Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

DOJ Launches Probe into E. Jean Carroll; Iran Launches Missile at Kuwait; Rep. Wesley Bell (D-MO) is Interviewed about Bondi's Testimony. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired May 28, 2026 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

CRAIG FERGUSON, HOST, "AMERICAN ON PURPOSE": I talked -- yes, I talked to him. I'll talk to anybody. I'm kind of promiscuous in that regard. I will -- yes, don't do that.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm just -- really.

FERGUSON: No, you did that. You did the, hmm. No, I'll talk to -- I'll talk to anybody.

SIDNER: OK.

FERGUSON: And I talk to everybody in the show. I drove around America. I do have a strong feeling about this. Unless you've driven across America a couple of times, you don't really know this country.

SIDNER: I agree. I agree.

FERGUSON: You know, you can fly across it, but that's not the same. Airport to airport, it's not the same.

SIDNER: I agree.

FERGUSON: You've got to drive -- you've got to at least spend some of your life in a Buc-ee's. See, when you come from another country and you have to learn how to drive in Los Angeles, that's where I moved to. I had to take my driving test again.

SIDNER: And?

FERGUSON: Well, in L.A. it's easy. You drive around the block, don't shoot anybody and you're good. But it's -- it is -- it's easy to drive in America. It's like a straight line. Turn that way or turn that way.

SIDNER: Wait, is Scotland on the other side. You drive -- everything's --

FERGUSON: Oh, the Atlantic, yes.

SIDNER: Yes. Yes, I find that hard but possible. FERGUSON: Well, yes, no, it is. It is that way. It is a little tricky.

But one of the greatest things -- and we forget about how awesome this is in America. Right turn on a red light.

SIDNER: Love it.

FERGUSON: That is a mark of civilization.

SIDNER: It's part of the American dream.

FERGUSON: Yes, it is.

SIDNER: I 100 percent agree.

FERGUSON: Yes, it is. And if you do --

SIDNER: It's one of my favorite things.

FERGUSON: And if you do -- I mean, listen, no other country has that.

SIDNER: Truely.

FERGUSON: No other country has a right turn on red like that.

SIDNER: I know. I learned that.

FERGUSON: And you know why we have that? Freedom.

SIDNER: Craig Ferguson, this is fun. Thank you, thank you, thank you for coming on early this morning.

FERGUSON: Thank you.

SIDNER: Be sure to tune in, the all-new CNN Original Series, "Craig Ferguson: American on Purpose" premieres Saturday night at nine on CNN and next day on the CNN app.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, a CNN exclusive. A jury found Donald Trump liable for sexual abuse. Now there is a new federal investigation of the woman who made the allegations.

Breaking this morning, U.S. Central Command says Iran committed an egregious violation of the ceasefire overnight. So, what does that mean for the efforts to end the war?

And the anticipation building to crown the next National Spelling Bee champion. Who will walk away with the $50,000 prize? What will the final word be? And what are the chances that any of us have ever heard that word before, ever?

Sara is out today. I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, a CNN exclusive. The Justice Department has launched a criminal investigation into E. Jean Carroll, the former magazine columnist who accused President Trump of sexual assault. Separate juries found Trump liable for sexually abusing her in a New York department store in the mid-1990s and for defaming Carroll then in 2019 when he repeatedly denied assaulting her, like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have no idea who this woman is. This is a woman who's also accused other men of things, as you know. It is a totally false accusation.

I said, well, it's politically incorrect. She's not my type.

I met a woman in front of Bergdorf Goodman, took her up to a changing booth right outside where the cash register is. This is New York City. Why didn't you scream? Uh, I was in trauma.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Together, the judgments against the president add up to more than $88 million. Donald Trump is trying to appeal in both of those cases. Multiple sources tell CNN now that the Justice Department is examining whether E. Jean Carroll committed perjury during a deposition about outside funding for her legal fight.

CNN's Paula Reid has this exclusive reporting and joins us now.

Paula, tell us more about what you've learned.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, according to our sources, the Justice Department is focused on whether Carroll may have lied during a 2022 deposition where she said that she had received no outside funding. Later, her lawyers, though, told the judge that she had, in fact, received outside funding for her legal fees and other expenses from billionaire Reid Hoffman.

Now, when the trial began, the judge said that he didn't see any issues with her credibility. He even blocked Trump lawyers from being able to revisit these questions around funding. But it's clear that this investigation, which is, we believe, in its early stages, is just the latest example of the president's promised campaign of retribution against his perceived adversaries.

