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People Trapped In Collapsed Garage; Supreme Court Weighs Affirmative Action; Romney Changes Stance On Abortion; Romney Needs Working Moms; The Happy Deer Hunter; Ann Romney's Popularity Surges; Michelle Obama a Secret Weapon for President Obama; House Hearing on Benghazi Attack; Garbage Dump Near Drug Facility
Aired October 10, 2012 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm Frederica Whitfield in for Suzanne Malveaux. This hour in the CNN NEWSROOM, we're focusing on Mitt Romney's changing stance on abortion. Plus, the wives are more popular than their husbands. We're talking about Ann Romney and Michelle Obama. Could they help sway voters? Let's get straight to it.
And we're also following this developing story out of Florida where a parking garage has collapsed trapping several people. Rescue crews are on the scene in Doral, Florida. We don't know exactly how many people are trapped, but authorities say one person has been taken to the hospital. A spokeswoman for Miami Dade fire and rescue says the parking garage was under construction when it collapsed. They're calling it a pancake collapse because the floors fell on one another from top to bottom. We'll, of course, update you as we get more information there in Doral, Florida. Our affiliates there helping us out.
And now, to a huge affirmative action case that's before the U.S. Supreme Court. Today, the Justices heard arguments in a case regarding a student who claims she was denied admission to the University of Texas because she is white. That student, Abigail Noel Fisher, that's her right there, sued the school after being rejected in 2008. Fisher says U.T.'s admissions policy unfairly favors minority students. The school says it only considers race in some cases to insure diversity on campus, which it calls a critical component to learning. The U.S. Supreme Court ruling could have a dramatic impact on admissions policies at schools across the country.
All right, 27 days now to the election, and we're talking about one of the most polarizing issues out there, abortion. Some Democrats are accusing Mitt Romney of trying to straddle both sides of the debate. In an interview with the "Des Moines Register" yesterday, Romney said he doesn't intend to push for legislation to restrict abortion if he is elected president. Here's the quote. "There's no legislation with regards to abortion that I'm familiar with that would become part of my agenda."
But then, he goes on to say that he is still firmly, quote, "pro- life." Abortion is, of course, a big talker right now among female voters, in particular, and that's a group Romney has been having a hard time attracting. I want to bring in CNN Political Editor Paul Steinhauser, live from Washington for more on this. So, Paul, you know, if the goal is to bring in more women into the Republican fold, is just saying abortion won't be an issue going to be enough?
PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN POLITICAL EDITOR: It may be a first step, if that's what Mitt Romney is trying to do here. His campaign is pushing back on that. But, Fred, there has traditionally, historically I guess you could say, been a gender gap when it comes to presidential elections. The majority of women tend to favor the Democratic candidates. The majority of men tend to favor the Republican candidates. And it is still around this cycle. Take a look at this from gallop. This is, I guess, the most recent numbers, you could say, on the gender gap.
There you go, this is from their daily tracking poll. And you can see that when you break it down among women and men, look at that, among women, the president with a five-point advantage, among men, Mitt Romney with a nine-point advantage. Of course, some other polls show the gender gap more pronounced, some others show it a little tight, but that has been a storyline this entire cycle that -- at least since the start of the general election that Mitt Romney has a deficit with women voters -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: And so, while Romney said he doesn't necessarily have an abortion legislation that he is pushing, he did say that he would reinstate a policy banning non-government organizations from actually receiving federal funding if, indeed, they advocate abortions.
STEINHAUSER: It's true. You know, during the Republican primaries -- and a lot of social conservatives have always looked at Mitt Romney a little skeptically, so during the Republican primary, to see Mitt Romney take a hard stand on the social issues, including abortion, and you mentioned the Planned Parenthood storyline which was a big one.
As for this new story that just broke with the "Des Moines Register" article, an interview from yesterday, the Obama campaign is definitely pushing back and trying to say, hey, here is Mitt Romney flip-flopping again. The Obama campaign had a conference call just in the last hour and a half. This is Stephanie Cutter, she is the deputy campaign manager. Take a listen to what she said.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
STEPHANIE CUTTER, DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER, OBAMA CAMPAIGN: His severely conservative positions that got us through the GOP primary are still there, and they've been there for six years. Now, he's trying to cover them up because they know that they hurt women, seniors, and the middle class, and they hurt his chances for winning the presidency.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
STEINHAUSER: As you can imagine, Fred, the Romney campaign is pushing back against all this. Here's a statement from Andrea Stahl, she's the press secretary for Mitt Romney's presidential campaign. She said, "Mitt Romney is a proudly pro-life, and he will be a pro-life president." So, they're saying, no, that the quote that was pulled out of that interview was taken out of context and that, no, Mitt Romney remains committed to a pro-life philosophy -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: Well, let's see how different it was from his comments back in March when he talked about Planned Parenthood, in particular.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Here's what I say which is the federal government should not tax these people to pay for Planned Parenthood. And the idea of the federal government funding Planned Parenthood, we're going to say, no, we're going to stop that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: So, any real inconsistencies there?
