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Cruise Ship Runs Aground, 3 Dead; Outrage Over Inmate Pardons; Child Care Chopped; "Anonymous" Role in Occupy Movement

Aired January 14, 2012 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Don Lemon here. Thank you so much for joining us.

The pictures of the -- our first story are unbelievable. And we have some news just in to CNN. Two more survivors have been found in the cruise ship sinking off the Italian coast.

Take a look now, the eerie site of the Costa Concordia flopped over onto its side in the water.

And just minutes ago, we learned that firefighters have located two people still alive in there. But they haven't reached them yet. The ship ran aground and sent passengers scrambling for lifeboats.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

LEMON: Man, oh, man.

So, from the latest information that we have gotten, three people are dead among more than 4,000 who were onboard that ship. And they say 43 to 70 people could still be missing. An estimated 126 Americans were on the cruise ship but none of them appear to be hurt.

The Italian captain is under arrest now and he could be charged with manslaughter and abandoning ship. The ship is owned by a company called Costa Cruises, whose parent company is Miami-based Carnival Cruise Ships, the biggest cruise line the world. Of course, some passengers got off quickly and safely.

Others like American Benji Smith found the ship transformed into a dangerous obstacle course.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJI SMITH, AMERICAN WHO FLED CRUISE SHIP (via telephone): We scrambled around the ship looking for the best way to go. Some of us ran to the lower deck. Some of us ran to the upper decks. When we were afraid that the stair ways were flooded with water, we made ropes -- we made ladders out of ropes and used those ladders to climb down from the outer fourth deck to the third deck where we could kind of shimmy our way down the side of the ship.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did the ship --

SMITH: We climbed down the ship with rope ladders and waited clinging to those ladders for three and a half hours. And my family was picked up at 3:00 in the morning by one of the lifeboats that have brought people to shore. And --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You've heard it, there is an old saying that the captain always goes down with the ship, but apparently not this time.

Journalist Barbie Nadeau tells us what kind of trouble that captain is in -- Barbie.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBIE NADEAU, JOURNALIST: The captain of the cruise ship that ran aground here on the coast of Tuscany has been stopped by the Italian authorities. He's being investigated for manslaughter and for abandoning ship. These are two very serious offenses in maritime law. A number of the passengers today that we spoke to will not be surprised by the fact that this particular captain of this cruise ship has been found culpable in some manner.

There were numerous, numerous complaints about the way the evacuation was conducted, about the lack of information on the cruise ship for these people. They basically self evacuated in a number of ways because the ship was listing and they still hadn't called people to their muster stations which is where you go when your ship is in trouble and where you find your lifeboat.

The people took it upon themselves to help each other and to find the way off that ship. The divers who are looking under the water level of the ship at the Coast of Giglio, which is about 18 miles from where I'm standing right now, have stopped their search for tonight. They have not found any more bodies other than the three dead who were recovered from the water earlier this morning.

Their investigation will continue again tomorrow morning. They have a huge area of the ship that's underwater that they need to really take a look at. The divers have only finished a fraction of the search of that area. They are looking for bodies at this point. There are still 51 people unaccounted for. Whether that's an administrative error in terms of the lists of the passengers or whether those are actual fatalities from this accident, we are yet to find out.

This is Barbie Nadeau in Porto Santo Stefano, for CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Thank you, Barbie. Appreciate that reporting.

So, everyone is asking how could a 1,000-foot long cruise ship slam right into the ground?

Joining me now on the phone is Chris McKesson. He's an adjunct professor of naval architecture to University of New Orleans.

Chris, thank you so much for joining us. It seems like avoiding land is navigation 101. How did it happen?

CHRIS MCKESSON, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR OF NAVAL ARCHITECTURE (via telephone): Yes. Well, that is, in fact, pretty much navigation 101. Accidents do happen. Collisions with other ships at sea or what we call in this case, an ullition (ph), that's striking an immovable object.

But we do try to take account of that. In drawing of ships, we try to design ships to withstand certain types of damages so that the evacuations can proceed in an orderly way.

LEMON: And this is, I would imagine, this is a heavily traveled area. This is Giglio. And cruise ships go in this area. I mean, in your estimation, I'm not sure, you're not an investigator. But in your experience with this, were they traveling in a spot that they should not have been traveling in? Because the sand doesn't all of a sudden just show up.

MCKESSON: Well, I don't know those waters, of course, but it seems like that area is probably pretty well-charted. The Mediterranean has been traveled for some thousand years. And we certainly know that the ship and the rock aren't supposed to be in the same place at the same time.

