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House Votes on Releasing Epstein Files, Now; Speaker Johnson Votes to Release Epstein Files Despite Slamming Bill; Thomas Massie Says Senate Part of the Cover-up if It Amends Bill That Would Release All Epstein Files. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 18, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R-LA) HOUSE SPEAKER: -- questioning why it is that Democrats have done this right now, have to look at the obvious facts. The Democrats had all the Epstein files in their possession for four long years under the Biden presidency. The Biden Department of Justice had these files. And no one on this side who is breathless today about the urgency of this release ever said a word about it. And it was the Democrats who could have urged President Biden's Department of Justice to go beyond prosecuting just Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. But they didn't do it.

And so it's a fair question to ask today, why now? Why the sudden urgent interest in Jeffrey Epstein? Look, we know why. It's because the Democrats were never interested in transparency or executing justice or protecting the victims of this unspeakable tragedy before the simple truth is obvious for everybody to see. This is a political exercise for Democrats, and it pains me to say it. I wish that was not the truth, but it is, and it's undeniable. This is as deceitful and dishonest as their pointless stunt was to shut the government down.

Democrats are using the Epstein tragedy, the unspeakable evils that this guy committed with his trafficking ring and all of the abuses that they made these young women go through. They're using that as a political weapon to try to distract from their failures as a party and to try their best to try to tie President Trump somehow into this wretched scandal. The President had nothing to do with it. He's been very clear, and he has nothing to hide. And that's why he's endorsed the vote today. I suspect this vote will be probably unanimous.

But here's the important point that everybody needs to understand. We have been advocates of maximum transparency, but we have also insisted that the victims be carefully protected. The Oversight Committee has been doing extraordinary work. And we've got some of the, the most vigorous advocates on the Republican and Democrat side on the Oversight Committee. They've been working in earnest to deliver transparency for the American people and to do it in a responsible manner.

What do we mean by that? The bipartisan effort over there is already producing all the results that the discharge petition seeks and much, much more. Chairman Comer and all of these advocates over there have been releasing thousands of documents, for example, from the Epstein Estate. By the way, in my view, that's been the greatest treasure trove of information because it has yielded for us Epstein's own personal flight logs, his financial records, his daily calendars, and so much more.

But importantly, none of that was addressed or is addressed in the legislation that's being voted on today. The estate files wouldn't even have been encompassed in that. And so it goes to show that the Oversight Committee is doing it from the direct (ph) way. From the very beginning, we've been insistent that this matter be handled carefully and with the utmost caution and care for the people who have been harmed. They should not be made to suffer any longer. We're talking about real people's lives at stake here, and young victims who don't want to be dragged into this political game that could get hurt further.

But the Democrats are rushing the release of thousands of unsubstantiated documents that may be included in this, that are going to be in the public domain with the passage of this bill. And there are serious deficiencies in the legislation that I have noted at length, and Republicans have to work to address those deficiencies in the Senate if and when this legislation is advanced. I stood before the American public today at our press conference, and I explained in detail the dangers of the discharge petition. We have posted it at my website, speaker.gov, a summary, the legal counsel, a small army of lawyers put this together.

I used to be a federal court litigator. Many of my colleagues who've spoken today were. We understand the dangers of how this was haphazardly drawn up. And among them, by the way, Mr. Speaker, before I forget, I seek unanimous consent to enter this document into the record. It that it is, that it's on the website. It's entitled "How the Flaws of H.R. 4405 could re-victimize Epstein's victims, create new victims, and damage the judicial system." It is dated today. Thank you.

And it summarizes just five or six of the major concerns, among them, it fails to fully protect victim privacy. It could create new categories of victims. It potentially jeopardizes grand jury secrecy. It fails to prohibit release of child sexual abuse materials that are not appropriately defined in the legislation. It jeopardizes future of federal investigations and we have national security concerns regarding classified information.

