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Sunni Leader Calls for End to Violence; Pakistani President Put Reward on the Head of Nakoula Bessely Nakoula; An Outraged has Resulted from the Anti-Muslim Video in You Tube
Aired September 23, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: The deadly attacks on Americans in Libya. Could it have been prevented. The Obama administration comes under question. And then --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus.
LEMON: If Jesus jokes are fair game, then why in a free country is the Prophet Muhammad beyond reproach?
And another hands off topic, the power of religion -- not the peaceful notion of it, but the reality of why it is often turns deadly. A Christian, a Muslim and a Jew walk into our studio for a conversation that is no joke.
And how booze helps shape the United States of America.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, this is the stuff your social studies teacher just didn't tell you.
LEMON: All that plus "no talking points" and the judgment-free zone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Hello, everybody. I am Don Lemon. Thank you for joining us.
First, your headlines. A leading figure from the Sunni Islam world has called for a calm in the wake of continuing violent protest. The Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gomaa, spoke with CNN and called for Muslim followers to act more as the Prophet Muhammad would.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI GOMMA, GRAND MUFTI OF EGYPT (via translator): I was one of the first to warn about the dangers of this film in a statement to the Muslim world, I asked people to deal with the situation the way Prophet Muhammad dealt with issues through patience and wisdom.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: A tragedy is unfolding right now on one of the highest mountain peaks in the world, an avalanche has killed at least 11 climbers on the poles Mount Manaslu, at least a dozen are missing now. More than 200 people were attempting to scale the mountain from different points. But this morning, a wall of snow crashed through several of the camps. And Manaslu is considered one of the most dangerous mountains to navigate.
Turkey is the most recent victim of spillover fighting from Syria. And artillery rounds from a battle on the Syrian side of the border landed in a small Turkish town wounding a number of residents. For days now, Syria's military and rebels have been fighting for control of the Syrian town.
It is the latest viral video, green day front man having, Billy Joe Armstrong, having an on stage meltdown. Armstrong was not too happy when he got the cue that he had one minute to wrap up his set. Well, just after that tirade, Armstrong apologized and announced he is seeking treatment for substance abuse.
Immediately after the assault on the U.S. consulate in Libya, one question was on everybody's mind. How could this happen in how is it that the most powerful nation on earth cannot even protect its own envoys in far away countries? So, how did does happen in Benghazi? We should know more soon.
A state department investigation in to the attack will begin this week. And earlier I talked with "Wall Street Journal" intelligence correspondent Siobhan Gorman who has been covering the story, and I ask her as soon as Susan Cohen of main was accurate when she called the security levels in Benghazi woefully inadequate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIOBHAN GORMAN, INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT, WALL STREET JOURNAL: But, it was certainly quite limited, at least in terms of personnel. The standard security there was four forearmed Libyan guards and four unarmed Libyan guards. On the day of the attack there also were five or so armed diplomatic security officers presumably because the ambassador was there as well. But, what was interesting as we looked into it was that, security had not really changed, even though the threats there were escalating from about April on, and they also lacked some pretty basic precautions at the consulate including just basic firefighting equipment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And with so much controversy about whether the consulate attack was planned or spontaneous. I asked Mrs. Gorman if the administration is being totally truthful with the American people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GORMAN: Well, certainly, the investigation is still unfolding. What I have learned as I have looked into particularly the question of al Qaeda involvement. It's quite possible that the Al Qaeda involvement came day of if it did at all because they've -- they are right now analyzing conversations that were held between al Qaeda and Islamic and enter al-Sharias, which was its believed to have been involved in the attack. So, it is actually possible for both sides to be correct that it - it did happen spontaneously, but there was some sort of same day orchestration or consultation that did occur.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And CNN's Piers Morgan sat down face to face in New York with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and he asked about the recent violence in respond to the anti-Muslim film on YouTube.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, IRAN (via translator): What took place was ugly, offending the holy prophet is quite ugly. This has very little or nothing to do with freedom and freedom of speech. This is the weakness of -- and the abuse of freedom, and in many places it is a crime.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST, "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT": There were protesters all over the Middle East now threatening the staff of American embassies, threatening to kill them and behead them. Do you think they should stop?
AHMADINEJAD (via translator): You see, I cannot determine what people should do, but I do think that extremism gives birth to following and subsequent extremism. Perhaps if the politicians take a better position in the west vis-a-vis offensive words or thoughts or pictures towards what we hold holy, I think conditions could improve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You can see the rest of that interview Monday night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, of course, here on CNN.
