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French Magazine's Controversial Cartoon; Justice Department To Release "Fast and Furious" Report; Chicago Strike Ends; Endeavour's Final Flight; Obama Leads in Polls; California Appeals Court Hears DNA Case; Secret Romney Video Raises Legal Questions

Aired September 19, 2012 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think it's quiet up to now. Obviously, the French government is worried about things and they're particularly worried about the idea that something might happen on Friday because they have closed down embassies, French embassies and French schools in 20 countries where they think there could be a problem as of Friday and they're not going to reopen again until Monday.

Now, of course, all during the day today, there's been a lot of official reaction. The Islamic community, for example, had a consult meeting and they complained before the press about how this was outrageous and should never have been allowed to happen.

There was a request, by the way, late last night, to block the publication of the magazine in question, but the government refused. The government's been saying that they condemn the magazine, as well, but they say, look, this is freedom of expression. And the magazine, itself has been reacting and they've been saying, look, we're just doing what we always do. We're outrageous, we know we're outrageous and this is what we do for a living.

I talked to one of the cartoonists for the magazine, one of 12 cartoonists. He's been under security protection, 24 hours a day, since last November when the magazine's offices were torched back then. He seemed even a little bit surprised at the kind of reaction that he saw. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

"LUZ," CHARLIE HEBDO CARTOONIST: There was a big fire of paranoia, French paranoia from the media that link us to -- that put us into this -- put us into the top of the news just right now. For the moment, it's just -- it is just a big deal built by the media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BITTERMANN: Just to give you an idea of how the magazine's sales have been affected, they're practically sold out of the various kiosks around town. It's not a very big magazine. They only print 75,000 copies each week and it's just about sold out as it is now.

Ashleigh? ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Jim, that was my next question. Was this an effort just to pump up the sales? Was this an effort to truly make a worldwide statement? How's it being consumed there among, say, the non-Muslims? Are the French people outraged, angry or nonplussed?

BITTERMANN: I think it's kind of divided. People are both -- come down both ways on this issue. We're out in the streets with the camera, talking to some people and that's exactly the king of thing we heard. Some people were for it, some people against it.

The thing that has to be understood is that this magazine, every single week, tries to be outrageous. It takes the news headlines and then satires them and, in this case, the news headlines were devoted to the outrage in the world over that film that was released that caused the torching of the embassy in Libya and the deaths in Libya.

So, this was an attempt to satirize those events and, of course, it's, once again, causing a kind of firestorm as far as reaction is concerned, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Jim Bittermann, live for us in Paris today. Thank you for that, Jim.

Elsewhere for the American ambassador to China, what should have really been a normal drive around the embassy in Beijing was far from a normal drive around the embassy. Take a look at the sky view.

You can see the Ambassador Gary Locke's car. It's surrounded by anti- Japanese protesters. They are anti-Japanese protesters and, yes, this is the American ambassador.

He was trying to enter the embassy compound. Now, here's where it gets a little strange. The U.S. embassy is quite close to the Japanese embassy where the demonstrators have been protesting Japan's claim to some of those islands that are also claimed by China. This has been a longstanding dispute.

Ambassador Locke was not hurt, but that car did sustain some minor damage with projectiles and people stomping on it. Again, Japanese -- protesting the Japanese going after the U.S. ambassador.

Also want to let you know about funeral services for a former Navy SEAL, a former Navy SEAL who died in the attack on the U.S. consulate in Libya. Those services are being held right now in Massachusetts and, just a short while ago, hundreds of relatives and friends and probably some members of the public, as well, were lining up at the funeral home just before going into a church for a service in his hometown of Winchester.

Doherty was working as a private security contractor at this consulate in Benghazi when he, along with the U.S. ambassador to Libya and two other Americans, were killed last week. Doherty was 42-years old and he served two combat tours during the Iraq war. He retired from the SEALs seven years ago.

Turning now to the controversial gun-trafficking operation known as "Fast and Furious," the one that's been dogging the Obama administration since last year. There is a long-awaited report that's due out by the Justice Department, the inspector general, in fact, and it may be released sometime today.

