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Friends Say Michigan Church Gunman Had Grudge; Pressure on Democratic Leaders; Hegseth Addresses Senior Military. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired September 30, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:33:10]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, a report from "The New York Times" reporting the shooter who killed four people at a Michigan church Sunday harbored deep resentment towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And that grudge stemmed from a breakup with a religious girlfriend more than a decade ago. The suspect's friends are also sharing details with CNN about the last time they saw him and the way he was acting, which they described as strange.

CNN's Leigh Waldman is in Grand Blanc, Michigan.

Leigh, what are you learning about the suspect in this case?

LEIGH WALDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sara, we're hearing more about who he was leading up to this attack on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints here in Grand Blanc Township. His best friend talking to "The New York Times," saying that his time in the Marine Corps changed him from a class clown to a more serious person, and talked about the time that he spent living in Utah and some former drug use in his life.

That was echoed in a conversation that we had with a man who is running for city council in a nearby community, a community that the suspected gunman, Thomas Jacob Sanford, actually lived in. This councilman candidate, Kris Johns, we spoke to him, and he actually spoke to Sanford less than a week before this attack happened. And he said right away, Sanford told him about his time in the military and about his issues with drug use in the past. But he said that part of the conversation, Sara, was only just a few minutes. Quickly, Sanford turned the conversation, asking some pointed questions, one about John's views on guns, and one about his views on the LDS community.

Take a listen to some of the rhetoric that he used.

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KRIS JOHNS, BURTON, MICHIGAN, CITY COUNCIL CANDIDATE: He did make the statement that Mormons are the antichrist, which is a shocking statement.

[08:35:02]

And again you're -- this is somebody you're just meeting for the first time.

There was anger. I mean, it was a long-standing anger that I just -- I'm speculating, but what he did took planning. It also took real motivation and real anger to ultimately do what he did.

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WALDMAN: And with that, he said in the conversation that nothing raised a red flag where he felt the need to report it. But Johns said, looking back now at what happened there, the person behind it, he says he's spoken now to the FBI. He's spoken now to the state police to give them any information to help in their investigation that's ongoing to determine a motive behind this excruciating attack.

And I believe we have some -- some new images from drone footage of that church just down the road from where we are. You can see the devastation that's there. And ATF crew, a specialized crew, is working through that debris, hoping to uncover any details, any information about this devastating attack.

Sara.

SIDNER: Yes, those images are stunningly horrific. And we know what happened inside that church. It is just too awful for words.

Thank you so much, Leigh Waldman. Really appreciate your great reporting.

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Coming up, the clock ticks closer towards tonight's shutdown -- government shutdown deadline with zero sign of a deal in sight. At this point, what could actually force Democrats and Republicans to make a deal? We'll discuss.

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[08:40:32]

BOLDUAN: All right, a live look at Capitol Hill, where a lot and not a lot is happening right now. Time is quickly running out for lawmakers to come to a compromise and do their jobs to avoid a government shutdown, keep the government funded. This morning there is still no signs of a deal on the horizon.

CNN's Harry Enten is running the numbers on this in a specific -- in a specific way. How one party, you see in the numbers, is facing more pressure than the others, and that's the Democrats. Why?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Why is it that the Democrats, in my mind, are facing more pressure? Those Democratic leaders. And that is because their base thinks that their party leaders are weak, weak, weak. Look at this, Democrats on who has strong leaders. Look at this, 54 percent say neither party -- 54 percent of Democrats say neither party has strong leaders. Among Republicans, 80 percent of their base thinks Republicans have strong leaders. Yet among Democrats just -- get this, just 35 percent of Democrats say their party has strong leaders. When you add together this 54 percent with this 11 percent, we're talking about two-thirds of Democrats who say neither party or Republicans have stronger leaders as compared to just 35 percent who say their own parties have strong leaders. As I said at the top, weak, weak, weak is how Democrats view their leaders in Washington.

BOLDUAN: But the -- facing more pressure too, does this suggest, and we'll continue with this, but the question then is, does this suggest that the pressure is for them to cut a deal or to stand against what they think is what Republicans want? That remains kind of the question in and of this. But getting stuff done, who gets stuff done?

