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Remembering Civil Rights Leader Jesse Jackson; Chip Massey is Interviewed about the Guthrie Case; Rep. Johnny Olszewski (D-MD) is Interviewed about Amendment for Pardons; Raul Torrez is Interviewed about a Lawsuit Against Meta. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired February 17, 2026 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Among independents, in fact, the number is closer to minus 50 on the net approval. If it's absolutely terrible among the center of the electorate, among Republicans, look at this, GOP who approve of Trump, immigration, the economy, foreign policy, trade and tariffs, all of them basically between 77 and 85. But look at the Epstein case, just 55 percent of Republicans approve of Trump on the Epstein case. It is something that divides Republicans and is something that the overall electorate really doesn't like.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I mean they love him on almost everything else. But Epstein, not so much.

ENTEN: Not so much. And that's the reason why Thomas Massie's attacks really seem to have an impact.

BERMAN: All right, Harry Enten, thank you very much for your reporting on this.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Meta on trial. New Mexico's top officials suing the tech giant, saying the company leaves children vulnerable to online predators. Much more on that ahead.

Plus, we continue following the breaking news this morning, civil rights icon Reverend Jesse Jackson has died. More reaction coming in. We have that for you, ahead.

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[08:35:00]

BOLDUAN: All right, back to the breaking news. The Reverend Jesse Jackson has passed away. He was 84 years old. His family saying that Jackson passed away this morning surrounded by loved ones, a giant of the civil rights movement and a protege of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.. He fought his whole life for racial justice and equality. And this morning, reaction to his passing is coming in from, well, everywhere. Dr. Bernice King, the daughter of MLK Jr., writing this, quote, "he

was a gifted negotiator and a courageous bridge builder serving humanity by bringing calm into tense rooms and creating pathways where none existed. My family shares a long and meaningful history with him, rooted in a shared commitment to justice and love. As we grieve, we give thanks for a life that pushed hope into weary places."

Joining me now, CNN political commentator Bakari Sellers.

I do love the way she says that, pushing hope into weary places. That's quite a turn of phrase. How are you doing this morning, Bakari?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We're doing good. We are missing a giant, but as we say, may he rest in power and may his memory be a blessing. There was no one like Jesse Jackson in terms of his oratory, contributions to the American political structure and political scene, international diplomacy. And he was just -- he was just an awesome person to be around. He had a lot of swag. And you could always feel his aura.

BOLDUAN: Since -- if people have read your book, "My Vanishing Country," they would know this. Since you were born, you had a unique window into Jesse Jackson. Your father, Cleveland Sellers, was a field director for his '88 presidential campaign. And you wrote about your ties and your personal history in your book. What are the stories that you can tell us today, or that you're remembering this morning about him?

SELLERS: Yes, when I was four years old, I guess you could -- you could kind of say I was a campaign baby. There's a picture up right there in a -- in a red jumpsuit. The coolest part about that picture is I had those white hard bottom shoes that every child during that era had. And Jesse would carry me around. And there's another picture of me --

BOLDUAN: And you wore them well.

SELLERS: I wore them well, yes.

But just I think that when people go back and they look at that '84 and '88 campaign, it set the stage for Barack Obama. It set the stage for Carol Moseley Braun. It set the stage for Bernie Sanders and AOC, Kamala Harris and all of those individuals we see today. There was so much.

And he was just a good human being. I mean, you know, I remember the quote, "you never look down on others unless you're helping them up." Just fascinating the way that he talked about how we had more in common than we have to separate us. And I know that if he was 100 percent today over the past, you know, four or five, six years, he would be just as outspoken today as he was then.

BOLDUAN: We were talking about this in a previous conversation. One thing I always appreciate is a complicated person, because no one is perfect and everyone is complicated. And being able to be complicated and push forward and do it in public life is something in and of itself. "The New York Times" wrote about kind of the complicated nature of Jesse Jackson that played out so publicly, and they wrote, "his transcendent rhetoric was inseparable from an imperfect human being whose ego, instinct for self-promotion and personal failings were a source of unending irritation to many friends and admirers and targets for derision by many critics."

But still, he fought on and he inspired generations. And I'm wondering what you -- what's the lesson you take from him that you pass on to the kids? I mean, I'm thinking of Stokely this morning, named after another prominent figure in the civil rights movement.

SELLERS: Well, I call B.S. on Peter Appelbaum, in that obituary. But outside of that, I mean, I think that Jesse taught us to speak with some honesty. No one is beyond reproach. I mean we're all going to fail. Except maybe John Berman. But the rest of us are going to fall down. And the question is, how do we -- how do we get back up?