You will recall that that botched investigation was supposed to monitor the head honchos involved in illegal gunrunning to Mexico, but it's also being blamed for contributing to crimes, not stopping them, and it's also been linked to the killing of a U.S. border agent.

And the Republican-controlled House voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for failing to turn over documents that were related to the case. Holder did turn over thousands, but there were many that weren't turned over, as well.

Joe Johns is monitoring the developments in Washington. So, the inspector general's report is an autonomous report, it's an autonomous group, and they also, as I understand, Joe, have access to some of the legal documents that heretofore the public has not been able to see, right?

JOE JOHNS, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's our understanding. They have had access to some of the documents that not even Congress, perhaps, was able to get its hands on in its investigation, Ashleigh.

So, this could be a day that the air gets cleared over "Fast and Furious" because the question is whether the Justice Department inspector general, Michael Horowitz, will actually have some of the answers to the big questions surrounding the case.

Whose idea was it in the first place? Who knew about it and for how long? How high up did it go and why didn't somebody stop it?

So, this is an opportunity for an impartial broker, which is what the AIG is, to take a hard look at it and tell everybody what he thinks, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: So, Joe, you say it could be an opportunity for the air to be cleared, but could it not also be an opportunity to have revelations that just stir up a whole other political pot.

JOHNS: Well, absolutely. I mean, if the questions are not answered to the satisfaction of all of the individuals involved, you know, there have been people on Capitol Hill who have questioned how much the attorney general knew, when he knew it. You know, as you said, he was cited for contempt of Congress, the first attorney general ever cited for contempt of Congress.

So, in this political atmosphere, if you point fingers in one direction and don't point fingers in another direction, then immediately, your motivations could be called into question, but you know, the inspector general's office, as you know, Ashleigh, was set up to try to defeat that notion by making the office independent, making the budget independent and giving the inspector general the power to root out waste, fraud and abuse, as he sees it. So, we'll see how that works. BANFIELD: And there's another side of the coin that I wanted you to touch on and that is, A, if the report isn't satisfactory, that could open a can of political worms, but what if the report is even more satisfactory than the critics were expecting?

I mean, some people say fox over the henhouse, but this is really an autonomous group. They don't answer to the White House, so to speak. They don't even really answer to the Justice Department, so to speak, even though it's part of the Justice Department.

Is it possible, Joe, that we might actually see some information come out that's very damning to the Justice Department from the Justice Department?

JOHNS: Well, yeah, obviously, anything's possible because you don't know the kinds of cards the inspector general is holding and that's what makes all of this so interesting.

There's a lot of speculation, though, that so much has already been said about this on Capitol Hill and elsewhere that all we're going to get is sort of a regurgitation of all the facts and put together in one place so you can understand them a little bit better and perhaps just follow the trail.

Anybody's guess and, as early as today, we could find out the answer.

BANFIELD: It is a good thing you're a lawyer, my friend, because I have a feeling you're going to be reading ...

JOHNS: I have a law degree.

BANFIELD: ... "Fast and Furious," as soon as it comes out. Joe Johns, thank you very much. Appreciate that.

And, also, I want to remind you folks that, when we get that report and all of the full details, we're going to bring it to you, just as soon as it's released.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Three-hundred-fifty-thousand students are back in the classroom today after Chicago teachers voted to put their week-long protest on ice. Last night, in a landslide vote, the union delegates decided to call off the strike after coming to a contract agreement with the school board.

Not a done deal yet, though. The rank-and-file still have to vote on this in the coming weeks, but CNN's Kyung Lah is live in Chicago right now where she has been watching this and all the developments.

Before we get to the officials in all of this, the people who've had to really sweat this out, parents and kids -- and the teachers, as well, to some extent -- is there much of an outcry, a lot of public relief that's being aired in Chicago from parents who've had to deal with their kids at home for the last week?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, everyone you stop as they're dropping off their kids this morning who we've tried to talk to, they all say the same thing. Thank goodness, it's over.