And next, the Prophet Muhammad, a topic often feared by many in the western world. Why are so many so afraid of the mention of Muhammad.
And then later, are Muslims in America taking a "those people over there" attitude. How silence speaks value in tonight's "no talking point."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tonight, a discussion about the Prophet Muhammad. A discussion that most likely will make a lot of you very uncomfortable. But why should it? I am here in the United States which prides itself on freedom, especially the freedom of expression, yet through the technology of television, people around the world can see this including radical Islamic, who in the last few days attacked and murdered people in the name of Muhammad. And to be clear, our motive here is to educate and to understand, not to incited or instigate. That's it.
One of the big stories this week was about this. It is the new iphone and on this thing, you can take pictures, you can shoot videos and then when you are done, there are buttons that allow you to tweet it, you can Facebook it or send it right to YouTube for the entire world to see. Anyone, anywhere at any second is capable of broadcasting something insulting. So my point is that you cannot stop the march over time.
So, as I watch the violence overseas, I wonder in what century are these protesters living, and then I read an article, a William Saletan's article on slate.com it is called "Internet Videos Will Insult Your Religion; Ignore Them and Get Over It."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Welcome, William. Thanks for joining us. It's not just democracy or the U.S. it's technology. And no matter your religious beliefs, William, you cannot stop progress.
WILLIAM SALETAN, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, SLATE.COM: No. And Don, you just made the point. That you don't require a network anymore to broadcast hateful speech around the world. All you need is a video camera, an Internet connection. Literally two people were responsible for creating and disseminating this movie on the internet that has enflamed the Muslim world.
LEMON: And you write that filmmaker wanted to prove that Islam is a violent religion and the protesters played right into his scripts, especially since most of them, William, had never even seen the video. They are being manipulated in more ways than one here.
SALETAN: Yes. The manipulators are on both sides, OK? We have our crazies over in this country who want to enflame passions over in the Muslim world and get people angry. And then, we have radical cleric over in the Muslim world who are happy to collaborate in this with each side hating the other and trying to insight their populations against each other.
LEMON: So, the next time it will be something else, another video, another cartoon or what have you. William, I want you to listen to this.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religion beliefs of others.
HILLARY CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Let me state very clearly and I hope it is obvious that the United States government had absolutely nothing to do with this video.
LEMON: OK. So that is part of a PSA, the U.S. government spent $70,000 of ad's time to run on TV in Pakistan. Not once did they mention free speech. So here is a question by being so sensitive and not telling some of these people, as you say just to get over it. Has the U.S. become enablers prolonging the inevitable that that this handful of protesters or however many they are, they are ultimately fighting a losing battle? SALETAN: I wouldn't be so hard on the administration. They may not have used the word free speech, but they're trying to convey something very complicated.
Look, we are at the beginning of a big, long, international conversation with the Muslim world. And what we are trying to convey is just because we allow something to be broadcast, to be put on the internet in this country does not mean the government or American people support it. And that's a very complicated idea that we're trying to convey people who live in countries where that kind of thing is not allowed.
LEMON: You also write to the protesters. You said that hatred and bloodshed will go on until you stop taking the bait, mockery of your prophet on the computer with an Internet address, somewhere in the world can no longer be your master nor can the puppet clerics who tell you to respond with violence.
So in writing that, William, in America, we take the words and interpret them as tough love. But, do you worry that what you have written will insight Islamists to do more violence?
SALETAN: No, no. And in fact, quite the opposite. I mean, the point that I'm simply making is that since we can't stop it, we can't stop somebody with an iPhone from making a video, we can't stop someone with an Internet connection from disseminating it. The place where we can stop this for the people who are the targets of this, who they are trying to offend with the anti-Muslim stuff to ignore it. Simply ignore it. Nobody came to watch this movie when put in the theater in the United States. Nobody. Why can't the Muslim world treat it the same way?
LEMON: William Saletan. Thank you very much. Very interesting article. And we appreciate you joining us.
SALETAN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Another hands-off topic. The power of religion. Not the peaceful notion of it, but the reality of why it so often turns deadly. A Christian, a Muslim and Jew walk into our studio for a conversation that is no joke.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We are having a conversation tonight about faith and technology and the violence that erupted overseas in response to the anti-Islam video that was posted on YouTube. More than 20 countries saw protests and the violence in Libya even costs the U.S. ambassador his life. Again, all of this because of a video depiction of the Prophet Muhammad. A mere mention of him can incite violence, destruction, even death. But why?