We'll put this in the record because we need the legislative record to reflect what is the legislative intent behind this vote. I used to litigate cases, we would litigate federal statutes and whether or not they could survive, and legislative intent is important. And we need to say clearly, for the record, as the Speaker of the House, I'm saying to you, this legislation that will pass today is flawed and it must be amended.

The question is why didn't we amend it here before we passed it? Because the authors won't allow it. Because under the rules of the House, under a discharge petition, they have to agree to consent for the legislation to be amended and they're not doing that. So now, we rely upon our partners in the other chamber to get that done. And they need to do that. The victims deserve our utmost respect. In fact, they should be saluted for their courage. And the young women who have not come forward, who are now -- some of them are middle aged women, who have not come forward also deserve our respect. And they deserve to be protected.

[14:05:00]

Republicans support transparency. We want maximum transparency, especially when it comes to disclosing the names of anybody who had anything to do with these evils. Anybody who conspired with or aided in any way, Jeffrey Epstein, they must be brought to justice. We want the bill to be amended so it doesn't, at the same time, violate victim privacy, create new victims, disclose the names of any whistleblower or informant, cause the release of grand jury materials or child sexual abuse materials, or undermine our national security.

And if and when the Senate takes this up, we will work with our colleagues over there to make sure that these things are corrected. I'll just close with this simple thought. We've been at this a while. It's dragged on for a while, but it's time for this to come to light. We are -- I expect that -- I expect that this will be a unanimous vote and it will reflect what I think every member in this chamber, and I'll say this -- now, at least in recent days, every member of the chamber on the Democrat side, they didn't say anything for four years, but they're for maximum transparency now. And so is this side.

But we want to do it in a respectful and careful manner, so that we don't subject innocent people to further harm. And that has been the whole thing. I told all my members today, I'll be voting yes on this, and I suspect almost everyone will. We'll send it to the Senate and we hope it's corrected. Thank you for the time, Mr. Speaker. And I'll yield back.

REP. JIM JORDAN, (R-OH) CHAIRMAN, HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Gentleman reserves. The gentleman from Maryland is recognized.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN, (D-MD): I'm yielding to Mr. Gomez for the sole purpose of making a parliamentary inquiry.

JORDAN: Mr. Gomez is recognized.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": We've been listening to House Speaker Mike Johnson on the floor of the House, soon before this vote is set to take place on a discharge petition to secure the full release of the Epstein files. Notable there, the House Speaker arguing that this is a political exercise by Democrats because Donald Trump is in the White House, also suggesting that a release would stand to re-traumatize and expose victims. It should be noted that some of the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein in this case have pushed for the full release of these documents, not only because they believe that many of the victims' names will be redacted, but there are a lot of documents that they've seen that have been redacted with more than victim's name. So this release will secure transparency further.

Democrats going back as 2019, at least two South Florida Congresswoman, Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Lois Frankel have pushed for the release of these documents. So to suggest that this is new or some kind of political act aimed at Donald Trump just ignores the facts.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CO-ANCHOR OF "CNN NEWS CENTRAL": Such a good point. And also, victims, according to at least one of their lawyers, want these documents out there because they know a lot of things, but they can't always just come out --

SANCHEZ: Right.

KEILAR: -- with them. They can't come out with accusations. They don't want to deal with the legal culpability because the people that they may be accusing of things or that they could are people with a lot of resources right at their disposal.

SANCHEZ: Right.

KEILAR: So they would like to see these resources out there, so that they are not the -- or it's not just a he said, she said kind of thing, right? Let's go to Manu Raju. He's up there on the Hill for what is really an extraordinary day. Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. A really extraordinary day indeed. In fact, I just talked to two of the sponsors of this bill. The people who have been pushing this for months and have follow has faced resistance from Speaker Johnson and the White House, but are about to see this vote succeed, maybe unanimously, just a stunning reversal here in Washington after months of pushing this bill. Thomas Massie, Ro Khanna, both pushing back against the criticism from the Speaker of the House, even though the Speaker begrudgingly is going to support this bill. And you heard his criticism on the floor, the Speaker among his concerns, he says that this victim's names and the victim's information would not be adequately protected in this bill.

