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Former Special Counsel Jack Smith To Testify Privately On Capitol Hill; White House Reeling Over Trump Chief Of Staff's Bombshell Interview; Police: Person Of Interest "Casing The Area" Before Deadly Shooting. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 17, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:30:40]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So former special counsel Jack Smith headed to Capitol Hill this morning, set to testify in a closed-door deposition before the House Judiciary Committee all about his investigations and prosecutions of Donald Trump. The focus likely -- centrally on the cases that he built against Trump on the alleged mishandling of classified documents and Trump's role in trying to overturn the 2020 election result.

Smith was subpoenaed to testify by the Republican chair Jim Jordan who has called Smith's investigations into Trump "partisan and politically motivated." Smith has long, though, offered to testify voluntarily in a public setting -- in a public hearing before the committee. President Trump has even said that he would like to see that. But no, the committee is keeping this behind closed doors today.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is tracking this one for us. Katelyn, what are you hearing is going to happen today?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well Kate, the House Judiciary -- they want to dig into and scrutinize what Jack Smith did as special counsel. What his investigations into Donald Trump's handling and keeping of classified records at Mar-a-Lago after the first presidency -- what they found in that investigation and what they found around January 6 and Donald Trump. What he was doing as the mob was overtaking the Capitol.

Jack Smith -- he wants to speak. And then Donald Trump, the president -- he says he wants to see Smith in jail -- behind bars.

All of that creates a very high-stakes moment today on Capitol Hill even though Smith is going to be testifying in a transcribed interview. We're not going to be seeing what he says publicly.

There is a lot to be watching for today that we're going to be trying and learning, Kate. We're going to be trying and learning the substance of what Smith says to the committee. What were his actual findings and legal reasoning for the decisions he made in the investigation of Trump when he was special counsel. We're also going to be looking for what the committee is asking him,

especially the Republicans on that committee. They have really wanted to grasp onto this idea that there was political -- politicization of that office in some way that disrupted the steps they were taking as prosecutors upholding justice.

One of the issues they've taken -- they've pulled out here is the idea that smith or investigators before he was appointed special counsel had subpoenaed phone call logs of members of Congress. We do expect Smith to say that was a lawful and very typical investigative step.

But it's a real legal tightrope. He can't say too much. He could be prosecuted for that. And he can't say too little. He could face a criminal referral from the House Judiciary Committee -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yeah, and then publicly criticized when he doesn't say something because he can't because a judge has not allowed the release of the final reports of these said investigations. So quite a tightrope today.

Katelyn, thank you so much -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. New this morning, the White House -- Susie Wiles, the White House Chief of Staff -- they have been going after Chris Whipple and Vanity Fair for the truly stunning piece inside that magazine where they -- can you scroll back so I can see what exactly the quote was there? Thank you. Wiles called the interview in Vanity Fair magazine "a disingenuously framed hit piece" and that "significant context was disregarded." That's what they said about what was in Vanity Fair.

Chris Whipple, the author of that, spoke with Anderson Cooper last night. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS WHIPPLE, WRITER, VANITY FAIR: You know, Anderson, this was one of those cases as a reporter in your career when lightning strikes. And it was astonishing to me the extent to which she was unguarded and freewheeling on the record -- Susie Wiles, in 11 interviews over 11 months.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: That's how many there were -- 11 interviews over 11 months?

WHIPPLE: Eleven in-depth interviews in which she was on the record. Everything in the article is -- was on the record.

COOPER: Were you recording every interview?

WHIPPLE: I recorded every interview.

COOPER: Even ones that were on the phone that she -- there was one where she was doing laundry, apparently.

WHIPPLE: Yeah, everything is on tape. COOPER: Are things out -- taken out of context because some of the

quotes are -- they're tight. I mean, they're just -- it's like they're (INAUDIBLE).

WHIPPLE: Everything is -- was scrupulously in context.

[07:35:00]

And I've got to tell you, the giveaway when you're a journalist and you hear your -- the target -- the subject saying -- talking about things like context and omissions, you know you're on the right track because there isn't a single fact or a single assertion that they've challenged in the piece.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. With us now, Democratic strategist Julie Roginsky, and CNN political commentator and host of the "Off the Cupp" podcast, S.E. Cupp.

So the context here is I'm interviewing you a lot and I'm recording it, and you're the White House chief of staff. That seems like pretty good context.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, HOST, "OFF THE CUPP" PODCAST: On the record. On the record.