Huge relief is a very good way to characterize the mood as kids started returning to the classroom across this entire city, 350,000 schoolchildren, elementary-age and high school-age, their parents dropping them off, getting back into the routine.

Here's what we heard from a parent and a teacher.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUANITA LOPEZ, TEACHER: It feels great. I'm very happy for them, for everyone concerned, yes. But it does feel -- it's a great feeling.

BIANCE SHEPHERD, PARENT: Extremely excited about them going back. They're excited. I know they were a little restless, but you know, it was for a good cause, I think.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: Now, the contract itself, the teachers say, hey, it's not a perfect deal, but it's something that they can live with, but, again, the mood that we're getting, overall -- I just was inside, talking to the principal. She said it is a lot like a first day of school. Kids are very excited to be back, as the teachers are, as well. Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: And just imagine if you're one of those teachers who happens to also be a parent. You're getting the double-whammy there, as well.

Just quickly, Kyung, I don't know if they've been releasing a lot of the details, the terms of the agreements. Who got what? Who lost what? How much do we know?

LAH: What we know is that both sides had to make compromises here and the reason why we are paying so much attention to the nitty-gritty is because the fight that was seen here in Chicago, how much teachers gave up, how much the city gave up was seen as almost a template for education battles across this entire country.

So, teachers did move on teacher evaluation. Student test scores will weigh in now on teacher evaluations. That eventually could impact layoffs. The school, though, quickly saying that this was also help with development of teachers. This is mainly focused at low- performing teachers.

The teacher raises, about 17.6 over four years and Rahm Emanuel, the mayor of the city, stressing that the big benefit for the schools and the kids, a longer school year.

BANFIELD: And we will see what the entire group of them feel when they go to vote in the next couple of weeks. Kyung, thanks very much. Appreciate it. I want to move to my other colleague, John Zarrella, who's been busy on a breaking story today, Space Shuttle Endeavour on its way to its retirement home.

These pictures, you just can't get enough of them, right? The piggy- backing of these remarkable aircraft? This began a final flight this morning, taking off from Kennedy Space Center, just an amazing trip that this craft is going to make, leaving Florida and heading for Los Angeles where it's going to end up on display at the California Science Center, but not before touching down in a few places along the way for some visits and some refuels.

John Zarrella, live now, from the Kennedy Space Center. This is exciting and it's not just for nerds. This is great stuff.

John, give me a bit of a feel for the significance of all of this because Endeavour was built in California in 1991, so this is a homecoming.

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it really is and you know Endeavour would never have been built at all had it not been for the tragedy here in 1986 when the Challenger exploded and then-President Reagan saying the space program would continue.

And they decided to go ahead and build the Space Shuttle Endeavour and it rolled off the assembly line in 1991 out in Palmdale, California. Its first flight in 1992 was a satellite rescue mission.

So, it has done Hubble missions, the first servicing mission, flown to the International Space Station, flew Barbara Morgan, who was the backup to Christa McAuliffe who died on Challenger, flew her on Endeavour, so really kind of completed the circle there.

You can see the chase plane there. The wheels are still not down, the gear not down, so still doing flyovers of the Houston area. We noticed that it appeared like it had just been over Galveston Island a few minutes ago and had passed over Ellington Field at one point, and that is right by the Johnson Space Center where it will land today and, overnight, Ashleigh, until tomorrow when it takes off again on the next leg of the flight.

So, spectacular opportunities all across the country for people to get a one last glimpse of an orbiter on the back of a 747. This is the last trip an orbiter will make on a 747 and the last trip one of these 747s will make. Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: So, just as you mentioned, a lot of opportunities for us all to be able to take part in this today. You mentioned, John, somewhere, the wheels should be coming down any moment, that landing expected to happen live, Johnson Space Center in Houston, and then what?

