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Trump To Meet With New York City Mayor-Elect Mamdani At White House; DOJ Admits Only Two Grand Jury Members Saw Final Comey Indictment; Zelenskyy Expected To Meet Army Secretary To Discuss New Peace Plan. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired November 20, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: And I agree with Matt that I think that for both of them they need a political foil. And I think for the president's team Mamdani serves as a great foil and Mamdani's election was largely centered about running against Trump.

I think unfortunately though -- you know, despite their need to both have foils, John, with Mamdani looking to have the government take over grocery stores and this administration looking to have more and more state-owned enterprises, they may find they agree more economically than one might think.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I did not have that on my bingo card, Marc Short. You know, a traditional Republican looking for the wraparound there between Mamdani and Donald Trump on government takeovers there.

I do want to talk to you both about the economy. We get the jobs report for September, which has been delayed until now because of the government shutdown. That comes out in one hour from now exactly.

And before that came out there's a doozy of a poll from Fox News that came out overnight on the economy and the president's approval. It found that 76 percent of voters -- 76 percent view the economy negatively. That's up. That is worse than it was at the end of President Biden's term.

And in this poll voters says that it is President Trump who is more responsible by about two to one. I mean, 62 percent says Trump is more responsible for the economic conditions. Just 32 percent say Biden. And look among Republicans there. I mean, even among Republicans Trump is barely ahead.

Marc, what do you think of these numbers? How much of a weight now is the economy on this administration?

SHORT: I think it's a huge weight. I think it's the -- it's the seminal issue for them. I think they know that from what the November polling suggested from the elections. I think they know we're heading into the midterms next year, which is why you hear the president now talking about affordability and understanding that the cost of living is a big issue for Americans. You saw him going to McDonald's earlier this week for their big event to talk about affordability.

So I think the administration understands it. What I don't know, John, is whether you see any change in direction because I think that their trade agenda continues to damage the economy and hurt jobs.

I think for President Trump, he was elected to fix the border and to lower inflation and heal the economy. And whether you agree with how he's done the border, he's been incredibly successful in making sure there's no more of the chaos that there was in the Biden administration.

But on the economy, you continue to see cost of living numbers high. The jobs reports the last several months have been incredibly meager. And you're not going to see all the furloughed employees and those who took buyouts at the end of September 30 until you get -- now that the December jobs report since there isn't going to be one announced from October.

So I think that these job numbers continue to be pretty meager, and I think the economy is a huge challenge for this administration right now.

BERMAN: So Matt, what does that mean for Democrats? They just had a very successful off-year election -- New Jersey, Virginia.

MATT BENNETT, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS AND CO- FOUNDER, THIRD WAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY ASSISTANT, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: Yeah.

BERMAN: What does it mean for Democrats looking to 2026?

BENNETT: Look, we have a message, and the message is you can't afford to live in this -- in Donald Trump's economy. He owns this economy now. We are 11 months into this administration trying to blame Joe Biden for this. He's falling completely flat, as you say, even among Republicans.

And what you saw from Mikie Sherrill in New Jersey, and Abigail Spanberger in Virginia, and even from Mamdani here in New York is a relentless focus on affordability does move numbers. Sherrill and Spanberger won seven percent of Trump voters from 2024. These are people that swung pretty quickly back to Democrats. I think you're going to see that again in '26.

BERMAN: Hey, very quickly, Marc Short, to you since you are part of the sort of the veep alum club having worked in the vice president's office under former Vice President Mike Pence.

Today is the funeral for former Vice President Dick Cheney. All living former vice presidents will be there. But President Trump and Vice President Pence (sic) not invited -- former White House -- excuse me, current Vice President JD Vance not invited.

What do you think about that? I mean, clearly, there's bad blood between the Cheney family and the Trump administration, but what about their absence at this funeral?

SHORT: I think it's too bad. I think that Dick Cheney is an amazing American story. A guy who was elected to Congress, rose to leadership and later served as chief of staff at the White House. Was Secretary of Defense during the first Persian Gulf. Was obviously vice president in America's response to 9/11. He's a giant American political figure who is a patriot.

