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Space Shuttle Endeavour's Last Flight; Pro-Democracy Protesters Score a Victory in Libya; Discussion about Muslims and Islam
Aired September 22, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. The stories you are talking about in just moment. But first, I'm going to get you up to speed on the day's headlines.
Pro-democracy protesters scored a victory in Libya tonight. Two Islamist militia groups are disbanding and shutting down bases in eastern Libya in response to protesters' demand. In Benghazi, counter protesters are trying to reclaim the city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The pro-democracy demonstrators began taking the situation into their own hands and storming various headquarters of known extremist militias in the city of Benghazi.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, counter protesters were met by some resistance. Four people were killed and dozens injured on Friday night.
The wife of a missing retired FBI agent hopes to meet with the president of Iran to plea for her husband's safe return. Robert Levinson disappeared on an island off Iran's coast in 2007. Now billboards with Levinson's are up in New You in hopes Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, will see them when he attends the U.N. assembly next week. Levinson was last seen in a video two years ago pleading with the U.S. government to gain his release.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT LEVINSON, AMERICAN HOSTAGE: Thirty-three years of service to the United States deserves something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Iran's president has repeatedly turned down meeting requests from Levinson's wife.
At least 220 people were killed today in Syria with government forces shelling Aleppo and the Damascus suburbs. This comes as leaders of a rebel priest Syrian army are moving into territories, its fighters have seized. The group has many ex-soldiers who defected from Syria's army to fight the regime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not fighting to create democratic or Republican jobs. I'm fighting to create American jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: President Obama campaigned in Wisconsin for the first time in more than 200 days. Wisconsin may be a surprise battleground state. Months ago, the Obama can't believe the state's 10 electoral votes were safely in their corner. Then, Wisconsin congressman Paul Ryan was tapped as Mitt Romney's running mate.
Here's what else we're working on for you on CNN Saturday night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Take the Lord's name in vain. Thou shall not, right?
If Jesus jokes are fair game, why in a free country is the prophet Muhammad beyond reproach?
And another hands off topic, religion. Not the peaceful notion of it, but the reality of why it's so often turns deadly. A Christian, a Muslim and a Jew walk into our studio for a conversation that is no joke.
Plus,
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it's a --
LEMON: Romney's rough week. Secret tapes, disparaging words, seeking polls and pesky taxes. Even the Mrs. Weighed in.
ANN ROMNEY, MITT ROMNEY'S WIFE: This is hard. You want to try it.
LEMON: What Republicans are really saying about Mitt Romney. And --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a fact, my friend.
LEMON: Jesse "the body ".
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about if you run with me?
LEMON: Ponder a White House run. Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But first, we are going to start with this.
Tonight a discussion about the prophet Muhammad, a discussion that will most likely make a lot of you very uncomfortable. But why should it? I'm here in the United States which prides itself on freedom, especially the freedom of expression. Yet, through the technology of television, people around the world can see this including radical Islamists who in the past few days attacked and murdered people all in the name of prophet Muhammad.
And to be clear, our motive here is to educate and to understand, not to incite or instigate. That said, one of the big stories this week is about this. It is the new iphone. On this thing you can take pictures and shoot videos and then when are you done, there are buttons that allow you to tweet it, you can facebook it or send it right to you tube for the entire world to see.
Anyone anywhere at any second is capable of broadcasting something insulting. So my point is that can you not stop the march of time. So as I watched the violence overseas, I wondered in what century are these protesters living? And then I read William Saletan's article on slate.com. It is called internet videos will insult your religion. Ignore them and get over it.
Welcome, William. Thanks for joining us. It's not just democracy or the U.S. it's technology. And no matter your religious beliefs, William, you cannot stop progress.
WILLIAM SALETAN, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, SLATE.COM: No. And Don, you just made the point. That you don't require a network anymore to broadcast hateful speech around the world. All you need is a video camera, an Internet connection. Literally two people were responsible for creating and disseminating this movie on the internet that has enflamed the Muslim world.
LEMON: You write that filmmaker wanted to prove that Islam is a violent religion and the protesters played right into his scripts, especially since most of them, William, had never even seen the video. They are being manipulated in more ways than one here.
SALETAN: Yes. The manipulators are on both sides, OK? We have our crazies over in this country who want to enflame passions over in the Muslim world and get people angry. And then, we have radical cleric over in the Muslim world who are happy to collaborate in this with each side hating the other and trying to insight their populations against each other.