ENTEN: Yes, exactly. And this is the other thing. It's not just that Democrats think that their party leaders are weak, weak, weak. They also think they don't get anything done. I mean, take a look here. OK, Democrats and who get things done. Again, it's just 50 -- we get this, 50 percent of the Democrats say neither party gets anything done. Just 41 percent of Democrats say their own party gets stuff done. When you add in this 9 percent of Democrats who say the Republican Party is more likely to get things done with neither party, we're talking about three in five Democrats who say neither party or Republicans are more likely to get things done than the Democratic Party. And again, that is the complete inverse of how Republicans feel, because 77 percent of Republicans think their own party leaders are likely to get things done, compared to just 41 percent of Democrats, about half that level, who think their own leaders get things done.

Again, Democrats just don't think very highly of their party at this point. And that is why there's so much pressure on those leaders, in my mind, in Washington to actually do something that satisfies their base.

BOLDUAN: Add all of this up. What does it say about the view of the Democratic Party in general?

ENTEN: Yes, if you think your party has weak leaders, if you think your party can't get anything done, well, this is, I think, the real pressure facing Democrats at this particular point. Democrats who think their parties need major changes or more. Look at this, 57 percent of Democrats say their party needs major changes or more, compared to just 43 percent who say minor or no changes. Again, very different than the Republican Party, where 21 percent of Republicans, only 21 percent, say their party needs major changes or more.

Again, a lot of pressure on Democratic leaders to actually do something their base likes for a change.

BOLDUAN: Thank you, Harry.

ENTEN: Thank you, Kate.

BOLDUAN: John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, back to that in just a minute.

But we've been watching Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth in Quantico, Virginia, addressing a crowd of admirals and generals, pretty much all of the senior officers that he called there for this speech. I want to give you a taste of what he's been saying.

Listen.

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PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Clearing out the debris, removing the distractions, clearing the way for leaders to be leaders. You might say we're ending the war on warriors. I heard someone wrote a book about that.

For too long we've promoted too many uniform leaders for the wrong reasons. Based on their race. Based on gender quotas. Based on historic so-called firsts. We've pretended that combat arms and non- combat arms are the same thing. We've weeded out so-called toxic leaders under the guise of double-blind psychology assessments, promoting risk averse go along to get along conformists instead.

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BERMAN: All right, with us now, CNN political commentator S.E. Cupp, and Christine Quinn, president and chief executive officer of WIN.

Pete Hegseth there just made a joke about a book that he wrote --

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

BERMAN: Which was ending the war on warriors. But so far this sounds like he's basically reading out loud from his book to this group of senior officers.

[08:45:08]

CUPP: A friend of mine, a colleague who covers Nat Sec and defense, has been posting on X about this. He's there and he said, "he could have said this in an email." And said about a line where he basically says, FAFO, f around and find out, to our enemies. He said, "nobody reacted. One person let out a mild woo, while the rest sat silent. This is ridiculous."

The idea that this is not being taken seriously by people in the room is very alarming, dangerous. And that's what I'm hearing from our service men and women. What was the point? What is the point of this? Is this edifying Hegseth? Trump? No one can tell.

BERMAN: I will say, I mean, everyone in the room, I'm sure, has the same basic goals.

CHRISTINE QUINN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, WIN: Absolutely.

BERMAN: And they've all been in the military for a lifetime there. And then they have the defense secretary, who this may be the first time they've had a chance to hear from him in person.

Let's listen to a little more of what he's saying. Christine, hang on one second.

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Military is led by the very best, ready to answer the nations call.

Fifth, as you have seen, and the media has obsessed over, I have fired a number of senior officers since taking over. The previous chairman, other members of the Joint Chiefs, combatant commanders and other commanders. The rationale for me has been straightforward. It's nearly impossible to change a culture with the same people who helped create or even benefited from that culture. Even if that culture was created by a previous president and previous secretary.

My approach has been simple, when in doubt, assess the situation, follow your gut, and if it's the best for the military, make a change. We all serve at the pleasure of the president every single day.

