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Trump-Putin Meeting Will No Longer be a One-on-One, Rubio and Witkoff Will Now Attend with President Trump. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired August 15, 2025 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: That he was talking to his wife, First Lady Melania Trump, about how he had just had a very nice conversation with Putin, and he thought it went really well, and that the First Lady said he just bombed a senior center. Putin just bombed a senior center. Like basically saying what he just told you is not resulting in any action. He's blowing smoke.

And that's when Trump used the word bullshit to describe what Putin had been telling him. I thought that was a very stark and personal moment.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, look, I think the frustration is real. It is true that President Trump has, and I think some of it is embarrassment. I think some of it is the fact that he made these promises that he hasn't been able to keep because of the Russian president.

TAPPER: So the point is his wife is seeing --

HOLMES: Right and saying look what he just did. You know, I'm watching this on TV. This guy is all talk. And again, these are things that experts, that former presidents, have been saying

TAPPER: For a decades.

HOLMES: For decades about Putin. But it's the first time President Trump has realized it.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Although each of them had to learn it themselves, right? Bush saw into his soul until he was disappointed in the invasion of Georgia. Obama and Hillary Clinton tried to reset until that blew up.

Biden, I mean, we were there in Geneva when Biden had the face-to-face with Putin and thought that they had come to some sort of agreement. And a few months later, Putin invades Ukraine. So perhaps Trump, in the first six months of his second term, has learned that same lesson that several previous presidents have.

TAPPER: Well, look, every single president has the ego to think that only they can rule the free world. Whether it's Bill Clinton, who said this is a man I can do business with, about a former KGB colonel. All the way through Donald Trump. They all have the ego to think that and they all have convinced the American people to put them in office. What's so tough about this one guy from this third-rate country? And yet, every time, Putin says whatever he says and then does whatever he does.

HOLMES: And look, again, I think that we cannot overstate how important it is there's not going to be a one-on-one meeting now with just Putin and Trump. Because part of this was that Trump, again, has said for years that he and Putin have this kind of special relationship.

Here, he is essentially saying, no, this is a deal-making scenario and I'm bringing two other people here. This isn't just about you and me. And also, it will cause a lot of people to take a sigh of relief, to breathe a sigh of relief, because there are still concerns that he could charm Trump again.

TAPPER: But let's also remember, in terms of negotiation, it is always good, if you are Donald Trump and you are trying to charm Vladimir Putin, who is in the midst of trying to charm you, to have a bad cop there. To have Marco Rubio. Somebody that Donald Trump can say, oh, I don't know, I'm with you, but Marco here.

You know, that's useful in terms of negotiation.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, Trump has said that he would walk away if he doesn't hear, even as quickly as in the first few minutes, what he wants to hear. Or hear genuine progress from Vladimir Putin.

TAPPER: And a ceasefire.

SCIUTTO: A ceasefire and genuine willingness to make a deal. And I don't think we should eliminate that possibility, because you remember, if you go back to the Trump-Kim summits in the first administration, of course, there were three of those. In the final one in Vietnam, Trump didn't hear what he wanted to hear.

He didn't get enough movement from the North Korean leader and said, we're not going to make a deal here. I'm going to head out. I'm going to head out. It's possible.

Now, he could hear something positive in those first few minutes and we have a different outcome.

TAPPER: And there's also, I mean, the institutional knowledge of a Marco Rubio. And a Steve Witkoff to know that Reagan was only able to achieve the peace he was able to achieve with Gorbachev after walking away. He walked away at Reykjavik and therefore was able to come back later and put Gorbachev on the spot.

Anderson Cooper, a very, very fascinating turn of events.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It certainly is. I want to turn to our panel. Ambassador Bolton, you were the surprised. Jill Dougherty, you were fascinated by Kaitlan's reporting. What do you -- how do you interpret this? JOHN BOLTON, FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Well, I'd like to know if the Russians have been consulted on this point and if they've agreed to it. It could well be that they're going to find out when their plane arrives or they're being told now this is what Trump wants. I suspect that Putin will agree to it because it's this is not the place to pick pick a quarrel over arrangements.

But it definitely puts a different spin.

COOPER: Do you think they would have announced it if they hadn't consulted with Russia?

BOLTON: I think it's entirely possible so the people know about it so that we're talking about it right now.

COOPER: So the Russians can't change it or can't say it.

BOLTON: Makes it harder. I would think that's right.