STEINHAUSER: You know, at that time, Mitt Romney was fighting for the Republican nomination. He was going off, especially in March -- February and then March, against Rick Santorum, the former senator from Pennsylvania, well known and well respected among social conservatives. Mitt Romney has -- you know, the campaign, again, is saying, no, nothing has changed. The Obama campaign is trying to, you know, portray Mitt Romney as a flip flopper. And they also go back and point to, you know, his philosophy or his stance on abortion back when he was governor of Massachusetts which, of course, is different from now -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: All right. And there's also a pretty good chance the next president will select at least one new Supreme Court Justice. Right now, the court is evenly split on the issue of abortion. Is Romney downplaying the importance of abortion rights over the next four years?
STEINHAUSER: Good question because, yes, most likely the next president, be it President Obama or Mitt Romney, as the first-term president, is going to have at least one, maybe two, maybe more, Supreme Court picks to make. It is interesting here because, you know, besides what the campaigns are saying, you're seeing a lot of independent groups, like Planned Parenthood on one side and you're seeing social conservative groups on the other side, playing this issue up.
But when you look at the polls (INAUDIBLE) when you talk to average American voters, how much do social issues matter compared to the economy? Not so much but in a very close election, in a very close election, which it seems to be shaping up that way, these issues do matter, and that's why there's such emphasis on that -- this issue. That's why it is such an important topic -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks so much. Paul Steinhauser, we appreciate that.
All right, just one day to go before Paul Ryan and vice president Joe Biden meet in their first and only debate. And President Obama's lackluster performance last week may have raised the stakes now. The debate takes place tomorrow night in Danville, Kentucky. Ryan arrives in Kentucky later on today. The vice president is prepping at his home in Delaware. Once again, Mitt Romney is trying to lower expectations. Here's what he told Wolf Blitzer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Are you confident, governor, that Paul Ryan will take on Joe Biden Thursday night the way you took on the president?
ROMNEY: You know what, I don't know how Paul will deal with in debate. Obviously, the vice president has done, I don't know, 15 or 20 debates during his lifetime, experienced debater. This is, I think, Paul's first debate. I may be wrong. He may have done something in high school. I don't know. But It'll -- you know, it will be a new experience for Paul, but I'm sure he will do fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Dana Bash now joining us live. So, Dana, you know, we know Paul Ryan isn't the inexperienced debater Romney makes him out to be. You know, why is the campaign, you know, kind of playing this game again? I mean, this is somebody who spent seven terms on Congress. He knows what it is to speak in front of people and debate an issue.
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is all about psychological warfare at this point. Each camp is trying to psych out the other in terms of what the experience is, where they're -- where they're going to head, what they're not going to say, what they're going to say. But, you know, Mitt Romney is almost right when he said that maybe Paul Ryan debated in high school, because he started his political career so young, he was 27 maybe 28 at the time. I think we have some video.
He did do a debate during his first Congressional campaign back in 1998 when he beat the Democrat, Lydia Spotswood. There you see, it's a little grainy, it's a little old, but there you see a very young Paul Ryan having a debate. But to be fair, debating somebody in a Congressional district in Wisconsin is not even close to the same as debating on a vice presidential level in front of 10s of millions.
WHITFIELD: So, you've been covering the, you know, Ryan debate prep. Is there anything that we can glean from his strategy? What he's been focusing on in particular?
BASH: You know, he has been working extremely hard behind the scenes. Pretty much since he was picked to learn Mitt Romney's record, to bone up on it. He has been doing some -- what they all traditionally do now, some mock debates. Ted Olson, who was the solicitor general during the Bush -- last Bush administration. He is a very well known litigator, tough as nails litigator. He has been playing Joe Biden in these mock debates. And unlike the last debate, Fred, they are going to be sitting at a table kind of Sunday morning style.
So, they've been sitting around tables and hotel rooms, wherever they can, trying to game out this debate, and one other interesting tidbit, Ted Olson was picked, not just because of his abilities when it comes to debating and litigating, but also because of the generational difference. He's about Joe Biden's age. Paul Ryan is a generation plus younger than Joe Biden, so that's another thing that is going to be an interesting dynamic to watch.
