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Details of the Casey Anthony Trial; Raising Gender-Free Children

Aired June 04, 2011 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. Live at the CNN Headquarters in Atlanta.

We begin this hour with heavy gunfire in the streets of Syria. Just listen to that. You can hear security forces opening fire. Antigovernment demonstrators had gathered just after Friday prayers in the City of Homa (ph) to protest the arrest and killing of dozens of children. Human rights groups say more than 80 people may have been shot to death in those demonstrations. The violence isn't silencing the protests. Thousands gathered today at funerals for the victims of Friday's shootings.

In Yemen, the big question is where is the president? Well, he may have fled the country after Friday's attack on his presidential palace. There are conflicting reports whether he is in Saudi Arabia. President Ali Adbullah Saleh was slightly injured and four people were killed when the palace's mosque was shelled. Al Jazeera's reporting that Yemen's vice president is now acting president.

Security troops, meanwhile, are battling rebel tribesmen suspected of shelling that mosque...

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: In Yemen, the big question, is where is the president? Well, he may have fled the country after Friday's attack on this presidential palace. There are conflicting reports whether he is in Saudi Arabia. President Ali Abdullah Saleh was slightly injured and four people were killed when the palace's mosque was shelled. Al Jazeera is reporting that Yemen's vice president is now acting president. Security troops, meanwhile, are battling rebel tribesman suspected a shelling of that mosque.

Meanwhile, a militant group in Pakistan says, the man often described as al Qaeda's military brain is dead. Ilyas Kashmiri reportedly was killed by a drone air strike Friday night inside Pakistan. But officials in both Pakistan and the USA, they have not been able to confirm Kashmiri's death. Kashmiri has been described as one of the most dangerous men in the world and the top planner of major al Qaeda attacks. And we go now to Orlando, Florida. It is day 10 of the Casey Anthony murder trial. She's charged with killing her 2-year-old daughter Caylee back in 2008. Testimony today focused on hair recovered from Anthony's car. And FBI technician Karen Lowe testified that the hair definitely did not belong to Casey Anthony but could have come from her daughter. Lowe also said, the condition of the hair was presumed to come from a decomposing body. Anthony's defense attorney called Lowe's testimony unreliable opinion.

So, the best person to ask about all of this, about this case of course is Sunny Hostin. She's a contributor to IN SESSION, our sister network, truTV. Hello, Sunny, always good to see you.

SUNNY HOSTIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Good to see you.

LEMON: And this is a really, really sad story and a riveting story. So, listen, what is the big take away from this week's testimony. It's been a really good week, I would imagine, for the prosecution?

HOSTIN: It has been a good week for the prosecution, Don. And I think the big takeaway here is Casey Anthony is a liar, perhaps a path logical liar. She wove this web of lies over the 31 days that her daughter was missing. What I think was so interesting though Don, is that these lies were really complicated, really detailed lied. And I wonder then what the jury is going to think, if she takes the witness stand, is she telling the truth now? Was she telling the truth then? And so, the prosecution did a really great job of using the jailhouse videotapes to paint her out to be a woman whose stories you can't ever believe. So, I think really, that was the big takeaway here.

LEMON: Yes.

HOSTIN: Casey Anthony can't be believed.

LEMON: Yes. And you mentioned those jailhouse videos. I mean, they were just fascinating to watch. We're going to play a lot of them at 10:00 as we're doing an hour special, Sunny. How damaging are these videos to the defense?

HOSTIN: You know, I think they were very damaging, again, because we now know that the defense theory is that Caylee died by drowning in June of 2008. Yet, all of these tapes took place afterwards, and she's saying I can't wait to find Caylee, I believe that she's alive. You have to trust me. The last time I saw her was with the nanny, Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez (ph) who we now know is just a fictional character. These videotapes really I think gave us a bird's eye view into this family, the relationship between Casey and George Anthony, who of course she has accused of sexually abusing her. The relationship between Casey and Cindy Anthony, who really wanted to find her granddaughter. The relationship between Casey and her brother Lee, who she also accused of sexually abusing her. Really, we got a wonderful view into the dynamics of what many people are calling a dysfunctional family.

LEMON: I have to tell you, I think there's something about this story, and we'll discuss that later, that really hits the radar for women and for guys. I mean, you know, people are interested, and it's a sad story. When we were talking about it, they said, well, you know, is she going to take the stand, people were asking me? And you should, you got to ask Sunny, she's going to take the stand. And I feel like from these jailhouse videos that she had already taken the stand. This makes it appear like she has when you see her up there. Do you think she'll actually get on the stand or this is enough?