COOPER: Why were you so --?

JILL DOUGHERTY, FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Totally different dynamics. I think the advantage to Putin is to sit down there right across from, you know.

COOPER: You think a one on one with President Trump is more advantageous. So this actually you think would be a good strategic move by President Trump.

DOUGHERTY: Correct. And he also gets, you know, two people on his side. The negotiator who's been in Moscow who knows some of the issues.

And then Rubio who does know, I think, quite a few of the issues on a deeper -- in a different fashion and can help the president.

RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Right. If this is an audible in which they didn't consult the Russians. I would not be surprised in the meeting somewhere.

[14:35:00]

Putin says I like to talk to you one on one and reverses the play. There's no way he's going to allow an audible totally. And I agree.

He's not going to have a fight about this. But there's a lot of different plays. This is not a one game. This is this is play -- this is scene one of a lot of plays and sections of this play.

So my guess is somewhere in here, he says, I'd like to take a walk with you. And then all of a sudden you get your one on one.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: So just real quick on that. I think I've done that. The very first time in Trump's administration at the G20 in Hamburg when they were at a dinner and Putin and Trump talked for what I think was reportedly an hour at a dinner. But it was a one on one interaction between the two of them --

COOPER: With only I believe the Russian translator.

PHILLIP: -- with only a Russian. So I just think you're totally right. Like this is what is happening in the moment.

But we got a lot of hours ahead.

COOPER: Ambassador Bolton, would you agree with with Rom?

BOLTON: Yes, I don't know. I don't think there's any question about it. I think Putin will be smooth about this at the beginning.

They'll have a conversation. Maybe it will be largely about Ukraine. And then before they get to anything else, Putin will say, well, great I'm glad we had this opportunity to hear from our colleagues. Now, why don't you and I talk?

COOPER: So what do you do if you're for Donald Trump in that case?

BOLTON: I think he would be hard pressed to say no. If he wants -- if he wants to make progress with Putin, they're going to have a one on one in there somewhere.

COOPER: What role does Marco Rubio, you think, playing on this?

EMANUEL: Well, I think there will be a you got two people. And I think Rubio will be on one shoulder, tugging him hard and pulling him more to understand and be more skeptical, more cynical, more jaundiced about what the Russians are saying --

BOLTON: But what does it say about Putin.

EMANUEL: I don't know how much influence he will have, but all the indications are he has an influence and he's been changed the president's view.

BOLTON: I will say in these meetings with Trump, he likes to talk. He may turn to Rubio or he may turn to Witkoff. I'd be surprised if they're interrupting him. And I'll virtually guarantee that Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister, and probably Yury Ushakov, his diplomatic advisor, will not talk unless Putin tells him to.

COOPER: And I do -- I want to go back to CNN's Kaitlan Collins in Anchorage.

Kaitlan, have you heard through your reporting whether or not the Russians were consulted on this?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR: I just texted a White House official to ask if they were consulted or if they've been informed now that it is not going to be a one on one. We haven't heard back yet. They're literally just landing right now as this flight obviously has arrived here in Alaska. So that remains to be seen.

But I'll tell you, Anderson, when I asked this question the other day at the briefing to Karoline Leavitt, if they plan to meet one on one, she quickly said that yes, that they would be. And obviously, a one on one typically means just the two leaders and also translators in the room.

And yes, they've done that multiple times before. But obviously, it has added significance given what these two leaders are sitting down to talk about. And so it is really notable that they are changing that format and announcing it now on the way over here to say that there will be other officials inside the room with the president.

I will also say one thing, given Ambassador Bolton is sitting there as well. I do also think it reflects how Trump feels about the people who are around him this time around and that he feels more comfortable that they are in alignment with his view on the world and on foreign policy and what he's pursuing here. Because obviously before, you know, it was Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and H.R. McMaster and other officials that he did not always see eye to eye on and sometimes says are his biggest mistakes in the first term.

And I'll just note, Anderson, as we're looking at what the structure of this is going to look like, a White House official did say that after that three on three meeting is going to happen, then it will be that expanded meeting that's going to have the Treasury Secretary, the Commerce Secretary, the chief of staff also there inside the room with the president.

COOPER: All right Kaitlan, thanks. I want to turn now to how this moment is playing in Russia. Senator Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow.