WHITFIELD: Yes. All right. Dana Bash, thanks for that.
BASH: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: And you'll hear a firsthand account of what it's like to square off against Paul Ryan in a debate. Lydia Spotswood lost to Ryan when he first ran for Congress in 1998, and says that you shouldn't underestimate him. She'll be joining for Paul later on today live in the 3:00 p.m. Eastern hour.
The Obama campaign is out with an ad that brings up Mitt Romney's 47 percent comment again. Romney has tried to put the issue to rest once and for all. He initially stood by the hidden camera remark that 47 percent of Americans are victims and dependent on government, but last week he said it was wrong. Wolf Blitzer asked Romney about his reversal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: That that 47 percent comment that you made that's caused you a lot of grief, as you know. There's been a change if your position over these past few weeks. It went from -- you were initially saying once that tape came out that you -- that you weren't exactly elegantly stating your position. Later, and more recently, you said you were completely wrong. I'm curious, governor, how did that evolution in your thinking go on from the initial reaction once that tape came out to what you said the other day, that you were completely wrong?
ROMNEY: Well, what I'm saying is what the words were that came out were not what I meant. And what I mean, I think the people understand, is that if I'm president, I'll be president of 100 percent of the people. My whole campaign is about helping the middle class have rising incomes and more jobs and helping get people out of poverty into the middle class. That's what this whole campaign is about. The wealthy are doing fine right now, and they'll do fine, most likely, regardless of who is elected president. It's the middle class that's having a hard time under President Obama, and my campaign is about 100 percent of the American people.
And so, that -- that's -- that describes why -- you know, what was stated in the tape was not referring to what kind of president I would be or who I would be fighting for. Instead, it was talking about politics, and it just didn't come out the way I meant it.
BLITZER: If you had a do over, governor, and you mentioned 47 percent, what would you -- what should you have said about that 47 percent?
ROMNEY: Well, Wolf, as you know, I was talking about how do you get to 50.1 percent of the vote? I'd like to get 100 percent of the vote, but I figure that's not going to happen. So, I was trying to tell contributors how I get to 50.1 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Political observers were surprised when President Obama didn't bring up the issue during last week's debate. All right, stay with CNN for debate night in America. Vice president Biden and congressman Paul Ryan get their turn to tackle the issues facing the country. Watch the vice presidential debate tomorrow night. Our coverage begins at 7:00 Eastern on CNN and CNN.com as well.
All right. Here's what we're working on for this hour. In order to win the White House, Mitt Romney will have to do well in Ohio. And working moms are at the center of it all.
And the pharmacy at the center of the deadly fungal meningitis outbreak. Well, representatives wouldn't talk to CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta. They wouldn't even let him inside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: They wouldn't let us in the building, but behind the building, this is what it looks like. Over there, that's the NECC, the compounding facility. Back here, it's a recycling facility, essentially looks like a dump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Mitt Romney is campaigning in Ohio again today and with good reason. No Republican has ever won the White House without winning Ohio. The latest polls show the race is tightening with President Obama holding a four-point lead. But Romney needs the support of a key group of voters to win in Ohio and other battleground states. The group, working moms. The story from John King.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Governor Romney's back in play here in Ohio because he's improved his standing among independents and in the suburbs. But if there is one big warning sign here, it is from white women.
KING (voice-over): With the lights still on past midnight, another 20- hour day for Jessica Lundgren.
JESSICA LUNDGREN, UNDECIDED VOTER: I'm a single mom to a five-year-old little girl who's fantastic. I work full-time and go to school full- time. So many day usually starts around 4:45 in the morning and ends at 1:00 a.m. You do what you have to do in this economy.
KING: Her vote, she says, is for Jillian's future. She was leaning Mitt Romney until his own words pushed her back to undecided.
LUNDGREN: Speaking about, you know, the 47 percent and I can't really worry about them. You know, how can you put your faith and trust in a candidate that doesn't care about everybody? KING: To win Ohio and other key battlegrounds, Romney must overcome the doubts of working moms like Jessica. New CNN polling shows a post- debate Romney Ohio bounce, but still a narrow Obama lead. White women are the battleground within the battleground. Our new CNN poll shows 52 percent support the president now. That's up from the 47 percent he received here in 2008.
MARGIE OMERO, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: They're all worried about putting food on the table, raising kids who are happy and healthy, who are going to have a good future, are going to graduate into a economy where they can find a job.
KING: Democratic pollster Margie Omero has been studying so-called "Wal-mart moms" for several years.
OMERO: We've seen them prove to be swing voters over the years. In 2008, they voted for Obama. In early 2010, they were a little bit more divided. By November 2010, they were decidedly Republican.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan and Josh Mandel can count on your vote in this election?
