Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Damage on Both Sides in Libya; U.S. Fighter Jet Crashes in Libya; New Child Car Seat Guidelines

Aired March 22, 2011 - 13:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Allied air strikes are still inflicting damage on the military assets of Moammar Gadhafi in Libya, but not without a cost. You're looking at the wreckage now of a U.S. F-15 that crashed today, as we told you, in rebel-held Eastern Libya, for reasons the U.S. military says were technical, not hostile.

I'll say that again for you, the U.S. says the plane had equipment problems and was not shot down.

At this point, Libyan air defenses are said to be minimal at most. The jet's two-man crew ejected and the pilot was rescued promptly by a plane from the USS Kearsarge on call in the Mediterranean. The weapons officer was found by Libyan rebels who took care of him until coalition troops could reach him. We're told neither man is badly hurt.

Now, back in Tripoli, journalists today saw the apparent result of an allied missile strike on a port. Casualties included truck- mounted rocket launchers. And we'll get more on that in just a moment.

We also have remarkable pictures from Misrata, a city down the coast that Gadhafi forces have bombarded for days now. This is amateur video uploaded to YouTube yesterday. We can't confirm when or where it was shot, but we do know Misrata's main hospital reports 77 deaths since Sunday.

The U.N.-approved campaign to protect Libyan civilians began on Saturday, and it's still not clear, really, who's even going to end up in charge. Arab states don't want to work for NATO and the U.S. has other campaigns to worry about. NATO says it will enforce a Libyan arms embargo in the meantime.

Now let's bring in our live reporters. CNN's Chris Lawrence is at the Pentagon for us today, and Arwa Damon is in Benghazi, the seat of the opposition movement in Libya.

Chris, let's start with you. Bring us up to date on the no-fly zone, if you will.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's starting to get established around the area of Benghazi, and then the goal, Randi, will be to try to start pushing it west. You know, through those other cities, all the way eventually out to Tripoli. If you take a look at the graphic, you can see what's been decided upon. They have decided to enforce basically a northern no- fly zone just over the northern tip of the country. But enforcing it could become tricky as the weeks go on because some of the commanders, the U.S. military commanders, say they've already started to see some of the rebels with heavy armor, bigger weapons.

And the question becomes, once they are armed like that, some commanders say they don't necessarily still fall under the protecting civilians clause. And if they start to advance on Gadhafi's forces, that could present a very challenging problem for the coalition.

KAYE: And why did the coalition, Chris, choose this particular plan in terms of focusing on the coastal areas?

LAWRENCE: A U.S. Pentagon official told me basically when you look at a country the size, the sheer size of Libya, you've got to put your assets where they count the most. And really, across that north is the most populated center.

And it's also a matter of money. I mean, to enforce a no-fly zone over the entire country could be upwards somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 million, whereas enforcing it over just the northern strip, probably more in the range of just under $100 million.

KAYE: Yes, we've been getting a lot of comments, Chris, on our blog about the cost of this in no-fly zone and protecting the Libyans. I know I think you said, what, it's over $1 million per Tomahawk missile?

LAWRENCE: Yes. The Navy puts the number, when you take all the cost associated with it, at about $1.4 million per missile.

We know there's been about 160 of them fired. Some of them are British, but, say, the U.S. has fired 130 of them. That's $182 million just on the Tomahawks alone. And then when you look -- when they start to decrease in use, then the jets start to pick up in use, and the cost to keep, say, an F-15 fighter in the air for an hour is about $10,000.

KAYE: All right. Chris, thanks for that.

Arwa, let's get to you. Tell us about the rebel rescue. We've been talking about this F-15 that went down, and the rebel fighters actually rescued one of the airmen.

ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Randi. We were down at the scene of that crash just a short while ago, where residents and eyewitness in the area, which is around an hour's drive east of Benghazi, fields, farmlands, residents in that area telling us that they realized that there was a fighter jet overhead, that they assumed it was foreign, and that the crew would be in need of help. So the entire area went out and began combing through these fields and farmlands, looking for the crew because they wanted to help them, realizing that the crew was flying over Libya basically to help and protect the population. We spoke with one colonel who was just about the only English speaker there who said that he was shouting at whoever could hear him to come out, that they would be safe, that they were in friendly territory, not enemy territory. One of the pilots, he said, eventually came out, and the colonel described that, in his gratitude, he walked over, hugged this pilot, kissed him on both cheeks, said the pilot appeared, by and large, unharmed, a bit dazed.

