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Essential Federal Workers Afraid of Taking Sick Days?; John Bolton Pleads Not Guilty; Trump Meets With Zelenskyy at White House. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired October 17, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Maybe not much, except that he -- that video is fake. The video is fake.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Yes.

DOVERE: And that has been pushed forward by the Senate Republican committee now.

BASH: Like you said, this is not the first time we're going to see that, but it is a whole -- what did you say, a new frontier?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It's a whole new world.

BASH: It's a whole new world, new frontier. All of it is true.

ZELENY: All of it.

BASH: Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining INSIDE POLITICS today.

Please join me on "STATE OF THE UNION" this Sunday. Republican Senator Katie Britt is among my guests. I hope to see you. It's Sunday 9:00 a.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. I'm Boris Sanchez alongside Brianna Keilar in the nation's capital.

And we are standing by. At any moment, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is set to arrive at the White House, and President Donald Trump is expected to greet him for what will soon be their fourth face-to-face meeting this year. Several meetings have ranged from cordial and even fun, some would say, with smiles and laughs, to fiery and dramatic.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And being excused unceremoniously from the White House.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

KEILAR: So we are watching this very carefully.

And it comes after a busy week that began with President Trump signing a cease-fire deal for Gaza. He's now hoping to broker another peace deal between Ukraine and Russia, but Zelenskyy also has weapons on his mind, specifically long-range Tomahawk missiles that the White House has suggested could be on the table.

Trump has signaled he's open to allowing Ukraine to have these weapons. And a second summit between Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin is also being planned in Hungary right now, President Trump saying that meeting will happen within two weeks or so.

Let's go to CNN anchor and chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, a big moment today, another one. What can we expect?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Yes.

And, obviously, this comes off the heels of the president's trip to the Middle East. He believes that he ended that war there. He stated definitively that he believes it's over. And now he's turning his eyes, Brianna and Boris, to the next one that he is hoping to end, which is Russia's war in Ukraine.

And so we're going to be watching this meeting very closely on that key issue that you just mentioned there, these Tomahawk missiles that Zelenskyy has been seeking. They're capable of striking deep inside Russia, which is why the Ukrainians are interested in them. And they want to be able to have that option at their hands as this war has continued to go on and as Putin has continued to strike Ukraine.

Despite many phone calls with the president, despite his orders for him to stop, we have seen that continue to go on, at times frustrating the president. But then, at other times, after they have phone calls, sometimes, the president pulls back on his criticism of the Russian leader.

And so we're waiting to see how he handles that in front of Zelenskyy today. But there's a few key differences already so far in this visit compared to the last two times we saw President Zelenskyy here at the White House.

And the first, Boris and Brianna, is where Zelenskyy stayed last night. He was at the Blair House, which is the presidential guesthouse that is just across the street from the White House. It's typically where world leaders stay when they're coming and visiting with the U.S. president. But ever since Trump has been back in office, Zelenskyy has instead stayed nearby at a hotel, instead of staying there.

He did stay there once under President Biden when he was in office. But that's already a change. And there's a ton of security here outside the White House. Multiple blocks separating -- surrounding the White House campus have been blocked off, with security measures. There's been a bunch of drones flying overhead, as you have just noticed the presence of Zelenskyy here and the security that comes along with that.

And the second location that's going to be different if we see this happen on camera here after Zelenskyy arrives here at the White House is where the two of them are going to be meeting. Typically, it's been in the Oval Office. That's where they famously had that blowup earlier this year. I was in the room for that.

It was a remarkable meeting where there was basically a lot of shouting happening between the president and the vice president with Zelenskyy defending himself. And then, of course, we saw that second Oval Office meeting, where things were much more cordial between President Trump and President Zelenskyy. And he talked about the respect he had for Ukraine's effort in this war.

This one is going to be in the Cabinet Room this time. It's not clear why the location has been changed. The White House is describing this as a working lunch. And we know very clearly what is on Zelenskyy's mind. The question is whether or not he's going to get it.

And President Trump was asked earlier -- yesterday, actually, about this idea of sending these Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine, giving them to them, and something he said he brought up, actually, with President Putin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did actually say: "Would you mind if I gave a couple of thousand Tomahawks to your opposition?"

I did say that to him. I said it just that way. He didn't like the idea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: No surprise, obviously, that the Russian leader would not want Ukraine to have the ability to strike deep inside of Russia.

