have already gone through a so-called reform process. Governor Schwarzenegger deserves a lot of credit for professionalizing this process in California.

So, to those who are thinking, well, if -- if the Republicans do this in Texas, then Democrats will respond in kind in California or in New York or some other blue state. I don't think it's going to be that simple. I don't like it. It sets off a mutually assured destruction that's not in the country's best interest.

BERMAN: Don't the Democrats have to dive in, though? If Republicans pull this off in Texas, what would happen if Republicans -- if Democrats just said, sorry, you know, we're not going to play here. We're going to stick with these redistricting commissions.

SMERCONISH: I agree with you. I don't think, politically speaking, that they have any choice. I'm just trying to say that I -- I don't think that they're going to be effective. And the second thing that I would point out is that as -- as much of a problem as gerrymandering has been historically in this country, as you and I have discussed previously, John, we have an equal issue of self-sorting, which has nothing to do with politicians redrawing boundary lines. But, frankly, the like-minded, via the internet especially, but now even living among one another landslide counties and we don't change the boundary lines of counties are significantly on the rise. Again, part of a much larger troublesome narrative.

BERMAN: The question -- one question I have, and I think we have a little bit of a sound from a Republican town hall that took place yesterday. Mike Flood, a Republican from Nebraska, in a plus 13 Trump district there. I just want to play a little bit of sound when he talked about what Republicans stand for, and you can hear the response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE FLOOD (R-NE): The -- the Republican Party, now more than ever, represents the heart and soul of the working class.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: So, there were a lot of boos there in a Trump plus 13 district, Michael.

I guess my question is, with redistricting happening here, even if the Republicans can pick up five seats in Texas, what do you think the impact will be on the election? What would be the most animating issues heading into 2026? I know we've got a year to go, but what are you seeing and hearing?

SMERCONISH: The economy, I think, is -- is always, you know, we'll go back to where we were just a few minutes ago. I think, first and foremost, I buy into what James Carville has always said. I think in many respects it will be a referendum on President Trump, both good and bad, good in red states, bad in in blue states.

I, you know, looking at the historical trends, it's the party that's outside of power, that would be the Democratic Party, that would seem to have an advantage, which is the explanation as to why, under pressure from President Trump, Governor Abbott is trying to do what he's doing in Texas.

Bottom line, advantage Democrats, as things stand now, unless this move can make up a margin.

BERMAN: Yes. And again, in how far they push it to which other states.

Michael Smerconish, so great to see you again. Look forward to talking to you again soon.

All right, Russia announces it will no longer abide by a landmark missile treaty as President Trump's envoy gets ready to meet with Russian leaders in Moscow.

Travelers at Atlanta's airport met with a sloppy surprise. A ceiling collapse sends kind of gross brown water rushing, gushing through the floors.

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[08:47:48]

DEAN: New this morning, tensions with Russia are escalating as the Kremlin denounced the U.S. for pressuring India to cut oil imports from Russia, saying Moscow does not consider such threats to be legitimate. It comes as President Trump's foreign envoy is preparing to head to Moscow tomorrow to push for a peace deal with Ukraine.

And joining us now is former U.S. ambassador to NATO, Kurt Volker. He's also a former U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations in the first Trump administration.

It's great to have you here with us this morning.

President Trump has given Putin until Friday to stop the war or face economic sanctions. Steve Witkoff is headed, as we just noted, to Russia (INAUDIBLE) KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Left no choice

(INAUDIBLE) because Russia has continued these deadly attacks on Ukraine in spite of President Trump's calls for a ceasefire. So, President Trump really, I think, is losing patience and he's trying to give Putin one more chance.

Putin will not take that chance. Putin will try to do something else. He'll try to deflect. He'll try to drag out this timeline. He may offer something insignificant, like a -- a phone call with Zelenskyy or a phone call with Zelenskyy and Trump, or maybe another meeting in Istanbul. But on the fundamental issue of stopping the war, Putin is not going to do it.

DEAN: Yes, and you didn't even hesitate. You just said Putin's not going to do it. It's -- it's -- it's a known situation it seems like at this point to anyone with any expertise or experience in this area. And so my question is, then what do you do, because so many experts have said Trump and the administration need to apply more pressure to Putin, much like these sanctions that he's now threatening. Do you agree that's -- that's something that could move Putin?

VOLKER: Well, I agree that that is the right next step. What is necessary here is to go after Putin, both financially so that it is more and more difficult for him to get the money he needs to continue the war.

[08:50:01]

That means targeting the oil and gas exports and the sanctions avoidance that they're going through right now. That can be done through these secondary tariffs that Trump is talking about, but also sanctions directly on companies that are trading with Russia.

The other thing is to make it clear to Putin that the military support for Ukraine will continue without interruption. And that's something that Trump has already taken steps on with his meeting with Mark Rutte, the NATO secretary general at the White House a couple weeks ago. He's created a pathway for NATO countries to buy American weapons and ammunition and provide them to Ukraine. And that pathway is open. We could be doing more to reinforce that as well, for example, by having NATO help Ukraine directly with air defense.