He has also raised con rather raised concerns about some of the other issues as well. Ro Khanna defending saying that that he is -- he pushed back and said, that is simply not the case. And Thomas Massie just told me that if the Senate does change this bill, as the Speaker is pushing, he said it would -- the Senate would be involved in a "cover-up" on this. So we'll see how the Senate reacts in the aftermath of what is going to be a huge, huge vote.

Listen to what Ro Khanna just told me moments ago about the Speaker's criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: The victim's name should be better -- the victims should be better protected in this bill. That was poorly drafted. The Speaker is saying that.

REP. RO KHANNA, (D-CA): So the speaker thinks he knows better than the victims themselves? I mean, instead of insulting the survivors, maybe he should have shown up and listened to the survivors. The survivors are the ones who want this bill. And of course, it protects the victims because we worked with the survivors in drafting the bill.

RAJU: What will happen if the Senate now changes to accommodate the Speaker's demands?

KHANNA: Well, that's the D.C. swamp. That's the D.C. game. They should pass this bill. This bill is going to pass overwhelmingly in the House. This bill is supported by President Trump.

[14:10:00]

And the Senate may try to dilute it, so that the American people don't know which rich and powerful men actually visited the Epstein Island and raped these young girls or abused these young girls. But too much scrutiny is there. Any Senator is introducing amendments to dilute the bill, the entire American people are going to pay attention.

RAJU: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And the big question now will be just how many people will vote for this on the House floor and then how the Senate processes this bill. There are a couple of options for the Senate Majority Leader, John Thune here. He can try to quickly pass this bill in the United States Senate by unanimous consent. That means all Senators would have to vote to agree to pass this bill. One Senator could object and slow things down. Will that actually happen? Or will there be an effort to try to change the bill the way that Mike Johnson has wanted to?

But if he does do that, that's going to cause a lot of pushback within the ranks. And also, we'll leave this political hot potato in the lap of the Senate Majority Leader. And that is exactly what the Republicans have tried to have had to grapple with here in the United States House for months. This has been dogging the Republican agenda for so long. The Speaker has made -- taken all sorts of steps to try to delay this vote. It became inevitable when enough Republicans joined with Democrats to force a vote, circumventing his opposition, making this moment happen at this moment, right now.

And it was this president too who had been opposed to this bill for so long, but ultimately Sunday night said, vote for this bill. And it wasn't because he necessarily wanted it, it was because we expected a huge amount of Republicans to buck him, defy him, maybe even a veto- proof majority. Ultimately, that's why the president got on board here, seeing the writing on the wall. But no doubt about it, this is going to be a huge moment, a sign of where the party is, where Congress is. And the question is going to be, what the impact ultimately will be and if these files will be released after years- long effort by these victims of Jeffrey Epstein.

SANCHEZ: And after years' worth of promises by President Trump and his allies that this would happen. In fact, it wouldn't have come about, this discharge petition, if they had fully followed through on those campaign promises. Manu Raju, live on Capitol Hill, thank you so much. We're joined now by CNN's Jeff Zeleny and also with us; Sarah Fitzpatrick, an Investigative Reporter who covered Jeffrey Epstein extensively; and Will Sommer, Senior Reporter with The Bulwark. First to you, Jeff. It's really stunning that we're about to watch what may be a unanimous vote on something that the Republicans, who supported this initially, faced huge blowback from the White House on.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Without a doubt. I mean, this is a remarkable moment coming up on several levels. The politics of it, first and foremost, this will be the first time that we will see House Republicans effectively defying the president, not only in this term, but in the first term as well. So look, we do not know how many times this will be repeated going forward, but it is the undeniable fact that President Trump is not driving this train anymore.