LEMON: So, the next time it will be something else, another video, another cartoon or what have you. William, I want you to listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religion beliefs of others.
HILLARY CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: Let me state very clearly and I hope it is obvious that the United States government had absolutely nothing to do with this video.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So that is part of a PSA, the U.S. government spent $70,000 of ad's time to run on TV in Pakistan. Not once did they mention free speech. So here is a question by being so sensitive and not telling some of these people, as you say just to get over it. Has the U.S. become enablers prolonging the inevitable that that this handful of protesters or however many they are, they are ultimately fighting a losing battle?
SALETAN: I wouldn't be so hard on the administration. They may not have used the word free speech, but they're trying to convey something very complicated.
Look, we are at the beginning of a big, long, international conversation with the Muslim world. And what we are trying to convey is just because we allow something to be broadcast, to be put on the internet in this country does not mean the government or American people support it. And that's a very complicated idea that we're trying to convey people who live in countries where that kind of thing is not allowed.
LEMON: You also write to the protesters. You said that hatred and bloodshed will go on until you stop taking the bait, mockery of your prophet on the computer with an Internet address, somewhere in the world can no longer be your master nor can the puppet clerics who tell you to respond with violence. So in writing that, William, in America, we take the words and interpret them as tough love. But, do you worry that what you have written will insight Islamists to do more violence?
SALETAN: No, no. And in fact, quite the opposite. I mean, the point that I'm simply making is that since we can't stop it, we can't stop somebody with an iphone from making a video, we can't stop someone with an Internet connection from disseminating it. The place where we can stop this for the people who are the targets of this, who they are trying to offend with the anti-Muslim stuff to ignore it. Simply ignore it. Nobody came to watch this movie when put in the theater in the United States. Nobody. Why can't the Muslim world treat it the same way?
LEMON: William Saletan. Thank you very much. Very interesting article. And we appreciate you joining us.
SALETAN: Thank you.
LEMON: All right. So, the name Jesus doesn't strike fear in Americans. Yet, the mention of another prophet's name certainly can. Why should we as Americans be afraid of how we reference the prophet Muhammad? Next, we're going to ask a Muslim.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The most violent of the anti-American protests today was Bangladesh where several people were arrested. The biggest crowds though were in Lebanon where Hezbollah supporters numbered in the thousands. The man who allegedly sparked it all, this filmmaker, Nakoula Besseley Nakoula, is in hiding. Why? Well, a Pakistani leader put a $100,000 bounty on his head specifically encouraging Al Qaeda and the Taliban or anyone who can to kill the filmmaker. Again, all this because of the prophet Muhammad or his depiction, at least, the mere mention of him can insight violence, destruction, and death. But why?
Haroon Moghul is a fellow at the institute for social policy and understanding, my question to you first and foremost, as a country that prides itself on freedom of speech and freedom of expression, why is Muhammad off-limits to people here in America?
HAROON MOGHUL, FELLOW, INSTITUTE FOR SOCIAL AND UNDERSTANDING: I don't think Muhammad is off-limits. I think part of the problem is we don't know much about who he is. I think the people who often speak about Islam and behalf of Islam, people press themselves as experts generally are not familiar with Islam. And aren't able to communicate who Muhammad is to Muslims and what he means to Muslims.
So, I think, the problem really is that we just don't have a conversation about Islam that we deserve. And so, what happens you is get extremist voices from both sides filling in the gaps, leaving the vast majority of Muslims and Americans in the dark.
LEMON: But no matter how civilized the conversation we have here tonight or on television, it won't stop what happened. It's not stopped being the protests.
MOGHUL: I think we have to be fair when we look at the protests and what's happening. I mean, the overwhelming majority of Muslims from the grassroots to Muslim leaders and religious leaders and political leaders have condemned the violence and condemn the protests. Even if you look at the people who are protesting and even smaller percentage are protesting violently. And while there are definitely people with extremist offense were pushing those protest, I don't think the protests are really about the prophet Muhammad. I think they have a lot more to do with local politics, with American foreign policy and with feelings of humiliation and being basically not treated with dignity, not treated as part of society as being able to politically participate.
So there are a lot of feelings of marginalization and alienation. And I think this movie is more of an excuse for people to come to the streets and vent those feelings and these kinds of gestures are pushed by extremist voices and political leaders in order to push their own cause forward.