Who has -- I think, obviously those on the left will not -- will view him as a more controversial figure. And it's clear that those in the current administration don't relish his legacy either.

But he's been clearly an American giant and somebody who has an amazing legacy and I think, you know, his remarkable life should be celebrated by all.

BERMAN: All right, Marc Short, Matt Bennett. Great to see you both. And Matt, nice to see you in person. Marc, we missed you -- Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right.

New this morning a former congressional staffer found bound with cuts all over her body and graphic slurs written on her is now being charged by the Justice Department for allegedly staging her own violent assault. Prosecutors accuse Natalie Greene of paying a "body modification scarification artist" $500 to slice multiple cuts onto her body, face, and neck.

[07:35:07]

The DOJ says Green's co-conspirator called 911 one night in July, saying she and Greene had been attacked by three men. When officers arrived at a wooded area in New Jersey they found Greene "crying and screaming with her hands and feet bound with zip ties and dozens of cuts on her."

The accomplice told police that the attackers referred to Greene by name and knew that she had worked at Republican Congressman Jeff Van Drew's office. Officers also found graphic messages about President Trump and Congressman Van Drew written on Greene's body in black marker.

Greene allegedly told them the assailants had a gun, threatened to shoot her, and held her down while they cut her and wrote on her body.

Investigators say it was all a lie, and now Greene is facing charges of conspiracy and making false statements to law enforcement. She could, if convicted, get up to 10 years in prison -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: I mean, there's a lot going on on that. My goodness.

Also there's this, this morning. It appears that the Justice Department's case against the former FBI director James Comey is on shaky ground. The reason, the prosecutor handpicked and installed by President Trump admitted in court yesterday that the full grand jury did not see the final indictment against Comey.

And Lindsey Halligan was already in something of hot water over how she was present -- had presented the case to the grand jury. A judge earlier this week made a rare decision to order prosecutors to hand over to Comey's team all of the grand jury materials. That is after the judge read through the grand jury transcripts and says that in -- what he saw suggested that Halligan had given the grand jury improper instructions and may have also shown privileged evidence.

The Justice Department is defending her, saying this, in part. "The U.S. Attorney did not misstate the law, the grand jury was not misled, and the transcript shows a routine, regular presentation of the indictment."

Leaving it now a real question that could the entire case against Comey get thrown out.

Joining us right now is the former U.S. attorney for the Middle District of Georgia, Michael Moore. It's good to see you.

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA, PARTNER, MOORE HALL: It's great to see you here.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much.

The full grand -- let's start -- let's take it in pieces --

MOORE: Sure.

BOLDUAN: -- because there is quite a bit, right? The full grand jury not seeing the full -- the final indictment. Two grand jurors did.

How out of bounds for grand jury practice is this?

MOORE: Kate, there's nothing about this case that's normal and this is clearly out of bounds and I think probably -- I think fatal to the case.

BOLDUAN: You do?

MOORE: Yeah. The grand jury is told that they have to consider the evidence and review the indictment. You can't review an indictment that's not been given to you and that's going to be, I think, an issue that hangs up the cord in this.

And, you know, this case really -- you've talked about a couple of things.

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

MOORE: It really has sort of died a death by a thousand cuts. And this is just another thing -- another misstep by the department as they've tried to move forward on a case that they really shouldn't have brought in the first place.

BOLDUAN: The -- what the Justice Department is saying about this one is that it materially was not different. They didn't -- they didn't want to -- they were not going to go on one count. So they went back, renumbered the charges, and that was the only change. That it was more clerical than material.

How is -- how is the judge to consider --

MOORE: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: -- you think is going to handle it?

MOORE: I think the judge will see the fact that the indictment needs to be laid on the table, we call it --

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

MOORE: -- in prosecuting. It needs to be laid on the table in front of the grand jury. And that's a safeguard to make sure that somebody after the fact doesn't go in and monkey with the indictment and try to change --

BOLDUAN: Even if it's small, it has to be final -- yeah.