I asked Haroon Moghul a fellow at the institute for social policy and understanding, why is Muhammad off-limit? (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HAROON MOGHUL, FELLOW, INSTITUTE FOR SOCIAL AND UNDERSTANDING: I don't think Muhammad is off-limits. I think part of the problem is we don't know much about who he is. I think the people who often speak about Islam and behalf of Islam, people press themselves as experts generally are not familiar with Islam. And aren't able to communicate who Muhammad is to Muslims and what he means to Muslims.
So, I think, the problem really is that we just don't have a conversation about Islam that we deserve. And so, what happens you is get extremist voices from both sides filling in the gaps, leaving the vast majority of Muslims and the vast majority of Americans in the dark.
LEMON: But no matter how civilized the conversation we have here tonight or on television, it won't stop what happened. It's not stopped being the protests.
MOGHUL: I think we have to be fair when we look at the protests and what's happening. I mean, the overwhelming majority of Muslims from the grassroots to Muslim leaders and religious leaders and political leaders have condemned the violence and condemn the protests. Even if you look at the people who are protesting and even smaller percentage are protesting violently.
And while there are definitely people with extremist offense were pushing those protest, I don't think the protests are really about the Prophet Muhammad. I think they have a lot more to do with local politics, with American foreign policy and with feelings of humiliation and being basically not treated with dignity, not treated as part of society as being able to politically participate.
So there are a lot of feelings of marginalization and alienation. And I think this movie is more of an excuse for people to come to the streets and vent those feelings and these kinds of gestures are pushed by extremist voices and political leaders in order to push their own cause forward.
LEMON: I hear what you're saying. But as most of us look at it around the world and especially the western, in western culture, we don't see many people coming forward who are maybe secular Muslims or people who are more in the middle for a lack of better term. Not radical Islamists who come forward to denounce these sorts of activities. We see the people who are out on the streets. And we hear the words that you're saying that it's a handful. It's not a lot of people. But I don't think most people believe it because we don't see the other side. We don't see a counter weight that is as big or that can counter that -- those protesters.
MOGHUL: Well, I think the counter way, as their words, is not paying attention. We tend to show things that hid to a narrative of what we expect and what's some world to be. Pakistan is a country of 190 million people. Ten or 20,000 people on the street is not a huge number of people. At the same time, there have been massive protests in Benghazi in Libya, 30, 40,000 people which is a huge percentage of the population of a tiny country like Libya and they are even coming out protesting against the killing against Ambassador Stevens. They are in protesting against extremism, even protesting against radicalism. Every major religious leader across the Muslim world pretty much across the board is condemned violent protests as condemned the calls for extreme action and radicalism. It's just a question of what we're paying attention to. And we tend to focus on the things that produce the best images on TV.
LEMON: I want to read something from the "New York Times". In this article, "The New York Times" columnist Roger Cohen writes this. He says, "The Muslim world -- the Muslim world cannot visit both ways. They cannot place Islam at the center of political light and in extreme cases political violence while at the same time declaring that the religion is off-limits to contestation and ridicule."
Is there a belief in the Muslim world that you can't have -- can you have it both ways? That the Prophet Muhammad or cannot in any way be depicted at all? Is it a sense that the Muslim world wants it both ways?
MOGHUL: I don't think Roger Cohen is being fair and I don't think he is being accurate. The Prophet Muhammad is a deeply contested figure. I mean, most of the major divisions in Islam today between Sunnis and Shias, for example, have to do with interpreting Prophet Muhammad's legacy.
I think the difference here is that the caricatures that are being made are bluntly offensive. It's not about meaningful criticism and debate. It is about mockery and humiliation. And for a small percentage of Muslims and I have to underline that a very small percentage, that kind of caricature and mockery is not inseparable from the kind of treatment their countries and societies have received.
So, for Egyptians who are storming the U.S. embassy, is it really about the Prophet Muhammad or is it about what they perceive American foreign policy to be? I think those are questions that we haven't really separated out in our heads. I do agree that there needs to be more of a conversation about religion that needs to be more an honest conversation. But I think that as you see democracy spreading across the Muslim world, we will see that happen. And maybe this is actually the first stages of that process happening.
LEMON: So, as a Muslim, do you think the Prophet Muhammad should be depicted in any way? Is it OK to depict him to make a character tour of him or to depict him in any way?