LEMON: I hear what you're saying. But as most of us look at it around the world and especially the western, in western culture, we don't see many people coming forward who are maybe secular Muslims or people who are more in the middle for a lack of better term. Not radical Islamists who come forward to denounce these sorts of activities. We see the people who are out on the streets. And we hear the words that you're saying that it's a handful. It's not a lot of people. But I don't think most people believe it because we don't see the other side. We don't see a counter weight that is as big or that can counter that -- those protesters.
MOGHUL: Well, I think the counter way, as their words, is not paying attention. We tend to show things that hid to a narrative of what we expect and what's some world to be. Pakistan is a country of 190 million people. Ten or 20,000 people on the street is not a huge number of people. At the same time, there have been massive protests in Benghazi in Libya, 30, 40,000 people which is a huge percentage of the population of a tiny country like Libya and they are even coming out protesting against the killing against ambassador Stevens. They are in protesting against extremism, even protesting against radicalism. Every major religious leader across the Muslim world pretty much across the board is condemned violent protests as condemned the calls for extreme action and radicalism. It's just a question of what we're paying attention to. And we tend to focus on the things that produce the best images on TV.
LEMON: I want to read something from the "New York Times" in this article, "the New York Times" columnist Roger Cohen writes this. He says, The Muslim world -- the Muslim world cannot visit both ways. They cannot place Islam at the center of political light and in extreme cases political violence while at the same time declaring that the religion is off-limits to contestation and ridicule.
Is there a belief in the Muslim world that you can't have -- can you have it both ways? That the prophet Muhammad or cannot in any way be depicted at all? Is it a sense that the Muslim world wants it both ways?
MOGHUL: I don't think Roger Cohen is being fair and I don't think he is being accurate. Prophet Muhammad is a deeply contested figure. I mean, most of the major divisions in Islam today between (INAUDIBLE), for example, have to do with interpreting Prophet Muhammad's legacy.
I think the difference here is that the caricatures that are being made are bluntly offensive. It's not about meaningful criticism and debate. It is about mockery and humiliation. And for a small percentage of Muslims and I have to underline that a very small percentage ,that kind of caricature and mockery is not inseparable from the kind of treatment their countries and societies have received.
So, for Egyptians who are storming the U.S. embassy, is it really about the prophet Muhammad or is it about what they perceive American foreign policy to be? I think those are questions that we haven't really separated out in our heads. I do agree that there needs to be more of a conversation about religion that needs to be more an honest conversation. But I think that as you see democracy spreading across the Muslim world, we will see that happen. And maybe this is actually the first stages of that process happening.
LEMON: So, as a Muslim, do you think the prophet Muhammad should be depicted in any way? Is it OK to depict him to make a character tour of him or to depict him in any way?
MOGHUL: I mean, honestly, I believe in freedom of speech. So, as long as someone is not in sighting violence directly, it's fair game. People should be able to make the points they want to make and make the argument they want to make.
From a religious point of view and a moral point of view, Muslims find negative depictions or religious figures and sacred figures like Jesus, John the Baptist, Muhammad to be offensive. But I find it offensive. That doesn't mean I'm going to go out into the streets or write a letter to the editor. I'm mature enough to say you have the point of views. I have a point of view. We can agree to disagree. And I think based on what is happening across the Muslim world, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not concerned enough to get on to the streets whether to protest peacefully or among even smaller minority pushing things violently. I think we're looking at a radical fringe, unfortunately.
LEMON: Do you think most Muslims worldwide think it's OK to depict the prophet Muhammad?
MOGHUL: I don't think they agree with the ability to depict him. But at the same time there are differences within Islam. A lot of Shia Muslims for example, don't have the same taboo around depicting the prophet Muhammad and images. There are also movies that are made about the prophet's life and sacred figures and Islamic thought. I think is a lot more to do with political grievances, with anger, with democratization, with opening up a political process for the first time. And really these are societies where people are beginning to see their chance to really influence society. So it's going to be messy along the way. This is unfortunately in the one of the bumps along the road. It's a more democratic and more sophisticated societies.
LEMON: Great conversation. Haroon Moghul. Thank you very much.
MOGHUL: Thank you.
LEMON: Yes.
We have heard from the Muslim. You heard him there. Next, it's the Christian and the Jew's turn.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: I appreciate all your comments @donlemoncnn on twitter. And you guys are really weighing in on this. Thank you so much.