MOORE: Right, even if it's small. I mean, and it takes nothing to run next door to the office or have a staff member bring a corrected copy over, but you've got to give it to the grand jury. And it sort of keeps, as well, if you were to have foreperson or somebody else who might be signing off -- going rogue -- that they might approve something that wasn't actually voted on.

BOLDUAN: What do you think about this other element -- the other problem that she's -- that Halligan is now facing? The judge went back and read the grand jury transcripts and said that Halligan implied that Comey would need to testify in order to win his case. And also implied, according to the judge, that the Justice Department may be bringing in better, additional evidence later.

Justice says the judge is misunderstanding the transcripts. What do you think?

MOORE: I think that's a stretch for the department to say anything. I mean, you cannot tell --

BOLDUAN: If the judge is saying it, the judge is saying it.

MOORE: Right. I mean, the judge -- the judge reads transcripts all the time. This is what they do. You can't tell a grand jury that a criminal defendant has to testify. That simply is against the Constitution -- a Fifth Amendment right.

And this idea that there may be other evidence out there and that well, we've got better stuff we're going to give you. Look, the prosecutor does not have to put on all their evidence in a grand jury.

BOLDUAN: OK.

MOORE: It's a very truncated proceeding. I mean, it's really limited. You usually have one or two witnesses, and you go in and present some evidence to establish probable cause. You don't have to put your whole case on. But to somehow suggest that we might not have enough now but we'll get enough later -- that tells me there is a problem.

BOLDUAN: Michael, so adding it kind of all up -- because James Comey is fighting this --

MOORE: Sure.

BOLDUAN: -- and his argument is that this is selective or vindictive --

MOORE: Right.

BOLDUAN: -- political prosecution.

[07:40:00]

Does what you have with the missteps, at minimum, from Halligan in front of the grand jury -- does that add to that argument or are these now two separate problems for this case?

MOORE: It adds to the argument because really, the whole idea about whether or not she should have even been appointed is a question and whether or not --

BOLDUAN: Right.

MOORE: -- she's qualified to do that, right? I mean, that would be like somebody asking me to pitch the World Series game. I'm not -- I wouldn't be qualified to do that, you know, right? I may have two arms but that doesn't make me a baseball player. She may have a law degree, but it doesn't make her a U.S. attorney, right, or a prosecutor here. So you've got that.

You've got this idea that maybe information was either withheld because parts of the transcript were missing. You've got the idea that maybe they were advised wrongly on the law. Now you've got the idea that the -- or the claim and the fact that the grand jury did not see the whole indictment.

So you take all of these things together and it plays into this argument about selective or vindictive prosecution because it gives the appearance that this has been nothing but just a fast train moving forward after Trump made his social media request --

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

MOORE: -- to indict his enemies, you know, and he named some folks. But to move this thing forward. And they brought in somebody who was willing to do it.

You know, the problem here is that prosecutor and a lawyer is not supposed to be just a sycophant to the president. He ought to be willing to push back. You ought to be saying it to say no, there's not enough evidence here. There's -- I don't think in my prosecutorial judgment that there's enough to go forward. She did not do that.

And so you've all these things that come together to give the judge any number of reasons to dismiss the case.

BOLDUAN: It's going to be very interesting to hear what the judge has to say when he decides to make this decision and yesterday saying that there is a lot that needed to be considered and so not making a decision in court yesterday.

MOORE: Right.

BOLDUAN: It's great to see you.

MOORE: It's great to see you. Glad to have you here.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much for coming in -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right. Thank you, Kate.

New this morning President Trump suggesting treasury -- suggesting and actually saying Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent could be out of job if the Federal Reserve doesn't cut interest rates.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The only thing Scott's blowing it on is the Fed because the Fed -- the rates are too high, Scott. And if you don't get it fixed fast, I'm going to fire your ass, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: OK.

Trump has repeatedly criticized Fed chair Jerome Powell for not cutting interest rates fast enough, but they did lower interest rates in September for the first time in nine months. It made another quarter-point rate cut last month.