I suspect from my own -- looking at the pictures of the damage, it almost looks as if they saw it at the last minute and they tried to swing the ship to the right to miss in the last minute. But just like when you're driving R.V. or something, when you swing the nose to the right, the tail swings little to the left. If you look at the photos of the ship, you can see that the rock embedded in the side of the ship's left port side after amidships as if exactly that happened. She swung her tail over and kissed that rock.

LEMON: Yes. I think they are saying very much off course. That's at least according to the initial reports here. And again, I'm wondering if you're surprised by this, having, you know, you deal with cruise ships. There are two survivors who were found inside of the ship, and most likely, I would imagine they still haven't gotten them out there on the higher side of the ship. And there would be plenty of room if you look at these pictures for them to have a place that's not under water.

MCKESSON: Well, of course, it's horrible situation for the people and whole the industry's hearts go out to the people involved in this. Put it in context -- let's bear in mind that we are talking about a ship with 4,000 people onboard. That's about the same size as 20 jetliners. So, if we try to imagine some sort of aviation disaster involving 20 aircraft, it's frankly remarkable that we've had as few injuries and fatalities as we have.

The shipping industry remains very safe in general. That doesn't reduce the impact. Any one life lost is one too many.

The people trapped on board -- apparently, they are on the high side of the ship. There is good reason to believe they will be able to evacuate them if that's where they are located. I'd hate to be in that situation myself I must say.

LEMON: Hey, Mr. McKesson, can I ask you? There have been comparisons to the Titanic here. Do you see a comparison at all to that?

MCKESSON: Actually, it's remarkably similar. And I guess we're approaching the 100th anniversary of the Titanic.

Titanic similarly grazed an object on her side. In her case, it was an iceberg and in her case, as the water came in, she tore multiple compartments open. The water came in. And as she settled down in the water, the water was able to flow from compartment to compartment, creating a cascading effect that eventually led to the loss of the ship.

The result of that accident in the engineering side was that we rewrote the ways that we design ships, and those bulkheads that separate the compartments run all the way up to the main deck of the ship. So, you can't get that cascading effect. And we design ships to withstand a certain number of those compartments being breached simultaneously.

LEMON: Yes. And we were just looking at the hole in the hull there. And the huge gaping hole there. And the question is -- there it is right there. It looks like the ship did what it was designed to do and left a -- you know at least a big portion of it on the high side for people to escape to safety.

But the question is, what will happen to the ship? Is it eventually going to go under? Or can it be towed? What's going to happen?

MCKESSON: I'm sure she is sitting on the bottom now. She's rolled over and leaning and really resting her right side firmly in the sand. That's actually likely to make the salvage operation a little bit easier because the hole is above water and salvagers might be able to put a patch or something on that. And then it's a matter of pumping the ship out or floating her erect again and towing her for repair.

She is a relatively new ship. She's about a $600 million ship built by one of the best shipbuilders in the world in the cruise line business.

LEMON: All right. Chris McKesson is an adjunct professor of naval architecture at the University of New Orleans. Appreciate you joining us and sharing your expertise, sir. Thank you.

I want to go to Mississippi where former Governor Haley Barbour says he is at peace with his decision to pardon several convicted murderers. But he is taking criticism from virtually every direction.

CNN's Martin Savidge is in Jackson for us. He tracked down one of the convicted killers now free and the brother of his victim as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Ronald Bonds wants to see his sister, this is the only way -- a photo album. RONALD BONDS, JENNIFER MCCRAY'S BROTHER: That's Jennifer. Yes.

SAVIDGE: Jennifer McCray was murdered in 2001 by a man Ronald knew, her husband.

BONDS: We grew up together.

SAVIDGE (on camera): Really?

BONDS: We were good friends.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Anthony McCray shot his wife in a back, in front of a room full of witnesses in this spot on the outskirts of town.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would have stood right here, and his attorney right there.

SAVIDGE: McCray admitted the killing in court and the Judge Michael Smith sentenced him to life in prison.

Last Sunday, Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour set McCray free after less than 10 years.

(on camera): Do you think he should have been let out?

BONDS: If you kill somebody, you need to do time, you know? He took someone's life, you know what I'm saying?

SAVIDGE (voice-over): As a prisoner, McCray worked at the governor's mansion. The governor got to know him and came to trust him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this week, Barbour pardoned him -- which means in the eyes of the law, the murder never happened.