But the question is whether or not President Trump is going to give Zelenskyy that opportunity. It didn't certain sound -- certainly sound like he was leaning towards that direction when we heard from him yesterday. The question is whether today's meeting is successful in making that determination.

[13:05:07]

SANCHEZ: A major question looming ahead.

Kaitlan, please stand by.

Let's go to CNN chief of international security correspondent Nick Paton Walsh.

Nick, for years now, Putin has threatened that, if the United States crosses a certain line of arming Ukraine, of supplying Ukraine with certain kinds of weapons, there would be an escalation, perhaps a nuclear one, perhaps a global war.

What do you think the Kremlin is watching for most closely here?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I mean, they sounded the same warnings again after the idea of Tomahawks was floated that they sounded when attack missiles were floated by the Biden administration. They were ultimately supplied.

And Putin's response, despite all the nuclear sable rattling, which I think many have considered irresponsible and learned to believe that there's likely not much substance behind that for now, Putin's response was the use of, some say, experimental missile loaded with conventional warheads that killed nobody, but caused some quite scary fireworks over the skies of Dnipro.

I think many are less concerned exactly what the Russian practical response will be here because they're already exhausted militarily fighting a war in Ukraine, which they thought would last a matter of weeks. The Tomahawks themselves, it's important to point out, won't massively change what Ukraine has been able to do.

It's unlikely that Trump's going to be able to give thousands. It may be the high single digits that they ultimately get. They're normally launched at sea. They're going to have to somehow be launched at land likely by Ukrainians, unless Americans are going to operate them.

And Ukraine's long-range drones already reach the distances that Tomahawks could do. The point is that Tomahawks will be faster, better, potentially more accurate, better getting through air defenses, but also, most importantly, psychologically say that the most efficient and, frankly, scary for Russia weapons in the American arsenal are at the disposal of the Ukrainians.

Remember, these will be sold to European allies, who will then give them to Ukraine. That means that so much else could potentially be in Ukraine's hands, and it would be a stark escalation by a U.S. president who for now has been very cautious to not provide lethal aid, even stepping back from secondary sanctions he's given multiple deadlines around as well.

That's the psychological issue at stake here, but I think we're also dealing with a President Zelenskyy in a much stronger position than he was when we saw that horrific Oval Office blowout back in February. That was before a Russian summer offensive, which many were concerned would really reshape the eastern front lines.

We have got a month really until winter kicks in and fighting's a lot harder for an advancing army. The key towns that Putin wanted aren't in his hands yet, could change in the weeks ahead, but he's had a much harder time taking significant territory than he thought perhaps he would do. And, indeed, Putin is now very aware that Donald Trump has been

through a process with him that has left Trump at times saying, is Putin stringing me along, how disappointed he has been. So the sort of initial rosy hope of this White House that they could easily find a deal perhaps to improve U.S.-Russian relations, bring this war to a close, that clearly has evaporated.

And we have this unprecedented moment, frankly, where some of the best parts of the American arsenal are now potentially on the table as being given to Ukraine. Zelenskyy will know all that. He's changed his approach to this particular visit, meeting energy officials, talking to defense industry chiefs, notably Raytheon, who build the Patriot air defense system.

He suggested joint production with them, so a much smarter approach for Ukraine here in terms of this Trump administration, a more aggressive posture, frankly, than I think any of us thought were possible four months ago from the Trump administration, but still Vladimir Putin here getting in early with that phone call, suggesting on territory probably favorable to him and to President Trump, Hungary, where Viktor Orban is an ally, frankly, to both, to some degree, and trying to buy himself a little more time.

The big question for today is, are we going to see any of those threats of Tomahawk still on the table, or is Trump going to try and quiet that down in order to give more space for diplomacy, part two, three, four, whatever you want to call it -- Boris.

KEILAR: Yes. And you have to wonder if that aggressive posture has to do with what we saw earlier this week.

I wonder, Kaitlan. You were there in Israel, Trump there with many leaders from other nations to sign this Gaza cease-fire deal. Has that changed his calculations when it comes to approaching this negotiation between Ukraine and Russia?

COLLINS: Well, that's a great question, because what we know Zelenskyy wants is fewer talks happening and more weapons, basically, to see the end of this.

And one thing that he raised yesterday as he was touching down here in Washington is that, as soon as this talk of Tomahawk missiles potentially going to Ukraine with some positive-sounding comments from Trump, that's when the moment when Putin started generating conversations with Trump again and talking about this prospect of a meeting happening in Budapest.