The Fed makes their policy decisions based on economic date, not presidential demands, and it was having to make these decisions without key data because of the government shutdown.

But the long-awaited September jobs report finally comes out in the next hour. Economists expecting to see 50,000 jobs added in September and the unemployment remaining at 4.3 percent. That is the expectation.

Joining me now to discuss Madison Mills, senior markets reporter for Axios.

It isn't Bessent who makes the decision to cut interest rates, so why is Trump going after him? You know, obviously, he kind of smirked and people laughed, but it's a pretty rude thing to do to your treasury secretary.

MADISON MILLS, SENIOR MARKETS REPORTER, AXIOS: Your treasury secretary, yeah. And I don't think he's going to do it, right? I don't think Bessent's job is at risk here. But I do think it points to President Trump's focus right now, which is really this crisis of affordability.

And we've seen the administration moving to tackle that issue through things like 50-year mortgages, for example. Potentially a stimulus check from tariff revenue. A lot of TBDs on both of those policies.

But the interest rate set by the Federal Reserve is a key part of that affordability issue, especially when it comes to housing. And Trump has been very focused on this. He's a real estate mogul. Of course, he wants interest rates to be low. But the treasury secretary has nothing to do with the interest rate. That is set by, of course, the Fed chair and the broader Fed committee.

SIDNER: So he's threatened the Fed chair many times --

MILLS: Um-hum.

SIDNER: -- to try to get him to lower interest rates. He's threatening Bessent now.

I mean, does this mean anything to the market or is the market sort of like this is white noise to us because it happens a lot?

MILLS: It happens a lot. And also, Wall Street is so focused on a slew of other issues right now. The fact that economic data wasn't coming out over the last six weeks. Obviously, we're getting that jobs data later today. The AI bubble question. NVIDIA earnings were yesterday. I don't think anyone was even really tuned into this investment forum on Saudi Arabia because of that.

And also, Wall Street has learned to kind of tune out any sort of personnel changes from the president. Even this question about whether Powell was going to be fired didn't really move the market much, which is a huge deal to have your Fed chair fired.

But people were confident that Bessent would actually be in the room as this voice of reason. And I don't know that the president really likes when Wall Street starts talking about Bessent being the calm voice of reason and mover of the administration, so that could also be part of why this comment was made, too.

SIDNER: I do want to ask you how important the September jobs report is. It was delayed because of the shutdown. It is coming out in, you know, less than an hour now. I mean, is this going to be a big part of the decision that the Fed makes today?

[07:45:00]

MILLS: It is because the Fed is so data dependent. The problem is that they've been very focused on making sure that their decisions can be justified by the data and you need the data to be good to be able to continue to have that thesis behind how you move.

And then this data coming out today -- it's September. Like, the labor market moves so quickly that's not going to do very much for us. The Fed is going to make its next decision for December several days before we get the October and November jobs reports, and those months are typically a little bit more of a peak in hiring. You're hiring ahead of the holidays. So if those months are weak that could really determine where the Fed goes, and it's going to be too late.

SIDNER: Wow, all right.

Madison Mills, thank you so much. A lot to discuss.

MILLS: Yes.

SIDNER: John.

BERMAN: All right. The urgent search for survivors after a new Russian attack on Ukraine. And new concerns about concessions to Russia in a new peace plan being discussed by U.S. officials.

And it may have helped save the bald eagle but new moves -- well, that's not a bald eagle right there but you can see some of the animals that have been saved with the Endangered Species Act. But now there are moves to roll back part of that cherished legislation.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:50:17]

BOLDUAN: So this morning an urgent search is underway for survivors in Ukraine after Russian airstrikes hit two apartment buildings in the western part of the country. The massive attacked killed more than two dozen people, including children. President Zelenskyy, of Ukraine, is warning that the death toll could rise as he says people are still trapped in the rubble. A Ukrainian official also suggests entire families are missing right now.

Also this morning Zelenskyy is expected to meet with U.S. Army Secretary Dan Driscoll, who is in Ukraine with other top Pentagon officials. And on the agenda, very clearly, will be President Trump's new plan to end the war in Ukraine that the U.S. is quietly hammering out with Russia.