BONDS: You are going to give a murderer, someone who shot a female person that they said they love and shot them in the back? You know what I'm saying? You wipe his slate clean?

SAVIDGE: For Bonds, there is no fresh start. He misses Jennifer every day, especially as he raises her now 18-year-old son, also named Anthony McCray.

(on camera): Let me ask you, as the son of a man who was convicted of murdering your mom, what do you think of all this?

ANTHONY MCCRAY, 18-YEAR-OLD SON: I just have to forgive him and the fact that he did it and she's gone. And I got to move on in life.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): And that's where this story might have ended, if it weren't for what happened next.

(on camera): So, we were led to this street here. It's an area where Anthony McCray used to live. A person in the neighborhood pointed out that Anthony McCray was inside the house. We're going to go look.

Hello?

(voice-over): I knocked on the door. McCray came out and I couldn't believe it.

(on camera): You are the man who was convicted of killing Jennifer McCray?

ANTHONY MCCRAY, PARDONED BY GOV. BARBOUR: Yes, sir.

SAVIDGE: The man who has been pardoned by Governor Barbour.

MCCRAY: Yes, sir.

SAVIDGE: He told me it was like to be free.

MCCRAY: I've been saved. I've been baptized. I've been reading the Bible for 12 1/2 years, so this is truly a blessing. I didn't do this. God did this. God touched Haley Barbour's heart to do this for us.

SAVIDGE: Do you think that people should be angry at Governor Barbour for pardoning you?

MCCRAY: No, sir. We treat us like we his children.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): But Judge Smith is angry. He says it's wrong to overturn his ruling when the murder was so blatant.

JUDGE MICHAEL SMITH (RET.), FOURTEENTH CIRCUIT COURT: There is no question, they have witnesses they had in the McCray case. I don't think that the governor should have authority to pardon the defendant.

SAVIDGE: Do you think because of the public anger, you may have to go back?

MCCRAY: There is a great possibility.

SAVIDGE: Judge Smith hopes he's right, not just in his case but in the case of the other three murderers Barbour freed as well, saying the pardons would only brought back pain.

SMITH: Now they will back where they started from.

SAVIDGE: The families you mean?

SMITH: The families and the victims.

SAVIDGE: Back in what sense in?

SMITH: Back in the grief and the misery that the murders caused.

SAVIDGE: If you could talk to Governor Barbour, what would you ask him?

BONDS: Did you think about? You know what I'm saying? Did you think about how many people it would effect? (END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: That was the son of convicted killer Anthony McCray talking to Martin Savidge his name is Anthony McCray. There he is. Martin Savidge joins us now live. He's in Jackson.

So, Marty, what does Haley Barbour have to say about himself now?

SAVIDGE: Well, the governor has come out several times. First in a statement, and then yesterday, he spoke to the local media. He wouldn't talk to us. And he did talk to FOX.

He's maintained defiantly that what he did was the right action. He believes that granting the pardons was a good thing. In fact, he says that he trusts those murderers to work in the governor's mansion, as many of them did. In fact, he said he trusted them so much he allowed them to play with his grandkids. That he says is proof that they are clearly reformed and could do no one no harm.

Many in the public don't buy that right now.

LEMON: Martin Savidge, thank you. Appreciate your reporting.

Now to the news tonight. U.S. Marines investigated for apparently urinating on the corpses of Taliban fighters. A good friend of the show who's also a former marine weighs in on what they may have been thinking. That conversation you don't want to miss it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: OK. We have a warning for you now that some of you might find this next video disturbing. So, I give you a minute before. There we go. So, if you have kids in the room take them out.

It appears to show four U.S. marines urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban fighters in Afghanistan. Investigators have now met with those marines and the Marine Corps, says that there will be a full investigation. They're going to investigate this fully.

Political analyst Goldie Taylor is here.

Goldie, you are a former marine. And I have to ask. Look, we played a little bit more and you can actually hear them. You can hear everything going on and them saying basically, you know, it's, you know, what on your grave, sort of talk like chest beating.

What did you think when you heard about this?

GOLDIE TAYLOR, POLITICAL ANALYST: I was disgusted first and foremost. This is not our training. This is not my Marine Corps. This is not the Code of Honor they were inculcated with when they come into the Marine Corps. Young men and women who are trained -- tens of thousands of dollars used to train us in the art of defending this country and our national security.

And so, when I look at that and look at what four marines did to defame my Marine Corps, then I'm disgusted.