MOGHUL: I mean, honestly, I believe in freedom of speech. So, as long as someone is not in sighting violence directly, it's fair game. People should be able to make the points they want to make and make the argument they want to make.
From a religious point of view and a moral point of view, Muslims find negative depictions or religious figures and sacred figures like Jesus, John the Baptist, Muhammad to be offensive. But I find it offensive. That doesn't mean I'm going to go out into the streets or write a letter to the editor. I'm mature enough to say you have the point of views. I have a point of view. We can agree to disagree. And I think based on what is happening across the Muslim world, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not concerned enough to get on to the streets whether to protest peacefully or among even smaller minority pushing things violently. I think we're just looking at a radical fringe, unfortunately.
LEMON: Do you think most Muslims worldwide think it's OK to depict the Prophet Muhammad?
MOGHUL: I don't think they agree with the ability to depict him. But at the same time there are differences within Islam. A lot of Shia Muslims for example, don't have the same taboo around depicting the Prophet Muhammad and images. There are also movies that are made about the prophet's life and sacred figures and Islamic thought.
I think is a lot more to do with political grievances, with anger, with democratization, with opening up a political process for the first time. And really these are societies where people are beginning to see their chance to really influence society. So it's going to be messy along the way. This is unfortunately in the one of the bumps along the road. It's a more democratic and more sophisticated societies.
LEMON: Great conversation. Haroon Moghul, thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: So, we have heard from a Muslim. Next, it's the Christian and the Jew's turn. Then if you had a question you didn't ask because you were worried about being judged, this next segment is for you. "No talking points" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Parody of the Prophet Muhammad has led to deadly up rising throughout the Muslim world. For many, this begs a question, how is it that images of Jesus can be made to parodies without violent consequence but not the Prophet Muhammad.
Is depicting one more acceptable than the other. Two men have something to say on this, Bishop Jim Swilley and Rabbi ShmuleyBoteach. And I spoke to them both, and we hear from the rabbi first.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, KOSHER JESUS: Muslims need to understand in any free and open society everything is going to be fair game. And what they really need to understand is that nobody can insult Islam except Muslims themselves. In another words, it's the behavior on the part of the religious people that profess a certain faith that will ultimately determine how that faith is depicted.
If a Catholic priest is being found doing something illegitimate with a child, he has disgraced his faith. If a rabbi does something that is wrong within Judaism, then he has maligned his faith. Those who go out and burn embassies and do so in the name of the Prophet Muhammad, they are the blasphemers, not some idiot with a camera with B-list actors out of Hollywood is uploading it up on YouTube.
So, it's we who have to be judged by how we depict out faith through our actions. And we really need to tell our Islamic brothers and sisters forthrightly and candidly and lovingly, because I respect Islam, that you run the risk of allowing the world to see your religion as violent by not coming out much more forcefully and condemning this violence.
LEMON: And that's part of our discussion that we had this week as we were putting the show together and that I had earlier with Mr. Moghul and then we will have a little later on. And before I let you respond, Bishop, and this week the idea that Jesus may have had a wife and it didn't take long for the late night shows to go to town and have a little bit of fun. Check it out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wouldn't than something if Jesus was married? He can turn water wine but he can't take out the garbage. Maybe Jesus wasn't his name. Maybe that what his wife would yell every time he came home late and it stuck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, now Jesus, sounds like maybe I got you at a bad time. So, I will check with you real soon, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the tigers, man! It's 1 1/2.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. OK. Thank you. Will do, Jesus.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus was married. That is some pure uncut sitcom bait. Can you raise the dead but heaven help him when he forgets to put down the toilet seat. Yes, Kevin James is Jesus in "the King of Kings."
LEMON: See, so, Rabbi, to your point, this is all over the networks. But there have been no uprising, no burning of effigies of Kimmel, Letterman or Stewart. Are we just looking at profoundly different cultures or is there something to be head about letting words just be words, bishop, as the rabbi said?
BISHOP JIM SWILLEY, PASTOR, CHURCH IN THE NOW: Well, when I see those, I can't help but laugh because those guys are hysterically funny. When I watch any portrayal of Jesus from anything, you know, my boys like "South Park" and "Family Guy," the guys are really even R rated. But they have Jesus parodies on.
LEMON: But to the rabbi's point. If you laugh at it, then you laugh at it. You don't have to be offended.