So let's continue to talk here. Some Muslims believe there should not be any depictions of the prophet Muhammad, period, end of story, not up for discussion. However, the way a country of Christians use Jesus on film is a bit different.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said what.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A little parody on the history of the world by Mel Brooks. But, a clip highlighting a much bigger discussion. How it is that images of Jesus can be made into parodies but not the prophet Muhammad?
Bishop Jim Swilley is here in studio with me at Atlanta and then rabbi ShmuleyBoteach. We just know him as rabbi Shmuley.
First you to, rabbi. Thanks to both of you, by the way, for joining us. Not everyone loves to see Jesus parodied. But, it is certainly more accepted than Muhammad. Why is that?
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, KOSHER JESUS: Is that question to me?
LEMON: Yes, rabbi.
BOTEACH: Oh, I'm sorry. Well, look, Muslims need to understand and in any free and open society, everything is going to be fair game. And what they really need to understand is that no one can insult Islam except Muslims themselves. In other words, it is the behavior on part of the religious people who profess a certain faith that will determine how that faith is depicted. If a catholic priest is found doing something illegitimate with the child, he has graced the faith. If a rabbi does something that is wrong within Judaism, then, he has malign his faith.
Those who go out and burn embassies and do so in the name of prove Prophet Muhammad, they are the blasphemers, not some idiot with a camera would b0list actors out of Hollywood is uploading a clip to you tube.
So, it is we who have to be judge by how we depict our faith through our actions. And we really need to tell our Islamic brothers and sisters forthrightly and candidly and lovingly because I respect Islam, that you run the risk of allowing the world to see your religion as violence by not coming out much more forcefully and condemning this violence.
LEMON: Yes. And that's part of our discussion that we had this week as we were putting the show together. And that I had earlier with Mr. Moghul and we'll have later on. And before I let you respond, bishop, I want to play this. This week the idea came up that Jesus may have had a wife and it didn't take long for the late night shows to go to town and have a little fun it with. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wouldn't than something if Jesus was married? He can turn water wine but he can't take out the garbage. Maybe Jesus wasn't his name. Maybe that what his wife would yell every time he came home late and it stuck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well now Jesus, sounds like maybe I got you at a bad time. So, I will check with you real soon, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the tigers, man! It's 1 1/2.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. OK. Thank you. We'll do, Jesus.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus was married. That is some pure uncut sitcom bait. Can you raise the dead but heaven help him when he forgets to put down the toilet seat. Yes, Kevin James is Jesus in "the King of Kings."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: See, so rabbi, to your point, this is all over the networks. But there have been no uprising, no burning of effigies of Kimmel, Letterman or Stewart. Are we just looking at profoundly different cultures or is there something to be head about letting words just be words, bishop, as the rabbi said?
BISHOP JIM SWILLEY, PASTOR, CHURCH IN THE NOW: Well, when I see those, I can't help but laugh because those guys are hysterically funny. When I watch any portrayal of Jesus from anything, you know, my boys like "South Park" and "Family Guy," the guys are really even R rated. But they have Jesus parodies on.
LEMON: But to the rabbi's point. If you laugh at it, then you laugh at it. You don't have to be offended.
SWILLEY: Right. Well, for me personally, they are not really talking about the Jesus that I know. In my mind, they are skewering an image that people have about Jesus that really is attacking organized religion much more than it is the actual Jesus.
LEMON: You are offended by that at all?
SWILLEY: No. Because I know who Jesus is. And like even if settings wherein that is very ecumenical, I know that Christians don't like when you are sort inform that setting where you say oh, the faiths are accepted and embraced because there is a great feeling among evangelicals that anybody that is not a Christian is -- they're not going to heaven, they're going to hell.
My feeling is that in all due respect, Jesus is a big boy. I mean, you know, you bring him to the party. He can take care of himself. If I really do believe he is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords, then someone doing Mel Brooks parody or whatever, it's a nonissue.
LEMON: It is a nonissue. But again, as I was saying, you can't stop the march of time. Because what you say upload this on to anything and if you want to live in a free and democratic society, that's part of living in a free and democratic society.
SWILLEY: Absolutely.
LEMON: But then again, we're looking at it in a western way.
SWILLEY: Because when you deal with Islam, you are talking about national identity. You are not just talking about religion. You are talking about this is what you call a Muslim country. So, it's the same things that like someone insulting your mother or insulting your family or your school or whatever, except that when it comes to religion, you are dealing with the mysteries of God.
LEMON: Rabbi, you heard the jokes. We laughed at them. There were no burn effigy. Nobody issued a plot or anything for any of those guys. So then, what gives here?