Take me right to the end and let me know why there was controversy in Los Angeles when it lands at LAX it's got one more trip it's got to make that has raised some hackles. ZARRELLA: Yeah. Yeah, it sure does. To try to put it in a nutshell, tomorrow, they will leave at daylight from Houston, they will fly out to Biggs Army Airfield in El Paso, refuel, head out to Dryden to the dry lake bed out there at Edwards Air Force Base where so many shuttles over the years landed when the weather was bad here at the Kennedy Space Center.

Then on Friday morning, they will take off for what really will be spectacular sights for so many of our viewers who can just go outside, watch it fly up to San Francisco, by the Golden Gate Bridge and by the Ames Research Facility, out over Sacramento, California, then down in fly-arounds all around the Los Angeles.

In fact, right about this time on Friday, it should be over the San Francisco area, we believe, at that time and then land in LAX about 11:00, Pacific time, on Friday and it will sit there for a couple of weeks, three weeks until they reconfigure it, get it ready to transport it.

Here's the controversy. They have to tow it 13 miles over the course of about a day-and-a-half to get it to the California Science Center and they had to cut down a couple of hundred trees along the way and they also have to move power lines and light fixtures and, of course, a lot of outrage among certain people out in California over the fact that so many trees had been cut down to allow it to move down the streets. But the California Science Center has promised it's going to plant two trees for every one tree that had to be cut down to make this happen.

But, again, the flyover here, now, and landing, shortly at Ellington Field in Houston near the Johnson Space Center. Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: Oh, you've got just the plum assignment today, my friend, and this is a sight to behold. Thanks, John Zarrella. Keep your eye on it for us, live, if you would.

I'm also going to let our viewers, John, know that they can continue to follow Endeavour's journey to its final home in California. You just need to log onto www.NASA.gov.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: "Issues 2012," all this week, CNN is going in-depth for you, exploring the issues that impact voters in the United States and, today, we take a look at President Obama and Governor Mitt Romney's plans for the future of the military.

Here's Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: How many troops and just what weapons are needed to defend the nation? President Obama and Governor Mitt Romney, each are making a different case.

Governor Romney has said that he wants to significantly add to our conventional forces.

MITT ROMNEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We must have a commitment not just to more ships and more aircraft, but also in my view to more members of our armed forces.

STARR: President Obama wants a smaller conventional force and $500 billion in Pentagon spending cuts over the next 10 years.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES And, so long as I'm commander-in-chief, we will sustain the strongest military the world has ever known.

STARR: Let's start with the Romney plan. The candidate says he favors a larger force of naval ships and aircraft, but has not said how he'd pay for it. Romney has also said that he wants to add 100,000 troops to the current force of 1.4 million.

Now, for a look at Obama's plan. As part of $500 billion in spending cuts, President Obama says he wants to get rid of older ships and delay buying new ones. He also proposes cutting the Army by some 66,000 and reducing the Marine Corps by another 20,000.

Obama envisions continuing use of small, special forces teams and unmanned drones, a signature weapon of the last decade. But Romney surrogate and former DOD comptroller Dov Zakheim says, not so fast.

DOV ZAKHEIM, ROMNEY SENIOR ADVISER: There no objection, no ideological objection at all, to having drones, unmanned aerial vehicles, unmanned subsurface vehicles, unmanned surface vehicles, all kinds of unmanned vehicles. This issue is, to what extent do you rely almost exclusively on drones and on special forces?

STARR: For President Obama, secret CIA drone attacks against militants in Pakistan and Yemen have had results without risking putting U.S. troops on the ground.

He told CNN's Jessica Yellin ...

OBAMA: It has to be a situation in which we can't capture the individual before they move forward on some sort of operational plot against the United States.

PETER SINGER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I don't think whether Obama or Romney wins, we're going to see this technology go away or see any greater minimized use of it because of their own approach. I think we've seen that President Obama is most definitely willing to utilize. These have actually been a signature part of his counterterrorism agenda and it would be very hard for Romney to roll that back, even if he wanted to.

STARR: Whether it's Romney or Obama in the Oval Office, the bigger problem with drones may be the international pushback from governments and human rights groups increasingly voicing their opposition.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Barbara, thank you for that. And for some in-depth coverage of the election, all you need to do is go to CNN.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Well, love them or hate them, motorcycles are certainly dangerous, but now throw in a muddy track and 40 other riders going at top speeds and I think it's safe to say it's really risky.