I mean Jesse Jackson is not without his warts. He's not without his failures. He's not without those lapses of judgment that we all have. The question is whether or not the world is there to judge us, as they were with Jesse.

And the reason the world could judge Jesse, the reason that people on Twitter who sit in their mother's basement and eat Cheerios off their stomach today are applauding his death and call -- and castigating him is because he put himself out there. I mean he represented -- at certain times Jesse Jackson represented the best of us.

He was the one who talked about, no matter if you're black, white, Hispanic, Native American, whatever, if you're poor, if you're downtrodden in this country, we should all unite under one fabric. And so, yes, people may want to talk about his ego and people may want to talk about some of his moral or ethical lapses, as they call them. But at the end of the day, he is going to have what we all want, which is somebody somewhere to simply be able to say, job well done.

[08:40:02]

And so, Jesse Jackson, may you rest in peace, and job well done.

BOLDUAN: And may he rest in power.

It's good to see you this morning, friend. Thank you.

John

BERMAN: He really put himself in the middle of everything. Everything in the country for 60 years. Truly just amazing.

There is developing news this morning in the search for Nancy Guthrie. We could learn the final DNA testing results on a glove found about two miles from Guthrie's home in Arizona that the FBI says resembles the gloves worn, seen in this video. The sheriff is also now explicitly saying for the first time that Guthrie's family, including her children and their spouses, have been cleared as possible suspects in the case. With us now is retired FBI hostage negotiator, special agent Chip Massey.

Great to see you. Thank you so much for coming in and talking about this.

This is the sheriff's statement, which is notable for two reasons. One, we're not hearing a lot from the sheriff on a day-to-day basis. So, for him to come out with this declarative statement which said late yesterday, "to be clear, the Guthrie family, to include all siblings, has been cleared." Why do you think he does it and what does it change?

CHIP MASSEY, RETIRED FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR AND SPECIAL AGENT: Right. I think this is a huge step forward. What we're seeing here is them saying they're now off the board. When we have -- when we're kind of diverted in our attention, we want the country to focus in on what's at hand. And that's still going to be the facts of the case. What somebody might have seen, heard, that they might know this person. The fact that this is off the table, the armchair sleuths and so forth can now move on to something else. We want that America's attention. We want those people engaged, but engaged in the facts of the matter. That's what's important here.

BERMAN: Something else I want to talk about are the various searches that took place at this point now days ago, Friday night. And roughly speaking, these aren't exactly on the map, but there was a search of a home about here, and there was a search of a vehicle about here. This happened Friday night. That's the last we heard of them. What do you think that means?

MASSEY: Well, it could very well be, John, that they've been cleared. That those vehicles and those searches, that every -- everything involved with that didn't have any negative connotations. Or it could be that they found some valuable information, maybe another lead that got them to another step, that got them to another person. That's also very important. The fact that we don't hear about these things, that we don't know the actual results, that doesn't mean that they haven't yielded fruit.

BERMAN: How important is it if you do discover things to keep some things, you know, quiet if you're trying to negotiate somehow with this person who's still out there?

MASSEY: Oh, huge. It's huge. The -- clearly the authorities don't want all the facts out there because there might be something that really points to who this individual is and maybe that person might want to mask their steps, you know, or change or alter something as a result of that release. So, again, it's one of those things where the American people might be puzzled. Why we don't have more information doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

BERMAN: Seventeen days into the search. You've seen so many cases, not exactly like this, but does this feel like a typical ransom case?

MASSEY: It's not typical in terms of the celebrity involved, in terms of the medical frailty of the woman. Those are -- and the public -- it's captured the public's attention. But from that standpoint, I have seen these things last much longer. And the FBI and law enforcement has been able to extract people safely as a result of that.

BERMAN: Well, let's hope.

Thank you so much, Chip Massey. Great to see you this morning.

MASSEY: It's great to see you, John.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: The power of the presidential pardon may soon look a little bit different. Congressman Johnny Olszewski, a Democrat from Maryland, is now pushing a constitutional amendment that would place new limits on presidential pardon power, putting the final say in the hands of Congress. The amendment would require a vote to approve pardons. And, as he puts it, would create a check where pardons are used fairly and responsibly.

And this effort just got something of a big -- made a big step forward. Republican Don Bacon has signed on -- signed on, he says, as the first Republican member to co-sponsor the Pardon Integrity Act. To be clear, though, this isn't just a current issue. President Trump is not the first president to issue a controversial pardon or pardons. Bill Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, George W. Bush pardoned Scooter Libby, Joe Biden issued a pardon to his own son, Hunter. So, this spans administrations.

Joining me right now is the Democratic Congressman Johnny Olszewski to talk more about this.

Thanks for coming in.