BOTEACH: Yes, the book of Mormon playing a couple blocks where I am sitting right now. That is odderly blasamist to Mormons and they are not at the barricade
Look, there are two very important points. A first of all, a lot of our Arab brothers and sisters are living in countries where forget about criticizing the prophet Muhammad, if they spoke out against his own leader, they will be put on jail or they might be punish. Try speaking out in Saudi Arabia against King Abdullah or even in Jordan. Certainly in Syria where they're fighting for their lives. So there is a suppression of speed o speech.
But, one of the lessons I feel that the world can learn from Judaism specifically, is that in the Hebrew bible upon which all religions, Christianity and Islam built, there are no perfect people. No one is infallible. Everybody is subject to criticism. And Muslims are insistent that their religion is a pure monotheism that Muhammad is not daddy. Unlike Jesus, he has not worship. So why can't his humanity be promoted and that means looking at him in a more human post.
And feel the same thing is true these days, even of Christians. I have long argued, and I wrote a book called "Kosher Jesus" that says Christians would be perhaps slightly less judgmental of the great cultural wars in America, abortion, gay marriage. If they look at the humanity if Jesus a little bit more as suppose to simply his daddy. Every person in the Hebrew bible is fallible. Every person in the Hebrew bible makes mistakes. God is critical of them. God almighty. Moses, our greatest prophet can't do what every Jew today can do, go into the promise land because he sinned.
So we reached the stage where we are dismissing the humanity of religion because we can't humanize the people who brought those religions into existence. And Don, it's a scary time. Because religion is becoming violent, judgmental. It's scary.
And I'm especially telling the world's 1.5 billion Muslims who are my brothers and sisters that we Jews have a debt of gratitude to Muslims taking us in from catholic's fame in 1492 when we were kicked out.
Catholic Portugal 1498. How did it come to this that Muslim siege Jews as their enemy, or Israel is their enemy or America is their enemy. There is no country on earth that does more for the world's Muslims than the United States. Our soldiers defend Islamic women from being beaten in the streets of Afghanistan and they die doing that. And we liberated 27 Muslims --
LEMON: Rabbi, you have to wrap it up. Yes.
Thank you. Thank you. I know you're very passionate about it. And we appreciate it. We appreciate it. Unfortunately though, we only have an hour for the show.
Thank you. We will have both of you back rabbi Shmuley, bishop Swilley. We appreciate it.
It is almost bottom of the hour, just in a couple of seconds.
We are going to get up to speed on the other headlines and then continue on with our conversation here.
Pro-democracy protesters scored a victory in Libya tonight. Two Islamist militia groups are disbanding and shutting down bases in eastern Libya in response to protesters demands. And Benghazi, counter protesters are trying to reclaim the city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAMON: These pro-democracy demonstrators began taking the situation into their own hands and storming various headquarters of known extremist militias in the city of Benghazi.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Counter protesters were met by some resistance. Four people were killed and dozens injured. That was on Friday night.
At least 220 people were killed today in Syria with government forces shelling Aleppo and he Damascus suburb. This comes as the leaders and rebel pre-Syrian army are moving into territories its fighters have sized. The group has many ex-soldiers who defected from the army to fight the regime.
Straight ahead here tonight --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: I think it's a --
LEMON: Romney's rough week. Secret tapes, disparaging words, and pesky taxes. Even the Mrs. Weighed in. ANN ROMNEY, MITT ROMNEY'S WIFE: This is hard. You want to try it?
LEMON: What Republicans are really saying about Mitt Romney.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK. Well, Mitt Romney is taking heat not just from Democrats and President Obama. He is getting criticism from Republicans, too.
Conservative columnist Peggy Noonan called the Mitt Romney campaign a rolling calamity in her column this week. Bill Kristol had said some things as well. Two GOP heavy weight voicing with a lot of Republicans might be thinking but are not willing to say out loud.
We know one who is willing and more. Ana Navarro is here. She is a CNN contributor and she is a Republican strategist and say never holds her tongue.
Is this, Ana, welcome. Is this helping or hurting Mitt Romney when Republicans go public with their criticism?
ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Don, look. This happens in campaigns and it happens at the end of campaigns. There is has been a roller coaster of love and hate with Mitt Romney throughout this entire primary. There has been a lot of criticism and reviews. I will tell you a lot of it is constructive criticism for the campaign. There is a lot of frustrations. Most Republicans agree that they'd like to see Governor Romney win this election. I can tell you that that is the case for me. And there is frustration in how some of the mistakes that have been made. You know, the fact that there has not been -- Yes.