The president said yesterday that could be in two weeks, though I have talked to some officials who say it's not really clear when exactly that could happen. But, certainly, the president has his mind set on ending this war and bringing it to an end. And he has made very clear that the president has made very clear that the president has his mind set on ending this war and bringing it to an end.

[13:10:09] And he has made very clear in his public statements that, when he came into office, he thought this one would be much easier than it has been. And it has eluded him, obviously, during this first year of his presidency back in office. And so he has been trying to secure an end to this.

But the question is whether or not anything is actually going to materialize from that. And he praised his meeting with Putin in Alaska yesterday. He said he thought it was productive. But what was clear is that nothing tangible came out of that in terms of anything changing on the ground in Ukraine.

Russia continued to strike and to kill children and women in the days following that. And so that's really the question going forward here in terms of what that's going to look like and if he and Zelenskyy are on the same page.

And so it's certainly similar to the ultimate goal here of what happened in Gaza. He wants to bring that war to an end, but a very different dynamic with the world leaders. And I will tell you, I hear the -- we hear some of the cars firing up. We will see if that means Zelenskyy is about to show up here at the White House.

Right now, the meeting between the two of them is not open to press. We will see if that changes and if they let cameras into the room, so we can hear how those conversations are playing out.

SANCHEZ: Yes. We will keep an eye on the North Lawn there and the exterior of the Oval Office. These, of course, are live images right now.

Nick, talk to us about the pressure Putin is under not only domestically, but also even among some allies.

WALSH: Yes, look, two answers to that question.

Yes, certainly, while we have seen externally the Chinese and the Indians, the Indians giving a lot of money through hydrocarbon purchases to the Russians, the Chinese, their key sponsor and backer, frankly, they were clearly concerned about the possibility of secondary sanctions, maybe less so now multiple deadlines over that have indeed passed.

They haven't put anything like what seems to be external pressure on Russia. And, in fact, some Chinese diplomats have suggested privately that they need Russia to not lose this particular war. So, on the surface, the allies have probably got Russia's back, but it's not an indefinite promise.

And the domestic pressures Putin are under are perhaps harder to divine in an authoritarian society, but there is in no doubt as a result of Ukrainian strikes on oil refineries and energy infrastructure a gasoline crisis at Russian pump stations in multiple regions. They clearly have something of a manpower issue, the bonuses for signing on or off going up and down in various regions. And so I think now this summer offensive has not brought the strategic

gains yet that Putin wanted, the clock is certainly ticking on Putin as to how much into next year he can keep this kind of intensity up.

KEILAR: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much to both of you.

As we are monitoring these live pictures there from the West Wing, we are awaiting President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at the White House, and we will be seeing him greeted by President Trump. We will be bringing that to you as soon as it happens.

Still ahead: President Trump's former national security adviser pleading not guilty in federal court. We will explain why the case against John Bolton may be different than those against other Trump targets.

Plus, the government shutdown now guaranteed to last until at least next week. We're hearing from federal workers who say they're terrified to miss work.

SANCHEZ: And, later, we're following a frenzy of updates from Chicago, the city now the epicenter of Trump's immigration crackdown, where it appears that not even police are exempt.

We will explain in just moments on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[13:18:00]

SANCHEZ: Former National Security Adviser John Bolton just finished up his first court appearance since being indicted on federal charges, pleading not guilty to all 18 counts against him.

Prosecutors allege that Bolton unlawfully mishandled classified information. That makes him the third high-profile Trump critic to be indicted over the last month.

CNN's Evan Perez is back from the federal courthouse in Maryland.

So, Evan, walk us through what Bolton is actually being accused of and how this prosecution is different than the cases against James Comey and Letitia James.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a case that has been years in the making. They started investigating Bolton back in 2021 after the Iranians allegedly hacked his AOL account.

And in doing that, the FBI discovered that there were concerns that he had been sharing potentially classified, potentially national security information on those e-mail accounts because they saw what the Iranians had obtained. And so that's where this investigation began and that's what makes it so different from some of the other cases that we have seen in the last few weeks. Certainly, career prosecutors are still in support of this case, when

you look at in contrast with the Comey case and with the Letitia James case, where the career prosecutors don't believe that there was enough evidence to bring those cases.

SANCHEZ: People resigned over that, yes.