DEAN: And if Friday comes and Putin doesn't -- doesn't stop the fighting, maybe he offers like what you are saying, some of these other -- other things that he can dangle but doesn't do what Trump is asking him to do, and President Trump doesn't follow through on his threat, what does that mean?

VOLKER: Well, as with many things here, this -- what Putin wants to do is play things out to the very last moment. And if he does that and Trump does not follow through, then that serves Putin's interest because it makes Trump look weak and unreliable, which is the image that Putin wants the world to have of Trump. And so, it's very important for Trump's own sake that he actually follow through on his own words.

DEAN: All right, Ambassador Kurt Volker, always great to have you. Thanks so much.

The suspected gunman in the killing of four people at a Montana bar remains on the run as the search for their whereabouts grows complicated with each passing day. We're going to bring you the latest on that when we return.

And evacuation orders are now in effect in southern California as the state's second largest wildfire this year simply explodes in size, setting ablaze tens of thousands of acres.

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[08:55:56]

DEAN: Happening now, evacuations are underway along California's central coast as the Gifford Fire spreads. It's now burned more than 72,000 acres across two counties in just five days. At least three people have been injured. Nearly 2,000 firefighters are now on the ground. It's the second largest wildfire in California this year.

This morning, "The New York Times" is reporting the acting administrator of NASA has issued a directive to fast track efforts to put a nuclear reactor on the moon. "Politico" was the first to publish that report. In the internal memo, Secretary Sean Duffy suggests China and Russia are planning to put a reactor on the moon by the mid 2030s as part of a partnership to build a base there. And Duffy now calls for a NASA administrator to head to an American reactor effort and have that ready to launch in 2029.

And caught on camera, a very gross, very disgusting moment at Atlanta's airport. Yes, just brown water gushing from the ceiling, causing part of that ceiling to collapse. Airport officials say the mess has been cleaned up. The cause of the leak is under investigation. Happy flying to everyone there.

John.

BERMAN: An oasis of joy at the Atlanta airport.

DEAN: Uh-huh. Yes.

BERMAN: All right, new this morning, the search for a man suspected of gunning down four people at a bar in Montana is getting more complicated by the day. Rugged terrain in the wilderness and the search area making it tough for crews to track down this army veteran.

CNN's Josh Campbell has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For a fourth day, authorities scoured the rugged Montana wilderness by land and air, searching for a suspected mass shooter.

AUSTIN KNUDSEN, MONTANA ATTORNEY GENERAL: We've got a lot of expertise, and a lot of knowledge of the area. We've got every -- every cabin, every -- every hunting site that's known up there pinned. And -- and there was a -- there is a tremendous number of assets focused on searching that area.

DAN BRUNNER, RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT, BOZEMAN, MONTANA: One of the restrictions is the -- the size of the state of the state.

CAMPBELL (voice over): The mountainous terrain and vast wildlands in this remote part of the state are offering their own challenges.

BRUNNER: So, that's a lot of land and a lot -- not a lot of people. So, there's not a lot of civilians that will be looking out their window, looking for a suspicious person. This man could easily hide for multiple, multiple weeks if he had resources prepared for himself.

CAMPBELL (voice over): The suspect, who officials believe is, quote, "well armed and extremely dangerous," is 45-year-old Michael Paul Brown, seen shirtless and shoeless on security footage fleeing The Owl Bar on Friday morning. Authorities say Brown lived next door to the bar and was a frequent patron. He was last seen driving a white Ford F-150 pickup that they say was later found abandoned.

KNUDSEN: It was a stolen vehicle, but there was camping equipment in it. We believe there was some clothing in it. So, we, at this point, we have every reason to believe the suspect is fully clothed, shoes on his feet, able to get around.

CAMPBELL (voice over): As the search continues, new details about the suspect are emerging. Brown served in the Army from January 2001 to May 2005, and was part of an armored vehicle crew. He was deployed to Iraq from February 2004 to March 2005, later joining the Montana National Guard for just under three years, leaving military service as a sergeant.

Brown's niece telling CNN in a Facebook message that he struggled with mental health in the Army and wasn't the same after his service, noting his condition worsened after his parents died.

The Army declined to release information about Brown's mental health history, citing policy and privacy constraints.

KNUDSEN: This is an unstable individual who walked in and murdered four people in cold blood for no reason whatsoever. So, there absolutely is concern for the public.

CAMPBELL (voice over): A town now on edge and in mourning for four lives lost in the mass shooting, including Nancy Kelley, who recently retired from a career as a nurse working with cancer patients.

Josh Campbell, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[09:00:00]

DEAN: The Texas governor orders the arrest of Democratic lawmakers for fleeing the state as Democrats declare war over the GOP effort to redraw the state's congressional map.