Imagine now being on that track and not being able to hear a thing. This is the reality for someone named Ashley Fiolek. She's not only a role model for the deaf community, but you could say she's a role model for all girls, too.

Here's CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta with her story.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: For Ashley Fiolek, motocross racing is in her blood.

ASHLEY FIOLEK, DEAF MOTOCROSS RACER (via translator): My dad used to race and he brought me to watch one race and I was 3-years old and I fell in love.

GUPTA: But there's something different about Ashley when she hits the course. She can't hear a thing. Ashley was born completely deaf. She speaks to us through her sign language translator and her friend, Natalie.

FIOLEK (via translator): I don't know how I would be riding, hearing. I grew up and I was born deaf.

GUPTA: In a sport that prides itself on making noise and where hearing your opponents coming can mean the difference of winning and losing, Ashley stands alone.

FIOLEK (via translator): But she really has to hold my lines when I'm riding because it's really hard to see if somebody is coming up behind me.

GUPTA: And she uses the vibrations of the engine to make sure she is in the right gear. In this race, Ashleigh, is the only deaf rider to ever compete in motocross and is trying for her fourth championship title.

FIOLEK (via translator): I feel really good. I hit every jump and the big double. I hope I can win and be the champion.

GUPTA: And she achieved just that, beating out her closest rival for the national championship. But for Ashley, it is about more than just winning.

FIOLEK (via translator): Well, it is really cool to be a role model for the deaf community, and it is a cool feeling to have people look up to you.

GUPTA: And from Natalie, her friend's impact is obvious as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FRIEND OF ASHLEY: She is very important to women's motocross and as an idol for all of the young girls, whether she is deaf or not. She is like a smaller than I am and she can ride a dirt bike like that is crazy.

GUPTA: Proof that anything is possible.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: 48 days before Election Day, and President Obama still holding a lead in the national polls.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer joining me live with that, as well as a number we don't hear a lot, the weight of the candidate. We will get to that in a moment.

First, Wolf, let's start with the horse race and the latest numbers. A poll from NBC and the "Wall Street Journal" is showing that the President has a five-point edge among the so-called likely voters. But we also have what we call the poll of polls, averaging eight nationwide nonpartisan surveys done after the conventions, and it shows a three-point edge for the Obama/Biden ticket. We're only 45 days out now, Wolf, but does something major have to happen to push the numbers around or can anything really move the numbers in such a short amount of time?

WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": The answer is those three presidential debates and one vice presidential debate. Those could certainly have an impact if there is a major gaffe by one of the two candidates or one of the vice presidential candidates. That might have an impact moving the numbers up or down obviously. Obviously, the debates are very, very important. Money spent over the last 47 or 48 day. I think that the Republicans will have more money, so that is going to be to their advantage.

If you look at the internal numbers in these polls, it shows that their are encouraging for Obama, at least right now in terms of right track, wrong track, and higher numbers in the right track than a month or two for the President. And as far as handling the economy, right now, Obama is, in the new NBC poll, right this with Romney on who would better handle the economy, that is encouraging for Obama, because, in the past, Romney has done better in those numbers. Right now the numbers look pretty good for Obama, but it is a long way to go. Anything can still happen.

BANFIELD: And these polls were taken before the latest political hot- button issue arose of the surreptitious video taken of Governor Romney at a private event talking about the 47 percent of Americans who he says are in the column for President Obama. He actually referred to that. President Obama showed up on " "Late Night with David Letterman" and actually answered to this. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: One of the things I have learned as president is you represent the entire country. And when I meet Republicans as I'm traveling around the country, they are hardworking family people who care deeply about this country. And my expectation is that if you want to be president, you have to work for everybody and not just for some.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: You know, Wolf, Vice President Biden really skirted the issue and said, I will let the tape speak for itself, and he did not weigh in on it. Did you feel like this was President Obama getting tough, not getting tough enough, leaving it for the super PACs?