Eventually, they did begin chitchatting about mundane things, they said, talking about their families. The colonel, remarking that the pilot was one of his son's ages. And everyone really in this area expressing their gratitude, because people here do firmly believe that without foreign intervention, without those air strikes, they would all have eventually been massacred by Gadhafi's forces -- Randi.

KAYE: Yes, you can only imagine how relieved these men were when they landed in rebel-friendly territory, and to see them rescued by the opposition forces that they're there actually trying to help as well.

So, thank you, Arwa, for that report.

And to Chris Lawrence as well.

It is just after 2:00 a.m. Wednesday in Japan, and workers at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant finally have something to celebrate. The crisis is by no means over, but today they managed to restore electricity to the control room of the number 3 reactor. That's one of four that's been devastated by explosions, fires, or both.

And electricity, of course, means a lot. It can power water pumps after they're repaired, as well as lights, ventilation and monitoring systems. Crews still are spraying water on reactors 3 and 4, and scientists still are testing water, air and soil for miles around.

We told you about the bans on local milk and produce. Well, today, high levels of radioactive iodine and cesium were found in soil samples 25 miles from the plant.

The official death toll from Japan's catastrophic earthquake and tsunami now stands at 9,080, with 13,561 still considered missing. One of those in one category or the other is a grandfather who thought he'd be safe in his own bedroom.

CNN's Gary Tuchman met his family.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chikako Sugai lost her bridal shop when the tsunami hit her hometown of Kesennuma, Japan. But it's the least of her worries. That's because she's not sure of the whereabouts of her father in this decimated city.

CHIKAKO SUGAI, MISSING MAN'S DAUGHTER (through translator): Maybe he's home. Maybe he's still in the house.

TUCHMAN: Her mother evacuated before the tsunami, but her father, 79-year-old Setsuo Sato, said he would be safe on the second floor of his home, so he stayed behind. So why doesn't Chikako know if he survived?

SUGAI (through translator): There's no way to get there.

TUCHMAN: Incredibly, this part of the city has been so utterly pulverized, that there are impenetrable mountains and craters of rubble. Firefighters could not get to the house to search for Setsuo Sato.

We couldn't believe there wasn't some way to get there, so Chikako's son Shintaro (ph) starts to walk with us towards the neighborhood so perhaps we could all find out what happened to his grandfather. But as the size and scope of the wreckage got more intense, he went looking for firefighters who could help, and we continued the journey. We were still nowhere near the house when we made a discovery.

(on camera): The carnage we're seeing is horrifying. As you know, the number of people on the missing list is very high. One of the missing is in the back seat of this car. We see the body of a man who apparently drowned in the tsunami.

(voice-over): We saw firefighters combing wreckage, and we notified them so soldiers could remove the body. We also told them all what we were trying to do. But the firefighters were not able to find a way to get there either.

(on camera): Forty-eight hours have now gone by since we first arrived, and we see that firefighters have cut a path. We can walk through this muddy swamp and we think we'll be able to get to the house.

(voice-over): And then we see it. The home is a half-mile from where it used to be. The first floor is destroyed, but the second floor is intact. However, there is no sign of human life. No sign of Setsuo Sato.

(on camera): If he would have stayed here, it appears he could have survived. Here, the linens and the Futons are still in place.

Up here, a judo class picture. Shintaro (ph), the grandson, is in the picture. We don't know what happened to his grandfather.

(voice-over): Chikako had already been informed by authorities that her father was not in the house. We retrieved sentimental mementos from his bedroom for her, and she told us --

SUGAI (through translator): Others have been found. Survivors have been in the news. So I still have some hope.

TUCHMAN: Setsuo Sato is now one of many names on the list of the missing. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Kesennuma, Japan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: A U.S. Air Force fighter jet crashes in Libya because of mechanical problems. How was the U.S. military able to come to the rescue so quickly? I'll ask a former NATO supreme allied commander.