What do you make of this new meeting format, which is certainly a shakeup for the Americans and the Russians?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I certainly think that Vladimir Putin is going to be able to deal with it. One of the things, of course, that we've been seeing is that he and his closest team that you guys have been talking about as well, they're pretty much on one page. If you look at, as Ambassador John Bolton was just saying, for instance, Yury Ushakov, senior Kremlin aide, he's been in the Kremlin literally for decades. And there's barely anyone who's closer to Vladimir Putin than Yury Ushakov.

So certainly they'd be able to deal with a new format. They certainly would also be able to deal maybe with a U.S. administration official who's more skeptical about what the Russians are saying than, for instance, if President Trump was in the room with Vladimir Putin alone.

One of the things that the Russians have been projecting over the past couple of days is how diligently Vladimir Putin has been preparing for this summit. In fact, it was just yesterday that he was pictured with some of the most senior officials in a room, including the defense minister, including Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister Yury Ushakov as well, going through some of the topics that the Russians are going to be wanting to talk about.

And I think what you guys are saying is absolutely correct. Obviously, the Russians will want to try to widen this whole thing, going from Ukraine to other topics as well. But they do realize that Ukraine is going to be by far the most important topic and that President Trump is going to want some sort of result there. He's going to want something from the Russians.

The Russians, from their perspective, of course, have been very clear about how they feel about things. They say that instead of an immediate ceasefire, which is something that they've pretty much rejected over the past couple of months since President Trump has been in office and floated that idea. They say they want a longer-term negotiations process with a wider deal at the end of it during which, of course, the fighting on the ground would continue. The Russians, of course, at this point in time, feel that they're doing quite well on the battlefield.

And one thing that I think is also important is that as Vladimir Putin goes into this, the Russians have been saying that they have been making gains on the battlefield, accelerated gains over the past days. So he does feel, from a military perspective, he is in a pretty strong position at this point.

COOPER: Fred Pleitgen, we'll check in with you in Moscow later on. Thanks very much. I want to go back to Jake in Anchorage -- Jake.

TAPPER: Jake? Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Anderson.

Let's talk more with my panel now. There's a lot of stuff that has to do with the tea-leaf reading of all this, right? The other day, Vladimir Putin said that he was giving -- he gave credit to Donald Trump for his sincere and enthusiastic efforts at peace.

Now, to common folk like me and our viewers, perhaps that sounds like a compliment. That's nice. But then I heard Kurt Volker, a professional diplomat who worked for Democratic and Republican administrations, say on CNN that that actually sounded patronizing to him.

So there's a lot of the mechanics of this, whether it's the language or the staging. We know that Vladimir Putin once kept Donald Trump waiting like an hour in Helsinki, was it? Or somewhere.

And once he kept Angela Merkel, the then-Chancellor of Germany, waiting for like four hours. There's a lot of head games and language stuff that like diplomatic experts are going to be here to interpret for us.

SCIUTTO: One thing I've heard from European officials is this talk in the last 24, 48 hours from Putin about expanding this to a potential nuclear deal. Let's reset U.S.-Russia relations, that they fear that that is a negotiating tactic as well to deliberately divert Trump's attention away from the war in Ukraine. The ongoing war, which Russia is still pummeling every day, civilians, etc. To something bigger and say, we're, you know, we're serious men. We're powerful men. We control a large part of the world. Let's talk about something bigger. And, you know, this Ukraine thing is small potatoes, effectively. They worry that that is intended in part to divert attention away from there.

Again, this is all about setting up the negotiations.

TAPPER: And you could certainly see Donald Trump being convinced, oh, that's even a bigger deal.

HOLMES: Yes.

TAPPER: Like thinking, oh, great, even better. We can get weapons involved in this and we can get this and that. And that sounds better.

But diplomats, to the point you just made, might think, no, no, no, no. That's actually a diversionary tactic by, again, a KGB mastermind.

HOLMES: Well, I think that one of the things to keep in mind here is just what we've seen from Vladimir Putin and from President Trump. I mean, it's clear that somebody is in President Trump's ear telling him that some of this stuff is a diversion, telling him that he is using various things as a negotiating tactic. I mean, even on the plane earlier today, President Trump said that he believed that the reason Putin kept bombing Ukraine was because it would help him at the negotiating table, because clearly someone is saying to Trump, you know, he's going to keep pushing you and pushing you because he wants you to tell him to stop.

TAPPER: Not just someone -- it's a great observation. But let me just add to it an amendment. Not just someone in his ear, someone he's listening to.

HOLMES: Right.