Listen, I think we can all think of a time when there was too much access given in an interview, right -- access to, like, the gym, right? We can remember. This doesn't usually work out well because every second you spend with a reporter is another opportunity --

BERMAN: It took me a second there but go ahead -- you can go ahead.

CUPP: I think you know who I'm talking about, and Kate does too.

But every second you spend is another opportunity to kind of step in it -- and especially as you get more comfortable with an interviewer as Chris is seeming to imply. You just kind of let it -- let it loose. It's ego, it's hubris, it's feeling like I'm smarter and I can control this narrative. Not in 11 interviews you can't.

BERMAN: So I asked both of you for a little homework assignment to tell me what quotes from in here you thought would stick. I mean, it's been a day but will linger past today.

And Julie, you talked about what Susie Wiles said about Letitia James, the attorney general of New York, and the investigations and indictments against Letitia James.

And so let me read this. "So all of this talk," I said "about -- this is Whipple saying -- "about accusing Letitia James of mortgage fraud..." And then Susie Wiles says, "Well, that might be the one retribution."

And then Whipple says, "So you haven't called him out on that, or said, 'Hey, wait a minute.'" And then Wiles says, "No, no, not on her. Not on her. She had a half a billion dollars of his money!"

Now the context here, to use a Susie Wiles line, is she was claiming oh, there's no -- this is not a retribution tour. This is not a retribution tour. But here in that quote that I just read, Wiles says Letitia James -- that one might be retribution.

JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, CO-FOUNDER, LIFT OUR VOICES: Well, first of all, she doesn't know the difference between on the record and off the record --

BERMAN: Yeah.

ROGINSKY: -- which is stunning for a chief of staff. But more relevantly, she first said that he had 90 days to get all of his retribution out of his system. So it wasn't just Tish James, right? It was everybody else. Then she proceeds to say well, Tish James is the one retribution.

What I think is relevant about this is not just that Abbe Lowell had the best day of his life yesterday reading this quote, but I think the other thing that's relevant here is what you're seeing and what you just reported on with other people who are being dragged before the House who crossed Donald Trump in his mind in some way by doing their job. That's part of the retribution tour.

And so it's not just about Tish James. It's about the fact that anybody who has ever done anything that Donald Trump considers to be something wrong to him is now going to be dragged into either the Justice Department -- the way Tish James was, the way James Comey was -- before the House. And over and over and over again until Donald Trump gets it out of his system.

In this case she said well, can you blame -- can you blame him? She had half a billion dollars of his money. She didn't have half a billion dollars of his money. A jury found that Donald Trump did something wrong and then awarded him this money that actually got -- or awarded this penalty that actually just got overturned. She doesn't even know about that.

So the whole thing, to me, is stunning because it underscores the fact that Donald Trump is here purely to get revenge against his enemies.

BERMAN: And S.E., when I asked you what would stick you talked about her discussion on tariffs and the economy. And Susie Wiles said, "There was a huge disagreement over whether tariffs were a good idea."

Why do you think that's so important?

CUPP: Because it's the economy, stupid. And we're coming into a midterm election, and the economy is not good -- and voters for, like, the first time are blaming Trump for that. And they acknowledge and recognize that tariffs are a huge reason why.

And so if Susie Wiles, the closest person to President Trump in the White House, is admitting on the record we did not agree -- all of us -- with the tariffs. A lot of us had pushback. Trump owns this wholly and has to be responsible for pushing this very unpopular policy that even economists agree this is going to go badly for you. He owns this, according to Susie Wiles.

BERMAN: But I read in The Wall Street Journal just the other day an interview that Donald Trump did with them where he said, "I've created the greatest economy in history.

ROGINSKY: Hmm.

CUPP: Hmm.

BERMAN: But it may take a while to figure all these things out."

CUPP: Oh, that went really well for Joe Biden. When the Biden administration said lagging indicators -- that's why you don't feel great about the economy -- lagging indicators. No one is soothed by lagging indicators.

BERMAN: I assume that's what the president will address -- talk about when he addresses the nation tonight from the Oval Office. He, I think, wants to talk about the economy.

ROGINSKY: That's a brave assumption because he's been going off the rails so much lately, we don't know what he's going to say. That's probably within the teleprompter. I'm not sure that's what he's -- what he's going to deliver.