And we want to know what you think about the U.S. involvement in Libya. Send us your thoughts. Here's how to reach us: at Twitter, Facebook, and our blog. We'll read your answers in just a few minutes, so keep it here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(GUNFIRE)

KAYE: Can you hear that? That's anti-aircraft fire piercing the night sky in Tripoli. Coalition air strikes continue today in Libya.

And as we mentioned a little earlier, the military says a U.S. Air Force fighter jet crashed because of mechanical problems. Both crew members ejected safely and are now in U.S. hands.

So I want to bring in CNN contributor General Wesley Clark.

General Clark, glad you're with us.

When something like this happens with that crash, what is the rescue process? Can you walk us through how these guys were picked up so quickly, how the military would handle this?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, for every one of these -- during these missions, there's always some standby crews, usually with helicopters or V-22 Ospreys, who are -- they know where the planes are headed. They know when they're going in. They're ready to go if they have to penetrate to pick someone up.

They also have a package of other aircraft that help them get in there. And so this is a play, it's a drill that's practiced again and again. It's talked through on chalkboards, it's practiced live and so forth, so they know exactly how to package the rescue asset to go in, even in hostile territory.

Then the crew is flying, it's being tracked by radar, someone's flight-following it. If they have a problem, they're on radio communications. If they have to eject, when they eject, the last location is known.

The pilots have radio communications on the ground. They know what to do. They're told where to scatter to, so forth. This is all practiced out. They know how to do this.

KAYE: Right. Let's talk about the mixed messages from the Obama administration and the Pentagon.

Take a listen to what Defense Secretary Robert Gates said in Russia today, and we'll talk about it right after.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: There hasn't been any disagreement that I'm aware of in terms of the mission and what we're trying to accomplish. At least in terms of the Security Council resolution.

You know, this is a complicated -- this command and control business is complicated. We haven't done something like this, kind of on the fly before, and so it's not surprising to me that it would take a few days to get it all sorted out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: So, General, yesterday we have the president reiterating that Gadhafi has to go, but then we have the Pentagon saying that he's really not the target of these air strikes.

So what is the end game?

CLARK: Well, I think the end game, politically, for the administration is to leverage Gadhafi out of Libya. That is certainly the end game for the rebels, who apparently don't want any discussion or negotiation with Gadhafi. But that's not the military mission. The military mission is to protect innocent civilians, and that's the authorization of the U.N. Security Council, and that's the mission the U.S. is executing.

KAYE: And there is criticism of the administration for not having a clear plan. How would you define this mission? Do you see a clear plan here?

CLARK: Well, I think there's a clear military plan. The question is, does it lead to a decisive political outcome?

And saying that we want Gadhafi out, if that's the objective, that's a decisive political outcome. You may not be happy with it after it's over because the Libyans will still have to form a constitution and get a government in place and so forth.

The difficulty is that the military objective, when it's accomplished, doesn't necessarily lead to the political objective that's being sought. This is what's puzzling to people on the outside.

Now, it may be that this is a stroke of brilliance. It might work out anyway. Just by providing the U.S. and coalition air cover may be enough to discourage Gadhafi.

He's lost two sons, reportedly, so far, and his effort might fall apart. The rebels might take over and everything would be happy. People would say, boy, it was a genius of a plan.

On the other hand, it might result in a stalemate. It's too early to know right now. KAYE: Yes. But if he is still in power after this operation, Odyssey, won't somebody still have to tighten the noose on the Libyan leader at some point, maybe send in some ground troops?

CLARK: Well, there are different ways to tighten the noose. And I think when you're in an operation like this, if the U.S. objective is to get rid of Gadhafi, then you have to use all elements of power, not just military, but economic, diplomatic, and legal to go after Gadhafi.

KAYE: All right. General Wesley Clark, appreciate your insight today. Thank you.

CLARK: Thank you.

KAYE: Earlier, we asked you for your thoughts on the U.S. involvement in Libya, and here's what you told us. We said we were going to share some of them.

Well, on Facebook, Riad says, "I think it's the moral obligation to help those in need. I am glad we are taking a big role in protecting the civilians of Libya."

Then there's this from Doug: "We have plenty to take care of at home. It's a waste of money when we have none to waste."

On our blog, William says, "We shouldn't be helping Libyans. These are the same Libyans who welcomed home as a hero the Pan Am bomber. Pick a side, any side. One is at bad as another."

