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U.S. Taking Control of Venezuelan Oil?; Nicolas Maduro Pleads Not Guilty. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 05, 2026 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

REP. PAT RYAN (D-NY): And I understand, very much understand the need for operational security. This is -- we have to get beyond that and recognize this is an act of war to say we're going to run another sovereign nation and that the people and the Congress have to be a part of that conversation.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Congressman, really appreciate you being here.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Thank you all for rocking and rolling during this hour, during that really incredible hearing. Appreciate it.

Thank you for joining INSIDE POLITICS.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Thank you so much for sharing your afternoon with us. I'm Boris Sanchez, alongside Erica Hill, in the nation's capital.

And we begin with breaking news out of Lower Manhattan, ousted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro pleading not guilty to drugs and weapons charges inside a U.S. federal court. Maduro telling the judge -- quote -- "I am innocent," saying he was kidnapped, referring to himself multiple times as the president of Venezuela.

His wife, Cilia Flores, was beside him, also entering a not guilty plea.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: And we have been watching live pictures as Maduro makes his way back to the Brooklyn detention center, where he and his wife are being held.

CNN's Omar Jimenez and Laura Coates joining us now from live outside the court.

You were both in the courtroom.

So, Laura, walk us through, first of all, what you saw, what you heard in those moments.

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: What an extraordinary moment, Nicolas Maduro appearing in a Manhattan courtroom with his wife, proclaiming to still be the president of Venezuela and she, the first lady.

They had on headsets to have translation available to them. They spoke in Spanish. And at the first available opportunity for Nicolas Maduro to address the court, essentially to say his name, he said instead he was a prisoner of war, that he was in fact Nicolas Maduro, that he'd been taken from his home, captured from his home.

The judge interrupting him to say that there would be time to talk about the legality of his taking, as well as any motions he wanted to raise. But, for now, I just want to know if you in fact are Nicolas Maduro. He said that he was and also that he was innocent and had not committed any of these crimes.

He was almost stoic, Omar, as you saw him in there.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

COATES: And he was very, very confident and self-assured. His -- he had some difficulty sitting down in his chair, having to brace himself continuously when he would try to sit down.

You note, when he was walking on that, it really was kind of a perp walk, to the helipad, his left leg appeared to be straighter than the other, and he was -- a little difficulty. That appeared to be present as he tried to sit in the chair.

His wife, meanwhile, they said that she had obvious, visible injuries. They addressed -- you could see her bandaging, some kind of a gash for -- stitching on her eye, also on her temple. And, also, they referenced that she had some sort of fractured or bruised ribs as well, her demeanor much less confident than her husband's, far more demure, spoke after they did.

And they exchanged glances at different points in time. He had one request, he did not want to have bail discussed right now. That's coming. But he did want to have his notes. He took copious notes, Omar.

JIMENEZ: Yes.

COATES: You were watching intently as well.

JIMENEZ: Yes.

COATES: When you were watching this take place, weren't you struck by the way this all proceeded?

JIMENEZ: Yes, I mean, just the confidence of Maduro, as you mentioned, when truly you pay attention to any trials like this, the judge asks, do you plead guilty or not guilty? And usually the attorney even just speaks for the defendant and just says, not guilty. That was the opportunity that Maduro used to go out and say that, I am

the constitutional president of Venezuela, that he believes his rights have been violated, talking about the abduction aspect, saying he was kidnapped from his home in Caracas, and launched into that in Spanish, as the interpreter kept up with that as well.

When his wife began to speak -- you sort of mentioned the dynamic between both of them. There was a moment where the judge asked if they understood the interpretation, and he sort of spoke for both of them and said, "Yes, we understand," and then she, of course, spoke in after that as well.

You mentioned the medical issues. That was something that the defense asked of the judge to make sure that they had proper care to take care of some of those issues, because clearly she seemed to be struggling in some way, whether it was swaying a little bit, as was relayed by one of our team members.

COATES: Dipping her head at different times.

JIMENEZ: Dipping her head at different points, and then, of course, as you mentioned, Maduro appearing to struggle to stand up and sit down at points.

COATES: And there was a moment they asked for the consular.