According to Axios, who is reporting on this, the current draft focuses on 28 points, including security guarantees for Ukraine and Europe. But Axios also reports the proposal would grant Russia a key part of Eastern Ukraine that it does not currently control. Russia would win de facto power over the Donbas despite Ukraine still controlling parts of it.

One Ukrainian member of Parliament telling CNN that this plan is ludicrous and amounts to surrender for Ukraine.

Joining me right now is CNN global affairs analyst Brett McGurk for much more on this. And there is much more to learn about what is in this 28-point plan as reported by Barak Ravid on Axios -- of Axios.

But how big of a concession, Brett, is control of the Donbas for Ukraine? Is it ludicrous, as that MP says?

BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, FORMER MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA COORDINATOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL, SENIOR FELLOW, HARVARD'S BELFER CENTER: You know, Kate, I think two months ago I wrote a piece for CNN that said winter is coming for Ukraine, and I think right now it is winter in Ukraine.

Not be the season but if you see what's happening over the last month, massive attacks from the Russians. Over 5,000 drones and 200 missiles. The other attack just last night killing a number of civilians. Putin going after that energy infrastructure and making incremental gains in the east, but not very many gains. He's made about 100 square miles over the last six weeks at great cost to the Russians.

But yet, this proposal -- and as someone who has been a diplomat leading high-stakes negotiations, I'm always a little skeptical of leaks of what might be on the table. You never fully know.

But this area that would be conceded under this deal, as has been reported, Kate, in the Donbas, the Ukrainians call it their "fortress belt." It's the area where they want to make sure they can defend it because if they give it up their future of sovereignty and territorial control is very jeopardized.

So what has always been discussed here to set the table going back to that summit in Alaska in August, Kate, was some combination of a -- the line on the map has to be agreed, but then security guarantees for Ukraine. Because Ukraine has to be assured that if it actually makes some concessions it's not just setting the stage for a future war two years from now, five years from now.

And we don't know the details of what the security guarantees would be --

BOLDUAN: Right.

MCGURK: -- but what has been reported about those territorial concessions I think would be very difficult for Ukraine to set. And I just don't see the table set right now for a deal like that.

BOLDUAN: Two other pieces, again, of what is being reported out about this proposal is the areas in the Donbas that Ukraine would withdraw from that it currently has control over, right, would be considered a demilitarized zone with no Russian troops allowed. But also, a Ukrainian official reportedly said that the plan also included limitations on the size of the Ukraine military going forward and its long-range missiles -- long-range weapons in return for these security guarantees.

I'm looking at these elements, if you will, and I am just wondering if Ukraine doesn't like the deal as it's being presented, if this is how it's being presented, what kind of corner does this now put Ukraine in? MCGURK: Extremely difficult, Kate. Look, I don't think this will work. On diplomacy -- to really -- to get something done conditions have to be set and as a diplomat you have to work with other elements of power to set those conditions.

I've seen it reported the administration is drawing some parallels to the Gaza deal.

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

MCGURK: And, you know, the Gaza deal was done after -- frankly, you can draw a straight line from the 12-day war with Iran in June to that Gaza deal because Hamas really was completely isolated. Iran was off the table. Hamas' leaders had been killed. And Trump built up leverage with Israel to say this is it. Set the conditions and got that deal.

Right now, the conditions are not set. I think Putin thinks he can make more gains over the winter. And Ukraine is not going to make those concessions under fire without a real security guarantee. And that other element, which you just said, Kate, to basically it has to cut its army in four -- in half. It can have no foreign partner troops on the territory of Ukraine. That's a real breach of its sovereignty.

So I'm skeptical. We all want this war to end.

BOLDUAN: Right.

[07:55:00]

MCGURK: This war is horrific. You just led with that attack last night. This has to stop, but to make it stop you've got to build up some more leverage with the Russians. I've said this a number of times.