LEMON: Anna this is me. And the thing I said --
NAVARRO: All right.
LEMON: The way o see it, I said what Republicans are really saying about Mitt Romney. What are they saying about the tape and what some deem as a rush to judgment on Libya? What are Republicans really saying? How do they feel about it?
NAVARRO: All right. I'll tell what you they're saying, Don. Look, if you're a faithful catholic, you're saying a novena. If you are an activist, you are saying we are going to win in a land side. If you're a pessimist, you say we are going to lose in a land side and he going drag down the ticket. And if you are a realist, you are saying this could still narrow up, this could still become a very tight race. We are still not out. But there need to be some changes made to this campaign. We need to reboot. Governor Romney needs to give more specifics that he needs to make the sale. Close the sale with the American people.
That's what Republicans are saying. Some say it out loud. Some say in their head and some say in private. But, there is a lot of talking going on.
LEMON: And stick to the script which is the economy, right?
NAVARRO: Well, actually there has been some divergence on that. Some folks want him to stick to the economy. They tried that for a while. Speaking about nothing but the economy. You seen them now. I think you have seen Governor Romney and Paul Ryan expand the menu of issues. There has been social issues brought in. There has been Medicare brought in. There is budget brought in and the economy continues being a very big part of it.
LEMON: OK. Mitt Romney's wife made candid comments this week when asked about Republican critics. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say to fellow Republicans who are -- ?
ANN ROMNEY: Stop it. This is hard. You want to try it, get in the ring. This is hard. And, you know, it's an important thing that we're doing right now. And it's an important election. And it is time for all Americans to realize how significant this election is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I thought she was very candid there. Very revealing. Very human reaction.
NAVARRO: I think so, too. And I have met Ann Romney. She is a very supportive and loving spouse and it is hard. Don, I am good friends with Cindy McCain. I can tell you that I was with her throughout the last campaign. It's a very stressful situation for spouses regardless whether you are Democrat or a Republican.
If you love your spouse, it's very hard to see that person be criticized and be taken to task in public. Campaigns are hard ball sport. And it is tough on a spouse. But, it also comes with the territory. I can tell you that being a candidate is tough, being president in the critique and reviews and scrutiny that comes with that is even tougher. But, I absolutely sympathize with Mrs. Romney.
LEMON: Ana, I must call Ann. Ana, thank you. Always a pleasure.
Up next --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a fact, my friend.
LEMON: Jesse "the body" and Howard "the mouth."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about if you run with me?
LEMON: Ponder a White House run. Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: In politics and in the news business. The things can go wrong even when you are reading exactly what the prompter says.
The vice president's wife learned that the hard way today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN'S WIFE: So this election is personal to me. And it is deeply personal to the man I'm about to introduce. I've seen Joe up close. I've seen how -
(CHEERS AND LAUGHTER)
LEMON: And we're going to talk about that with my guest in just a moment.
But first, the Obama and Romney campaigns aren't exciting enough for you, too mainstream, maybe a little too boring, we have the ticket for you. How about the wrestler turned governor and his running mate, the self-proclaimed king of all media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Howard, you know what? If I run for president, now you're doing this TV show now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. "America's got talent."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you're making boat loads of money. How about if you run with me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want me to be your VP?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me think about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right,
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So you know, Dean Obeidallah. He is here as a political comedian, a frequent contributor at cnn.com. Ana Navarro is back.
So Dean, I'm going to start with you. Would you vote for a Jesse Ventura, Howard Stern, presidential ticket. I think we said it would be Vent-Ho or Ven-Stern or Jess-Ho.
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, POLITICAL COMEDIAN: I like that. I like the title. It's kind of funny.
No. To be honest, I think Ventura should run with someone and give him credibility like Lindsay Lohan, like Ventura Lohan or Ventura Gary abuse, did crazy squared would be a much better take. I think that is a much more fun ticket.
Ventura really could be king. The man was governor of a state. And he ran against the system. If there's ever a time for someone to say I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a Republican, I'm running as a reformer, potentially you could be a real candidate. But you know, it becomes a joke when you say Howard Stern is going to run with you.
LEMON: Well, I don't know. I was listening to it live. I was on my way to the airport on Monday when Jesse was on Howard and I immediately got my iphone out and mail my team. I said hey, listen. We have to get him on because we have been talking about that.