BLITZER: Well, what is clear is that he came across very smooth and presidential with Letterman last night and at the top of the game. Really explained to me why he likes to go on Letterman and some of the other shows, because he comes across genuine and presidential. He does not have to go after Romney directly and brutally. He has others who are going to do that, other surrogates in his campaign who support him. He can take the high road, which is probably pretty smart at this stage, especially when you are up in the polls. He does not have to get down into the fight directly with Romney.

And as I said, he is going to have three debates in which he can show his stuff. Romney is a good debater as well, so I am looking forward to those.

BANFIELD: And the campaign has come out with ads showing people outraged by the surrepetious video. Certainly, the surrogates and the campaign are not letting that one go.

BLITZER: But I want to get to the lighter side, and there's a reason that I want to get to the lighter side. We saw Mitt Romney showing on the old "Kelly and Regis" show, now called "Kelly and Michael." And now we've seen President Obama on Letterman. And he did get to the light topic, too. I want to play as clip of it now and ask something serious about. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": You look great.

OBAMA: I feel good.

LETTERMAN: How much do you weigh? OBAMA: You know --

(LAUGHTER)

-- about 180.

LETTERMAN: One-eighty looks good on you.

OBAMA: Thank you.

LETTERMAN: Because that's just about where I am, and I don't look so good at 180.

OBAMA: You look sharp.

LETTERMAN: You haven't seen me naked.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: We are going to keep it that way.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I loved that. I loved it. I want to ask you a serious question about funny stuff.

BLITZER: Yes.

BANFIELD: Are these appearances on the light-hearted shows with the light-hearted folks as important as some of the serious stuff out in the campaign, because a lot of people watch late night TV who don't watch news.

BLITZER: Especially for the undecided. And remember, you know, we are talking about maybe 8 percent or out there, not nationally in those battleground states because New York will go Democratic, California is going to go Democratic, and Texas will go Republican. We are talking about a few battleground states where the undecideds will make the final decisions. And one of things -- it's obvious they want substance and all of that, but they want somebody that they like and feel comfortable with. When Romney appears on one of the shows or Obama appears on one of the shows, they almost always come across smooth and nice and friendly, and that is what people want to see and that's why they are doing it.

Remember, the other day, I think it was Michele Bachmann who was criticizing President Obama, Ashleigh, for saying that Obama can go to New York -- he can go to New York and has time for Letterman, but he does not have time for Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel. In the scheme of things, who is going to get you more votes? A meeting that could be tense with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu or go on Letterman and come across as well as he did last night? I think that the answer is clear. BANFIELD: We have so much news. You're making news. The little box on the right-hand side of the screen right now is making news as well. Wolf, I want to draw your attention, Wolf, and the viewers' attention to the monitor as well.

This is Johnson Space Centers. This is the touchdown of the space shuttle Endeavour. It's been flying this morning from Florida from Kennedy Space Center, making a stop for refueling and for a little "hi, how are you," as it goes to the final resting place in Los Angeles. This is a multi-day trip and the vistas are spectacular.

We will take a break and talk more on the other side.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Okay. I want to get personal for a minute, if you'll allow me. I want to get legal and controversial, all wrapped up in one, because in California today, a federal appeals court is hearing some arguments for and against a law in that state. It is a law that requires California police to take DNA samples from anybody they arrest on suspicion of a felony. Let me repeat that. Anyone they arrest -- not convicted, not charged, just arrest.

You can't get more personal than this, folks, because the samples are taken like this. A simple mouth swab -- open up -- and the findings are kept in a database, and matched against unsolved crimes where genetic evidence might actually exist. You get a match, you might have yourself a case. And often those cold cases are solved. Dangerous criminals are found, and put away, sometimes decades after the actual crime.

But a lot of those samples come from people who never end up charged with any crime at all. Remember, we are innocent until proven guilty. Anything not sitting right with you at this point?

Well, it is a good debate. The DNA of those people, who are swabbed, remains in government custody forever. And my next guest falls smack dab into that category.

