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DA: More Than Anything, the Shooter Wanted to Kill Children; CDC Staffers Hold Send-Off Ceremony After Top Officials Resign; Ousted CDC Chief Clashed with RFK Jr Before Removal; Minneapolis in Mourning After 2 Children Killed in School Shooting. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired August 28, 2025 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: ... to another hospital outside the jurisdiction but is now safe. But the overall headline here for everyone out there, the horror that this person was targeting children, wanted to see children suffer. The depraved individual idolized previous mass shooters and school shooters as well and had fantasized about the plans that he had.

I want to bring in John Miller and Jillian Peterson to the conversation here to unpack a little bit more of what we heard, because one of the big questions that law enforcement have had to grapple with is the question surrounding advance notice, red flags, and beyond. A big question was, due to his previous social media posts, why was he able to obtain any weapons and any criminal history or contact with police that would have alerted authorities so he could not have obtained the weapons that he did?

John, I'll begin with you on this in terms of the reporting that we're hearing. That's a big part of the law enforcement's investigation, what was known, what could have been known, and where they stand today. Describe what you're looking for.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, a couple of things. Number one, in obtaining the weapons, he goes through what they call a NICS check, N-I-C-S. It goes to the National Information Center that the FBI runs, National Criminal Background Check Center, and, you know, they would scan for, has he been arrested? Is there an order of protection? Has he been charged with domestic violence?

But they don't scan for what people look at on the internet, and absent somebody from the outside calling in to the FBI tip line and flagging this person, that wouldn't come up either in the ATF form that you fill out or the computerized FBI background check.

This is one of those things in a First Amendment environment where they don't ask questions about political positions or online activity. It's strictly, are you legally prohibited by any of the standards that would make you disqualified? And he wasn't.

And we have found that among so many of the shooters. Just think of the shooter from New York City who came from Las Vegas. He had been twice put on mental health holds in emergency rooms by police there but was still issued a permit because no court adjudicated him to be mentally ill or a danger to himself or others. This is part of the system that we have to be looking at.

What did I pick up from the press conference? 116 shell casings recovered on the ground, outside that church, from the rifle.

That means, Laura Coates, that he basically went through a 30-round-

COATES: Also a gun that malfunctioned, by the way, too. One of the guns malfunctioned.

MILLER: Right, so he went through the equivalent of four magazines of ammunition, reloading multiple times with that rifle. Transitioned to the shotgun, and we know from our press conference with the emergency room people today that there were children wounded by shotgun blasts. Three shells from that found on the ground.

And the pistol, which as you point out, had a live round on the ground because it malfunctioned. He had to clear that jam in order to fire it again, which is likely the weapon he used to take his own life. I say that because it doesn't seem to be part of the main attack.

And in the video, he points to a pistol, a different pistol, and says, you know, this one is for me, indicating, I guess, I'm sorry -- foreshadowing, if you will, that the shooter intended to take his own life with the handgun. But it appears that to do that, he had to clear a jam in that weapon.

COATES: 116 rifle rounds, reloading. I mean, John, just describe the eerie nature of that is unbelievable. And we heard from the acting U.S. attorney here in Minnesota, Jake Thompson, that they believe that the threat died with the shooter yesterday, and that the person acted alone, but they will leave no stone unturned to figure out the full breadth of their investigation and be thorough.

Jillian Peterson, you are a professor of criminology. I want to get your brain focused specifically on the profile that is being described here. They described this person as somebody who had pure hate in their heart. He hated blacks, Mexicans, Christians, Jews, Trump.

There was one group he did not hate, though. He did not hate school shooters or mass shooters. There was an idolization of them. There was a deranged fascination with previous mass shootings. What can you take from that in terms of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies trying to create a profile with an eye towards deterrence in the future?

[14:35:10]

JILLIAN PETERSON, PROFESSOR OF CRIMINOLOGY, HAMLINE UNIVERSITY: Yes, we see this again and again among school shooters, is that they study the previous shooters, they idolize them, they see themselves, and they almost want to be a part of this community. They want their name to be known in connection with these previous shooters. They're typically angry, isolated, suicidal men who see this as a way to kind of force the world to see their pain, to read their manifesto. They're looking to make these big headlines.

So, I mean, it's actually, as horrific as this was, it's kind of a miracle that more children didn't die when you think about how many rounds he was firing. He was trying to kill as many people as possible to get this message of hatred out to the world.

COATES: It's really stunning to think about, as the chief described it, the heinous and cowardly act, slaughtering by a shooter who could not even see them.

Thank you both to you all. We have so much more ahead, including more revelations from that press conference, the number of rounds that were shot, the victims that are still in the hospital with varying degrees of conditions, from safe to critical.

Our minds are on what's happening behind me here at the Annunciation School. The first week of school, now scarred.

[15:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Right now CDC staffers in Atlanta are showing their support amid major upheaval at the agency. This is video from moments ago just outside CDC headquarters. They're holding a send-off ceremony just hours after several leaders were escorted out of the building.