TAPPER: Because he's had people in his ear before --

HOLMES: Right.

TAPPER: -- especially in his first term, people that he didn't necessarily know or trust. And now he's got his own team. Anyway, fascinating observations from you two.

Joining us now, Republican congressman from New York, Mike Lawler, who sits on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

What do you make of this breaking news that Kaitlan Collins just told us that as of right now, it is no longer going to be on the schedule for a Trump-Putin one-on-one.

Trump is going to go into this meeting with Steve Witkoff, his envoy, and Marco Rubio, who is his secretary of state and national security advisor. REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Well, I think it's important. And I think it's the right decision. I don't think Vladimir Putin deserves that one-on-one, frankly.

And I think they need to get down to brass tacks. This should really not be about pleasantries. It should be about addressing the very serious situation in Ukraine and trying to come to a ceasefire agreement so that a larger peace deal can be negotiated with the Ukrainians to end this conflict.

[14:45:00]

And I think, obviously, Secretary Rubio and Special Envoy Witkoff have been dealing with the day-to-day minutia on this for months. And so having them as part of the conversation, I think, is important. I think the president is right to push for this conversation. We saw, obviously, during the first three years of this conflict, not speaking to Putin, didn't stop anything, it didn't solve anything.

Whether we like it or not, he is the president of Russia. I happen to believe he's a vile dictator and thug. But we do have to engage him if this conflict is going to come to an end.

TAPPER: Do you have any issues with this summit taking place in the United States? There are those in the diplomatic community and critics of President Trump who say this is basically inviting a vile dictator and thug, in your terminology, to America, to rolling out the red carpet for somebody who is a war criminal, according to the International Criminal Court.

LAWLER: Obviously, with the United Nations in New York City, we often see people coming to the United States who don't exactly have the most stellar records. But I think it is important to do this, frankly, in U.S. territory. And Vladimir Putin coming to the United States to meet with the president and to engage in a serious discussion about the situation in Ukraine and some of the larger issues.

I think one of the things that's important to recognize here, you can't look at these things in silos, OK -- Russia and Ukraine, Iran, China. We have seen over the last few years this unholy alliance between those three countries in particular.

And you can throw North Korea into the mix as well, obviously, as they have sent bodies to support Russia during this war in Ukraine. And you saw Iran sending drones to support Russia. All of this has to be looked at through the prism of how do we bring about stability around the globe. How do we end these conflicts?

I think President Trump is very serious about that. Thus far, what we have seen in his first nearly eight months in office is that many of these long-term conflicts that have raged in parts around the globe are coming to an end.

And if we can start to bring this situation in Ukraine to an end, that is a positive step, especially when you look at what has happened in the Middle East. You know, the strike against Iran's nuclear facilities, Russia did not get involved in that. The collapse of Assad's regime in Syria, Russia has not sought to get involved there.

I don't know that that would have been the case if we were taking a different tact towards Putin. So some of this you have to look at in context of all of the conflicts that are happening around the globe. China is a major threat that we have to deal with and contain.

The faster we get this situation in Ukraine resolved while maintaining Ukraine's structural sovereignty, and I think that's important here, you know, this is going to be hopefully a positive step forward.

TAPPER: Ukrainian military officials are obviously very skeptical of Vladimir Putin and they tell CNN that they believe this meeting will, quote, end in nothing, unquote. What do you expect to come from this meeting? Obviously we all hope for a long-term just peace deal, but what do you actually think is going to happen?

LAWLER: Look, I think there needs to be a very blunt, direct conversation. It's why I think having Secretary Rubio and Special Envoy Witkoff in there to really delve into the facts are critical here. And ultimately, hopefully, you come out of this with a ceasefire and a path forward to a peace negotiation that has to involve Ukraine and Ukrainian officials, including President Zelenskyy.

That is critical, but you have to get to a place where you can have those negotiations. A temporary ceasefire will allow for that.

I think if Putin is not serious, if Putin does not take concrete steps today to start to bring this conflict to an end, then I think the United States needs to take serious actions with respect to secondary sanctions. I support legislation to that effect.

I think the United States, obviously the President has talked about 50 percent tariffs on Russia, and I think the Europeans need to take very clear steps to stop purchasing Russian gas.

[14:50:00]

If there is not going to be progress, then the consequences certainly economically must be devastating for Putin moving forward.

TAPPER: Congressman Mike Lawler, Republican from New York, thanks so much, really appreciate it.