JIMENEZ: Yes, there was a moment they asked for essentially what is afforded typically to either heads of state or folks that are coming in from other countries, that they have the ability to consult with the Venezuelan consular in this case.

And they said that that is something they are going to pick up and going, intend to use prior to this next March 17 date that was set, because there's so much discovery to go through. And then there was that moment at the end.

COATES: Well, there is.

JIMENEZ: Yes. Yes.

COATES: And before we get to that, it was also the idea, March 17 is the next time they're going to be in court.

JIMENEZ: Yes.

COATES: They have agreed to waive their speedy trial rights until that time.

JIMENEZ: Right.

[13:05:00]

COATES: Remember, if you are in the custody of the American government as a part of the justice system, you are entitled to speedy trials. They have waived that until March 17 to address not only voluminous

motions, including immunity claims as a head of state, which may or may not be granted, but also the idea of having all the discovery.

And, finally, there was a protester at the end...

JIMENEZ: Yes.

COATES: ... which our own news associate who was there to witness as well, Gordon Ebanks saw, standing up, addressing and confronting Maduro, saying: "You will pay for what you have done."

SANCHEZ: Wow.

COATES: Maduro, in turn, looked at him, pointed to the sky, said he was a man of God and was the president of the Republic of Venezuela.

SANCHEZ: Incredible color from inside the courtroom.

Laura Coates, Omar Jimenez, thank you so much for that update.

Let's get a legal perspective now with former federal prosecutor and former JAG officer Margaret Donovan.

Margaret, thanks so much for joining us this afternoon.

How does the judge go about determining whether Maduro is afforded that immunity as the head of a foreign government that Laura was just pointing out? He keeps repeating that he is the constitutional president of Venezuela, and yet he's going to wait until March 17 for his next court date.

MARGARET DONOVAN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes. So that is a predictable defense that he might bring. And it's an interesting one. It may prevail in other instances. Certainly, there is somebody in the United States who feels very strongly about being immune from criminal prosecution when you are the head of state.

But I think, in this instance, the DOJ's likely response, and I think it'll be a persuasive one for the judge, is that Maduro is not a legitimate head of state and that most international organizations and other nations and the United States itself does not recognize him as the legitimate head of state.

So that, I anticipate, will be the DOJ's main response if he tries to raise that as a defense. I think what's more interesting is his claim that he is a prisoner of war, because what he is basically saying is that the United States is engaged in an international armed conflict, which, of course, we have heard the secretary of state and the briefing from Saturday morning, most of the Cabinet swearing up and down that this is not a armed conflict and we're not at war and this is just a law enforcement operation.

What I think will be problematic for that analysis going forward is a few things. First of all, I know very few arrests, I can name none, that resulted in between 40 to 80 casualties and involved the number of airstrikes that this one did and the military intervention in order to effectuate his arrest.

Second, we have been blowing up people in the Caribbean since September and saying that we cannot afford them legal process because we are at war, we're in an armed conflict, in a non-international armed conflict in that instance.

So that is a very inconsistent position that the United States government has taken. And I think Maduro asserting his rights as a prisoner of war and saying that he's in an armed conflict is going to force the government to litigate that in federal court, which is I can't imagine where they want to litigate that fight, but here we are.

HILL: But to that point then, does that need to be litigated first before we can even get to this next step of Maduro's trial? Margaret, I don't know if you could hear me.

DONOVAN: If there is audio, I'm not hearing it.

HILL: I think we may have lost Margaret's audio. We're going to try to get her back, but obviously a lot to chew over, right? They will have to determine the answer to that question, of course.

But, also, as Margaret raises, such an interesting point, based on what we heard from the administration prior with these strikes on alleged narco-drug boats -- I think we may have Margaret back.

Margaret, you were talking about the fact that it would need to be litigated, what we have heard from the administration about the strikes on these alleged drug boats, versus what we are seeing and what, as you noted, has been described by the secretary of state and many others in the administration as a law enforcement operation.

Does that need to be answered first before we can even move on to the next phase for Maduro?

DONOVAN: Yes, I think it does, because you have to determine whether or not he's a criminal defendant or whether or not he's a prisoner of war and whether or not the laws of armed conflict apply to his arrest or whether we're just talking about a very basic federal arrest of things that we arrest people overseas all the time, not heads of state, but we do, do extraterritorial arrests quite commonly in the Department of Justice.