HOSTIN: I think that's a great point. It's not enough for the defense. She's got to take the witness stand, Don. Remember, that explosive opening statement by Jose Baez, I swear, I felt like I saw glimpses of Johnny Cochran in his opening statement. He made a lot of promises to this jury, and the only way for him to shore up those promises is to put Casey Anthony on the witness stand. I have been talking about it all week. And a lot of my Facebook fans are saying Sunny, is it going to happen? I'm taking bets, Don. She is going to testify, she has to.

LEMON: OK. You said it's almost a Johnny Cochran moment. Well, I have to ask you, do you remember, there were a couple moments when the glove didn't fit, and then he said, if it doesn't fit...

HOSTIN: That's right. You must acquit.

LEMON: ...you must acquit. And he said, I just kind of...

(CROSSTALK)

Has been a moment like that so far?

HOSTIN: I don't think so. I don't think we've had that, that Johnny Cochran moment in the courtroom other than the opening statements. But I think Jose Baez is really doing a spectacular job with a case that all of us thought was indefensible going into this trial. So, I think we're going to see some really wonderful lawyering in the defense's case in chief.

LEMON: Sunny, they're asking the jury here to connect a lot of dots, and all these working theories. Is that even possible? I mean, is it falling apart for them? Because it appears that she keeps contradicting herself.

HOSTIN: Exactly. I think the defense is asking the jury to connect a lot of dots. Again, in the defense' case in chief, they've got to connect those dots. And I think the way they do that is with Casey Anthony. But this is not a slam dunk case for the prosecution. And I know, Don, I have said this over and over again. This is a circumstantial case. No one is going to get on the witness stand for this prosecution and say that they saw Casey Anthony kill Caylee Anthony. No one is going to get up on the witness stand and say, they saw Casey Anthony put Caylee Anthony's little body into the trunk of that car. And so, this prosecution is working very hard in a very linear way of putting its evidence on, but have they proven first degree intentional murder beyond the reasonable doubt?

LEMON: Yes.

HOSTIN: Not quite yet, Don. Not quite yet.

LEMON: Let's not forget. We keep seeing, you know, the mom, the grandparents. There's a little girl was involved here, a child.

HOSTIN: That's right. There's a victim here.

LEMON: Yes.

HOSTIN: There's a victim here, and we all need to remember that, little Caylee Anthony.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Sunny Hostin, we appreciate it.

HOSTIN: Thank you.

LEMON: And as I mention a moment ago, we're focusing in on the Casey Anthony trial tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 10:00 p.m. Eastern. We'll going to answer all your questions. If you have any, you can send them to me on twitter, any comments. And we'll try to get to our panel of experts. It's a full hour on the death of Caylee, the investigation, the evidence, and even the public fascination with the case. I want to tell you, we have a former, we have a criminologist who actually worked on this case, he doesn't work with the agency anymore, so now, he can talk about it. He's going to join us at 10:00. It's going to be interesting. Make sure you tune in. News special, 10:00 p.m. Eastern.

OK. So, you see a cute baby. What do you do? You often ask, oh, is it a boy or a girl? Here, she is so cute. Well, the parents of this cutie pie refuse to answer that question. I know it's crazy. You'll going to hear the full story, an expert take on how bad or good an idea this is, coming up, next. It's a boy or girl, the parents won't say it. I mean, if you have been asking for information on social media, you can reach out to us on twitter, on Facebook, cnn.com/Don, and also in foursquare.com, as well. We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Why do we need to categorize? Why do we always need to compartmentalize? Why can't we just accept children for who they say they are, who they want to be?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right. I have an answer for that, but we'll get to that. That's sure, Kelly Davis (ph), she wrote a book about letting her 4- year-old son wear dresses and tiaras. Now, she's supporting the gender bending move of the mother and father in Toronto. The couples are raising their bundle of joys, Storm, her name is Storm, gender free, letting the child decide what sex to be. The grandparents don't even know which pronoun to use. But we know our resident human behavior expert Dr. Wendy Walsh has something to say about this. So, Wendy, here is the thing, my quick answer was, boys have one part. Girls have another. And that's the quick answer. DR. WENDY WALSH, HUMAN BEHAVIOR EXPERT: It's the quick answer, Don. But remember, what we're talking about are two different co constructs. So, one is biology, and one is gender orientation. And yes, a big piece of it is cultural. But, yes, there's a biological link. The problem I have with this, I have no problem with somebody exposing their kids to a whole range of gender stimulus or gender oriented toys and letting them choose what they like and what to play with, her boy wants to wear ballet dresses, great. The girl wants to play with trucks and guns, wonderful. But to deny gender creates shame. And now you're creating a sort of a third gender which is an androgynous child who's going to go to school. I mean, Don, are kids are not Science projects.