But then there's this one: "As a Libyan, I think what the U.S. is doing or is trying to do is very helpful. Seeing my family and friends die every so simply, I say we need all the help we can get."

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us.

Confused by the new guidelines for putting kids in car seats? Well, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to sort it all out for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Welcome back.

It is not much of a view, but American children are going to spend more time facing their car's back seat. The American Academy of Pediatrics has decided that children should ride in rear-facing car seats until they're 2 years old. That's a year longer than under the previous guidelines.

CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has details for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's some new recommendations coming out of the American Academy of Pediatrics, specifically about car seats and saying that children up until the age of 2, or until they exceed the height and weight restrictions on the car seat, on the rear-facing car seat, should stay in one of those. It was previously 1 year, 20 pounds.

This is Mikey (ph). He's 23 months. He is in a rear-facing car seat, and this is exactly what the American Academy of Pediatrics say should be happening. They should stay in a rear-facing car seat until they are 2 years old at least, or exceed those requirements.

Now, this was based on a lot of data actually showing that car seats that are facing rear are much safer. Parents are better than ever about keeping their kids in car seats. And second of all, the number of deaths in car accidents of children have gone down as a result.

What they're saying, though, is if you look at a rear-facing car seat, if there is an accident, the force is sort of distributed across the body, as opposed to just on the head here. And that's what they say makes all the difference.

So, Mikey should be in a rear-facing car seat. Children up until 4'9" tall should be in a booster seat. And they say children 13 and under should always sit in the rear seat.

Now, kids aren't always going to be happy about this. You can see this here, possibly. But they say this is going to be much safer. And they say if a child has actually started sitting in a front seat, but it doesn't meet the guidelines yet, they should actually switch back.

Now, one of the things you might notice here is the legs may be a little squished, especially if a child is tall. You can buy bigger rear-facing car seats. They say that, typically, if a child has not switched already to a front-facing car seat, they really are not going to be too bothered by it. And Mikey doesn't seem too bothered by it either.

But again, some new recommendations coming out of the American Academy of Pediatrics, hopefully providing some additional safety for a lot of children out there.

Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: All right. Thanks, Sanjay.

And little Mikey there, how cute was he? By the way, his young assistant there, Mikey, the one who demonstrated the car seat so nicely for us, was Mikey Fernad (ph), the son of one of our writers here on NEWSROOM. He looks just like his daddy.

Well, it is 22 minutes past the hour. Time for a look at top stories.

Crews working to prevent a meltdown at Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant are making progress. They've restored power to the control room of the number 3 reactor. The next step is restoring air-conditioning so that workers can go inside and get the reactor's cooling system actually working again.

Two U.S. airmen are safe after their F-15 fighter jet crashed in Libya today. The Pentagon blames mechanical problems, not enemy fire. Both airmen ejected as the jet was going down. They suffered only minor injuries, luckily. A U.S. rescue team picked up the pilot. Libyan rebels found the other airman, then turned him over to coalition forces.

An investigation is under way into today's fire at the Egyptian Interior Ministry building in Cairo. A Ministry spokesman says an electrical malfunction may be the cause. The building was the site of a demonstration today by Ministry workers demanding higher pay, but they do deny setting the fire.

Chad Myers joins us next for a troubling update on where winds in Japan may blow the radiation next. So don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Welcome back. Chad Myers here.

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAYE: Hey, Chad, take a look at this. That is the Egyptian Interior Ministry in downtown Cairo today on fire.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes. And I think that is the facade. I think that is like fake stucco, synthetic stucco that's burning there, because it is on the outside of the building so much. So maybe not as much damage to the inside as you might think.

KAYE: Yes. Quite a scene, though.

The dramatic scene and what sparked it, we'll have details for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Now some other stories you may have missed. In Libya, the latest word is Moammar Gadhafi's forces are still attack being the town of Misrata. These attacks come after a U.S. fighter jet crashed in Libya today east of Misrata near Benghazi. The military says both crew members ejected after an equipment malfunction. The U.S. military picked up the pilot while anti-Gadhafi forces rescued the weapons officer. Both suffered minor injuries but are now safely back with the U.S. military.