SWILLEY: Right. Well, for me personally, they are not really talking about the Jesus that I know. In my mind, they are skewering an image that people have about Jesus that really is attacking organized religion much more than it is the actual Jesus.
LEMON: You are offended by that at all?
SWILLEY: No. Because I know who Jesus is. And like even if settings wherein that is very ecumenical, I know that Christians don't like when you are sort inform that setting where you say oh, the faiths are accepted and embraced because there is a great feeling among evangelicals that anybody that is not a Christian is -- they're not going to heaven, they're going to hell.
My feeling is that in all due respect, Jesus is a big boy. I mean, you know, you bring him to the party. He can take care of himself. If I really do believe he is the King of kings and the Lord of Lords, then someone doing Mel Brooks parody or whatever, it's a nonissue.
LEMON: It is a nonissue. But again, as I was saying, you can't stop the march of time. Because what you say upload this on to anything and if you want to live in a free and democratic society, that's part of living in a free and democratic society.
SWILLEY: Absolutely.
LEMON: But then again, we're looking at it in a western way.
SWILLEY: Because when you deal with Islam, you are talking about national identity. You are not just talking about religion. You are talking about this is what you call a Muslim country. So, it's the same things that like someone insulting your mother or insulting your family or your school or whatever, except that when it comes to religion, you are dealing with the mysteries of God.
LEMON: Rabbi, you heard the jokes. We laughed at them. There were no burn effigy. Nobody issued a plot or anything for any of those guys. So then, what gives here?
BOTEACH: Yes, the book of Mormon playing a couple blocks where I am sitting right now. That is odderly blasamist to Mormons and they are not at the barricade
Look, there are two very important points. A first of all, a lot of our Arab brothers and sisters are living in countries where forget about criticizing the Prophet Muhammad, if they spoke out against his own leader, they will be put on jail or they might be punish. Try speaking out in Saudi Arabia against King Abdullah or even in Jordan. Certainly in Syria where they're fighting for their lives. So there is a suppression of speed o speech.
But one of the lessons I feel that the world can learn from Judaism specifically, is that in the Hebrew bible upon which all religions, Christianity and Islam built, there are no perfect people. No one is infallible. Everybody is subject to criticism.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: And thanks for the rabbi and also the bishop. Time now for "no talking points."
So tonight, Muslims, Islam and insult. For many in the U.S., the most mystifying thing about the reaction on anti-Islam film is not just the violence we have seen, but perception for some Americans that a religion would condone the killing of a blasphemer.
HBO's Bill Maher.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL MAHER, COMEDIAN: The point she was trying that I'm trying to make is yes, but most Muslims at least half of them around the world think it's OK to kill somebody if they insult the prophet, and that is a big problem. That is a clash of civilizations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Dean Obeidallah has been writing about this on CNN.com He is live with us tonight for "no talking points." He is a comedian, a political commentator, also a Muslim.
So, Dean, thank you.
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, POLITICAL COMEDIAN: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: After last night, we sparked a conversation that is going crazy on social media so we decided to bring you back and talked about this. Those were strong words from Bill Maher, but he is saying civilized people don't act this way.
OBEIDALLAH: I know he is saying that, you know. As I said last night, I disagree with the number. Fifty percent is an irresponsible number. I would love to see polls to support that. But that doesn't matter. You are right it's about perception. And there are Americans out there, lot of fellow Americans don't think Muslims are coming out and denouncing. First of all, I want to make is clear, I actually denounce violence in the name of Islam or any faith for that matter.
(CROSSTALK)
OBEIDALLAH: We have to fight that.
LEMON: You do. You do. And we are going to talk more about that. But, do you believe it's OK to depict the Prophet Muhammad in any way, unfavorable or favorable, in anyone?
OBEIDALLAH: To me, as an American and I have to say frankly I'm an American first, I believe in freedom of expression. It's our fundamental right, our first amendment. I'm a comedian. I'm an opinion writer. Freedom of expression is parliament. Has to be protected. Even if you hate what people say, I will defend your right to say it.
LEMON: So, you think it's OK?
OBEIDALLAH: I think it's acceptable in our society, and will defend the right to do it. I think it's offending certain people clearly, but Muslim-America are not, at all, reacting the same way extremist are in other countries. LEMON: Do believe most Muslim around the world think it's OK?
OBEIDALLAH: No. I don't think -- I can't quantify the number, but by the faith you are not supposed to depict Muhammad, because this is only worship God. They don't want idolatry. That's why. So, there are some who are offended.