Here name is Lily Haskell and she is a plaintiff in a challenge that's being spearheaded by the American Civil Liberties Union. She joins me now live from San Francisco.

Lily, thank you for being with me.

LILY HASKELL, PLAINTIFF: Thanks, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I first want to ask you -- it's good of you to join me. I want to ask you, you swept up in a protest and you were out for a simple protest. You got swept up and brought in and, all of a sudden, you were asked, open up and let me swab your mouth. Take it from there. What happened and did you have a choice in this?

HASKELL: That is correct, Ashleigh. I was arrested at anti-war demonstration in 2009. And when I was arrested I was really surprised, I did not know about the law, even though I had voted against it, but I didn't know that it went into effect. And so they took me out of the cell and they said we are here to collect your DNA, and I was shocked. I said, I would not like to have my DNA taken and I believe that I have the right to refuse to have my DNA taken. And when I refused, they said, okay, you will be charged with another misdemeanor, which will land you two more nights in jail. And at that point, I was nervous and confused about what was going on. I did not want to spend two more nights in jail. I felt strong armed, that I had to give my DNA.

BANFIELD: Let me ask you this. And you are saying that you voted against the proposition, and voted against this law, but the majority of those in your state voted for it. Now it is under challenge. It is a technical challenge and I will get to that later with our legal expert. But I think that there is a strong argument to be made about all of the good that this does. I know it is not nice to have a Q-tip put in your mouth, but can you understand all of these cold cases solved and all of these wrongful constrictions that can be overturned?

HASKELL: Right. I mean, DNA can be a powerful tool. there is a lot of technological advances and a lot can be used, but my belief is that if you have strong enough evidence to think that I was at a crime scene to think that I might be a suspect, then subpoena that DNA and ask me for that, and I will be forced by the court to give it. But there is no reason to collect the DNA for people who are caught up on the arrests, many of us not ultimately charged for the crimes.

BANFIELD: Well, I want to put up the stats for the DNA hits in California. DNA hits, meaning successful matches of those swabs that are collected, with actual arrests and possible convictions, you know, imprisonments of criminals. In 2008, they had 183 of these hits per month. In 2009, it went up to 280 per month. And in 2010, it went up to 360 hits per month. And now there is about 25 states we are at, right now across the union that have enacting several laws in connection to the proposition law in California.

The Democratic governor of your state, Jerry Brown, who you would not expect to be in support of this, is full-heartedly and full-throatedly in support of this.

Let me play for you what he said, likening it to just as simple as fingerprinting. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN, (D) CALIFORNIA: DNA is the fingerprint of the 21st century. When you are arrested, you get your mug shot and fingerprint taken of you and that's kept. The only difference with DNA, it is more accurate. And it's linking, in very important cases, perpetrators of horrible crimes with the crime itself. So this is really important stuff. And I'm going to defend it to -- with every power I have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Lily, is there any way that you don't see that this is similar to fingerprinting? HASKELL: This is not similar to fingerprinting. The fingerprint is the tip of my finger. DNA is a genetic print of my own genetic makeup. It's my own background, and it contains a lot more about who I am than the tip of my finger. And I welcome anybody to take my fingerprint if it is necessary, and only when it is necessary. However, taking my DNA is an invasion of my privacy and the government has no right to my genetic material.

BANFIELD: Lily Haskell, good of you to get up early to talk to us about this extraordinary constitutional issue. Thanks so much. We will look forward to hearing how you feel about the outcome.

HASKELL: Thanks, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Lily Haskell, joining us from San Francisco.

The legal aspects continue with our experts in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: I always like to surround myself with people who are way smarter than I am, and Christine Grillo one of those people. She is a prosecutor in Brooklyn, and she often can answer all the questions I simply can't.

Lily Haskell just told us how invasive this was as an innocent person swept up in an anti-war rally, never charged, and, yet, swabbed and her genetic makeup is forever in the custody of the federal government. I know, as a prosecutor, this is great for you, but how is it great for me, as a private citizen, to know this can happen?