PEREZ: Right, exactly. And some of them resigned over it.

In this case, you still have the prosecutors and the investigators who have been involved from the beginning. So he's facing 18 counts in all. There were eight counts of transmission of national security information and 10 counts of retention of those -- of these documents.

And what prosecutors claim they found in some of these documents is references that he writes. He's writing in a diary almost, sending them to himself, sometimes to his wife and his daughter, explaining some of his experiences. He comes out of meetings from the Situation Room and says as much.

[13:20:02]

He also talks about some of the briefings he was getting from intelligence officials. So that's what makes this case so serious. Now, you have heard from Abbe Lowell and from Bolton himself in the last 24 hours.

And they today again in court -- obviously, he pleaded not guilty. And they made clear that they believe this is a case of malicious and selective prosecution, because they believe that Bolton is being targeted simply because he's a critic of the president of the United States.

Now, this is going to play out now, Boris, over the next few months. We heard from the judge today that we were next going to see him in court in November, but we don't know yet when this trial will be set.

SANCHEZ: Evan Perez, thank you so much for keeping an eye on that for us.

So they're already stressed about not getting their paychecks, and now federal workers tell CNN they're avoiding taking sick days over fears they could be fired for missing work during the government shutdown. Some new reporting coming your way in just moments.

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[13:25:31]

KEILAR: With the U.S. Senate adjourned for the weekend, there will be no new votes to reopen the federal government until at least next week.

And now CNN has learned that some essential federal workers are avoiding taking sick days because they're afraid they could lose their jobs if they're absent during the shutdown. CNN's Rene Marsh is with us now.

Rene, what are you learning about this?

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, myself and colleague Tami Luhby, we spoke with several federal employees who are caught in the middle of this shutdown, including this one Social Security employee who didn't realize that her surgery would be upended in all of this.

It was scheduled for early October, but she's decided to postpone it because she's afraid she'd lose her job for taking the two weeks that it takes to recover. And what we have been told from a union representative is that multiple employees at the Social Security Administration have been told that if they are deemed essential and they do not show up for work, they could essentially be terminated, leaving workers to feel like they have to choose between their jobs and their health.

Both at the Social Security Administration and the IRS, employees are telling us that they receive guidance from their managers that if they are designated as essential, meaning they have to show up for work, but they're not getting paid, if they're not there, they could face disciplinary or adverse actions on their employee records, something that these union leaders say is really unprecedented during a lapse in government funding.

These -- again, these are employees who have these critical roles. They are not furloughed. They do have to continue to show up for work, but they're not getting paid. Now, we reached out to the Social Security Administration and they told us in a statement that they followed the standard practice during a lapse in government appropriations, notifying staff about furlough status and maintaining those notices in personnel records.

But really across several agencies, many essential employees saying that their requests for leave, even for medical reasons, are being forbidden. At the IRS campus in Atlanta, CNN obtained internal messages sent to many of these employees which said that if they have an absence, even if it's for surgeries or even like a vacation, they would be marked as absent without leave.

We saw another message from managers that warned that these employees could essentially, again, be terminated. But there is some confusion on the campus there in Atlanta for the IRS. There is a director who said that she was not aware of that guidance. Despite her not being aware, direct managers are still telling these employees, if you miss a day, you potentially could lose your job.

We spoke with lots of experts about this to find out what their thoughts are. Max Stier, CEO of the Partnership for Public Service, this nonprofit that is all about improving the federal government, he calls this highly unusual and saying that they have never seen something like this before.

KEILAR: Rene, thank you so much. Really alarming that's happening for federal workers. Let's go now to the White House, where President Trump is receiving

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, shaking hands there out in front of the North Portico ahead of a meeting they are going to be having. Let's listen in.

QUESTION: Do you believe Putin is negotiating in good faith, sir? Do you believe -- is Putin negotiating in good faith, sir? Thank you.

KEILAR: All right, President Trump taking no questions there as he welcomes Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to the White House.

They have a lot to discuss. Zelenskyy is coming to ask for longer- range missiles, missiles that could put St. Petersburg and Moscow in reach of Ukrainian forces, something that certainly Vladimir Putin does not want, though he's insisting it would not change conditions on the battlefield, though he did have a warning reportedly for President Trump that it would severely damage U.S.-Russian relations.

We will have to see how President Trump responds to that.

And we will be right back with more news, as we are watching this day unfold, a historic day at the White House here in Washington.

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