Now, under Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche they've sort of picked up the pace at the Justice Department of how quickly they are pursuing, not only President Trump's adversaries, but also pet issues for the president, for his base. But in this case, I'm told that Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche has recused from the Carroll investigation because he worked on the appeals.

[09:05:03]

I'm told he has not attended any meetings or been involved in any discussions about this. Instead, it's being handled out of the U.S. attorney's office in Chicago. That's where Reid Hoffman's nonprofit is based. Now, I also want to note, Carroll is embroiled with multiple ongoing

legal disputes with the president. Juries have awarded her millions of dollars in damages. The president has appealed that. Has not paid her.

Now, one of those appeals, Kate, is currently in front of the Supreme Court. But interestingly, 12 times the high court has punted on deciding whether or not they want to take up that case. So, we're still waiting to see if they're going to take up this appeal, or if another case gets to the Supreme Court, if they might take up that question related to Carroll and the president.

Now, Carroll's legal team declined to comment for this story, and attempts to reach Reid Hoffman were unsuccessful.

BOLDUAN: Paula, it's important and very great reporting on your part. Thank you so much for bringing that to us.

John.

BERMAN: Yes, she had the story way before everyone else.

With us now, CNN legal analyst, former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.

Counselor, great to see you this morning.

How high is the bar for the Justice Department to launch an investigation like this? What do they have to have

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's very low to launch an investigation, John. Just -- and I wouldn't even use the term launch. I would say open an investigation. They simply have to have, even just an inference that some criminal activity has happened.

Now, again, that's just the preliminary step. We're not talking about charges here or indictments or grand juries. They can open an investigation into anything. And, quite frankly, this Justice Department has made clear that they're willing to do so in a, let's say, abusive manner for people that are opponents of the president.

BERMAN: The other side of that is, as you say, no charges have been filed. What recourse does E. Jean Carroll have at the moment?

WILLIAMS: Well, at the moment, really none, only because what -- you know, what we have is, reported from CNN, that an investigation has been opened.

Now, if, in fact, she ends up charged or indicted with a crime, she can certainly move to dismiss that on the basis that, you know, one, she could say that it's a political prosecution, as others have done with respect to this Justice Department and this president, but also that the evidence is thin. The mere fact that there is a false statement made is not itself enough to sustain a perjury conviction. And the Justice Department would have to prove that she knowingly made a mistake and with an intent to deceive. And she needs to come into court right when that indictment is filed and say that, look, this indictment is so thin and on such shaky ground, your honor, that it ought to be dismissed.

BERMAN: But as long as it's just an investigation, no charges filed, really virtually nothing that she can do legally.

WILLIAMS: Right. Yes.

BERMAN: Let's dig in a little bit more to that perjury there. How hard is it to prove that someone knowingly told a lie under oath?

WILLIAMS: Yes. You know, you called me counsel, John, but you said the right legal word there and knowingly is the big one. You -- prosecutors would have to establish that the person made the statement with an intent to deceive. Didn't just make a mistake or get it wrong, but that somehow they knew what they were doing.

Now, prosecutors would typically do that either by communications or statements or other behavior from the defendant. But that can be a somewhat challenging bar. You have another challenge here in that a lot of the statements would have been made to her attorneys, which are typically protected communications, right? You've heard about attorney-client privilege. So, in order to get there, prosecutors are going to have to come into court and make a showing to the judge that they believe that her attorneys were in on it as well. That's another bar and another challenge that really is just going to be tough in any case, particularly this one.

BERMAN: So, the leader, the current leader of the Justice Department, the acting attorney general, Todd Blanche, has, we are told, recused himself from any matters involved with this because he was the president, at that point the former president's lawyer on some of the appeals.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BERMAN: So, how do you read all this?

WILLIAMS: Right. Look, I want to encourage recusal in any legal case. It is important when attorneys have conflicts of interest to step aside and not handle those cases.

The challenge here is that the Justice Department has created this mess by putting the president's former personal attorney in a senior role in government. That's a very important job in government, John. The deputy attorney general, or acting attorney general, that is the individual who would review an indictment like this or an investigation like this. When the Justice Department is engaging in indicting sort of a famous person or an elected official or whatever else, typically those would run through Washington and go through the deputy attorney general's office or even the attorney general. Now he has to step out of it. It's just yet another mess that they have created by mixing the personal and the political with the leadership of the Justice Department under this president.

BERMAN: All right, a lot going on here. A lot of issues that aren't going to go away anytime soon.