Yes, it is still his Republican Party in every way. However, on this measure, which we should remind people, it started because of his own supporters. It started because he fueled this fire a year ago. He twice pledged, at least twice that I recall during the campaign, that he would release the files. And one sort of botched moment after another this year has led us to where we are now in November. This could have been resolved months and months and months ago, but it's not. But the vote is interesting.

But also, I talked to a House Republican earlier today and this house Republican is going to vote yes. And they're pleased that the White House sort of gave them the permission structure to do so because this Republican has a tough race next year. So that's another thing going on here. Republicans are going to vote for it, hoping to kind of move it on. But what happens in the Senate is going to be an open question. But, we could not have imagined a few days ago that the president would be signing this legislation. I think it's headed in that direction now, which is quite remarkable.

KEILAR: We are going to take a quick break and be right back with our panel. We are awaiting this vote on the full release of the Epstein files. An extraordinary day on Capitol Hill. We'll be back in just a few moments.

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[14:17:29]

SANCHEZ: Breaking news to CNN. In just moments, we are going to watch the House vote on the release of the full Epstein files following a discharge petition that the White House has objected to. And now the vote is beginning, as we speak. It's notable the sort of course that the White House has taken on this, going from initially vowing that all the Epstein files would be released if the president was elected during last year's campaign, to then being opposed and even threatening lawmakers like Kentucky's Thomas Massie who supported this discharge petition and also putting pressure on others like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert, et cetera.

We do wonder though, as we bring our panel back in, Sarah, Will, and Jeff, what do you think is going to come of this vote? Are we going to get, at the end of the day, a full release of these files? Or do you see more hurdles coming soon, Sarah?

SARAH FITZPATRICK, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: So I think this is a really extraordinary moment in which the public's trust in the justice system and in fact, Congress, Republican Congressmen's trust in the justice system is such that we don't know if we are really going to get the full documentation because this investigation has been so mishandled from the White House, from the Justice Department all the way on down for decades. I think it's always going to be an open question, regardless of how much material is ever released, whether or not there had been some kind of interference for political reasons or otherwise.

KEILAR: How do you think, Will, the president's supporters are viewing this moment?

WILL SOMMER, SENIOR REPORTER, THE BULWARK: I mean, they're very interested in this story. I mean, we saw in the summer, the White House tried kind of a whitewash, told everyone to get over it and move on. Some people in right-wing media latched onto that after Trump told them to do so, and it didn't work. I mean, the reason we're about to see what might be a unanimous vote, people like even Mike Johnson are likely to vote for it, is because there has been so much pressure from all across the political spectrum in terms of voters, a lot of independent voters who voted for Trump, and also a lot of Trump supporters.

People like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who was deep into these kind of human trafficking conspiracy theories and also the Epstein case. I mean even -- I mean obviously, she's flipped on Trump as well, and so that's just one example.

SANCHEZ: Let's go live to Kaitlan Collins who is at the White House right now. And Kaitlan, a moment ago, I said that the White House had sort of exerted some pressure with Republican lawmakers. It is unclear that they did that with Lauren Boebert. I just want to be clear about that because I mentioned her name. She did get a briefing in the Situation Room, we understand, trying to answer some questions related to the Epstein files, but there certainly was pressure put on Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene recently, who the president described as a traitor.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean it wasn't described even to us as a briefing.

[14:20:00]

That was kind of how the White House Press Secretary portrayed it, Boris, at the briefing that day. But what was described to us by our sources was it was a pressure campaign, very clearly, to try to get Lauren Boebert ultimately to change her vote on that discharge petition from being a yes to a no. It did not work, of course it failed. Those four Republicans held together and ended up being the final signatures on this vote once the House Democrat Adelita Grijalva was sworn in to actually become the 218th member. And so, very much this is something that the White House did not want to be happening, this vote on Capitol Hill right now. It was only really once it became inevitable for President Trump that you saw that reversal in his position over the weekend where he said, sure, all House Republicans can vote on this. I want to get it over with and stop having it distract from what I have been working on. And so obviously, that has changed. And really it was just essentially a moment where, really unlike one that we have seen since Trump came back into power back in January, where House Republicans were ready to defy him in large numbers.