It is not about being offended. We can offended by everything. I can e-mails about jokes going, how can you make fun of this person or that person. It tell you respond to it. A civil protest is fine. We have to defend civil protest. That's freedom of expression, too. It's violent that we have to condemn.
LEMON: OK. So, listen. On Friday, we started talking about this during the Bill Maher show and texted you and I said I hope you are watching Bill Maher and then you and I went back and forth. You said that that you were angry about some of my responses, some of what you were seeing. And you said to me, those people don't represent me. They don't represent Muslims. So, to a non-Muslim, you know what that sounds like? It sounds like a "those people over there" attitude.
OBEIDALLAH: It's not - let's be honest. There are American Muslims are not protesting this way violently. It's a teeny number and we keep saying this. So for me is, to ask my fellow Americans, tweet me @deanofcomedy, tell me what you would like us to do. I am sincere and not mocking, I want to know. Because we are fighting perception. I am frustrated because I don't know what more to do and we are trying our best. People are denying Muslim groups in America and leaders in the Muslim world are denouncing that thankfully.
You know, politics is playing a big role in motivating a lot of his people to go to the street.
LEMON: OK, Dean.
Remember last night, we had a time to show and I want to make sure I get it all in. Pakistani government leader acting on his own offered $100,000 bounty for the head of the filmmaker specifically, encouraging al Qaeda and the Taliban to kill him. He says quote, "I am a Muslim first and then a government representative."
Dean, that only serves reinforce what Americans believe to be in our cake and violent a truth about Muslims?
OBEIDALLAH: I agree with you 100 percent. that is horrible. That man is an idiot. It is like having a clan members speak and that somehow defining people, you know, who are the same color or faith. This man is a radical, is an extremist, he should not be allowed in the government. And the government of Pakistan should make it a case and make this a point clearly to throw him out of the government.
No one should be allowed in the government if you are going to be a civil democratic society. And that's what Pakistan wants to be. It tries to be aspires to be and they have to throw this man out.
LEMON: Comedians are in empathic about free speech, Dean, pushing the envelope. And as a comedian, you know that it's often easier for people to learn through humor, think about the daily show you are going to be with (INAUDIBLE) and on and on. Why is Muhammad off limits to you? Why won't you make jokes about him? Comedians make fun Jesus all the time?
OBEIDALLAH: Well, we had this discussion. I do - I made a choice, I don't make fun of anyone's faith. I don't do joke about Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Muhammad, it is not part of my comedy. I make - I do political comedy and make fun of people in power every night and social issues, I make -- do jokes about Islam phobia or homophobia, whatever you want about double standards I will fight against.
LEMON: But don't you think - that is by saying something is off limits that gives more power --
OBEIDALLAH: No, this is my choice. I am not saying it's off limits. It's not something I want to talk about because it's not part of my DNA as a comic. It is not where I want to go in that direction. If a comic wants to do jokes making fun of all the prophets or make fun of Jesus, I will defend their right to do it. They might have consequences from doing, not physical action but, you know, they might make it on TV and they say something really ridiculous. To each comment to chose. I don't demonize anyone's faith, so I'm not going to demonize Islam either.
LEMON: OK. So you know, you know we are dealing with time issues, and not a lot of people realized that when we are doing with this. This is already going on for a long time, and people is are going, oh, my God, where am I going to find the time in the show.
So, last night I read this quote and you didn't have a chance to respond because we are out of time. It's from an op-ed from Roger Cohen in "The New York Times" and it says, "But the failure in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt to control violent mobs of Salafis enraged by mockery in America, and Europe of Islam in the Prophet Muhammad suggests an unacceptable ambivalence. The rule here on earth must override divine indignation. Your turn now."
OBEIDALLAH: My turn. First of all, Roger Cohen is not a bible, but in anything. I think the point he is making, it's already dated. Libya, just last night, Libyans rose up and got rid of the militants who were in the Benghazi area, the ones responsible for killing our ambassador --
LEMON: It took a while.
OBEIDALLAH: It took a couple days. I think it is a turning point. I have never seen more Muslims on twitter denounced the attack on the ambassador. Thousands of people write a condolences letters to ambassador. I think it could , honestly, a tipping point in the right direction. That is what I'm hopeful about. It's not overnight. You can change it one day. But, I mean, I am really being honest. If you go to Twitter and Facebook and you see the comments I am getting from people, I have never seen this before. I have never seen Muslims from other countries, Indonesia and Pakistan and the Middle East and I perform across the region denouncing this. And to me, I think we are at a point where perhaps we are about to take a big step. That's what I am really hopeful about.