Some positive news out of Japan and Fukushima Daiichi, the damaged nuclear plant. The workers have finally restored power to the control room inside reactor three, which has been a top priority as you know in recent days. This latest development is a key victory. One step forward toward getting the reactors' cooling systems back online. In the meantime, a faint trail of smoke is still rising from the plant, but the main concern today shifts to reactors one and two. Tokyo Electric's president says the damage to those two reactors is worse than they thought. The cause is unclear, but seawater may be corroding and damaging the reactor's core. Repairs are going to take a bit longer.

With every passing day, rescue workers are uncovering more bodies. The dead now is more than 9,000, with nearly 14,000 people still missing. Meanwhile, the concerns over Japan's nuclear crisis is spreading beyond its borders with tests showing radiation in the ocean. Tokyo Electric says they found high levels of radiation in sea water near the plant but the results were not a threat to people's health.

Workers are monitoring water and food sources nearby, but the radiation is clearly spreading. Here in the U.S. traces were detected in Seattle, but health department workers say the levels are extremely low and pose no health risk to anyone.

This is the Egyptian interior ministry, downtown Cairo. Take a look at that fire. It was following a protest earlier. You can see the flames on the roof, a massive plume of smoke. People were seen running from the building when this was all happening. Moments before this, thousands of ministry employees were protesting for higher wages. A ministry spokesman just issued a statement saying he suspects an electrical circuit malfunction may have sparked the fire.

One of the greatest players in the NFL will now be known as a registered sex offender. Lawrence Taylor pled guilty to charges he had sex with an underage prostitute last May. The NFL hall of fame linebacker was sentenced today to six years of probation and fined $2,000.

The nightmare of combat. Disturbing pictures of Afghan dead and their alleged link to American soldiers. We'll have details in "Globetrekking" right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: In the U.S. Civil War, the Union general William Sherman famously said, "War is hell." Two horrible examples, the My Lai massacre during Vietnam War and the abuse of inmates at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

Now, these pictures published in a German magazine there, "Der Spiegel" appear to show two American soldiers in Afghanistan posing over the bodies of Afghan civilians. The soldiers alleged to be involved are currently facing charges in military courts for killing civilians and mutilating their bodies.

Joining to talk about this, CNN International anchor and correspondent Michael Holmes. What do you expect, Michael, to be the fallout for this?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They're terrible, these photographs. The other ones that you see in "Der Spiegel," they're holding the head of one of the dead young farm boys up by the hair and smiling at the camera. These are the sorts of photographs.

The fallout, of course, is like we saw when we had Abu Ghraib and situations like that. The fallout could be considerable, certainly a potential for more tension between the U.S. and the Afghan government, which is already been widely complaining about civilian deaths in air strikes and the like. And also of course, there's the other thing. Provides propaganda ammunition for the Taliban, as well, working out there to persuade Afghans that the international forces are the bad guys. Those sorts of photographs are obviously just great ammunition for the Taliban.

KAYE: And no idea how the magazine got them.

HOLMES; No, they don't know. And they got more, apparently. They've got a lot more, they say. So, there could be more of this coming out.

Now, this was all part of the evidence against these guys who are now facing charges like murder, and part of the evidence brief, so obviously it's leaked somewhere along the line. But those charges are still going ahead, of course.

KAYE: We also want to talk a little bit about Syria. We've been reporting on the unrest in Syria. While it's been overshadowed somewhat, of course, by the civil war in Libya, but antigovernment protestors appear to be stepping up their demonstrations over what they say are years of abuse.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE (voice-over): For six days, people in the southern city of Daraa have taken to the streets. It began as a protest against the detention of more than 30 children, some as young as 10, who had written graffiti saying "The people want the fall of the regime."

The protestors soon added corruption and economic hardship to their list of grievances. Human rights groups say six people have been killed so far, most of them shot Friday by security forces. This video uploaded to YouTube was apparently shot at a funeral in Daraa Saturday.

(AUDIENCE CHANTING)

KAYE: The unrest has since spread to towns near Daraa, an important agricultural center close to the border with Jordan. On Monday, video was posted on YouTube apparently showing a protest in Eakhil, where a crowd chanted, "after today, no fear."