But in many ways, it's not their fault. It's not your fault. As foolish and reckless as the woke department was, those officers were following elected political leadership. An entire generation of generals and admirals were told that they must parrot the insane fallacy that, quote, "our diversity is our strength." Of course, we know our unity is our strength.

They had to put out dizzying DEI and LGBTQI plus statements. They were told females and males are the same thing, or that males who think they're females, totally normal. They were told that we need a green fleet and electric tanks. They were told to kick out Americans who refused an emergency vaccine. They followed civilian policies set by foolish and reckless political leaders.

Our job, my job, has been to determine which leaders simply did what they must to answer the prerogatives of civilian leadership and which leaders are truly invested in the woke department, and therefore incapable of embracing the War Department and executing new, lawful orders. That's it. It's that simple.

So, for the past eight months we've gotten a good look under the hood of our officer corps. We've done our best to thoroughly assess the human terrain. We've had to make trade-offs and some difficult decisions. It's more of an art than a science. We have been and will continue to be judicious, but also expeditious.

The new compass heading is clear, out with the Shirelles, the MacKenzies and the Milleys, and in with the Stockdales, the Schwarzkopfs and the Pattons.

More leadership changes will be made. Of that I'm certain. Not because we want to, but because we must. Once again, this is life and death. The sooner we have the right people, the sooner we can advance the right policies. Personnel is policy.

But I look out at this group and I see great Americans. Leaders who have given decades to our great republic at great sacrifice to yourselves and to your families. But if the words I'm speaking today are making your heart sink, then you should do the honorable thing and resign. We would thank you for your service.

But I suspect I know the overwhelming majority of you feel the opposite. These words make your hearts full. You love the War Department because you love what you do. The profession of arms. You are hereby liberated to be an apolitical, hard-charging, no nonsense constitutional leader that you joined the military to be.

[08:50:11]

We need you locked in on the "m," not the "d," the "e" or the "i." Not the DEI or the DIE of dime. By that I mean the "m," military, of the instruments of national power. We have entire departments across the government dedicated to diplomatic, informational and economic lines of effort. We do the "m." Nobody else does. And our GOFOs need to master it in every domain and every scenario. No more distractions. No more political ideologies. No more debris.

Now, of course, we're going to disagree at times. We would not be Americans if we didn't. Being a leader in a large organization like ours means having frank conversations and differences of opinion. You will win some arguments, and you will lose some arguments. But when civilian leaders issue lawful orders, we execute. We are professionals in the profession of arms. Our entire constitutional system is predicated upon this understanding.

Now, it seems like a small thing, but it's not. This includes as well the behavior of our troops online. To that end, I want to thank and recognize the services for their new proactive social media policies. Use them. Anonymous online or keyboard complaining is not worthy of a warrior. It's cowardice masquerading as conscience. Anonymous unit level social media pages that trash commanders, demoralize troops and undermine unit cohesion must not be tolerated.

Again 0-3's, E-6's.

Sixth, we must train, and we must maintain. Any moment that we are not training on our mission or maintaining our equipment is a moment we are less prepared for preventing or winning the next war. That is why today, at my direction, we are drastically reducing the ridiculous amount of mandatory training that individuals and units must execute. We've already ended the most egregious. Now we're giving you back real time. Less PowerPoint briefings and fewer online courses, more time in the motor pool, and more time on the range. Our job is to make sure you have the money, equipment, weapons and parts to train and maintain, and then you take it from there. You all know this because it's common sense. The tougher and the higher the standards in our units, the higher the retention rates in those units. Warriors want to be challenged. Troops want to be tested. When you don't train and you don't maintain, you demoralize. And that's when our best people decide to take their talents to the civilian world.

The leaders who created the woke department have already driven out too many hard chargers. We reverse that trend right now. There is no world in which high intensity war exists without pain, agony, and human tragedy. We are in a dangerous line of work. You are in a dangerous line of work. We may lose good people but let no warrior cry out from the grave, if only I had been properly trained. We will not use -- lose warfighters because we failed to train or equip them or resource them. Shame on us if we do. Train like your warriors' lives depend on it, because they do.