LEMON: OK.
Dean. Thank you very much.
OBEIDALLAH: Thanks, Don. I appreciate having the conversation, too.
LEMON: Yes. I appreciate it having this conversation to. And you heard Dean just mentioned this about our conversation. Our conversation about this topic struck accord on social media last night.
Most of you were happy to finally hear an honest discussion on television. However, some of you called me bias, others said the same for Dean. I can't speak for Dean, except to say that Dean and I are glad we can speak honestly and openly with each other about this and any other subject.
But, as for me, am I biased? Maybe I am. How is that, bro? I think more of us should, at the very least, admit that we might have a bias or prejudice because if you don't allow the possibility it doesn't allow you to grow and learn. How can any of us learn anything if we start with the belief that something does not exist?
And that's tonight's "no talking points."
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LEMON: These caught up on today's headlines now.
A wall of snow has claimed the lives of at least 11 people on the world's highest mountain, one of the world's highest mountains, more than a dozen climbers on Nepal's Mount Manaslu after an Avalanche swept through camp sites. Crews evacuated the injured and more than 200 people were climbing the mountain when the Avalanche struck.
It's the latest viral video. Green day front man, Billie Joe Armstrong, having an on stage meltdown. Armstrong was not too happen when he got the cue that he had one minute to wrap up his set. Just after that tirade, Armstrong apologized and announced he is seeking treatment for substance abuse.
The political thriller homeland is cleaning up at the Emmy awards. Damian Lewis won Best Lead Actor in a Drama Series; he beat out Jon Hamm of "Mad Men." Claire Danes won Best Lead Actress in a Drama series. "Homeland" also won Best Writing in a Drama Series.
Now, we want viewers to stay connected to CNN even on the go. Grab your mobile phone and go to CNN.com/TV. Of you are on a desktop or laptop you can watch CNN live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Let's take a look at the big stories we had from the White House to wall street. We begin tonight with the President's plans for the week. JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I am Jessica Yellin at the White House.
Next week, President Obama will speak to the United Nations' general assembly. Among his topics, the attacks in Libya that killed Americans and the instability in the Middle East. While in New York, the President will also address Bill Clinton's Global Initiative. Later in the week, President Obama will continue his campaign travel visiting the battleground state of Ohio.
PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN POLITICAL EDITOR: I am Paul Steinhauser at the CNN political desk.
Mitt Romney starts the week campaigning in the swing state of Colorado. Tuesday, he speak as does President Obama, at former president Bill Clinton's annual global initiative gathering in New York city. Then it's off to Ohio for a two-day bus tour through the battleground state. Romney picks up in the Buckeye State where his wing man leaves off. Running mate Paul Ryan campaigns in Ohio on Monday.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN MONEY.COM CORRESPONDENT: I am Poppy Harlow in New York.
Well, looking ahead to the week on Wall Street, we'll find out just how much the U.S. economy grew in the second quarter of this year with the final GDP readings set to be released on Thursday. We are also going to get the latest new home sales data and also a look at consumer confidence. Of course, any economic news these days plays right into the election.
Meantime, Nike and BlackBerry maker researcher in motion, both report their quarterly earnings this week and crop will be replaced by United healthcare on the Dow. We will track it all for you on CNN money.
A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT: I am "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT'S" A.J. Hammer. Here's what we are watching this week.
We are catching up with TV legends, Carol Burnett, Tim Conway and Vicky Lawrence. They are going to be right here with me on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." We are going to be talking about how the ground breaking "Carol Burnett Show"" changed television forever.
Plus, I go one on one with Justin Bieber's mom.
LEMON: The First Lady, Michelle Obama, speaking out about voters' rights and she talked about voter id laws, something my next guest says in a world is racism.
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LEMON: Republican lawmakers have pushed voter ID laws around the country and Democrats are crying foul.
Our contributors L.Z. Granderson and Will Cain weighed in on this topic. And we started our conversation with the remarks by first lady, Michelle Obama, at Saturday night's congressional black caucus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: We all get a say in our democracy, no matter who we are or where we are from or what we look like or who we love. So we cannot let anyone discourage us from casting our ballots. We cannot make anybody make us feel unwelcome in the voting booth.