LEMON: So, when you were in the Marines, if anything -- quite honestly, if something like this had happened, do you think anything like this would have happened? Is this out of the ordinary for the Marine Corps?

TAYLOR: There is always an outlier.

LEMON: OK.

TAYLOR: But that's why there are Uniform Code of Military Justice law in place. That's why there is a Geneva Convention to protect us and our combatants from this kind of behavior. The Geneva Convention is clear: we are to intern dead combatants when we can, and in an honorable and respectful way. This was as far from that as you can get. I don't blame the command. I simply don't blame the Marine Corps. I blame the four marines who did it.

LEMON: Yes. What do you think should happen to them?

TAYLOR: They're going to be court-martialed.

LEMON: Do you think that should happen?

TAYLOR: Absolutely. They ought to be court-martialed. They ought to be sent home dishonorably and lose all benefits.

LEMON: I have heard in so many places. I've read in the some many places. And I even heard from -- on television, read in the newspapers. I've heard it -- seen it in blogs and heard people I've spoken to personally say, how can you judge them because you're not over there in war. You don't know what those people are going through. You are sitting in your air-conditioned home and air- conditioned studio, and you're passing judgment on these marines. Don't do that. We don't know.

And some people say, hey, look, basically saying they condone it. Let's be honest.

TAYLOR: Those are the same people who haven't served themselves. So, if they're sitting in their air-conditioned home, I question whether or not they themselves have been on the front line. When we are out there fighting for the security of this country, there are protocols by which we do that. They are in place for a reason.

And they keep us safe. They insure our national security. This isn't just about a dumb prank. This is about using these tapes as propaganda for people who would, you know, fight against us.

LEMON: What about people who have a voice and a platform to who -- I know you've heard it.

TAYLOR: I've heard it. And I've heard it on this air frankly. And that is disgusting in and of itself -- not as satire, not as a joke. But to say you would drop trial and do the same thing. You know, I question someone's integrity who would say something like that. You know, I want to know if they understand what our young men and women are up against every day. I don't want to demonize the men and women who serve our country. You know, I honor them and I served alongside them, and I'm actually proud of them.

But when something like this happens, we have to stand up and call it for the behavior that it is.

LEMON: Yes. OK. We've got to go. But just one line on this, we've been talking about, I' m going to change subjects here. About Haley Barbour, because I know you're a political analyst, when you -- with the pardons.

I think what you said to one of our producers, he done gone and lost this -- what did you say?

TAYLOR: He done gone and lost his mind.

Haley Barbour, if he tells you that the water is rising, you ought to get your boots. He is one of the most savvy political prognosticators there is of this time. And so, I want to know what is going through his head to put 200 people, some of them violent offenders, back on to the street without really a credible explanation. And so, he didn't bring in the families. These people didn't put forth the -- there was supposed to be a newspaper article --

LEMON: Thirty days, yes.

TAYLOR: Thirty days notice, that didn't happen. And so, I'm really, really concerned when you got 200 people, not one or two as the past governors of Mississippi put out, but 200 people put out without explanation. There's a reason we took that right away from the governor. There's five-member pardons and parole board. I suspect that's going to happen in a place like Mississippi.

LEMON: Always speak your mind and we love it. Thank you, Ms. Taylor.

TAYLOR: Thank for having me.

LEMON: All right. We'll see you tomorrow.

Up next: religious conservatives meet in Texas to throw their support behind one of the Republican candidates for president. We'll tell you who they're backing right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Religious conservatives meeting in a ranch outside of Houston have decided to throw their support to Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum. The group heard pitches today from surrogates for the GOP candidates. Santorum was chosen after three rounds of voting.

Tony Perkins is the president of the Family Research Council and he was asked by our very won Fredricka Whitfield if he thought Santorum could get the GOP nomination. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY PERKINS, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: I think that is the thinking of the leaders that were there that it's time to get off the sidelines and move into the process and express support for the candidate that is most conservative.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: South Carolina primary is one week from today by the way.

That Texas gathering has grabbed headlines, but there is a Tea Party meeting Sunday in South Carolina that's also creating a bit of buzz.

Let's talk about it now with CNN political reporter Shannon Travis who is in Myrtle Beach.

What can we expect, Shannon?

SHANNON TRAVIS, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: You can expect for the Tea Party to basically try and prove that it is still relevant. You know, Don, that they've been facing questions about whether the movement is still relevant heading into the most political season for them at least.