LEMON: Right.

WALSH: They're our children, and they're growing up in our culture.

LEMON: Yes. And they have to -- they have to sort of anyway, everyone has to assimilate. Because you have to get along and you have to move through culture. They say that their choice, their gender choice was based on extensive research. So, my question is, he's got or she has two older brothers. So, the two older brothers, they're going to let Storm know what sex he or she is. So, what if these boys choose to wear dresses or braids? Do they still -- does that concern you at all?

WALSH: No, I think, children, no matter what their biology says they are, can choose any kind of gender role or gender identity. That's not the problem. It's the fact that it's unmentionable. That creates a kind of shame around it. That's the piece that's weird for me.

LEMON: OK, let's move on, now and talk. This is something that you and I would talk about over coffee. We're going to talk about marriage now, because there's a new book, it's a marriage confidential, it says that half of divorces happen because of sheer boredom and nothing else. And one way to liven up the relationship Dr. Wendy is to have a non-monogamous union. I mean, does, quote, "swinging ever really work."

WALSH: Well, you know, monogamy is one choice. And it's not the only choice in our culture, it's been chosen in our culture because it's a pretty good way to have survival of the fittest. It keeps men around, parents together taking care of those kids. It keeps men from acquiring harems and competing against each other. They can more cooperate on Wall Street as hunters. And of course, there have throughout history and they exist in the world today, different kinds of constructs. The problem in modern American culture with these kinds of open relationships is eventually somebody gets jealous or somebody falls in love.

LEMON: All right.

WALSH: So, it may work for a little while but not in the long term.

LEMON: I really have only like thirty seconds and I want to ask you two of my questions if you will. All right. So, there's this marriage study, a Swedish marriage study that says, people who commute get divorces more often, 40 percent higher. And the question that people in the office, what is the cutoff, how many miles?

WALSH: How many miles? It's not about how many miles, it's actually more like gender does the commuting. Because more often the men are leaving. So, of course, this is my duh study. If you create a greater separation between the workplace and the family, and there's a woman left in the suburbs all by herself, probably working a part time job, a close to home, and a guy commuting an hour or more and back, and spending long days away from the family, yes, it's separation.

LEMON: All right. So, Wendy, you know, you're going to be joining us during our 10:00 p.m. show when we're going to do a special report on the Florida mother accused of killing her toddler. So, I have to ask you this, what do you make of this scene that's happening every day before the Anthony trial even begins? A rush to get a seat in the courtroom. I don't get this.

WALSH: Oh, Don. This is the perfect storm of what the American viewership are hungry for. Sex, lies, and murder. This is better than any great novel, and they want to be in the front row seat.

LEMON: All right. We'll see you at 10:00 p.m. tonight. Thank you Dr. Wendy.

Ahead, a somber anniversary marking the first case of a deadly epidemic and what's being done today to try and save lives.

But first, I want to tell you about this. New guidelines from the agriculture department. The food pyramid replaced by the simple plate, and the USDA recommends half of it, be fruits and vegetables. But what that cost you more money? Our Christine Romans has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): It's a message from the very top.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: Fruits. We're going to do some fruits here, we're going to do some berries.

ROMANS: A call to arms from the first lady. Her "let's move" campaign to combat high rates of childhood obesity and promote healthy eating and exercise.

OBAMA: We're all here today because we care deeply about the health and wellbeing.

ROMANS: But many people think eating healthier equals spending more money. Not so says, Deputy Secretary of Agriculture, Kathleen Merrigan.

KATHLEEN MERRIGAN, DEPUTY AGRICULTURE SECRETARY: I have been on a campaign, a crusade if you will, a myth busting exercise trying to say that actually, you can afford to eat fruits and vegetables much more than people think.

ROMANS: The USDA calculates.

MERRIGAN: A little bit -- less fruit vegetables, a little bit more for fruit, but if you boil it all down, it's 50 cents a cup. So, that means for a 2,000 a day calorie diet, you would spend somewhere between $2.18 and $2.50 to meet that half of plate recommendation.

ROMANS: It's not always easy, but you can actually save money.

MERRIGAN: We know that in this country on average, a family of four is spending about $185 a week on groceries. If you follow a healthy diet plan, as we propose, you can bring that cost down to $175.

ROMANS: Buy fruits and vegetables while they're in season. Frozen and cans are also OK, and have a plan when you hit the supermarket, and of course, there's always your own backyard.