President Bashar al Assad has in some ways opened up a country tightly controlled by his father, allowing greater economic freedom and access to the Internet. But the regime's tolerance of dissent is very limited. Its extensive security forces, often in plainclothes, have moved in quickly. This cell phone video apparently showing the arrest of a woman protestor.

MARK TONER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: We condemn the violence by the Syrian government that caused the deaths and injuries of individuals that protested over the weekend - or over past week, rather. And we call on the Syrian government to exercise restraint and refrain from violence against these peaceful protestors.

KAYE: The U.S. has few options to influence events in Syria. But they seem to be acquiring a momentum of their own. With widespread protests being called for Friday on Facebook and other social media.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: Michael, you say you're actually surprised to see this happening in Syria.

HOLMES: yes, I am. Syria was one of a couple of countries in the region where you'd say, yes, it's not going to happen there, not going to happen there yet. It's going to take a long time. To see those sorts of demonstrations in the streets in Syria, they've got a regime there that will brutally repress any hint of opposition. And they're very brave, these guys, to be out there.

But it's like the fear barrier gets broken and then it gets a roll on its own. And with that happening in Syria where they've been under repression for decades, it's very significant.

KAYE: I also want to talk about Libya. We talked about this U.S. war plane that crashed there, mechanical errors, today. And one of the airmen on board was rescued by the opposition forces, which had a lot of us wondering, who is the opposition?

HOLMES: Yes. Well, it's a whole bunch of different people. There is a National Transitional Council that's been set up. Basically, it's an umbrella group of various opposition figures, but also a lot of just regular professionals, people like doctors and lawyers and academics and the like. And they talk about democracy and transparency and the rule of law and all of those things that we like to hear about in the West here.

And so, they are basically a government in waiting, if you like, and basing out of Benghazi in the east. But of course, when it comes or if it comes to a point where they actually need to move into power or something, then it's a very tribal society in Libya. There's a lot of worry about whether the tribal rivalries will come into play. And there is not something that is ready to just step into the breach if Gadhafi goes tomorrow.

KAYE: Yes, because you know, we keep talking about the opposition, so it's interesting to hear a little more detail about that. Michael Holmes, thank you.

HOLMES: Good to see you.

KAYE: Good to see you. We're going to continue the discussion just a little bit longer about Libya. The roller coaster relationship between Gadhafi and the West spans decades. Next, CNN's Carl Azuz joins us to break down the history of Gadhafi's rule in times of conflict and peace.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is outspoken and flamboyant, and many in the West have a vision of Libya without him. CNN's Carl Azuz is looking at the reasons why in today's big breakdown. How long, Carl, have these tensions existed? Really for decades, right?

CARL AZUZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely right. I mean, pretty much since Gadhafi came into power, relations with the West started going south. He sees himself as this great visionary, this revolutionary. That's a viewpoint not shared by many, even in the Middle East.

A few facts we want you to know about Moammar Gadhafi. He has been in power, as Randi said, for decade, 42 years as Libya's leader. When he came in, he had this idea of a state of the masses, a form of direct democracy. But in actuality, the U.S. CIA says it has become an authoritarian state with Gadhafi as the authority.

And one other thing I want you to know is he has sought broader leadership in Africa. He never saw himself as limited to Libya. This is somebody who recently summoned in 2008 roughly 200 African rulers to a meeting and had them dub him king of kings. So, he's always sort of fancied himself as this regional power.

KAYE: A bit of a climber, I guess.

AZUZ: Yes.

KAYE: Let's talk about this roller coaster of a relationship he's had with the West. He's had support, then he hasn't had support. It's kind of gone back and forth.

AZUZ: It has. It really goes back to when he came in. I mean, he has encouraged Muslims to take up arms against the West over the decades. He's been in power. Libya was implicated. He backed terrorism in the '70s and '80s; Libya being implicated in a Lockerbie bombing, at a bombing of a West Berlin nightclub that killed an American.

But then things changed in the late '90s. He started trying to improve relations with the West. He turned over some Lockerbie suspects that the international community wanted. He also eliminated weapons of mass destruction --

KAYE: Right. That was a big deal, a really big deal, when President Bush was in the White House.