You know, I have been covering the movement since 2009. And they were popular and they were powerful and they have the ear of a lot of politicians. But they have waned. Their influence has waned somewhat since then.

So, tomorrow will be about a show of force. Hey, we're still here. Hey, we can still get out big game politicians.

We've got Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum coming to this event. Nikki Haley, the governor of the state, she got her job on a lot of Tea Party support, and Jim DeMint. He's been a big Tea Party supporter.

So it will be a few hundred grassroots activists coming out and saying, you know what? We can still affect change and have a voice in this political season -- Don.

LEMON: Hey, let's talk about the evangelicals that are meeting -- the conservative leaders also, they decided to back Rick Santorum. Good news for him, of course.

TRAVIS: You can best believe. I mean, the e-mails from his campaign and his supporters have been flying since then. Yes, this is good news for him. I mean, this kind of Santorum momentum started. You were when Bob Vander Plaats, he's an influential social conservative in Iowa, endorsed him a few weeks ago, and then he came in second in Iowa, eight votes behind Mitt Romney, did very well in New Hampshire. And now, this -- in a state like this that values these endorsements like this from social conservatives.

But just a few problems with this, though, Don. For one, it's coming pretty late in the season. So, if the goal of these social evangelical leaders is to coalesce around an anti-Mitt Romney candidate, then Mitt Romney has already won big two races.

And the other thing is in order for the strategy to work, coalesce around one guy to take on Romney, the others would have to drop out. Newt Gingrich or Rick Perry or what have you, and we have no sense that that's happening any time soon.

So, it's anyone's guess whether this endorsement will fall on deaf ears or will really, really help Rick Santorum -- Don.

LEMON: Whatever it is, we will be following it -- Shannon Travis as well.

Thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Next, working parents making tough decisions who will watch their kids while they're at work. And we meet one mom who is concerned for her son's future.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: States across the U.S. have been forced to trim their budgets and find places to cut back. And as our Athena Jones reports many times child care assistance ends up on the chopping block.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is red.

ANDREA STUBBS, SINGLE MOTHER: At two he was doing four-year-old skills.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Andrea Stubbs' son, Adrian, has thrived in daycare.

STUBBS: He amazes me. He learns words like debonair. He is putting together sentences. He just amazes me.

That's not a bunny. What's that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A rabbit.

JONES: A single mother Stubbs lives with her grandmother and works at a university cafeteria. She earns roughly $680 a month, about the cost of daycare fees.

STUBBS: I really like it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has two hands.

JONES: Until a year ago she was able to pay those fees with the help of child care vouchers the state of Maryland provides for low income families. She lost that assistance after problems with her paperwork and had to reapply.

STUBBS: From then on my son is being juggled. I keep him until about 2:30 the latest I can leave and see if I can get my aunt to keep him until my mom comes home to pick him up and take him with her. It's a lot.

JONES: Now she is one of 9,000 families on the state's waiting list.

ELIZABETH KELLEY, MARYLAND OFFICE OF CHILD CARE: We don't typically have a wait list in Maryland. We had to implement one last year because of limited funding for this program.

JONES: As federal stimulus funds dried up and the states continued to face budget short falls the child care assistance suffered. Families in 37 states had less access to aid in 2011 than they did the year before. According to the National Women's Law Center and that negative trend continues.

HELEN BLANK, NATIONAL WOMEN'S LAW CENTER: We don't help enough families. We don't give families enough help and we don't provide enough support to the child care programs (INAUDIBLE) so they can give them the strong start they need to be ready for school.

JONES: Advocates say early childhood education is key to preparing a child for school and the governor should invest more in the area.

BLANK: We can't be a strong country if we don't invest in early childhood education.

JONES: Andrea Stubbs has no idea when she will have access to state aid. She hopes to eventually get a better paying job so she can send Adrian back to daycare.

STUBBS: I want the best for my child. I want a better paying job so his future can be as bright as possible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Ahead what are the three biggest mistakes that people make with their money. We'll ask financial expert Terry Savage what they are and what to do about them.

But first, American classrooms are becoming more diverse and many schools are challenged with educating children about different cultures. Some teachers say they simply can't spare the time in their already crowded curriculum.

CNN's education contributor and school principal Steve Perry offers his perspective.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEVE PERRY, CNN EDUCATION CONTRIBUTOR: One of the biggest challenges for America's public schools is to meet the diverse interests of our country. And I don't care where you are and I don't care what school you run there is always going to be a group that feels like their perspective wasn't engaged. It's not just about gays and lesbians versus Native Americans versus African-Americans versus white people.