So I do think that that's going to be something that gets litigated at the outset, as well as the sovereign immunity defense that he's raised and I'm assuming will litigate through and through.

The other point that I want to make out that's interesting in the context of the indictment and what he was arraigned on, there are no capital offenses listed in the indictment. The highest punishment that he is facing in this is life imprisonment.

So, again, going back to what we have been doing in that region since September and using lethal force against basically the people who are the lowest on the food chain here, here, we have the top of the alleged criminal organization in court and he's not even facing a capital offense.

Now, I'm not saying that he should, but I am saying that that's a very inconsistent position, with killing people that are basically at the bottom of the organization, being the drug mules, and, of course, he's not being tried for anything involved in fentanyl.

The other sort of interesting fact about the indictment and how the trial will proceed is that these are old defenses. Maduro was indicted in 2020, but the original co-defendants in this case were indicted all the way back in 2011.

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And so the government is going to have to reach back and presumably has cooperators or recordings or strong evidence that's going to be more than just people's memories for what happened from basically early 2000 and on.

HILL: Certainly a lot to dig into.

Margaret, really appreciate it. And thanks for sticking with us through those audio issues as well.

DONOVAN: Yes.

HILL: As we look at all the legal issues, of course, surrounding Nicolas Maduro and his wife, there are also questions about what is happening right now in Venezuela and what happens next.

The country's National Assembly kicking off its new legislative session today, doing that issuing a defiant message, demanding the U.S. release Nicolas Maduro and his wife, while also promising to -- quote -- "resist the arrogance of the enemy."

SANCHEZ: Lawmakers also reiterating that Executive Vice President Delcy Rodriguez is now the acting president following an order from the Venezuelan Supreme Court on Sunday.

We're joined now by journalist Mary Triny Mena, who is in Caracas for us.

Mary, definitely a softer tone from Delcy Rodriguez on Sunday, inviting the U.S. to collaborate on something she called an agenda of cooperation. I mean, that's very different from saying, we're not going to be colonized, we're not going to be slaves to the United States. How is that sitting with people in the capital of Venezuela?

MARY TRINY MENA, JOURNALIST: Yes, that's a significant shift in the speech of the -- coming from the government that is now ruling the country, but they say they will continue doing both things, demanding the release of Nicolas Maduro and also engaging into conversations.

The session of the Parliament right now is happening, and they are concentrated in that. Actually, they have a portrait of Maduro and Cilia Flores. Cilia Flores was one of the lawmaker of that National Assembly of the Parliament of Venezuela. And they are honoring her, showing the place that -- where she used to sit. And they are showing that. They are showing their respect to those authorities, but also saying that the country should continue its work.

So they are using a double speech for the society, saying the country should be continued without Maduro because we don't have him right now and also saying they will continue in the streets demanding his release. This is basically what they are saying, especially another lawmaker, Nicolas Maduro Guerra, son of Nicolas Maduro, said that basically the United States is harassing him and his family.

SANCHEZ: Mary Triny Mena, thank you so much for that report from Caracas, an interesting update there, the National Assembly coincidentally meeting today for the first time this year with all of this happening.

Still to come this afternoon: President Trump says that Venezuela might not be the last country to face American intervention. The reporter who spoke to the president on the phone in the hours after Maduro's capture joins us live on CNN.

HILL: And an investigation now under way after Vice President Vance's home in Ohio was damaged. One person is now in custody.

We have that and much more ahead right here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[13:17:46]

SANCHEZ: With Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro now in U.S. custody, facing federal charges, President Trump has made clear he has big plans for U.S. energy companies taking control of Venezuela's rich oil supply.

Venezuela has some of the largest proven oil reserves in the world, though it only accounts for about 1 percent of the world's oil production.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Venezuela right now is a dead country. We have to bring it back. And we're going to have to have big investments by the oil companies to bring back the infrastructure. And the oil companies are ready to go. They're going to go in. They're going to rebuild the infrastructure.

The oil is just flowing at a very low level, much lower than -- even if it was badly run, it should have more income, more oil than what they're doing. So we're going to have the big oil companies go in. They're going to fix the infrastructure and they're going to invest money.