To that point, basic training is being restored to what it should be, scary, tough and disciplined. We're empowering drill sergeants to instill healthy fear in new recruits, ensuring that future warfighters are forged.

Yes, they can shark attack, they can toss bunks, they can swear, and, yes, they can put their hands on recruits. This does not mean they can be reckless or violate the law, but they can use tried and true methods to motivate new recruits to make them the warriors they need to be. Back to basics at basic as well.

Of course, and you know this, basic training is not where mission readiness should end. The nature of the evolving threat environment demands that everyone, in every job, must be ready to join the fight if needed. A core credo of the Marine corps is, every Marine, a rifleman. It means that everyone, regardless of MOS, is proficient enough to engage an enemy threat at sea, in the air, or in a so-called rear area. We need to ensure that every member of our uniformed military maintains baseline proficiency in basic combat skills, especially because the next war, like the last, will likely not have a rear area.

[08:55:14]

Finally, as President Trump rightly pointed out when he changed the department name, the United States has not won a major theater war since the name was changed to the Department of Defense in 1947. One conflict stands out in stark contrast, the Gulf War. Why? Well, there's a number of reasons, but it was a limited mission with overwhelming force and a clear end state. But why did we execute and win the Gulf War the way we did in 1991?

There's two overwhelming reasons. One was President Ronald Reagan's military buildup gave an overwhelming advantage. And two, military and Pentagon leadership had previous formative battlefield experiences. The men who led this department during the Gulf War were mostly combat veterans of the Vietnam War. They said never again to mission creep or nebulous end states.

The same holds true today. Our civilian and military leadership is chock-full of veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan, who say never again to nation building and nebulous end states. This clear-eyed view all the way in the White House, combined with President Trump's military buildup, postures us for future victories if, and we will, and when we embrace the War Department. And we must.

We are preparing. Every day we have to be prepared for war, not for defense. We're training warriors, not defenders. We fight wars to win, not to defend. Defense is something you do all the time. It's inherently reactionary and can lead to overuse, overreach, and mission creep. War is something you do sparingly on our own terms and with clear aims.

We fight to win. We unleash overwhelming and punishing violence on the enemy. We also don't fight with stupid rules of engagement. We untie the hands of our warfighters to intimidate, demoralize, hunt, and kill the enemies of our country. No more politically correct and overbearing rules of engagement, just common sense, maximum lethality and authority for warfighters. That's all I ever wanted as a platoon leader. And it's all my E-6 squad leaders ever wanted. Back to that E- 6 rule. We let our leaders fight their formations, and then we have their back. It's very simple, yet incredibly powerful.

A few months ago, I was at the White House when President Trump announced his liberation day for America's trading policy. It was a landmark day. Well, today is another liberation day. The liberation of America's warriors in name, in deed and in authorities. You kill people and break things for a living. You are not politically correct and don't necessarily belong always in polite society.

We are not an army of one. We are a joint force of millions of selfless Americans. We are warriors. We are purpose built, not for fair weather, blue skies or calm seas. We were built to load up in the back of helicopters, five tons or zodiacs, in the dead of night, in fair weather or foul, to go to dangerous places, to find -- to find those who would do our nation harm, and deliver justice on behalf of the American people in close and brutal combat, if necessary. You are different.

We fight, not because we hate what's in front of us. We fight because we love what's behind us. You see, the Ivy League faculty lounges will never understand us. And that's OK. Because they could never do what you do. The media will mischaracterize us. And that's OK. Because deep down they know the reason that they can do what they do is you.

In this profession, you feel comfortable inside the violence so that our citizens can live peacefully. Lethality is our calling card, and victory our only acceptable end state.

In closing, a few weeks ago at our monthly Pentagon Christian prayer service I recited A Commander's Prayer. It's a simple yet meaningful prayer for wisdom for commanders and leaders.

[09:00:02]

I encourage you to look it up if you've never seen it. But the prayer, it ends like this. And most of all, Lord.