KING: Like Sarah Minto, a 2008 Obama voter who is now a Romney Ohio volunteer.
SARAH MINTO, ROMNEY SUPPORTER: He let me down. I was very, very hopeful that he was going to be the guy to turn everything around in America and make everything better. And he just -- it's -- his words were empty.
KING: But Romney might have only himself to blame if more white middle class moms side with Obama this cycle.
SHARON WISEMAN, LEANS OBAMA: OK, let's pray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We thank you Lord Jesus, thank you for this food.
KING: Sharon Wiseman is a conservative Christian, a 2008 John McCain voter, who recently went from undecided to lean Obama, offended, she says, by Romney's 47 percent remark.
WISEMAN: I think I heard it on an Obama ad, and then I Googled it. And I feel like he's out of touch with what everybody's going through. I mean, Ohio is one of the hardest places hit.
KING: It hit home because the Wiseman family got some government help while husband Ray was unemployed for a bit.
WISEMAN: My reaction to what he said is, that's me. He's talking about me.
KING: Three teenagers and a husband who just found work two hours away shaped Sharon's politics. And while she promises to listen, the hour is getting late. Governor Romney, running out of time, to prove he understands her struggles. KING (on camera): Governor Romney hopes that 47 percent remark fades as the debates continue and the election nears. But some local Republicans aren't so sure and are arguing, among other things, for an Ann Romney TV ad aimed directly at those women with doubts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: And as for Paul Ryan, he has said time and time again that he's a proud deer hunter. Hear why hunters say they're excited at the prospect of support in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL RYAN (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Get to go hunting this year for deer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan has said many times that he's an avid hunter and proud of it. And he's gaining support from pro-gun rights hunters all over the country, in large part because of this comment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL RYAN (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hey, I'm a catholic deer hunter. I am happy to be clinging to my guns and my religion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Hunters haven't seen someone passionate about hunting in the White House since Dick Cheney. CNN Eatocracy editor Kat Kinsman joining me right now.
So, Kat, hunting isn't just a hobby for Ryan. He's spent four years as co-chairman of the Congressional Sportsman's Caucus. So why are hunters so excited about Ryan, and what are they hoping to get from him?
KAT KINSMAN, CNN EATOCRACY EDITOR: Well, I think a lot of avid hunters would be more than happy if we all forgot about Dick Cheney's hunting legacy. With Paul Ryan -- with Paul Ryan, you get somebody whose Secret Service name is "bow hunter." So he puts his money where his mouth is.
We ran a story earlier this week about how he takes all of the meat that he hunts and he makes sausage out of it. He's teaching his kids how to hunt responsibly. And what people are really hoping is to have somebody in that position who can affect change, who understands it culturally. That this isn't just -- he doesn't just hunt for sport. He hunts for sustenance and understands the land and weapon rights in a particular way that is very close to their -- to how they were raised.
WHITFIELD: And then, if particular, he's a real proponent of hunting on public lands. And what does that mean for I guess his constituents? What are they hearing when they hear him articulate that?
KINSMAN: Well, this is true. And he's used a little bit of charged language in this regard talking about starry-eyed activists who want to keep hunters off of public lands. And his notion is that if you're a hunter, you are so tied to the land, to respect and stewardship of the land, because you want to insure that you have enough to eat in future seasons. So what he is saying that the taxpayers are, you know, they're paying for the land. They might as well reap the benefits from it and also act as its protector. And it's really best left in the hands of people who have that close tie to nature.
WHITFIELD: And then I understand there was quite the buzz when he went shopping with his 10-year-old daughter for hunting gear. It was the first time that he was allowing her to hunt. What is being said in the blogosphere?
KINSMAN: Well, you know, people are having very, very strong reactions to it. Of course, if you don't come from a hunting culture, you're going to think there's a little girl out there killing animals and that can be upsetting. And I understand that.
But I can also tell you that all of the friends of mine who are hunters, who grew up hunting and who are teaching their own children to hunt are, again, so very tied to the land. They instill gun safety into their children from the second they're even allowed look at a rifle. And these children are tremendous respect for where their food comes from. They understand the cycle of life and death. They are not out there just hunting for sport for the most part, they're really using everything that they kill and they have a tremendous respect for the land. So there are definitely two sides to this. And, you know, a passionate response on both sides.
WHITFIELD: All right, Kat Kinsman, thanks so much for joining us from New York.
KINSMAN: Thanks for having me.
WHITFIELD: All right. And she is all over the airwaves, but will it help her husband get into the White House? We'll take a look at Ann Romney's latest push for the campaign.