BOLDUAN: I actually was --

MCGURK: Otherwise --

BOLDUAN: I was going to actually quote you to you because that is one of the elements that you and I have talked about so many times. No matter what is happening one thing you've said so many times is getting just even a ceasefire from Russia requires, as you put it, deliberate and serious pressure to force him to the table.

And I'm curious, is -- do you see any element of that?

MCGURK: Yeah. Putin has to realize that his desire for Ukraine will eventually culminate because he cannot -- the costs are too unbearable for him. He's not at that point yet. He's taken over a million military casualties.

But, I mean, some things the Trump administration did in the last month are very good. They put very extensive sanctions on Russia's oil and gas industry. Those are starting to have an effect but it's going to take some time. I think the best play here is to use the winter. You've got to gird

through the winter. You've got to help the Ukrainians with the power and heating situation and make sure they have what they can have to defend themselves. The Europeans, through NATO, are doing a lot of that. But then look to the end of the winter to kind of set the conditions for diplomacy. Right now I don't see the table set, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Um.

Brett, it's always great to see you. Thank you so much -- John.

MCGURK: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. New this morning investigators are looking into what caused an explosion at an Atlanta apartment building. The building was vacant but nearby buildings were damaged. One person did suffer serious burns. The blast blew the door off one unit sending it several feet in the air. One woman said it blew out her window.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I put the kids to sleep around 8:30-9:00 and we just heard a boom and the windows blew. My kids were asleep, so it was hard to function because I was screaming "wake up, wake up."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The building management company says this was caused by a gas leak after someone broke into a vacant unit to steal copper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: He controls one of the most prolific and violent drug trafficking organizations in this world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: This morning the FBI has added former Canadian Olympic snowboarder Ryan Wedding to its top 10 most wanted list. Authorities have been searching for Wedding for more than a year. He is charged with running a drug ring that authorities say shipped large amounts of cocaine from Colombia through Mexico into the U.S. and Canada. Wedding faces charges in the U.S., Mexico, and Canada. The DOJ raised its reward for his capture to $15 million. He is believed to be in Mexico.

A little piece of Chicago has made its way to Vatican City -- an exclusive four-pack of beer from a local Chicago brewery delivered by Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker. The beer is fittingly named "Da Pope." It honors Pope Leo's roots and is a play on the "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE" sketch about "Da Bears." The Vatican has yet to confirm or deny if Pope Leo has tried the beer, but I think we all know what's really happened there.

One Tennessee kitten has some extra head gear. Noggin -- that's really the cat's name -- is blind and recently had an accident fracturing her skull. So a student at Chattanooga State designed a custom helmet to protect Noggin as she recovers. Also, it makes her look very tough. Once she is healed Noggin will be up for adoption -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right. Thank you, John.

New this morning environmental advocates are sounding the alarm. The Trump administration is moving to strip protections for endangered species and their habitats. The White House says the Biden era measures are too restrictive and hurt the economy.

Here with me now is CNN chief climate correspondent Bill Weir. This is quite a list of beloved -- especially, animals in places like Florida.

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. This -- according to one spokesperson from the Center for Biological Diversity -- they said we assumed Trump would attack wildlife again. But this dumpster fire of a plan is beyond cruel.

And what it does is go back -- takes us back to 2019. Many of the changes he tried to make there were undone by the Joe Biden administration, but changing the rules around protecting ecosystems around the most vulnerable species out there. The big one would be economic consideration for stakeholders.

So, for example, if you tell a timber company you can't cut this forest down because of endangered owls or some other creature there, they could say well, that's going to cost us x millions of dollars. And that is a math that has never been used when it comes to saving particular species or very delicate entire ecosystems right now.

This will be fought in court as it was in the first go-around. There's a 30-day public comment period that happens starting Friday there, and then it will take a couple of years for them to change these rules.

But as you mentioned, so many beloved creatures -- the red wolf, black-footed ferret, Florida panther, Hawaiian monk seal in danger. We've got the white whale in the North Atlantic, the condor out in California, and sea turtles as well.

The Endangered Species Act has brought back songbirds and different species through the years.