The four officials resigned yesterday after the White House abruptly fired the CDC's director, and some of them spoke to that crowd just moments ago. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DEBRA HOURY, FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, CDC: We are heartbroken to have left, but we had to do it. We love you all. We will do what it takes now to be on the other side, to support public health.

There's so much going on right now, and you look at the devastation that's happening to our staff, our campus, the programs. We won't forget you. We're just now going to really advocate for the great work you all do.

DR. DAN JERNIGAN, FORMER DIR, NATIONAL CENTER FOR EMERGING AND ZOONOTIC INFECTIOUS DISEASES: What makes us great at CDC is following the science and so let's get the politics out of public health.

CROWD: Yes!

(CHEERING)

JERNIGAN: Let's get back to the objectivity and let the science lead us, because that's how we get to the best decisions for public health.

DR. DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES: What makes CDC great are the people that make CDC up, the scientists, everyone that makes this a family, and it's a family that defends our country and the health of our children and the health of adults. Whether it's because of vaccines, whether it's preventing overdose, chronic disease, stopping Ebola at its source, rather than let it come to this continent. You are the people that protect America, and America needs to see that you are the people that protect America, and we are going to be your loudest advocates.

(CHEERING)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Let's discuss with Dr. David Shulkin. He was the Veterans Affairs Secretary during President Trump's first term. Dr. Shulkin, thanks so much for being with us. What's your reaction to this upheaval at the CDC? Are you concerned?

DR. DAVID SHULKIN, FORMER VETERANS AFFAIRS SECRETARY UNDER TRUMP: Well, not only am I concerned, but I'm certainly, you know, really disappointed. I think that this is an agency that we need to all rely upon, we need to have confidence in. And the actions that are being taken, both with the large number of employees that have left, about 25 percent of the employees since the beginning of the year have now turned over and have left the organization. And with leadership leaving, it only adds to the lack of trust that the American public has in this agency.

SANCHEZ: Our understanding is that Dr. Monarez clashed with Secretary Kennedy specifically over vaccine policy, and this apparent impending announcement that seeks to draw links between immunizations and autism, this isn't news. Over the last few decades, there have been studies into this, and there is no study that shows a true link between the two.

I wonder if you're worried about what Secretary Kennedy's leadership and his view of vaccines, what it means for public health.

SHULKIN: Well, let's be clear, there've been large studies that have looked at the issue of autism and vaccines, and you're absolutely right, there have been no confirmed studies or evidence that shows that there is that association.

But I think what we have to understand here is that the job of the CDC director is to be able to represent that science, and it is a political position, it's a political appointee, and the political appointees need to be able to stand up to their principles, in this case, the secretary, and state their opinions. And the secretary certainly should be able to offer for his opinion as well.

And I think the only thing that we can really learn from this is that these differences of opinion belong in the public debate, and there needs to be more transparency on this. If there is data that we don't know about that shows associations, then that data needs to come out. But if the CDC director does not believe that, then it's important that she stand up and to give her opinion about why she thinks the policies may be going in the wrong direction. [15:45:00]

Because if we're going to regain the confidence in this very, very important public health agency, we have to have much more transparency about what the real issues are, and that's the way you get the politics out of this.

SANCHEZ: To that point, are you confident that we will see a replacement for Dr. Monarez who does back the science? Do you have any qualms about getting a replacement that simply aligns with Dr. Kennedy and his view of vaccines, which I think as you acknowledged is largely not backed by the available science?

SHULKIN: Yes, Boris, I think that is such a critical issue and such an important decision from both the White House and the Secretary in naming who this next nominee will be. Let's remember before the latest CDC director, the CDC director was not a Senate-confirmed position. The CDC was not considered a political agency. It had a political appointee, but it didn't go through this level of scrutiny.

This was a 51 to 47 vote. This was a very divided confirmation, and what I think the administration has the chance to do if they pick a person who has confidence and the backing of the scientific community, they can begin to take the important steps of restoring confidence.

And that would be an important vote of confidence if they can get a confirmation that has bipartisan support. And the only way you're going to do that is by picking somebody who's willing to stand up when there are differences of opinion but knows how to do it in the context of a political environment.

And let's remember what I think a lot of people learn when they take these jobs is, competence in your job is one thing, but this is Washington. You have to understand how to work with your own administration. You have to be able to understand how to be able to have a disagreement but not necessarily turn it into a political fight.

And, you know, I believe public service is not about political loyalty. You have no obligation to agree with your principles or the administration, but you have to learn how to effectively work in that environment. And this next nominee has to do that, but it has to be a person who I think everybody is going to agree is going to stand up for what's right for the public health of this country and frankly, the world.

SANCHEZ: And in a sense, also have to stand up to Secretary Kennedy. Would you say that that's a requirement given some of the misinformation that he has put out there?

SHULKIN: Well, I would not want to see somebody leading the CDC who did not adhere to what they believe and what the science shows. But I also think you need to have somebody who can work with their principle, in this case, Secretary Kennedy. And Secretary Kennedy holds some views that frankly, he needs to be able to trust the person that he appoints to be able to challenge his views to make sure that ultimately, we come up with the right decision.