Look, nothing is going well for him and the biggest issue here that I think is not going well for him is that Vanity Fair is the epitome of the coastal elites that he has been deriding for his movement for the last 10 years.

[07:40:00]

And if you're some MAGA person who believed in Donald Trump and thought that Donald Trump was standing up to the MAGA elites for you, what you realize after reading that article is that every single person in Donald Trump's inner orbit rushed to pose for Vanity Fair, rushed to talk to Vanity Fair, rushed to suck up to Vanity Fair. The same people that host the Oscar parties. The same people that lunch at Michael's. The same people who have no time for your typical MAGA adherent.

He betrayed you, MAGA. Like, he betrayed you. Look at me. He only wants to get in with the same coastal elites that he derided. And you saw that when you saw all of these people posing for these flashy, wonderful, Oscar-worthy photographs like they were George Clooney and Amal Clooney. It's a -- it's a joke.

BERMAN: I will say one thing. The fact that everyone is rallying around Susie Wiles -- what it says to me is they all think she's really important --

CUPP: Yeah.

BERMAN: -- inside that White House from the president on down, and they're not sure they want to go forward the way they are without her.

CUPP: Yes. And it says to me the conjecture that she is trying to leave in some explosive way or sabotage -- I don't buy that. I do not believe that. I believe that ego and hubris got the best of her and everyone else that sat for that interview and they thought we can control this narrative. No, you can't.

BERMAN: But it's clear they still want her there, at least for now --

CUPP: Yeah, yeah.

BERMAN: -- no matter what the fallout is.

S.E. Cupp, Julie Roginsky, nice to see you both. Thank you very much.

CUPP: You, too.

ROGINSKY: Thanks.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: This morning the sister of one of the two Brown University students killed in Saturday's mass shooting is speaking out. She says nearly 100 people have reached out since the horrible tragedy sharing love and stories about her brother who planned to one day be a neurosurgeon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMIRA UMURZOKOVA, BROTHER KILLED IN BROWN UNIVERSITY SHOOTING: He was the most kind-hearted, funny. He was the most -- he was the smartest person I've ever met. He -- you know, he always helped someone before he helped himself, you know, without any hesitation. I want people to know that him and the other victim -- they're not just numbers, they're not just statistics. They're real people and real families are genuinely hurting like crazy because of their loss.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: So yesterday authorities released, as you can see here, newly-enhanced video showing the person of interest that they are searching for. Investigators now say the man was in the area for at least five hours before the attack. And they're urging the public to focus on his physical aspects -- his body movement, his posture, his gait that you can see in these videos -- as potential identifiers to try to finally crack this case.

Joining us right now for some perspective on how to do that is former Boston police commissioner Ed Davis. It's good to see you, Ed.

Now, into day five of this manhunt, what's your --

ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER (via Webex by Cisco): Thank you.

BOLDUAN: -- top focus and thought on where this investigation is right now?

DAVIS: Good morning, Kate.

There are a few things that happened in the last 24 hours that I think are important.

I would point to a statement made by Attorney General Peter Neronha about the nature of leads that they're chasing down, and he even went so far as to say that he expected an apprehension in the near future. You don't -- as a public official, you don't make a statement like that unless you're on to something. So to me, that telegraphs some strong leads that they're working on right now.

The other thing I think is really important is the clothing that the suspect is wearing on two fronts. One is that that's a rather unique jacket that he's got on. Um, it's a large size and it's a unique kind of design.

And I think they can check with manufacturers. I'm sure they already know who the manufacturer of that jacket is. And then they can look for distribution outlets in the area and start to comb through those lists of people who have purchased that jacket over the last year or two. That may give them the lead that they need. It was -- a clue like that was really helpful in the -- in the Boston -- in the Washington bombing case.

So there's a lot going on right now and I'm satisfied with that because it takes a while to get this video compiled and run down leads like I just mentioned that they're in a good place right now in the investigation.

BOLDUAN: And speak -- and speak to this for us because there can sometimes be in conflict when there is someone on the run, a community in fear, a tragedy that's occurred, and the need for -- and the desire for more information. People saying that they're surprised that this person hasn't been found yet. Speak to that as an investigator.

DAVIS: Well, I've been through this exact same set of circumstances --

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

DAVIS: -- when we put the photos out expecting to get a phone call in hours and it didn't happen. It wasn't until the suspects became active in the Boston Marathon case that we got onto them. But people recognized them and some of their friends not only didn't tell the police, but they took active measures to destroy evidence and try to protect the suspects despite the heinousness of the crime.