We've got it all wrong. What we need to do is understand that our children need to learn about cultures as many as we can but understanding that we're not going to be able to do a deep dive because the beauty of this country is there are so many cultures. So there's always going to be a group who feels like their culture wasn't represented effectively enough. This is where the community comes in. And the sooner we understand it the better.

Schools can do what they do. Let's get them to do something well first which is to teach children how to read, write, and compute.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

LEMON: That's a great song. I love that song. You know, we can all make money mistakes but often we are afraid to even try to figure them out because we don't want to make the situation even worse.

Terry Savage is the author of the book "The Savage Truth On Money" and the nationally syndicated "Chicago Sun Times" personal finance columnist. She is in a cold and snowy Chicago. Oh, I hope you are bundling up there. Listen, she is here to tell us -

TERRY SAVAGE, AUTHOR "THE SAVAGE TRUTH ON MONEY": We are.

LEMON: You are going to tell us about the three biggest mistakes that we can make with our money and what to do about them. I understand the first one has to do with closing our eyes. What do you mean by that?

SAVAGE: Yes, absolutely. Let's make it clear. What we're talking about is not so much money as human nature. And it's human nature not to want to know bad news and so we've got a lot of people who are getting credit card bills or year end statements from your 401k or IRA, whether this, whether you are in debt or you're trying to look at your investments are. People close their eyes and they say they don't want to see it. That's really a recipe for trouble.

Open those statements. Write everything down. Take a sheet of paper and draw a line down the middle. On one side put down on there what you own. Maybe it's the value of your savings or your IRA. On the other side add up all your bills everything, your mortgage, your credit card bills, your student loans. Take a look. Don't close your eyes. The first step with dealing with these issues is to take a close look.

LEMON: Reality. You have to deal with reality.

SAVAGE: Reality.

LEMON: And also you - being stubborn, right? That can be a mistake.

SAVAGE: Again we're dealing with human nature. This happens to people whether they have money or they're buried in debt. Because when you start thinking about your money and the mistakes you have made you get paralyzed. You think you just simply cannot change. Well, look, if you like the way your finances ended you don't have to change. But if you want something to be different this year you have to change. It could be as simple as the way you pay your bills, the amount of credit cards you carry in your wallet, taking a look and getting some online advice about your investments but you got to be open to change. Being stubborn will just keep you back in the same spot this time next year.

LEMON: I feel like this is money therapy. You are the money therapist because -

SAVAGE: That's what it is about.

LEMON: Because I know that you say, Terry, that another big mistake is being emotional, making emotional decisions about money. But it's hard not to become emotional when you're dealing with money.

SAVAGE: Yes, absolutely. We have to accept those emotions. They're there. I just don't know anyone except a few traders on the floor that have, you know, ice water in their veins. But you have to recognize that when you make money decisions you are confronted with two emotions that never hit you in every day life. They are fear and greed.

And you know, you don't think about those things when you are trying to decide what movie to go to or do I like this dress or something like that but when you make a decision about your finances those two emotions can overwhelm you. Greed, we know how dangerous that is. It makes you think that home prices will always go up or stock prices will always go up.

If I only did this, I can make so much money. Fear is equally dangerous. It paralyzes you and it keeps you from changing and doing things differently. Greed blinds you to risk and fear paralyzes you. So you have to recognize those emotions. Stop, take a deep breath and start thinking with your brain. Emotions, it's been proven, get to our brain faster than logical thought. So you have to stop and take a break there. We are really talking about human nature there. It's all of us.

LEMON: When you become emotional stop, don't act on it. Wait until you get logical. Let some time pass. So Terry, I want to say to you, we are glad you joined us on a Saturday night. We'll keep you warm, at least for a few minutes in our studio and get back out in the snow because I know you got to go home and it's cold there.

SAVAGE: You're so right. Thanks, Don.

LEMON: All right. Next up a story that could make you question, really question your racial identity. You don't want to miss this. It's called passing. Thousands of African-Americans did it during the Jim Crow days. We'll explain the meaning of the one drop rule right after this break.

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LEMON: Are you 100 percent white or black? You sure about that? Pay attention to this next story. Because in the years following the abolition of slavery some Americans feared a rise in interracial relationships. States began to passing laws to make sure that any child with a negro and white parent would be considered black and denied the rights of white people. In other words, a child with even one drop of negro blood would be classified as negro.