First and foremost, why take this on? Every president in modern history has made controversial pardons, but it's still the power of the president.

REP. JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI (D-MD): It's the right time to do the right thing because we've seen, as you pointed out in your reporting, this has been a problem that's been going on for a long time. And we've seen to be especially egregious under President Trump.

[08:45:05]

Juan Orlando Hernandez, 4.5 billion doses of cocaine on the streets of America. We've seen crypto magnates who are buying into his crypto company, owns 80 plus percent of the Trump crypto that he -- he was pardoned. We've seen pardons where people have paid $2 million to his MAGA PAC. We know this is not just a Republican issue. This is not just a Donald Trump issue. But this has certainly raised the level where we have to take action given the abuses we've seen under this administration.

BOLDUAN: So, Congressman, you -- as I mentioned, you've got sign on from the first Republican, Republican Congressman Don Bacon. "Axios" citing a statement from the congress -- Congressman Bacon. I'll read this. "Presidential pardons are an important constitutional authority, but like all powers held by the executive branch, these authorities benefit from the appropriate checks and balances the Constitution envisioned. Across multiple administrations we've seen legitimate questions raised about how this authority has been used at the same time, the ability of Congress to provide oversight has weakened."

How important is it to have Don Bacon on board?

OLSZEWSKI: It's critical. And I want to give Representative Bacon a lot of credit for standing up and showing some courage in this moment. I think this is one of many examples where we need to be able to push back as a co-equal branch of government and put these kinds of reforms forward for the American public to consider and for Congress to consider.

I came to Congress as an American government and history teacher, and I would have never thought in a million years this would have been one of the issues I was leading on. But it's clear, from the abuses of the past, and certainly the awful abuses of this administration, even a pardon shopping industry has developed where people close to President Trump are charging $1 million to try to secure a pardon. It's an issue where the elites and the wealthy are -- and the well-connected are getting off and the average person is being left behind.

And so, I really want to thank Don for his partnership on this work. I'm now looking forward to opening it up to other members, Democrats and Republicans alike, to make sure that we make this important change to the currently unchecked power of the pardon that the president has.

BOLDUAN: And then to the reality check. I mean to call this a long shot might be an understatement here. I mean as a constitutional amendment, Congressman, it requires two-thirds majorities in both chambers, hard to come by to say the least, and ratification by 38 states to pass. I mean are you fine with this if it becomes a virtue- signaling exercise?

OLSZEWSKI: Well, I think it's worth doing because, again, the abuses are just so absolutely egregious. We had a January 6th pardon or someone who was pardoned, who was convicted later of child sexual abuse. So, I mean, I can go down the list on and on. And I think if you were to ask the average member of Congress, is this a reform worth pursuing, they would say yes. So, absolutely, it's worth having the conversation. And I think having Don Bacon join me in this effort really shows that this is a check that is common sense. It is not over the top. We're not talking about repealing the pardon power. But something that was used for justice and mercy has been perverted into something that is rewarding the powerful and the rich, and that's something we're trying to end here.

BOLDUAN: What have you heard from other members on this?

OLSZEWSKI: People understand that Donald Trump, in particular, has abused this sweeping pardon power that's enshrined in the Constitution. They've been very encouraging of my efforts. Again, the fact that someone like Don Bacon is stepping forward with me in this initiative says a lot. And so, we're going to move forward.

You know, you pointed out that these are abuses that have happened under Democratic and Republican administrations alike in the past. I think they've been especially egregious and awful under Donald Trump. But I am hearing a lot of encouragement from my colleagues in Congress. And I think now that this is a bipartisan effort, we can actually move forward and hopefully see additional progress in the weeks ahead.

BOLDUAN: I also just thought about Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar. I mean have you -- that becomes kind of an uncomfortable conversation considering he received a pardon from Trump.

OLSZEWSKI: Well, look, he's a colleague who deserves the same consideration under the due process of law. That pardon is one of many examples that both President Trump and, frankly, President Biden have done preemptive pardons where neither the public nor the courts had the chance to weigh in for individuals to have their due process. And so, I think doing the right thing, as I led with, it's always the right time to do the right thing. And, you know, without casting judgment or assuming the guilt or innocence of an individual, people deserve their day in court. But having presidents step in and preemptively decide a case through the use of the pardon, I think is wrong in any instance, and it's another reason why I think it needs to have a reform like the ones that we're pushing forward here.

BOLDUAN: Definitely worthy conversation to be having. Let's see how far it goes.

Congressman, thank you for coming in. I appreciate your time.

Coming up for us, not your average flight.

[08:50:00]

A pilot touches down and takes off from a moving train.

And what does a bird do when it is injured? It takes itself, apparently, to the emergency room asking for help. More on this very unexpected visitor, ahead.