And that was a calculation the White House quickly understood over the weekend after those 218 votes came together. And that is really why we saw this change. But I think the open question here is still what the White House wants to happen here, if that's actually going to go forward, which is to move on from this. Because as Manu was laying out earlier, this now only sets up the questions about the Senate voting on this and what's going to happen after that, and if the president is actually going to sign it.

And even then, what this Justice Department would do, given it is supposed to be actively investigating only the Democrats who were named in that new release last week, and also whether or not more emails are coming from the Jeffrey Epstein estate because those emails last week didn't come from the Justice Department. They were because of a bipartisan subpoena on Capitol Hill to Jeffrey Epstein's estate. And Robert Garcia, the top Democrat on that committee, told me last night that they believe they're going to get even more of those emails.

KEILAR: Yeah, and the -- we should note as well, Kaitlan, the DOJ could also have subpoenaed those. We heard the Speaker saying that's really been kind of the bonanza for them, right? As they've looked for, or as Congress, some in Congress have looked for information here.

Jeff, I want to ask you, because the optics of the president being a latecomer to support this, they're not great. But did he really have a choice? Because imagine the optics, if the president were still not supporting this and this vote was taking place -- as we keep our eye in it, all yays, no nays.

ZELENY: Look, the optics aren't great. I mean, Trump has been on many sides of this issue, but the one most recently has been against releasing any Epstein files. And he wanted to move on. He's expressed great frustration and sort of bewilderment at why his party would not move on from this. But it's almost as though he wasn't paying close attention last year during the campaign when he was, and his supporters were driving so much of this. So I'm told a couple things. One, he knew the vote was going to be not as lopsided as this. I mean, had he not come out in support, there would've been many House Republicans, or at least some House Republicans who would've stuck with him. But no one with a tough race, no one has -- who might be running for the Senate from the House.

I'm thinking of Ashley Hinson, for example. She's a House Republican in Iowa. She is running for Iowa Senate, to fill Joni Ernst seat. This has become an issue in her campaign by Democrats saying, is she going to vote on this? How is she going to vote? Now, she has the permission to vote for the release of this. So look, the president, was doing the best face-saving measure possible on Sunday evening by coming out and saying, "Oh, I don't care what they do. They can vote for it. That's fine." So it gives the permission structure, which we see is happening at this moment.

But, this is still infuriating to the president. And what happens in the Senate will be very fascinating. This has not been a Senate issue. Now, it soon will be a Senate issue. And he's likely, again, like I said before, I think he'll have to sign this into law which no one would've predicted that just a few days ago.

SANCHEZ: It is possible this has a veto-proof majority. We'll have to see what happens. Let's go to Manu Raju, who is tracking this for us. And Manu, we learned that just as Jeff was speaking, House Speaker Mike Johnson himself voted to advance this discharge petition.

RAJU: Yeah, he voted yes on this. And the Speaker doesn't actually have to vote on legislation, oftentimes does not vote, but decided to do so here. And right now, this is a unanimous vote. It's still ongoing. 118 and counting, 120 votes now on my phone here. It says 58 Republicans and counting on 59 Republicans. This is probably going to be a unanimous vote, which is such a remarkable turnaround, not just for the House, but for the Speaker who had did -- tried to deny this bill from coming for a vote because of he raising a number of concerns, really siding with the president's opposition for such a long time.

[14:25:00]

But now, coming to this side after the president reversed course, the speaker himself also reversed course, but the speaker was sharply critical of this bill. Just moments ago, you heard him on the House floor contending that this bill does not adequately protect victims and the like. And I put that question about the speaker's criticism to Thomas Massie, the Republican from Kentucky, who is leading the charge for this bill and he has some sharp words in response to the speaker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: -- now railing on this bill, he says that it was poorly drafted, does not protect the victims as well. What do you say to him?