And, don't forget, you can watch CNN live on your computer while you're at work. Head to cnn.com/tv.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: All right, "Good Morning American" has a new guest host. Ann Romney. Here's a snippet from her first day on the job.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is it about horse therapy or equine therapy?
ANN ROMNEY, WIFE OF MITT ROMNEY: You know, it's so extraordinary what the horses do for us. For me it's, again, it's balance. It's love. It's joy. What they're doing for so many other people right now. We have wounded vets coming home, and they're turning to horses for therapy. They're -- we have kids --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: At the same time that the wife of White House hopeful Mitt Romney is taking the morning airwaves by storm, she's also surging in popularity. A new ABC News/"Washington Post" poll shows she's more popular than her husband right now.
I want to bring in Lynn Sweet, Washington bureau chief for "The Chicago Sun Times." She's joining us via Skype right now.
The candidates' wives have long been considered a secret weapon in the fight for female voters in particular. How effective is Ann Romney as a campaign surrogate right now?
LYNN SWEET, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES: I think she's a terrific surrogate for Mitt Romney because she's able to tell a story that only she can tell, which is what is he like? What's the man behind the candidate? What does he like to do? And also everybody is always interested in the county's family and kids, and that's the potential for herself. There's no down side to having a campaign as much as she's up to.
WHITFIELD: Of course, everyone knows there's a long history of, you know, it is man who's vying for presidency has the ear, you know, of his wife and vice versa, whether it's Ann Romney, in this case, Michelle Obama and President Obama, and Nancy Reagan, Ronald Reagan. At the same time, you know, are we finding that Ann Romney is taking on kind of a greater role in helping to shape the image of her husband? Apparently and reportedly, she and one of their sons actually had like a real heart-to-heart with Mitt Romney and said there's got to be more of you that comes out. You've got to make this more personal.
SWEET: I know there was a story there, but that is one of the things that -- a role that a campaign spouse plays is the sense to be the truth teller. A spouse can't get fired. They're not going anywhere. I think that's what they and sons and daughters do in campaigns, and why they become very available. They are there because people can go to them.
In terms of Mrs. Romney's role, she's been around. She's been the first lady of Massachusetts. She -- you know, she has been involved in the campaign since day one. She probably has good insights on how to make her husband a more notable to the American people.
WHITFIELD: During the convention, we saw that she was trying to send that message, a very strong message, particularly to female voters out there. Take a listen as to what took place on that convention.
Oh, sorry. We don't have that pulled. Sorry about that. But you remember. You know, she was directly speaking to women.
(CROSSTALK)
SWEET: I will tell you, what was striking about that speech was for the first time you heard about the love story. She talked about her conversion to the Mormon faith. People, I think -- people's -- she shared it with us. I thought she did a terrific job in the role of lead-off speaker for the convention.
WHITFIELD: Then there's Michelle Obama. She's become very comfortable in settings with lots of people, small, you know, or giant audiences. She, too, has been considered kind of a secret weapon of President Obama. Do you think she will be used in a more aggressive, assertive way with now just 27 days before Election Day?
We lost our connection with Lynn Sweet there. But thank you for joining us, from the "Sun-Times," as long as she was able to, as long as that signal was in place.
Meantime, Joe Biden, Paul Ryan facing off tomorrow, and the stakes are higher than ever. Remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(APPLAUSE)
SARAH PALIN, (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR & FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Nice to meet you. Hey, can I call you Joe?
JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You certainly can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Taking place right now on Capitol Hill, the Oversight and Government Reform Committee exploring what kind of security measures were taken leading up to the attack in Benghazi, Libya, and the information that followed.
Let's listen in to the testimony right now.
REP. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, (D), WASHINGTON, D.C.: -- extremist elements, opportunistic elements taking advantage essentially of that protest. Now, the office of the director of National Intelligence issued a statement that indicated that it had been the source of the ambassador's statement. And I would like to read what the National Intelligence director said. "In the immediate aftermath, there was information that led us to assess that the attacks happened spontaneously earlier that day at our embassy in Cairo. We provided that initial assessment to executive branch officials and members of Congress who used that information to discuss the attack publically and to provide updates as they became available. Throughout our investigation, we continued to emphasize that information gathered was preliminary and evolving."
I know, by the way, that Mr. Nordstrom, you say in your testimony -- I'm looking at page two -- that the ferocity and the intensity of the attack was nothing that we had seen in Libya or that I had seen in my time -- my entire time in diplomatic service, indicating that this was something of a surprise attack. And I might say, suggesting that perhaps we should be about rethinking how to protect our outposts since it's clear we're not going to do it with lots of funds.