AZUZ: Yes. And relations improved for a little while with the Bush administration in effect in the U.S. but then things took another southern turn. 2008, his son was arrested in Switzerland so Gadhafi responded by cutting off Switzerland's oil supplies. Then in 2009, there was a Lockerbie -- convicted Lockerbie bomber released early from Scotland for health reasons. He came back to Libya, and Gadhafi's government gave him a hero's welcome. There has been up and down with the West, but definitely more down during Gadhafi's term of power.

KAYE: It's so interesting. I was just talking to Michael Holmes about his supporters. He keeps talking about his supporters, but he really doesn't have any except those who are really protecting him and his family.

AZUZ: He - I mean, that's absolutely right. He's always sought to become this regional, dominant force. But there are many people, particularly people in the Arab world, who sort of see him as a loose cannon and certainly America has historically seen him as a terrorist. So, it's very difficult for him to get that status he has sought.

KAYE: All right. Carl, very good insight. Thank you.

AZUZ: Thank you, Randi.

KAYE: The U.S. taking a lead role in Libya, but should the U.S. really be playing any role at all? We're going to debate this, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: With our focus on the military operations in Libya and the U.S. involvement, we wanted to take a moment to talk about some of the weaponry that's being used in operation Odyssey Dawn. So let's start with the American F-15 Strike Eagle. There's a shot of it right there. That is the plane that actually went down in Libya. Both crew members are safe. But as you can see, the Strike Eagle at low altitudes, works in all kinds of weather and is also very well armed.

Next, let me show you the tomahawk cruise missiles. You can see it's pretty fast, traveling, oh, 550 miles per hour or so. It's normally programmed on the ship before being fired. The U.S. fired 20 of them into Libya in the last 18 or so hours. These were actually first launched operationally during Operation Desert Storm. A total of 159 tomahawks have been fired into Libya by the U.S. since the operation began on Saturday.

The missiles are being fired from American Navy ships in the Mediterranean. That includes this one here, that is the USS Barry. It's one of two guided missile destroyers there. The U.S. also had three submarines in the Mediterranean firing cruise missiles. This has about more than 346,000 officers on board. Meanwhile, one of them has since left the area, one of those ships.

Finally, let's talk about the USS Mt. Whitney. This is the command and control ship for the U.S. Navy Six Fleet. This is where it all happens. It's the command center for the coordinated operation going on right now. It has a crew of about 700. It has guns and rockets on board. Liaisons from the other coalition partners are also on board. U.S. Admiral Samuel Locklear is the coalition commander orchestrating Operation Odyssey Dawn from this very ship the Mt. Whitney.

The United States has taken a lead role in Operation Odyssey Dawn. Now officials are saying the U.S. is going to kind of pull back and let someone else take the lead. But the question remains, should the U.S. be involved at all? Here's Senator Richard Lugar's take.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R), INDIANA: I do not understand the mission because, as far as I can tell, in the United States, there is no mission. There are no guidelines for success. That may well be true with our allies, although conceivably they may have other missions in mind and simply trying to get security council clearance to proceed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Today we're putting the question to our Stream Team. Should the U.S. be involved at all? With us right now from Los Angeles is Richard Grenell, former U.S. spokesman at the United Nations. And in Washington, Jed Babbin, former deputy undersecretary of defense in the George H.W. Bush administration.

Jed, let me start with you. Should the U.S., in your opinion, be leading this operation in Libya?

JED BABBIN, FORMER DEPUTY UNDERSECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, couple of things to that. Number one, we shouldn't be involved at all. There is no interest sufficient in Libya to justify risking American lives and employing our military there. If we are going to do it, I guess we're going to have to be in command because the way we have our assets set up and the fact that we have so many of different kinds really means there's nobody else who can do it. Unless you have ships like Mt. Whitney, you have Awas, you have J-stars, you have a whole variety of aircraft and other assets. It's really hard for anybody else to do it. I don't think the Brits and French can do it. They certainly can't sustain it for very long even if they could.

KAYE: And Richard, let me ask you your take on that.

RICAHRD GRENELL, FORMER U.S. SPOKESMAN TO U.N.: You know, it's interesting because the Obama administration finds itself in a huge dilemma. In an attempt to try to be all things to all people, they have really been successful in making everybody angry at them. The left and the right. They came into this trying to slow the process down. The U.N. absolutely took the lead, the French took the lead. The French were actually trying to convince us. By the time the Obama team stopped dithering and figured out, OK, we should support this initiative, it was almost too late because everybody was angry.