Right now, what we want to do is fix up the oil, fix up the country, bring the country back, and then have elections. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN's Brian Todd joins us now with a closer look.

Brian, obviously, a very resource-rich country.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, look at this, Boris, the largest oil reserves in the world by far, 303 million barrels. The next closest to them is Saudi Arabia with like, I think, 267 billion barrels.

They just -- they outnumber everyone in that resource by a lot. They have one-fifth of the world's global reserves. And to let you -- kind of give some perspective here on how they're underperforming with that vast oil reserve, take a look at this.

This is their oil production since Nicolas Maduro took power in 2013. You see it there. Now, before that and, like, even before Hugo Chavez took power in 1999, they were producing more than three million barrels, about 3.5 million barrels per day...

SANCHEZ: Wow.

TODD: ... before Hugo Chavez takes power in 1999, OK? It goes steadily down in the 2000s because of sanctions and other things.

Maduro takes power in 2013. Now, oil prices take a hit the next year, so that's part of the reason that they decline. But it's also, of course, his alleged mismanagement of the oil supply and a lot of other factors. Sanctions also play a part.

Now, in 2019, that is the year that Donald Trump in his first administration placed restrictions on Venezuelan oil exports to the U.S. So that hit them hard. It went down then. They hit rock bottom in 2020 with the pandemic. In 2021, Maduro starts to kind of ramp up the production a little bit.

[13:20:04]

In 2022, then President Joe Biden gives Chevron a temporary permit to operate there. So that helps their production. But, again, Boris, take a look. They're still underperforming. As of 2024, there were less than a million barrels a day. Right now, there are a little over one million barrels a day.

They're right about at this point here. And that is less than 1 percent of the world's production. That's how much Venezuela is underperforming, given their reserves there. Who are they sending the oil to? Let's take a look at that, if my graphic can come up here. It's not coming up.

But, basically, they're sending it mostly to China.

SANCHEZ: China.

TODD: China buys about 70 percent of Venezuela's oil. The U.S. buys about 25 percent of it. That's all due to Chevron's production there.

SANCHEZ: I think -- there we go.

TODD: There you go. There's our graphic.

SANCHEZ: Yes, right.

TODD: So, again, China's the big -- they're the big customer.

SANCHEZ: Right.

TODD: U.S. gets about a quarter of it. Then Spain and Cuba trail far behind. This is all due to Chevron.

And Chevron, their stock is way up today as a result of this.

SANCHEZ: Right.

TODD: And, Boris, it has taken a massive toll on the economy overall.

(CROSSTALK)

TODD: Take a look at that. Last October, inflation in Venezuela was at 270 percent. That is by far the highest in the world. And look at where it's projected to be in October of this year, and, again, all because of the mismanagement and the alleged corruption of Hugo Chavez first and Nicolas Maduro, his acolyte, who became president in 2013.

SANCHEZ: Brian Todd, thank you so much for bringing us that context -- Erica.

HILL: Well, with Maduro now in U.S. custody, there are new questions about just how far President Trump's vision for so-called American dominance in the Western Hemisphere will extend.

The president and his administration have issued warnings to several countries, including Colombia, Cuba and Iran. He also repeated his claims of a domestic need for Greenland. A new article in "The Atlantic" reports Trump said it was up to others to decide what U.S. military action in Venezuela means for Greenland, but the president telling the magazine -- quote -- "But we do need Greenland, absolutely. We need it for defense."

Joining me now is staff writer for "The Atlantic" Michael Scherer.

You, of course, spoke with President Trump for that interview in "The Atlantic." When you were speaking with him, when Greenland came up, he almost made it sound like, oh, I hadn't really thought about that. You know, Marco Rubio, sort of, he's very flattering to me, I guess.

Did you get a sense, though, from the way he was speaking that Greenland could in fact be next on his list?

MICHAEL SCHERER, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": Well, that was the question. That's why he sort of backed away. I asked him whether his press conference on Saturday, in which Marco

Rubio says you got to listen to what the president says, don't play games with him, in which Pete Hegseth said, if you eff around, you're going to find out, whether that was a message to Denmark, which now controls Greenland.