This became known as the one-drop rule. A standard ruled unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1967 but some experts in race relations say the legacy of the one-drop rule still exists in today's culture and there are a lot of people in the culture today who think they are white and they may not be. One such expert is (INAUDIBLE), an African-American studies scholar who does research on skin color politics.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Explain what the one-drop rule is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The one-drop rule historically, also known as the rule of hypo descent was really substituted to protect whiteness. It was a way for the white majority to be able to name and cite who was white.

LEMON: So it was one drop which is 1/32.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 1/32 of negro or African blood would make that person negro or African, whatever the classification they used at the time.

LEMON: Why do this project? I mean what is the purpose?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a way for us to think about identity, a way for people to define their blackness if you will above and beyond legality. So we see blackness as a richer identity than just one drop of blood. How do you quantify blood?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What makes me black is my cultural ethnic racial background.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so what happens is when you read these contributors' narratives you come see to see how they see themselves as black or African-American.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am black and I'm proud of it. I'm black and I'm proud.

LEMON: Why is that important, doctor?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's important for us to be able to see how people themselves identify. What's interesting is most people in the project say they have this experience of people walking up to them and saying what are you. So you can look let's say you look at the website, some of the contributors, you might say they are black. They're black. She could pass, right? This idea of passing. But it's not they are not trying to be anything other than who they are. LEMON: Yes, I can so relate to that because everyone in my family is lighter than me. Most people I should say on my family, especially on my mother's side. And the people would mistake my mother for white when I was a kid and say "No, your mom wasn't in here" and I'd say, "Yes, that's my mom." "Oh, I thought she was white. So people want to categorize that. What is it inside of people that makes them want to put everyone in a category? So they know what to do with it? What difference does it make?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the reality is that America was founded on race and racial difference and still race absolutely defines our experience.

LEMON: But I hear people say we're in a post-racial society.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The reality is in order to get beyond something you have to understand it, right? And where in your education, where have you been required to learn about race?

LEMON: They don't teach it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is the foundation of this country. We have to talk about race. We have to talk about racial difference. It is just a flat out lie for us to believe that we have moved beyond race.

LEMON: Let's talk about colorism. I write about - I have a book and I write about colorism, about the difference between having light skin and dark skin. Light skin was - you were a bit more privileged. Still in society, people think that way but it used to be worse. Let's talk about the privileges of having light skin even if you are a person of color.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whiteness is normal tev (ph). So that means is that whiteness comes to define what is human, what is valuable, what is beautiful.

So when we look at women the ways in which we determine a woman's beauty is based upon her proximity to the white ideal, aquiline features, straight hair, perhaps colored eyes, different complexion and the same holds true for men. So again, I think sub-conscious or otherwise historically what that has said or communicated is that if you are of lighter skin we can assume that you have white in your blood and to have white in your blood makes you less African, makes you less barbaric, makes you more civilized.

LEMON: So the one-drop project is just a catalyst that names the catalyst to have a discussion about race. What is so hard about it? Why do you think people find it so hard to have a conversation about race?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To discuss race is uncomfortable. You know, historically white people have been associated with the oppressor. Historically, black people have been associated with being the oppressed. Some people don't want to deal with that reality. I don't want to be associated with that. I'm not that kind of person. I'm not racist. But to talk about race is not to name someone racist, it's just to say let's deal with reality we're in.

LEMON: Well, the interesting thing I know because I get it every time there is a discussion about race, people say "Oh race will the be over if you guys on TV stop talking about it." And I go "Come on."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where in history do we have an example where silence changed anything? We don't have that example. So silence doesn't make stuff go away. It just makes it silent.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Well, the conversation continues online, just log on to CNN/inamerica beginning tomorrow. You can also read my personal story on the one-drop rule, passing for white and colorism while growing up in Louisiana in the 1960s and 1970s.

Up next in this broadcast, a special CNN investigation. They lurk in the shadows and prey on the powerful. We're going behind the mask of the hacking group Anonymous. Could you be a target? We'll get answers from our Amber Lyon, next.

Also here's Fredricka Whitfield with a look at what's ahead tomorrow. Hey, Fred.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Don.

While much of the nation has not received much snow this winter quite the opposite in Alaska. In the fishing community of Cordova, they are still digging out of a record 18-foot snowfall. The National Guard is there to help move the snow. One problem, where to put it? And that's just the tip of the iceberg testing survival skills there with three more months of winter. We catch up with the editor of the "Cordova Times" tomorrow, 2:30 Eastern time. Don.