But what I read as the statement -- Ambassador Kennedy, could I ask you from the National Intelligence record -- could I ask you if you have any reason to doubt that Ambassador Rice relied on that information from the National Intelligence director?
AMB. PATRICK KENNEDY, UNDERSECRETARY FOR MANAGEMENT, STATE DEPARTMENT: When I came up to give a briefing earlier that week followed, you think, a day or two later by Ambassador Rice, both of us were relying on the same information. I said in my oral statement that if I or any other senior administration official, career or non-career, would have been on that television show, other than Susan Rice, we would have said the same thing because we were drawing on the intelligence information that was then available to us. This has been, as you all know, a very much evolving situation. What we knew that first week and that first weekend has evolved over time so we know much more now than we knew then.
HOLMES NORTON: Indeed, the national director issued a statement on the 28th, and he said, "As we learned more about the attack, we revised our national assessment to have information indicating it was a deliberate and organized terrorist attack organized terrorist attack carried out by extremists." So we see the evolving nature of it.
Look, I have to ask you about the -- the diplomats who were stationed in Cairo, who were accused by Governor Mitt Romney of sympathizing with the attackers, I would like to know how these diplomats, these personnel in Cairo reacted to that criticism.
KENNEDY: I'm afraid, Ms. Norton, I don't know. I have not had any conversations with the public affairs sector in the embassy in Cairo. But I can assure you from just my general knowledge of -- for 39 years in the Foreign Service, that there is not a Foreign Service officer or Foreign Service professional in our service who at all sympathizes or agrees with terrorists.
DARRELL ISSA, CHAIRMAN, HOUSE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE: Thank you.
We now go to the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Jordan.
Could you yield me 10 seconds for a quick question?
REP. JIM JORDAN, (R), OHIO: sure.
ISSA: Let's understand what you are saying here today is that one piece of intel, one piece of intel got you guys, yourself and Secretary Rice, or Ambassador Rice, to make a wrong statement five or six days later, and still be making it because Sunday is a long time after Tuesday. You are saying you got it wrong and you didn't know any better between the 11th and the 16th. Is that right?
KENNEDY: The information that was available --
(CROSSTALK)
ISSA: No, no --
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: The information that was available from the intelligence community to both myself when --
(CROSSTALK)
ISSA: Ambassador, Ambassador, Ambassador, you're a great witness historically. I asked you, did you have any contrary knowledge over those five days? That's all --
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: No, sir.
ISSA: OK. You didn't know any better for the next five days is your testimony.
Thank you, Mr. Jordan.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the consent that we give equal time to Mr. Cummings to respond and then give Mr. Jordan his full five minutes?
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS, (D), MARYLAND: Mr. Chairman, on that request --
(CROSSTALK)
ISSA: To be honest --
CUMMINGS: On a point of order.
ISSA: Are you requesting time?
CUMMINGS: On a point of order.
ISSA: I ask unanimous consent that the ranking member have 15 seconds. Without objection to order.
CUMMINGS: On a point of order.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: Objection.
CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, you just went over --
(CROSSTALK)
ISSA: You don't have to apologize to me.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: With all due respect, you just allowed Mr. Burton to go over by two minutes, and you are giving Mr. Cummings 15 seconds. You know what I mean? There's a little bit -- I'm sure you --
(CROSSTALK) ISSA: I understand. We have gone over both on witnesses and that and I will -- I'm going to pull it back into five minutes very solidly.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: OK, but just be fair --
ISSA: Before we get down to your part of the dais, I will get there. I promise.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: Thank you, sir.
ISSA: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED CONGRESSMAN: Mr. Chairman --
(CROSSTALK)
ISSA: Without objection, the ranking member is given equal time to ask a question.
CUMMINGS: I just want to go back to you, Ambassador. I think Mr. Norton and the chairman asked the question asked a very critical question. The chairman talked about the five days. Can you give us -- can you try to explain that to us that, you know, during that period of five days or whatever it was not being able to -- not having the information contrary to what Ms. Rice may have said. I understand it was based on intelligence but can you explain how that could happen to the public? In other words, where you all are still gathering information, was the State Department in the process of trying to get it right? I mean, what was going on there, do you know?
KENNEDY: Mr. Cummings, we were gathering information. We were closely coordinating with our colleagues in the intelligence community. We wanted to know what was happening more than anyone else because we also had dozens of other embassies that we are concerned about, including attacks on three or four other embassies, so we were looking for every piece of information that we could get from no matter what rationale and reasonable source to feed into our consideration of what steps we should take to protect U.S. diplomatic --
(CROSSTALK)
CUMMINGS: Just one last question, Chairman.