[07:45:10]

That could be happening right now. That video of the suspect -- if you're related to him or you're familiar with him -- the clothing that he wears, the way he walks, the way that man is carrying himself, even the way he runs -- those are clues that if you're very familiar with the suspect are going to point to him. And tragically, no one has called yet. So hopefully, they're struggling with that right now and will eventually make the right decision because they are in legal peril if they don't call.

BOLDUAN: An excellent point.

You know, and also, you can -- you can speak to this as well from your -- from your experience. The mayor of Providence has been out there and speaking to the public -- and everyone is very thankful for that to continue to get information out there -- and has been asked a couple of times if the community is safe while this man is still on the run, and that may be a hard thing to answer when you don't know where the person is.

But I want to play for you what he said on CNN yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR BRETT SMILEY, (D) PROVIDENCE, RHODE ISLAND: The leads that we're running down are giving us more information regularly, but the location of the individual right now is not known. My message to the community is that we are doing everything possible to help them take the first tentative steps forward because one way or another, right now, residents -- you know, my neighbors -- you know they still need to go work. The kids still need to go to school. And so we're providing enhanced police protection and visible coverage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Is the -- is the harsh reality is that the community can't be assured that they are safe because they don't know where he is? I mean, how do you ensure public safety when you don't know where the man is?

DAVIS: Well, there's a few things that you can do that are happening down there right now.

You increase visibility. You make it almost impossible for someone to return to the -- to the area because of the enhanced police resources that you put out there. But in the final analysis, you cannot be sure. Someone can drive in at a high rate of speed, commit crimes, and go out in a blaze of glory. So you -- so you really have to hedge the comments you're making about this.

I feel bad for the mayor and the police chief because they understand that there's a possibility here that something else could happen. It's a remote possibility because of the number of resources that they have in the area, but you never know.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

Ed Davis, it's always good to have your perspective. Thank you so much -- John.

BERMAN: All right. New this morning, a second near-collision in the skies near Venezuela just one day after a similar incident. This one involved a private jet and a U.S. Air Force refueling tanker.

This is one of the pilots of the private jets moments after it happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRIVATE JET PILOT: We just got that traffic. I don't know how we didn't get an RA for that, but they were really close.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. This is the second reported near-collision near Venezuela in two days. Last month the FAA warned U.S. airlines of heightened military activity over that country.

With us now is Brad Bowman, a former Black Hawk pilot. Brad, great to see you.

Just two near misses in the same general area. How alarming is that?

BRAD BOWMAN, FORMER BLACK HAWK PILOT, FORMER COMMANDER, 12TH AVIATION BATTALION (via Webex by Cisco): Thanks for the opportunity to join you, John.

When I look at these back-to-back aviation incidents, they're different -- the two of them -- but they're both deeply concerning. Thankfully, the disaster was avoided and no one was injured in either case. The commercial pilots took appropriate action to maintain separation and to report the incident. So hopefully this doesn't happen again but if changes aren't made, I -- we -- you know, we may not be so fortunate in the future.

And when you have commercial aircraft and military aircraft conducting combat operations in close proximity with one another that is obviously a dangerous mix. Why is that? Well, the military aircraft don't want to be seen by the adversary, obviously, because that means they might get shot down.

So that means they're going to -- as they approach the area where they are or might be conducting combat operations, they're going to turn their transponder off, you know. If you are the one in the cockpit or a parent or loved one of those servicemembers, that's exactly what you'd want them to do.

But obviously, efforts to make sure that the adversary can't see you also means that air traffic control and commercial pilots can't either. And so that's why you have to have procedures in place to avoid such things like this.

And I would just add that the FAA did issue notices on November 21 warning pilots and airlines to exercise caution in and around Venezuela to avoid risk, and they repeated that on Tuesday.

But the traveling public -- these pilots -- they have a right to -- they have reasonable concerns here and I have sources in the military that tell me that they saw these commercial aircraft and were taking appropriate steps. But this was, indeed, deeply concerning.

[07:50:00] BERMAN: Whose job is it to deconflict when these jets get close?

BOWMAN: It's a -- it's a fair question. It's the job of every pilot, whether commercial or military, to ensure that they maintain separation with other aircraft, so it's the job of every pilot. The FAA has issued these warnings. That's the FAA doing their job. These commercial pilots did their jobs fully by having their transponders on and contact -- and coordinating with ATC and taking appropriate action.