Elliot Williams, great to see you this morning. Thank you.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: More of our breaking news this morning. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE all condemning Iran's attack on Kuwait this morning after U.S. officials say that Iran launched a ballistic missile toward Kuwait, which was intercepted.

[09:10:13]

U.S. officials. -- U.S. Central Command is also calling that an egregious ceasefire violation. CENTCOM says the attack came after Iran also launched attack drones near the Strait of Hormuz. U.S. forces intercepted those drones, then launched its own attack, stopping another from launching.

CNN's Kevin Liptak at the White House for us once again.

What more are you hearing from the White House about all of this, this morning and where things stand?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes. And I think the acknowledgment that you hear from officials is that this certainly does complicate these ongoing negotiations to try and bring this war to an end. You know, when I asked them what they think IRGC is doing in all of this. They try and make the point that they're demonstrating some leverage as these talks continue, as both sides harden their positions, as they try and come to the negotiating table to secure a memorandum that would ultimately end this conflict.

But I do think it just underscores how complex the situation is. And just to run through for you exactly what has happened in the Strait of Hormuz over the last, you know, 12, 24 hours, the U.S. detected Iran firing these one-way drones towards a commercial vessel that was in the Strait. They took out the drones, and they also took out a ground facility that they say was preparing to fire an additional drone. That caused the retaliation by Iran that CENTCOM is calling an egregious ceasefire violation there, firing a ballistic missile toward Kuwait.

And so, I think the question one is, is this ceasefire actually holding? It seems evident that the firing has not actually ceased. But does the truce stay in effect despite these violations? And two, where does this leave, you know, the negotiations? We heard from President Trump yesterday trying to appear sort of uneager to reach a deal that wasn't a great deal. He says he's under no pressure to come to some sort of agreement despite the economic fallout of the war and despite the political implications it could have for him. He says, quote, "I don't care about the midterms."

But I do think it's evident that, you know, despite the president's claims of complete military obliteration of Iran over the course of this conflict, it does retain its ability to cause havoc in the Strait of Hormuz. You know, CNN reporting suggests that Iran has been able to dig out some of its missile capabilities along the Strait. And so, as they try and work out a deal that would reopen that waterway, that would allow these vessels to transit, that is going to be a hugely complicating factor as they work on the language here.

And I will just point out another element of what the president said yesterday, which was this thread towards Oman, the staunch U.S. ally in the Gulf that has helped in the mediation efforts. He says that if Oman joins with Iran in trying to navigate the Strait of Hormuz in restricting some of the shipments through there, that the U.S. would blow it up, which really caused some eyebrows to be raised, and just adding, I think, to some of the complex nature of all of these talks, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Definitely adding a new level of complexity to all of this when he said that.

It's good to see you. Thank you so much, Kevin, for that reporting.

John.

BERMAN: All right, five people who have been trapped for more than a week in an underground flooded cave await rescue after being found by search crews. We're getting some new video in from inside the cave this morning.

Former Attorney General Pam Bondi preparing to testify on Capitol Hill. We've got new reporting on the tough questions she will face about the Epstein files.

And a kitten takes a 100 mile ride stuck in the grill of a car, and we understand did not even offer to pay for gas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:18:08]

BOLDUAN: A months long effort by Congress coming to fruition tomorrow. Former Attorney General Pam Bondi is set for questioning before the House Oversight Committee as they continue their investigation into DOJ's handling of the Epstein files. The deposition will be transcribed, though the former attorney general, Bondi, will not be under oath. And Bondi has faced massive criticism from both sides of the aisle really for her role in overseeing the release of those documents.

Last hour I spoke with Marina Lacerda. She's a survivor of Epstein's abuse. I want to play for you part of what she told me in terms of the questions she wants and would hope to have answered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARINA LACERDA, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Tomorrow, we want to understand what happened inside the DOJ with the redactions. Why names and photos, information of victims revealed while names of those who exploited are redacted. It is -- it is very confusing for us. This is not a hard job. Why are there numerous investigations, leads not being investigated? We have so many names. I mean, people have been asking for names, names, names, names. We have all these names in the files. Why aren't we taking a step forward? (END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: And joining me right now is Democratic Congressman Wesley Bell from Missouri. He is on the House Oversight Committee.

Congressman, thank you for being here.

You hear what one of Epstein's survivors of -- a survivor of Epstein's abuse would like to have answered tomorrow, but what are you going to be asking of Pam Bondi?

REP. WESLEY BELL (D-MO): You know, and I'm a former prosecutor, Kate, and my heart just goes out to these survivors. I've met with them. I've been able to look them in the eyes and hear their stories. And I've led investigations like these as a prosecutor.