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BOLDUAN: New this morning, an American surfer has been found dead in Costa Rica after an apparent robbery. Kurt Van Dyke was a prominent member of the international surfing community known for promoting the sport in the Caribbean. And local officials now say that he was at home with a woman when two armed men threatened them with a firearm and stole valuables. Authorities say Van Dyke was asphyxiated and had several stab wounds. The woman suffered minor injuries.

And then there is quite a feat. A pilot just made aviation history. Daria Costa pulled off a world's first maneuver, take a look at this, landing his plane on a moving cargo train. The train traveling at 75 miles per hour. And obviously he then had to land and take off -- take off all in just 50 seconds. Quite the maneuver. [08:55:03]

And then, look at this. A hospital in Germany had a very unexpected patient show up. An injured seabird. They found it pecking at the emergency room glass door with a fishing hook stuck in its beak. The bird then went to a second entrance of the hospital when it was not immediately seen and noticed. Firefighters were then called. The bird was then caught. The hospital staff removed the hook and treated its wound before releasing it.

You must advocate for your own health, John

BERMAN: That's what they say.

All right, happening today, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg will face grieving families when he testifies in a landmark trial on social media in Los Angeles. That's a lawsuit that accuses companies of intentionally developing features that hook young people and harm their mental health. Meta is also standing trial in a separate case in New Mexico that accuses the company of creating, quote, "a breeding ground for predators to target and exploit children."

With us now is the attorney general of New Mexico, Raul Torrez.

Mr. Attorney General, thank you so much for being with us.

You allege that Meta, in your words, "knowingly facilitated child exploitation across Instagram, Facebook and WhatsApp."

You know, what specifically are you saying Meta knew and when did they know it?

RAUL TORREZ (D), NEW MEXICO ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, Meta's platforms have been breeding grounds for predatory behavior for years. And we know that, not because of our own independent investigation, but because of the revelations that have been coming from whistleblowers who have been warning company executives, including Mark Zuckerberg, about the features of the platform that allow predatory behavior and people who are interested in children to find those children in those spaces.

BERMAN: Being exploited and being a breeding ground is one thing. Knowingly facilitated is another. So, how do you get from one to another?

TORREZ: Well, what you really need to do is look at the internal communications and compare those communications with what the company has been saying to customers, to users and policymakers for years. They have spent billions of dollars trying to convince people that these places are safe for families to use, for underage users to be in those spaces, and at the same time they're well aware that there has been just an avalanche of predatory behavior.

We were able to establish that by creating a decoy account, an undercover account, where some of our investigators presented themselves as a young girl on the platform, and they were absolutely inundated with that material. And when that happened, rather than trying to take down or flag that account, the company actually sent information about how to commercialize that following. That's the kind of corporate behavior that needs to stop.

BERMAN: So, the New Mexico Department of Justice arrested four suspected child predators as part of an undercover investigation you call Operation Meta File. All targeting children through Meta's platforms. They all pled guilty. How does that investigation connect with this trial?

TORREZ: Well, Operation Meta File was actually initiated after our lawsuit was filed and after the company started to tell people that the results of our first investigation were an aberration, they weren't actually reflective of the kind of experience that kids were going to be having on the platform. So, we decided to test that. And, unfortunately, what we found is three individuals who decided to show up at a local motel thinking they were going to have sex with children. We took them into custody. And what was interesting about that is at least two of those individuals had previously been flagged by the company for having inappropriate interactions with people on the platform, and yet they were still allowed to have accounts that were actively engaged in predatory behavior.

BERMAN: So, on the eve of this trial, Meta spokesperson Andy Stone posted this about you. "New Mexico Attorney General Raul Torrez regularly touts his experience prosecuting internet crimes against children, but he led an ethically compromised investigation into Meta that knowingly put real children at risk." He goes on to cite the state's use of children's photos and undercover accounts, delayed reporting and whatnot.

How do you respond to this?

TORREZ: Well, I'm a career prosecutor and it's been interesting to see just how much Meta's behavior mirrors that of the kind of criminals that I've been investigating and prosecuting throughout my career. One of the most -- sort of common tactics for people who are caught in doing something that they shouldn't be doing is to blame law enforcement. I don't think Meta's behavior is any different. And the jury's going to see through that sort of distraction. And I have every confidence they're going to be found liable for their conduct.

BERMAN: And there's this trial going on in California. What specifically are you watching for there?

TORREZ: Well, I look forward to Mr. Zuckerberg's testimony.

[08:59:58]

I mean, unfortunately, the state of New Mexico doesn't have the ability to compel his personal appearance in court here in Santa Fe, but he's going to have to, you know, be