CHRISTINE GRILLO, PROSECUTOR, BROOKLYN, NEW YORK: I don't think it's any more invasive than your fingerprints. I truly don't. These are the fingerprints of this century, as the governor said very clearly. In fact, when we were proving cases now, and we have fingerprint evidence, sometimes our jurors want more than that. They want to know what about the DNA, and some of our crimes we can't get fingerprints, but if -- if we had DNA evidence, we can certainly have a better conviction and more concise conviction, a more positive conviction.

BANFIELD: The molecular smoking gun is a demand that's made by so many jurors, and it's great that we have these crime-fighting tools, but it's also tough that the demands are made of you to provide them. At the same time, I have a Fourth Amendment right to -- to guard against unlawful search and seizure. And when are you swabbing up my mouth and I'm not convicted or even charged with anything, how is that not an unlawful search of my mouth?

GRILLO: How is it not an unlawful search of your fingertips?

BANFIELD: It has my genetic code, not just my print.

(CROSSTALK)

GRILLO: Your print itself, your print. Two people can't have the same fingerprints. It is the same, but it is just brought up to this century and into the tools that we have now. It is better to have a DNA. There are less mistakes made with DNA than there are with fingerprints.

BANFIELD: It's just gradations of the same personal invasion? You're saying that a fingerprint should be the same unlawful search and seizure? We should do away with those as well and the argument is to be made that the DNA swabbing of the mouth is unfair?

GRILLO: Do away with the fingerprints? Yes. How could we do that? How could we reconcile that argument that the fingerprints are allowed and the mouth swab is not?

BANFIELD: You saw those graphics that I put up earlier of the kinds of crimes. I mean, we're finding murders and rapists from 30 years ago, and we are putting them in prison because of this.

GRILLO: And we are setting those free with finding the stronger evidence of DNA.

BANFIELD: The exoneration.

GRILLO: Setting people free.

BANFIELD: It's a great argument to have.

Christine Grillo, don't go anywhere, because I have other questions for you.

GRILLO: Okay.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: A challenge, in fact, to the DNA law in Maryland may end up actually at the Supreme Court. And a ruling there could settle this issue for everyone. Stay tuned. We're back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Mitt Romney caught on tape, a secret recording, and it's now all over the headlines and all over the press. Romney getting slammed by a lot of people for his comment about the so-called 47 percent of Americans he says are entitled and they're going to vote for Obama.

But here's the deal. This was recorded secretly. You can tell by the position of the camera -- it's either a cell phone or a hidden camera -- and it was a private fundraiser in Florida. And this is important. Why? Because Florida has some strict laws about what you are and are not allowed to record when it comes to audio.

This record is raising a lot of questions, legal questions, about privacy and consent, which is why prosecutor Christine Grillo is back with me now.

Florida has a law about two-party consent. Two people who are in that audio conversation have to agree to that conversation. GRILLO: Yes.

BANFIELD: Does this look like it could be a two-party consent situation?

GRILLO: Somebody else had to have known or could have known that he was -- that he was taping it. But the issue is really more about how much privacy -- expectation of privacy did Romney think he truly had when he is speaking to a room full of people.

BANFIELD: You don't think it's a two-party issue? The cameraperson is one party, and who knows if there was a second party in cahoots with that group. You say it's more of a privacy issue where Romney was expecting a private event to be private in a public setting.

GRILLO: Right.

BANFIELD: Selling tickets.

GRILLO: Right. That's an expectation that I don't believe he is entitled to. And the law is not going to go after somebody in that situation. Compare it to the Broadway show that you walk in. That's a private showing where you buy a ticket for --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Yes or no, not likely to see any charges come out of this?

GRILLO: I don't think so.

BANFIELD: Christine Grillo, it's always good to see you.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Will you come back?

GRILLO: Yes. Absolutely.

BANFIELD: I knew she would say so. I'm so glad. Thanks so much.

That's all the time we have. Thank you for being with us on this program. Stay tuned right now for NEWSROOM INTERNATIONAL.