He didn't want to say that. But he also didn't want to back up down from his position on Greenland. So I think this is still in negotiation. We saw after that interview published yesterday the Danish government shifted its position much more publicly, much more concerned, basically saying any attempt on taking Greenland by hostile force will be a violation the NATO charter.

HILL: Right. You have also the European Commission speaking out, the German foreign minister fairly forceful in his comments as well, talking about how Denmark, of course, is part of NATO.

SCHERER: That's right. Yes.

HILL: Based on your conversation -- I should just point out we're looking at live pictures here of the motorcade there in New York with Nicolas Maduro.

Based on your conversation with the president, you spoke about the Monroe Doctrine with him when it comes to Venezuela. Is it your sense that -- he talked to you about, this isn't about location. He said this is about the country. Is every country sort of now fair game?

SCHERER: Yes, so the context of that, I have been struck, having covered the Iraq invasion in the early 2000s, having covered his 2016 campaign, which was explicitly against the sort of nation-building we did in Iraq, against regime change wars, how this HAS shifted so dramatically.

And I said, so do you explain Venezuela because it's in our hemisphere? And he said, no, it's a country-by-country thing. So he basically has shifted dramatically in how he sees the U.S. projection of force abroad.

And I think he thinks he can have this sort of influence, this military influence in a sort of semi-remote way. We're not seeing this sort of ground invasion. We saw in Iraq or Afghanistan, where troops are on the ground. He thinks he can project power from the air essentially.

HILL: And to that point, right, because you covered that, but also because you brought it up with him, and there have been a lot of questions about what we saw in Iraq, for example, versus what could be happening in Venezuela.

When you asked him about that, he said: "I don't know. Go ask former President Bush."

SCHERER: Yes.

HILL: Do you think he under -- I don't want to, does he understand, but I guess in some ways it is. Does he understand that people are raising that as a valid concern? Does he see a cautionary tale there, or no because he's always been against it, he says?

SCHERER: I think he sees himself in a very different position. And he's confident that he won't end up in that sort of quagmire.

I don't know if that's the case. I mean, I think that the Venezuelan people and the Venezuelan government do have some leverage here. The president for political reasons does not want to get bogged down in a military conflict with troops on the ground, Americans being attacked in a foreign country. It would not be popular. It was not the mandate he was elected with.

I think the president believes, though, they have greater leverage and they're working now with the vice president of Venezuela and they can avoid that situation from coming to pass. I also think we don't know what's going to happen. This is very much a live negotiation that's happening right now.

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HILL: It is. And we're even seeing sort of a little bit of a dance publicly between the president and the vice president, the acting president of Venezuela.

SCHERER: That's right.

HILL: When you spoke with him, did you have any sense that there had been perhaps private conversations, private conversations with Delcy Rodriguez before this action or any sort of an agreement with the administration?

SCHERER: There has been some reporting about that. The president said on Saturday that Marco Rubio had spoken with -- the secretary of state -- spoken with Delcy Rodriguez.

The president said last night on Air Force One that there were continuing conversations. So I think there has been an assumption from the beginning that she could be a partner. I don't think her behavior has -- her public statements have fully confirmed that. I mean, her statement she gave on Saturday was pretty bellicose.

HILL: Yes.

SCHERER: Nicolas Maduro is our president. This is a colonial invasion. We are going to push back.

She put out a statement after that interview in which the president effectively threatened her, said she's going to pay a big price if she doesn't do the right thing, maybe a bigger price than Maduro. She put out another statement last night saying we want to talk with the U.S., but she's still talking about the sovereignty of her country.

So we don't know where this is going to head. The other issue at play here is that the vice president does not control the entire government apparatus. There's other officials in that government that have independent power. She's not the direct commander of the Venezuelan military, which is really the X-factor here.

If the Venezuelan military decides not to go along with this or in a worst-case scenario breaks up and its assets kind of disappear for sort of an insurgent effort later on, I mean, there are a lot of dangers here that the U.S. is trying to negotiate its way through.

HILL: Yes, absolutely, a lot of things in real time, as you noted.

Michael, really great to have you in the studio. Thank you.

SCHERER: Thank you.

HILL: Just ahead here: One man is in custody, an investigation now under way after an incident in Vice President Vance's home in Ohio.

Stay with us CNN those details.

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