REP. THOMAS MASSIE, (R-KY): Well, he's trying to -- he's trying to say that rich and powerful men who were on the plane to Epstein Island are now victims. That they would be victims because their names would get disclosed. Like, look at his PowerPoint presentation today. He's creating a new category of victims. So I think that's how a Christian man can stand up there and say a lie like that, is he's got something in the back of his head that makes it OK.

But if he had real concerns, he could have introduced his own legislation. Look, the reason they're in there debating this is we dragged him kicking and screaming into it. They hated it. They've tried to stop it the whole time. And by the way, I love Jim Jordan. He wouldn't give me 15 seconds of time to debate this bill on the floor of the House today. That's why I had to claim time during the rule debate. Jim McGovern granted me control of about half of his time, and that's when I yielded time to Nancy Mace and Marjorie Taylor Greene. And we had our side of the debate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, you mentioned on your floor speech that if this does go to the Senate, that there'll be -- Johnson is looking for a loophole for amending this. Can you explain a little bit about that?

MASSIE: Yeah, they -- you have all these discussion about judicial norms. You have some lawyers in here, particularly on my Judiciary Committee who say, oh, you don't release grand jury material, that violates judicial norms. Well, what -- the problem is our judicial system has been woefully broken and corrupted over the last couple decades. And the Epstein case is an example of that. He wants to create a provision of this law that would exempt the very people we're trying to expose, which are the men who flew to Epstein Island and -- or in New York City and raped these women. That's what -- that's what speaker -- the result of Speaker Johnson's legislation that he wants.

Now he says, oh, we'll make sure that they are credible allegations. Well, this begs the question, is he calling the survivors who witnessed here today at the House Triangle in our press conference, incredible or uncredible or unbelievable? That's the implication.

RAJU: What's the impact, if the Senate does in fact change this bill?

MASSIE: They're part of the cover-up and these bozos here, like, they pretend like, OK, now we're ready to pull the Band-Aid off after five months of shooting themselves in the foot, politically and morally. They're ready to pull the Band-Aid off. But the reality is, Speaker Johnson's press conference shows that he is unrepentant. They have a backup plan, and I think it's going to work poorly for them, by the way.

By the time they get done with trying to cover up, by having these other investigations or having amendments in the Senate, they're just going to make more people complicit. Like it takes somebody to offer those amendments and then they're going to have votes on those amendments. And I would encourage them to pass this bill as is, put it on the president's desk. It's got protections to prevent the release of child pornography. That's a lie the speaker -- like, go read the bills, guys. It's right in there. It's got protections to protect the act --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So the question is going to be, will the Senate in fact change this bill or accept it as is? Because right now, this is a unanimous vote, still no, no votes here. A stunning turnaround. And look at the big magic number here is that when it reaches that two-thirds threshold, that's enough for passage. 290 votes in the United States House, it is very clearly going to exceed that and much, much more. Guys? KEILAR: Yeah, veto-proof majority very likely here as we're looking at no nay votes. Manu Raju, thank you so much. And we're watching the time countdown. That clock will go to zero. You may not see everyone vote by then. They'll hold it open, just so you're aware when it gets to zero, very possibly, unless everyone rushes and we see everyone, but characteristically, Congress kind of takes its time. The House does take its time there.

Will, I wonder if you can kind of speak to the fact that, I mean, look, child sex -- sex trafficking, child sex trafficking, it's a crime. It's a problem in America. It's a real thing. It's also the source of a lot of conspiracy theories on the far right. Right? Pizzagate, QAnon, it's an obsession. And that explains why the president wasn't able to get people just to move on. Can you talk about -- this is something that has been sort of years in the making, this support that the president was not able to overcome.

SOMMER: That's why this is such a --