[09:20:01]

And what they are owed is a full, detailed and thorough investigation. That's how we get to -- and we follow that investigation wherever those facts and evidence takes us. That's how we get to that concept of justice. And the survivors and victim's deserve nothing less.

BOLDUAN: Is there an area with regard that you think Pam Bondi needs to speak to? I'm sure there are lots of questions, but is there one area you believe you would like to see -- that you would like to focus when she gets -- comes before the committee?

BELL: Oh, there's a lot of things that I think that we should focus on. One is, there is -- there was -- there's an Epstein law that requires full release of the Epstein files. The only way that we can do a full investigation and ensure that those accountable for what is likely the largest sex trafficking operation in this country and possibly in the world, the only way we can get to the bottom of it is to get -- is to see the entire files, get every question answered, and make certain that every stone is unturned and we look under every rock and we follow that investigation wherever it may lead us.

And again, because sometimes we complicate things, but things aren't complicated. Now they get corrupted, is what we're seeing by this administration. But they're not complicated. Let's do a thorough investigation. Let's do a detailed investigation. And let's deliver the justice that these -- that these women deserve.

BOLDUAN: Another thing that Marina Lacerda told us this morning is that she says despite all of the talk from officials at the Department of Justice, that they want to hear from Epstein survivors, that they want to -- if crimes are committed, they want to seek out, you know, punishment for those crimes. Maria Lacerda also says that they have never heard from anyone at DOJ, despite what's been said.

Let me play this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARINA LACERDA, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: We had everyone from the DOJ to Pam Bondi to Todd Blanche, right, on his hearing saying, if victims or survivors need to come forward, they just need to go to the FBI or they need to come to us. It's really crazy. We have been trying to talk to them. We've -- we're tired of asking to speak to them. And we find that at this point that it is truly sad that they have not tried to contact us or even tried to set up something with us.

So, the answer is, no, they have not tried.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Congressman, what can you all do about that? That seems to be a concrete step that could be taken.

BELL: I couldn't -- I could not agree more. And as my grandmother used to say, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and goes, quack, quack, it's a duck. And this looks, sounds and walks like a cover up.

We know exactly what it is. Pam Bondi told us that she had the files on her desk. She tipped off the president that he is mentioned in the Epstein files more than anyone else other than Jeffrey Epstein. He's mentioned in an estimated 5,300 files, over 38,000 times. And this isn't just about the president, although he is mentioned. And he is someone that needs to answer questions. We want to find anyone and question anyone who has information that can lead us to getting justice for these individuals.

Again, it is not complicated. There are people complicating it. And they're doing it to cover up for this administration.

BOLDUAN: So then what is going to come of this? You're going to have Pam Bondi come. It's going to be transcribed. It's not going to be under oath. It's still a crime to lie -- to lie to Congress. So, you have that.

What is going to -- what's going to come next? Do you think that her being out of office now, her being no longer in the position of attorney general, do you think that will make her more open to working with the committee than you have described you think that she hasn't been, or something different? What comes after this, other than, she -- a transcription -- a transcribed interview that we'll all read and then it seems that I'm asking the same questions today of you that we asked before the meeting back in February when she spoke before Congress and every time since.

BELL: Kate, they can run, but they can't hide. At some point, we are -- we are not going to stop until a detailed, thorough and complete investigation is done. Right now Republicans are in the majority so they can shut us down because they have the votes to shut investigations down on Oversight, which is where I serve. But we're going to take back the House. We're going to do -- and the American people know -- need to know what's at stake. And justice is at stake.

And so, we're not going to stop. And so, they can throw up every roadblock that they can to stop us from investigating these horrific and atrocious crimes.

[09:25:05]

But we are not going to stop. And so, yes, it -- what we're seeing from House Republicans, they are not doing their job, but they're not serving the interest of justice and these victims who have -- where they are long overdue to get the justice that they deserve. And as a -- as a human being, as a -- as a father, as a former prosecutor, what we're seeing is disgusting and deplorable. We need to do a thorough investigation. The DOJ needs to release every single file per the law, that is the law of the land, so that we can do a complete investigation and bring these individuals justice. And we're not going to stop until it's done.

BOLDUAN: Let's see what happens tomorrow.

Congressman Wesley Bell, thank you for your time.

Up ahead for us, the race to rescue five people still trapped deep inside a flooded cave but found alive after a week. What we just heard from one of the main rescuers about the operation to get them out.

And from the football field to the baseball diamond, Travis Kelce announces he's going to be joining the Cleveland Guardians as a minority owner.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)