Air Force One is now on the ground here in Alaska. We're waiting on Vladimir Putin's plane to arrive momentarily.

We'll be right back after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:55:00]

TAPPER: You're looking at live pictures now of Air Force One on the ground at Air Base Elmendorf-Richardson here outside Anchorage, Alaska. President Trump is expected to descend those steps at any moment. We are also expecting, at any moment, Russian President Vladimir Putin's arrival.

The two leaders expected to meet on the red carpet. We believe a Russian plane just landed, but we are waiting for confirmation as to whose it was.

Then, of course, the critical moment. The meeting between President Trump and Russian leader Putin originally billed as a one-on-one, but we have learned from the White House, Kaitlan Collins reported not long ago, that it actually will be a three-on-three. And President Trump will be joined by his special envoy Steve Witkoff, who has had many dealings with Putin, as well as President Trump's Secretary of State and National Security Advisor Marco Rubio.

Let's get right to CNN's Fred Pleitgen, who joins us now from Moscow, Russia, who's getting some new reporting from the Kremlin about who will be joining Putin in that three-on-three -- Fred.

PLEITGEN: Hi there, Jake. Yes, and I was actually in touch with the Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, who I believe is already on the ground there in Anchorage, and I asked him who will be on the Russian side when that meeting takes place, as President Trump obviously is now saying that this is a three-on-three.

And he confirmed to me that the people who are going to be in the room with Vladimir Putin is going to be the Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and the senior Kremlin aide Yury Ushakov. Of course, both of them very seasoned politicians. Sergey Lavrov, of course, has been the Russian Foreign Minister for an extremely long time.

Yury Ushakov also has been with Vladimir Putin, close to Vladimir Putin, for an extremely long time as well, Jake.

One of the interesting things about it is that you guys were mentioning that Steve Witkoff is going to be in the room for the U.S. side. That would have maybe led to the conclusion that possibly Kirill Dmitriev, who of course is the head of the Russian Direct Investment Fund and was pretty much always the point person for Witkoff on the ground when he was here in Moscow, would have been part of the meeting as well.

The Russians now saying that is not the case. It's going to be Ushakov and Lavrov. Again, both of them, of course, people who have been with Vladimir Putin for a very long time and both of them, of course, who are very well-versed in dealing with high-pressure situations and very much, of course, also know the ins and outs of all the things that Vladimir Putin will want to achieve at this meeting -- Jake.

TAPPER: Fred Pleitgen in Moscow, standby. Thank you so much. Let's go to CNN's Nick Paton Walsh who is in Kyiv, Ukraine for us. And Nick, just hours ago, Russian missiles hit multiple areas in Ukraine, civilian areas.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, I mean, that's no let-up from the Daily Horrors at all. We've had less attacks over the past two weeks since late last month. 31 people were killed by one single missile. But across the country, the bombardment frankly continues. Seven killed in the last 24 hours, two policemen in the Donetsk region, a civilian killed in Dnipro as well.

Look, I'm just seeing their images of what looks like a red carpet that Vladimir Putin will most likely walk down.

I spoke to a European diplomat earlier today when reports of that first emerged about the idea of Putin being given this red carpet welcome, and that diplomat said, given the horrors that Putin inflicts daily on Ukraine, that kind of treatment, that kind of welcome, will be quite hard to stomach.

I should also tell you, we've just had reactions separately from a European official about that change in the meeting format, going from one-to-one to three-on-three. That official described that development as a relief, said that it was probably reassuring.

Obviously, there had been concerns that Putin might, alone with Trump, be able to drag him fast back towards the Russian narrative. But heightened anxiety here, Jake, about the outcome of this, where you are pretty much as far away from the Ukraine conflict as one can get. No Ukrainians there.

Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian President, clear today about the stakes here, but also reminding people of how he's had to reinforce an erosion of their positions on the front line, a vital one, near Pokrovsk. How? He's getting intelligence reports saying how Russia is not preparing for peace. They're preparing for further military offensives.

And also, too, reminding everybody how much they're relying upon the United States here. Breath held here because of the massive stakes, not just for the future of Ukraine, but European security, too -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, CNN's Nick Paton Walsh in Kyiv, Ukraine. Stand by.

Let's go to CNN's chief White House correspondent and anchor, Kailan Collins, who is at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson.

And Kailan, as you were the first to tell us, elements of this meeting keep changing, even in just the last hour.

END