I really think that we need to be scrutinizing whether it makes sense right now what everyone thinks of what's happening in Venezuela. And I have concerns whether it makes sense right now for commercial airlines to be flying through an area where the FAA has explicitly issued warnings. And we may have imminent increased combat operations as we speak.

BERMAN: Yeah. They can just choose to go elsewhere and not go in that area, correct?

BOWMAN: Right. No, I mean, this is major inconveniences to the lives of the traveling public and not great for these airlines. But in the end, right, you're talking about a war zone, and an FAA warning has been issued. So I would not be advising my loved ones right now to be anywhere near that area.

BERMAN: Brad Bowman, great to see you this morning. Thank you very much.

So we've got new reaction this morning to the highest unemployment rate in years. All the blue-collar jobs that were promised -- where are they?

And the woman who married her AI-generated boyfriend. This appears to be the ceremony with her AI-generated boyfriend. When it's complicated goes viral.

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[07:56:17]

BERMAN: All right. New this morning, President Trump had promised his policies would result in a blue-collar job boom when he returned to the White House, but nearly a year after taking office again, what's going on?

CNN's Matt Egan with the latest on this. So is there a boom?

MATT EGAN, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Yeah, not so much, John. And look -- I mean, the president on the campaign trail -- he didn't just promise that blue-collar jobs would increase, right? He did promise this outright boom driven by lower taxes, spiking tariffs, and also keeping energy cheap.

Take a listen to candidate Trump on the campaign trail last fall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, THEN-CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will attract energy-hungry industries. There are a lot of industries who will never be able to make it in certain areas because they don't have energy. But we have energy-hungry industries, and we'll attract them from all over the planet, meaning millions and millions of blue- collar jobs and jobs of every type.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

EGAN: Millions and millions of blue-collar jobs.

So look, the latest federal data shows that not only is that not happening but a lot of the industries that are traditionally considered blue-collar -- they're actually cutting jobs.

Mining and logging lost an average of 2,000 jobs over the last three months. Manufacturing down by an average of 6,300. Even bigger losses for transportation and warehousing, down by 17,000. That's per month over the last three months. The only bright spot has been construction, which was shedding jobs earlier this year but now it's enjoying a bit of a rebound.

Now, looking particularly at manufacturing since that is the heart of the strategy here when it comes to tariffs, manufacturing employment is now down to the lowest level in 3 1/2 years. So the exact opposite of a boom.

Now, some of the pressure on manufacturing -- it happened before this year, right? When you look at the trend for jobs added and lost over the last two years or so, there were some months last year where there were some significant job losses. That's on the left side of that bar chart there. But there were also some months were jobs were actually being added.

And what stands out to me is on the right side of that chart, that's this year. And the job loss has actually been more consistent. Manufacturers have cut jobs every single month since April. And April, of course, is when the president rolled out his Liberation Day tariffs.

So why is this happening with all the pressure on blue-collar jobs? It's a number of different reasons, right? It's automation, it's a struggle to find skilled workers, and economists also say part of the problem is, yes, it's the tariffs. The uncertainty caused --

BERMAN: Yeah.

EGAN: -- by the trade agenda.

Now, it's entirely possible that there is a jobs boom coming for blue- collar workers. It just hasn't arrived yet. I mean, you can't build factories overnight. That's going to take time.

And some economists I talked to -- they're hopeful that there will be a rebound. Not a boom but maybe a rebound next year. And John, let's hope so because the stakes are just massive for the families and the local communities who are hurting right now.

BERMAN: Yeah, certainly in the blue-collar community. But overall, the unemployment rate is up quite a bit this year.

EGAN: Yes, 4.6 percent.

BERMAN: Matt Egan, thank you very much.

EGAN: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: So there are new details coming out this morning about a deadly explosion at a Florida jewelry store that happened earlier this month. The explosion was captured on surveillance video -- we will show you this -- from across the street. Just look at that.

The owner of the store, Wendy Davis -- she was injured in that blast, and she was then hospitalized for several weeks from her injuries. And we just learned that she passed away yesterday from those injuries.

Officials say a gas leak was ultimately what led to the explosion, though they are still investigating what caused that leak.

A man from New York is now under arrest and accused of stealing a Ferrari in Miami and then crashing it. Just keep watching and you will see it.