Listen. I think there are a lot of people in the country that would vote for them, Ana.
NAVARRO: I do, too, Don. Nobody expected him to become governor of Minnesota and he did. So I do think there are a lot of people in the country that would vote for him. I will tell you this. I wouldn't vote for him. I left my country of Nicaragua whenever I say something people don't like, they tell me I should go back to Nicaragua.
I think if these two became president and vice president, I might just go back there.
LEMON: No! We love Howard. We love Jesse. Listen.
NAVARRO: No. No. No.
LEMON: We do. Come on.
NAVARRO: I'm not living -- I don't want him -- I like him as a comedian in chief, not the commander in chief.
LEMON: OK. Let's back up a little bit here and talk about Joe Biden. And when his wife said I've seen him up close and personal. Ana?
NAVARRO: OK, Don. I don't know how up close and personal I would like to get with this subject matter. I will tell you good old Joe is 69 years old. So I'm glad that Jill is seeing him up close and personal. And you know, as I was telling you, it's tough even for the spouses. They have to worry about what they wear, how their hair looks and now what they say.
LEMON: Yes.
NAVARRO: I remember, so far in this campaign, we have had Ann Romney unzip Mitt Romney and now we have Jill Biden seeing him up close.
LEMON: Five seconds, Dean. Go for it.
OBEIDALLAH: I love the fact that she enjoyed the moment. It didn't just go through it or was awkward about it. She embraced it. That makes it funnier for all of us, we can enjoy together. Appreciate it. Great reaction. LEMON: Great sense of humor. I enjoyed it as well.
OK, Ana, Dean, thank you very much. Dean is going to come back. Anna, we are done with you, I think.
NAVARRO: Good night to you both.
LEMON: Good night. If you ever had a question and you didn't ask because you were worried about being judged, then this is the segment for you. It's something we like to call "the judgment-free zone." Dean and I are going to talk about the prophet Muhammad and more Islam, Muslims next.
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LEMON: All right. This is our judgment free zone now. Anger is one thing, acceptance is another. And for many pundits in the U.S., that is the most mystifying thing about the reaction to this anti-Muslim film. Not just the violent we have seen, but the perception for some Americans that a religion would condone killing a blasphemer. That was a take by HBO's Bill Maher last night. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL MAHER, COMEDIAN: There were a lot of people that reacted to this an how dare do you this? Well, you know, the problem is it that liberals see this picture and they go this is not all Muslims. And that is very true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's true.
MAHER: Most Muslims don't go in the street like this. The point she was making that I've tried to make is, yes, but most Muslims, at least half of them I think around the world, think it is OK to kill somebody if they insult the prophet and that is a big problem. That is a clash of civilizations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Dean joins me again. Dean, our texts were burning up our phones last night.
OBEIDALLAH: Yes.
LEMON: OK. So we won't judge you on this one. But we have to ask you. Is bill Maher right? Is it clash of civilizations?
OBEIDALLAH: I don't think it's a clash of civilizations between the west and the east. I think it's a clash internally within the Muslim community worldwide about how they want to be defined. And we're going to let the radicals define us or we are going to stand up to them and say they don't represent us?
You know, Bill Maher is saying 50 percent of Muslims around the world, there's over a million Muslims, agree with violence and killing because of the depiction of the prophet Muhammad, to me, is a shocking statement and truly irresponsible. Unless he has some evidence, any evidence whatsoever to back that up. That is a true indictment. Every Muslim I know supports killing people.
LEMON: Let's talk. Let's talk. I think I believe whether it's accurate, you know, or not, I believe many Americans feel the way Bill Maher feels.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And I watched to today. I watched and did a lot of reading. I watched two documentaries and I saw -- there was one that was done right after 9/11 where there was a Gallup poll that said I think it was about 54 percent of Muslims believe there was no justification for 9/11. And then the rest, it was nebulous. They said no comment, they didn't have a feeling about it. And then seven percent said, yes, absolute justification.
So that's a huge number of one billion people who believe that there might be some justification for that type of action. And I think that's what Bill Maher is talking about.
OBEIDALLAH: Well, if you want to say -- I'm into the r not sure what the number is now. And I was not sure if it was 11. You know, a few percentage of Muslims who are radical or violent, or jihadists, you know, that might be accurate.