Is it unusual for you all to rely on the intelligence community for that kind of information?
KENNEDY: We have a great partnership, Mr. Cummings, with the intelligence community and we heavily depend upon the information they provide us just as they heavily depend upon information we provide them.
CUMMINGS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
ISSA: Thank you.
Now the gentleman from Ohio has exactly five minutes.
REP. JIM JORDAN, (R), OHIO: Thank you. I thank the chairman.
Lieutenant Colonel Wood, how many months were you in Libya?
LT. COL. ANDY WOOD, FORMER U.S. SECURITY TEAM LEADER IN LIBYA: I was in Libya approximately six months.
JORDAN: Mr. Nordstrom, how many months were you in Libya?
ERIC NORDSTROM, FORMER U.S DIPLOMATIC OFFICIAL: Approximately 10.
JORDAN: Ms. Lamb, how many times have you visited Libya -- how many times have you visited Libya, period?
CHARLENE LAMB, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: I have not.
JORDAN: None over the last 14, 15 months?
LAMB: No.
JORDAN: None since the security instances in Libya did you visit?
LAMB: No, sir.
JORDAN: Mr. Kennedy, how many times have you been to Libya?
KENNEDY: None.
JORDAN: OK.
Let me go to this process. We had numbers earlier from Mr. Nordstrom. You talked about three-fifths in Libya and then you talked about you wanted 12-plus, a back-up of six, and I want to know about this process.
And I'll go to Mr. Kennedy first.
In your testimony, Mr. Kennedy, you say, "The Department of State regularly assesses risk and allocation of resources for security, a process involves considered judgment of professionals in Washington and on the ground using the best information available."
So that process -- I want to know how the decision was made. Are you involved in that process, Ambassador Kennedy?
KENNEDY: In most normal occasions, I am not involved. There's an ongoing dialogue.
JORDAN: Where does that process employ to? Are people in the White House directly involved in that process? Is Secretary Clinton directly involved in that process?
KENNEDY: The process -- if there are disagreements between the post in the field and the diplomatic --
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Would you classify what took place here as a disagreement based on what Mr. Nordstrom and Mr. Wood have testified to and what Ms. Lamb has said?
KENNEDY: No, sir. I would --
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: This didn't reach a disagreement level?
KENNEDY: I would describe it as a dialogue between the post and diplomatic security --
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: This didn't reach a level where you needed weigh in or someone higher need weigh in?
KENNEDY: No, sir, it did not.
JORDAN: Anyone at the National Security Council to weigh in there?
KENNEDY: No, sir, it did not.
JORDAN: OK. Let me turn to you then, Mr. Nordstrom.
I want to know, in the e-mail that Congressman Chaffetz referenced earlier-- the interview you had with Congressman Chaffetz and Chairman Issa back on October 1st -- you state, "This is not an environment where posts should be directed to normalize operations and reduce security resources in accordance with artificial timelines." Yet, today, in your testimony, it was a little different tenor, as I think the ranking member brought out. You mentioned at one point the answer should not be to operate from a bunker. So I want to ask you these questions. First of all, since that interview with Chairman Issa and Chairman Chaffetz, staff has indicated they've tried to contact you six different times via telephone. You have not responded. Is there a reason you did not respond to those telephone calls?
NORDSTROM: That's correct.
JORDAN: No, it's correct you didn't respond. Is there a reason?
NORDSTROM: I had been advised by the Department of State that all --
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Who specifically advised you to do that?
NORDSTROM: Our Legislative Affairs Office.
JORDAN: And did they tell you where that came from? Did Ms. Lamb specifically advise you not to talk? NORDSTROM: No, she did not, sir.
JORDAN: Did Ambassador Kennedy tell you not to?
NORDSTROM: No, he did not.
JORDAN: Did Secretary of State Clinton tell you to do that?
NORDSTROM: No, she did not.
JORDAN: So who was the person that told you not to talk to our staff after you gave this interview where you gave us this information.
NORDSTROM: I was advised by the Assistant Secretary Boswell's office --
JORDAN: OK.
NORDSTROM: -- his staff, that all requests for information and documents would need to be -- would need to be vetted or routed through that office.
JORDAN: Did those same individuals help you prepare for today's testimony.
NORDSTROM: In the sense of providing general guideline on how --
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Did they tell you they wanted to look it over before you came to the committee and gave it today?
NORDSTROM: Of course.
JORDAN: Did they write it for you?
NORDSTROM: No, they did not.