And that's not a job for everybody. You know, this is going to be a very hard job. I think there are going to be very few people that are willing to step into that role.

But it's my hope that we will have people who are willing to raise their hand because it is so important for this country that we restore the confidence and the function of the CDC. This is an agency that if we don't get this right, you put thousands of lives at risk, maybe millions of lives at risk if that next pandemic comes down the road and we're not prepared. So this is a very important decision.

I think we're going to watch very closely the type of person who is nominated. And I hope that the Secretary is willing to put a name forward of somebody that he's willing to listen to, but not necessarily that he always agrees with.

SANCHEZ: Former VA Secretary, Dr. David Shulkin, thanks so much for the time.

SHULKIN: Glad to be here.

SANCHEZ: Stay with CNN, we'll be right back.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: There are growing calls for action in the wake of yesterday's deadly shooting at the Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis, including from the school's principal who made this emotional plea just hours after the tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT DEBOER, PRINCIPAL, ANNUNCIATION CATHOLIC SCHOOL: We can't change the past, but we can do something about the future. There's an African proverb that says, when you pray, move your feet. So I beg you, I ask you to please pray, but don't stop with your words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Joining me now is Frank DeAngelis. He was the principal at Columbine High School in 1999 when two students there opened fire, killing 12 students and one teacher. Frank, thank you so much for being with us.

We just heard from the principal at Annunciation. What is your message to him and to that community?

FRANK DEANGELIS, FORMER COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPAL: You know, unfortunately, I made a comment right after Columbine happened. I said, I just joined a club in which no one wants to be a member, and they're all of our kids. And it is so tragic what they went through, but he's not in that journey alone. And I head up something, we found it called the Principal's Recovery Network, and there are over 20 of us that have been involved in these things. And when we reach out, when we tell him, and I'm going to be calling the school here shortly just to say, we know what you're going through, we really do. And I think the most important thing, it is -- it really is a long journey. As I stated time and time again, it's a marathon and not a sprint.

And we have to get through, you know, this first week, but we're going to continually be there just as people have been there for me for the past 26 years.

SANCHEZ: So the point about this healing process being a marathon, we heard from one father whose 12-year-old daughter survived the shooting that she right now is very anxious and does not want to go back to school or to the church. What do you think an incident like this does to young people?

[15:55:00]

DEANGELIS: Oh, it definitely has an impact. And one of the things that I would strongly recommend is we came up with the Principal's Recovery Network, the guide, and it talks about that reentering the school.

And one of the things -- we had the same issue when we went back to Columbine and we could not even finish at Columbine High School because we had about a month left and our building was just destroyed. So we had to finish at Chatfield High School, who not only opened their doors, but opened their hearts.

But when we went back to Columbine, parents were calling me saying, is it safe, is it safe? And we were one of the safest schools in the world. And the thing that was an eye-opener for me, and again, this was high school, nine through 12, when some students came in to me and they said, Mr. D, we know you love us, we know you want to take care of us, but we're more anxious now when we see all this extra security, where we see all these armed officers in the building. And the thing that we want to do is to make sure that the schools are safe, but at the same time conducive for learning. And that's some of the lessons that we would share with them.

But I think what the kids are feeling right now is real, what they experienced yesterday is real. And just getting through that is very difficult, and there'll be so much support to help these students get through some of the things they're doing along with their staff.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I appreciate you describing sort of the skills that you've learned, the coping mechanisms that you've learned in trying to regroup after an event like this. But given that Columbine happened 26 years ago, and there have been so many aspirational messages about not having something like that happen again and tearing another community apart. How does it feel to you personally to see not just this happen in Minneapolis yesterday, but to know that this is just the 44th school shooting in the United States this year?

DEANGELIS: It's so difficult for me to deal because I was very naive that I can remember going home that evening. I could not go back to my house because the FBI was concerned about the safety and welfare of my family. And I'm sitting there thinking that I hope these poor kids of mine and Mr. Sanders did not die in vain, and it continues to happen. And I think as a society, we can't ever get to the point of saying, OK, how many this time? As the principal stated that we got to put our feet on the ground, we got to continue because one more death is one too many. And one of the most difficult things is, as parents, as adults, the last thing you want to do is bury a child.

And I'm fortunate, my dad is still alive, he had to bury me, I'm still his child, even though I'm 70 years old, and we need to come together.

And I think one of the things that I shared that I think is so instrumental, and I've heard this time and time again with the people that you're interviewing, people ask me, what are you going to do? And I said, what are we going to do? They're all of our kids, that we need to figure out a way to come together, that these deaths have to stop. We have to make sure that we do not allow this to continue to happen.

SANCHEZ: Frank DeAngelis of Columbine High School, thank you so much for the time, sir.

And thank you so much for being with us this afternoon. "THE ARENA" with Kasie Hunt starts after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END