The simple fact is, the U.S. military will always be in lead just by sheer expertise and knowledge and power. But the French started this diplomacy, and they were in the lead on the diplomatic side, and the U.S. was very far behind.

So, the two are not going to be equal just simply because our diplomatic leaders didn't really know what they were doing and by the time our military came in, of course, they always take control. And I think as Obama says it's going to be a short stay, and our military is going to back off and our diplomacy is going to have to play catch-up.

KAYE: Just to be clear, you're okay with us being there -- the U.S. being there, just really how the president handled it?

GRENELL: I think we absolutely should have been there. We should have been out front in the lead role. When you have a country like Libya that the opposition is gaining control over a madman and pushing back, it's clear that we have to stand and help democracy and human rights no matter where it's found.

KAYE: All right. Let me move on here. In terms of the end game, we seem to be getting mixed messages we're all talking about. Obama yesterday reiterating that Gadhafi has to go, but the Pentagon saying he's not the target of the air strikes, that he could even remain in power after all of this. What do you say to that, Jed?

BABBIN: Well, I this there's a lot of fog of war and most of it is coming out of the White House right now. We don't really know what the objective is. Admiral Mullen and the president have said, we're there for humanitarian purposes. We're not out to get Gadhafi. The French are out there being French and disagreeing and doing what they're going to do. But the basic point here is, if we're not going to get Gadhafi -- again, I do not believe we should be involved at all - but if we're not going to get him, we're effectively saying he can stay under certain circumstances. To me, that proposes an enormous and indefinite stay there.

I don't believe we can be there for very long. The assets we're employing there are badly need in Afghanistan (AUDIO GAP) other forces in the world. This is an open-ended commitment the president has made. It's extremely unwise.

KAYE: Richard, what do you think about Congressman Dennis Kucinich saying again today that Obama's and lack of congressional authorization are impeachable offenses?

GRENELL: You know, it's a ridiculous statement. But you've got to give it to him, he's very consistent at least.

The simple fact is, the White House has made a very clear objective. It's just everyone disagrees with the objective. Those who wanted us to go in faster are complaining that we should be in regime change, that when we have a chance to go get a madman like Gadhafi, we should do it. Didn't we learn our lesson from Saddam Hussein, that if you leave him in power. it's only going to cost us billions of dollars, a lot of lives and a decade of wasting time?

But the simple fact for the military crowd is, they're right. This is a very tough assignment when we're stretched thin in Iraq and Afghanistan. And they want to focus on those priorities.

KAYE: All right. Guys, we've got to leave it there. Jed, Richard, thank you. Very interesting discussion. Good to see you.

BABBIN: Thanks.

KAYE: A truly amazing finish in college sports this weekend, and it had nothing at all to do with basketball. Stick around. You will be inspired by this next story, I promise.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Time now for the "XYZ" of it.

While the sport world was focused on the NCAA basketball tournament over the weekend, a young man for Arizona set a new standard for achievement. His name is Anthony Robles. He's an Arizona State University wrestler who defeated the reigning champ from Iowa State in the 125-pound class.

Well, if that doesn't sound like a big deal to you, you should know that Anthony was born without his right leg. So, you can see why winning the NCAA wrestling championship is awe-inspiring. He first started wrestling in high school when he was 14. Sure, he couldn't do it as well as the other guys, but he never quit trying. In the last two years of high school, he went undefeated. At ASU, Anthony trained just as hard as his teammates. His coach said he ran stadium stairs with them and trekked up mountains (ph). He even runs track with them using his crutches. And by the way, he runs an eight-minute mile.

His missing leg was never really an obstacle for him. He turned it into an advantage, actually. It only made him more determined to succeed and to overcome. Anthony said he had butterflies in his stomach before Saturday's big match but relaxed after that very first takedown.

Immediately after the match when asked by reporters how he felt about people considering him an inspiration, Anthony said it was an honor but that he didn't get into the sport for attention. Well, like it or not, Anthony Robles is getting lots of attention, and all of it very well-deserved.

That will do it for me. CNN NEWSROOM continues now with Brooke Baldwin.