I just don't think the rest of us need to be defined by that nor should we be. And that's the challenge first. I agree with you. My fellow Americans, a lot of them were progressives. They have different opinion when they get to Muslims. They are no longer liberal. They have to deal it. We are all bad or we secretly trying to do something or we might not be as patriotic as our fellow Americans. And I think that is our challenge of some level. As Muslim can go out there and make sure people know who we are, what we're about.
LEMON: So why haven't we heard much of that? I heard Haroon talked about that. He said well, it is our focus. But I still -- I have not heard that much about it. And when I asked you about it, you said I don't want to be defined. Why should those people define me?
And this is what I say to you. I'm going to read a quote to from you late Martin Luther King Jr. He was speaking in New York one year before his assassination. And he said "a time comes when silence is betrayal," OK?
So, Dean, do you believe that Muslims who don't object to these protests are partly to blame for the bloodshed that comes but. Because it's through their silence.
OBEIDALLAH: You know, the question is what will some of them do? I mean, you know. Look at, for example, Indonesia. Seven hundred people protest out of 200 million people living in the country, 700 out of 200 million people. So the other 199 million have to get out and say to the other 700 stop protesting or do they roll their eyes? You know, these people are radicals. I have nothing to do with them. Keep in mind, Indonesia few months ago, 50,000 Muslims or Indonesians bought lady Gaga concert. Why is the Muslim in Indonesia define by the 50,000 who brought ticket to Lady Gaga? That's the struggle we have. We are defined by our worst element over and over again.
LEMON: Most people are defined by their worst element.
OBEIDALLAH: There is another article that came out that said it's not the clamber and the bad people that concern him. It's the silence -- the appalling silence of the good people. So you know, we need other good people to stand us with. Like when Bill Maher tells progressives it's OK not to like Muslims because 50 percent of them support killing people, that's horrible. Because all we have left frankly are progressives using moderates. People on the right is also moderates.
LEMON: Here is the bottom line then we have to run. And I love that we are able to talk this way. OK, this is from "The New York Times" today. This is from Roger Cohen. He says, but the failure, Dean, in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt to control violent mobs of Salafists and rage by mockery in America and Europe of Islam and the prophet Muhammad suggested unacceptable ambivalence. The rule of law here on earth must override divine indignation? Do you understand that?
OBEIDALLAH: I can't understand though, I comprehend the word. I know.
LEMON: We got to run though. We have to run. We will continue this conversation.
OBEIDALLAH: Sure. OK.
LEMON: Thank you, Dean.
OBEIDALLAH: Sure.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Coming up Sunday, don't miss a great new Fareed Zakaria special. Here's a peak.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: The world's tallest building, over half a mile high. Man made islands shaped like a palm tree sprouting with luxury hotels. There is even an indoor ski slope in this desert oasis conveniently located in a shopping mall.
Dubai stops at nothing to woo tourists. And when they come and spend their money, they are like walking job stimulus programs.
FRITS VAN PAASSCHEN, CEO, STARWOOD HOTELS AND RESORTS: They create about a million jobs by the end of this decade just from travel and tourism. ZAKARIA: Frits van Paasschen is the CEO of Starwood hotels and resorts, the company that owns the share ton, Westin and w hotel brands.
PAASSCHEN: Twenty or thirty years ago, people didn't think of the owner. Now if you're in Europe or especially if you're in Russia, it's a place where people go.
ZAKARIA: By 20, hotel guests up predicted to triple.
PAASSCHEN: The idea that a small city state can create a million jobs in a decade. That's an enormous amount of growth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Global lessons putting people to work, Sunday night 8:00 Eastern, right here on CNN.
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LEMON: This is our moment of the week. The shuttle "Endeavour" has taken its last flight. This past week, people across the U.S. got one last look at the Endeavor as it made its way to the west coast.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Engine start. Six, five, four --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The fifth and final shuttle "Endeavour" that first took off in May of 1992, a lot of us watched that first launch right here on CNN. Endeavor arriving in California yesterday aboard the custom fitted Boeing 747. Thrilling crowds in San Francisco and what a shot as it passed a Hollywood sign and then also the Golden Gate Bridge.
After landing in L.A., it waits a hangar. There it is up by at Hollywood sign. Next month it will be moved to the California science center.
But as Americans watched the skies this past week and for the past decades, the Endeavor like all the space shuttles hold a special place if our hearts. A thought that can be summed up in a simple phrase.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
LEMON: Well said. Only in America.
From the CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta, in America, I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for watching. Good night.