LEMON: All right. Fredricka, thank you very much. We're back RIGHT after a quick break.

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LEMON: All right. You may have heard of the hacking group, Anonymous. They have made headlines for hijacking web sites, stealing credit card numbers and hacking into the computers of government and business entities.

CNN's Amber Lyon got a chance to get to know Anonymous and she takes us inside this secretive group.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, back up, back up.

AMBER LYON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a dark and disturbing vision. A world where riot police attack with impunity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened? What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He got (INAUDIBLE) shot!

LYON: Where democracy is corrupted by greed and dissent is crushed. That's how Anonymous sees America, and they say that's why they're fighting back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget.

LYON: Troy, not his real name, is one of them. We met him at the Occupy Wall Street camp at Ducatti Park.

"TROY," ANONYMOUS: There's no specific person that talk to us. It's more like a "Hi," you know and ideas brought up and whoever agrees with it, if the overwhelming majority of people agree with it, then we go with it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are Anonymous.

LYON: Anonymous likens itself to the air force of the Occupy movement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone, everywhere will be occupying their towns, their capitals and other public spaces.

LYON: When they see evidence of what they believe is police misbehavior, Anonymous strikes back, releasing personal information about specific officers.

"TROY": Hopefully he'll think twice before he pulls out his baton against somebody who is holding a sign say we go just want peace.

LYON (on camera): And how are they getting the cell phone numbers and personal information of these officers or bankers?

"TROY": I'd rather not say.

LYON (voice-over): The Department of Homeland Security has put out several alerts to law enforcement and the corporate security focused mainly on the group's hacking activities and the FBI has made more than a dozen arrests.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're living in a police state.

LYON: But there's no indication that has cramped Anonymous' style.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all on planet earth.

LYON: On Christmas day members crashed the web site of a security research company, hacking its client list along with their credit card numbers in order to steal $1 million for donations to charity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are anonymous. Expect us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: That's just a small part of it. It looks fascinating. There's Amber Lyon. She is live with us from Portland, Oregon.

Anonymous has taken up the Occupy movement's cause, Amber. But just today in a new development that we're fearing. They have targeted media executives, including one at our parent company, Time Warner. What brought this on? I think it has to do with a SOPA, which is Stop Online Piracy Act, right?

LYON: Yes, Anonymous is very upset because they feel that these media execs are sporting SOPA. And SOPA would make it illegal. You could face jail time if you posted any type of copyrighted video, TV movie clips on sites like Youtube. Now, one side of the story, Don, you've got these media execs saying SOPA will protect their ability to generate an income, also protect intellectual property. On the other side though, you have Anonymous saying that this is internet censorship. And a lot of areas within this collective are gray.

One thing, though, Don, black and white, is how much anons just detest any type of internet censorship. So in the year to come in 2012 we're going to see a lot more victims of the luls, which we'll tell you more about in the special, the infamous luls. Don.

LEMON: Let's talk more about tonight's special because there is a focus on how Anonymous sees itself, like the Occupy movements. It sees itself as the Occupy movement's watch dog and keeping an eye on police during the protests. But you didn't have any luck getting law enforcement to talk with you on camera for tonight's special. Why is that?

LYON: Well, that shows you, Don, just the power of this collective and the fear, how much enemies of this collective or perceived enemies fear ticking Anonymous off. In this situation Anonymous has kind of had a beef with some law enforcement agencies over what they feel were human rights abuses during some of these Occupy protests. So we reached out to federal, local law enforcement agencies to get an interview and no one would offer up any type of spokesman or officer to speak about Anonymous because they were too scared that person would then become a target, Don.

LEMON: Can you understand the fear, Amber, after having done this story?

LYON: I can understand the fear, yes. People even told me, Don, they said, "Amber, are you crazy? How are you taking on that story? Because if you tick off one of the anons, they may come after you as well" and I felt like it was important for us to take on the story because it hasn't necessarily all sides of it have not been told and we were really able to with this special get inside the mentality of the majority of Anons to kind of explain to you what's happening.

LEMON: Yes, all right. Amber Lyon, thank you very much. We look forward to that.

LYON: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: You're very welcome. Don't forget to catch Amber's report tonight. It is part of a "CNN PRESENTS." It's coming up at the top of the hour, in just a few minutes here.

I'm Don Lemon at the CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta. See you back here at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.

"CNN PRESENTS" begins two and a half minutes from now.

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