(on camera) It's so interesting to see little first graders with their shovels, talking about composting and running a household where you're healthy. When you pack lunches, you try to pack 15 of a lunches where there's no waste. Tell me about that and no waste lunch.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: It gets little dicey sometimes, at 7:35, you're trying to make all the snacks and all the lunches for the day. But I find that kids are actually watching over our shoulders. Great, oh, you want to make sure you don't put that in a wrapper, or put it in a container that we can bring home and wash again. And it means the food that you're packing is better, too.

ROMANS (voice-over): Christine Romans, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: This weekend marks the 30th anniversary of the first reported cases of AIDS. This week, CNN hero is an HIV positive woman in Kenya who story shows how much things have changes and how much work remains to be done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICIA SAWO, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: Back in the 1990s, I believed that AIDS was a punishment from God. When I first personally tested HIV positive, it was, oh, my God, how could this happen to me? I fasted and prayed for years, hoping that I would be healed. When I went public, I lost my job, my husband lost his job. The landlord wanted us out of his house. The stigma was terrible. I realized that had been wrong. My name is Patricia Sawo. My mission is to change people's attitudes about HIV.

All that you need is accurate, correct information.

(INAUDIBLE) HIV is not a moral issue. It's a virus. I do a lot of counseling. When I'm helping somebody else who is HIV positive, I want them to know that you can rise from above this. The 48 children have the same type. Most of them saw their parents dying of AIDS. My HIV status brings some kind of a bond. I provide that motherly love and all their basic needs. HIV is making me a better person. We want to be there for people. So if we have it, we share it out. Bye. It's what I want to do because it's what I'm meant to do. God has good ways of healing. So, for me, I'm healed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Speaking of the battle against AIDS and memorials, the AIDS Memorial Quilt has traveled the world, and we will have part of it right here it our studio at 7 p.m. Eastern as well as an HIV positive woman who lost her mom and son to the disease. She's going to bring some of the panels that she made honor of them for that special tribute.

One's in the air, one's on the ground, and now, on the water I should say. And now, on the ground, the U.S. airlines plane made famous when it landed on the Hudson River is on the move. So, where's is it going?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: You know, last Sunday's Indianapolis 500 was really exciting for a rookie driver who established a first by just being in the race. Our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has his story in today's human factor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The 83 of Charlie Kimball.

CHARLIE KIMBALL, INDY CAR DRIVER: Growing up, I wanted to race professionally. I wanted to race Indianapolis 500.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: He's 10.9 seconds behind the race leader.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This year, Charlie Kimball finally fulfilled this dream. In order to get there though, he had to overcome a big hurdle. Four years ago, he was told he had diabetes. So Kimball took time to figure out how to cope with his diagnosis and figure out if he could race with diabetes. Something Indy Car officials said was a first. To qualify for these races, you not only had to be fast, he had to be healthy.

KIMBALL: If I go to high, my reaction time is slow, and I'm not competitive. If I go too low, I get like headache, go low enough, I could pass out and cause an accident.

GUPTA: His diabetes led him to a response, and Kimball's -- of mechanics, engineers, and his doctor. He has to make sure his body is ready along with his car, which now has special equipment.

KIMBALL: I wear a continuous glucose monitor which is a sensor that I have on my body, and it reads blood glucose, wirelessly transmits to a page or like display that I velcro to the steering wheel. GUPTA: And he has a back-up system designed by his father just in case.

KIMBALL: I have a drink bottle now within the car, fill it with orange juice, which is full of sugar. The two runs right into my helmet, and without having to take my hands off the steering wheel, I can drink that orange juice, bring my sugars up, and I don't have to stop. How are you?

GUPTA: Kimball's determined to get the message out that diabetes doesn't have to stand in the way of your dreams.

KIMBALL: I'm living proof that you can do almost anything you want in life with diabetes, even drive a race car a couple of hundred miles an hour.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: We should tell you that Kimball finished 13th. Nice job.

So, if you're taking a road trip on the east coast, you may find a piece of aviation history sharing the highway with you. The miracle of the Hudson plane is heading to the Carolina's aviation museum in North Carolina. Some stop lights and wires we're moved along the way to accommodate the airbus 320 size. Isn't that -- to look at? Much of the plane is intact from January, 2009 when Captain Sully Sullenberger (ph) landed it on the Hudson River saving everyone on board.

I'm Don Lemon of the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. Thanks for watching. See you back here at 7 p.m. SHOWBIZ TONIGHT presents The Jackson 5 right after a short break.

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