LEMON: She says feel unwelcome in the voting booth. Is it -- are people really -- is there really a strategy to make people feel unwelcome in the voting booth? Ti mean, the former president Bill Clinton --
WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No.
LEMON: He said he never has seen it so blatant of not letting people vote.
CAIN: Really? Really? He never seen so (INAUDIBLE) when they made out in American's camp jelly beans in a jar and get the number right before they cast their vote. Look, people feel strongly about this, so I will put it strong to you. This is the biggest bag of nothing designed to inflame voters, and specifically minority voters into turning out this election.
If you want to equate showing your ID, and ID which if you don't have the government will provide you for free, and if you don't have that free ID, they will provide you that you can still cast a ballot, a provisional ballot which will be counted later. If that's the equivalent of a poll tax or a literacy test on African-Americans in this country, you are asking us to stretch logic to the furthest absurdity.
LEMON: L.Z.
L.Z. GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I am trying not to go off on my friend Will, here. I'm going to try to keep my emotions intact here.
I am just going to say it's racist. I am not going to dance around it. It's driven by racism. And the fact that Will can't see it, it's fine. Everyone doesn't have to see the same story. I'm going to what the actual story is.
This is driven by race. I was at the speech last night. I was at that dinner last night and I will tell you I did not believe there thinking I need to vote for Obama because he is black. I left there thinking as an American citizen. We all should be offended these tactics are being used to curtail our rights, the rights that black and whites died for. You don't have to go all the way back to slavery. I mean, Jesse Helms, hello, he used very aggressive tactics to scare blacks into going back to the polls.
CAIN: It is nothing like this. GRANDERSON: Let me finish. I allowed you to finish. Same things like if you go to the polls and you don't have x, y and z documents, you will go to jail. That was not a long time ago. You and I, will, were in college when that was going on. And so, if you think this is some sort of a rouse, than what you just really saying is that, I am a little bit out of touch when it comes to faith that are addressing minorities, and I need my friend Lz to tell me about them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Never a dull moment with Will Cain and L.Z. Granderson.
Up next --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: How booze helped shape the United States of America.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, this is the stuff your social studies teacher just didn't tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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LEMON: Mike Rowe, best known as the host of "Dirty Jobs" on the discovery network. Our Victor Blackwell talked about his new show on the network, How booze belt America. He says it played a big role in the settlers just getting to the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE ROWE, HOST, DIRTY JOBS: The booze is on the main flower. In fact. The May flower wasn't head of the climate. It was headed south. It's not in famous because they ran out of beer. And back on those days, beer was the only let you a drink. Once they got into New England, or what became New England, they started to build taverns every few miles. There was no facebook. You know, Taverns were the social network, beer is what thing that held everybody together.
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The one portion I watched that I was amazed by was the "National Anthem," and it's based on an English drinking song?
ROWE: Yes, to inaccurate in heaven was an old poem that was around for years and years and years. And the tunes was in fact a drinking song. You know, Francis Key was a lawyer hired to defend an American who actually gave British soldiers a quarter. He and his guy are on a ship drinking with there are wine, anchored outside of Fort McHenry, bombs bursting in air, the whole thing goes on when key writes the "star-spangled banner." And so, you know, he is drinking wine when he was writing it. And ultimately, this is all set to an English drinking song. So, you know, I'm not say we don't have a national anthem without booze, but we certainly don't have the one we have.
BLACKWELL: What is your favorite story about the influence of alcohol and the founding of the country?
ROWE: Like you could look, for instance, at Lincoln's assassination. Everybody knows the story, right? Ford's theater, star saloon, John Wilkes booth is in the saloon for a full half hour before he shoots the President. He is sitting there drinking. Liquid courage. He finally gets his courage up and he leaves the room to shoot my favorite president. People know that.
What they don't know in the same room is a guy in a sort of Pinkerton uniform dressed like a cop, that's John Parker, that's Lincoln's bodyguard. Everybody is drinking. So, you know, when you think about how did booze take America on a different course, you know, would booth have pulled the trigger if he had not had a few in him? Would the bodyguard has stopped it? Have you been on this proper post? It helped bring the north and south together faster. It hastened the reconciliation, because much of the south was horrified by what booth did. So, it's not about booze being a good or bad thing, it's about the fact that it's always in the room, always shaping things whether we like it or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: More on Victor's interview with Mike Rowe, go to cnn.com/video.
I'm Don Lemon at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. Thank you for watching. Good night.
END