JORDAN: Ms. Lamb, I want to go back to -- I want to go back to this decision making process. So is it customary to not listen as -- well, I would characterize it -- listen as intently as I think you should have to the guys in the field and what they wanted to have happen when they requested the 12-plus the six backup?
LAMB: Yes, sir. I listened intently to those conversations.
JORDAN: OK.
Mr. Wood, let me get -- bring you into the conversation here. I want your comments on that specifically the number you wanted to add in Libya plus the additional six.
WOOD: We agreed to the numbers between Eric and I and put forth those numbers. We felt great frustration in the fact that those demands were ignored or, in some cases, just never met. JORDAN: So the process I was earlier referencing when talking -- asking Mr. -- Ambassador Kennedy, tell me who you felt was involved in that process? Who were the individuals in Washington? You were the folks on the ground at post. Who were the folks at Washington in that process?
WOOD: I heard Eric Nordstrom refer to Ms. Lamb as far as the deciding authority on providing those additional resources.
JORDAN: Experienced professionals on the ground in Washington. Who are the other experienced professionals in Washington who help make that decision?
WOOD: I wouldn't know the answer to that.
JORDAN: Mr. Nordstrom, who else?
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Because all we got right now, we know the secretary of state wasn't. We know the White House wasn't. We know Ambassador Kennedy wasn't. Somebody had to decide. Someone in Washington was telling you guys you couldn't get what you wanted. So was it just Ms. Lamb, or were there other people involved in this process, Mr. Nordstrom?
NORDSTROM: Again, I can't speculate in term of who was. The person I dealt with was our regional director, Jim Bachagalupo (ph), and then Ms. Lamb.
JORDAN: OK. Same concerns.
(CROSSTALK)
NORDSTROM: The ambassador in the DCM. And if I could just add --
(CROSSTALK)
NORDSTROM: -- raised the same concerns. The DSM met with (INAUDIBLE) also in February, raised the same concerns in person. And it is my understanding that Ambassador Kretz (ph) made additional phone calls. All of us at post were in sync that we wanted these resources.
ISSA: JORDAN: Anyone that needs to answer that question, but the gentleman's time has expired.
Ms. Lamb?
On behalf of Ms. Lamb, Ambassador Kennedy?
(CROSSTALK)
ISSA: Briefly, please.
KENNEDY: Absolutely, Mr. Chairman.
I was asked on a different question. I was asked whether I was going to request a third extension of the SST. I consulted with my colleagues. And because our colleagues had put together --
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: That's not what you said earlier. You said you weren't involved and now you're telling me you are. Which is it?
KENNEDY: You asked a specific question --
(CROSSTALK)
ISSA: This question will be for the next round for both of you.
With that, we recognize the gentleman from Ohio, also, Mr. Kucinich.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, (D), OHIO: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy has testified today that U.S. interests and values are at stake in Libya and that the U.S. is better off because we went to Benghazi. Really? You'd think that after 10 years in Iraq and 11 years in Afghanistan that our country -- the U.S. would have learned the consequences and limits of interventionism. You would think --
WHITFIELD: All right. On Capitol Hill, you're listening to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. And you and heard earlier Representative Jim Jordan trying to get to the bottom of who would either approve or deny any kind of request for additional security at the U.S. consulate there in Benghazi. The questions going back and forth now over what was known leading up to the attack, at the U.S. consulate, which led to the deaths of four people, including the U.S. ambassador, and what was the story following.
We're going to continue to watch the hearing here, take a short break for now. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back. We're keeping a close eye on a horrible accident that took place in south Florida, in Doral, Florida, in particular. It looks like a parking garage that was under construction has pancaked. We understand according to authorities one person has died, two people are still trapped. We understand that four people were taken to a local hospital and three others have been treated. It is unclear exactly what took place here. All we can tell you is that this was a construction site. We do understand according to authorities all those involved, injured, are construction workers who were on the site. We'll continue to keep a close watch and give you details as we learn them.
Meantime, 12 people are dead and another 125 sick in a growing meningitis outbreak affecting much of the country. At the center of it all, contaminated steroid injections that 13,000 people may have received. The FDA does not have the authority to regulate the authorities like the one linked to this contamination.
CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, went to Massachusetts for answers. And what he found is a bit disturbing. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: What it all boils down to is this -- how could it have all happened in the first place? I find it remarkably difficult to get any information whatsoever.
In fact, we drove about 40 miles outside of Boston to Massachusetts to the home of the owner and operator of the compounding facility. Both he and his wife work there in the Department of Pharmacy. We wanted to ask them some simple questions but neither one of them would come to the door.
(voice-over): So we drove 25 miles to Framingham, Massachusetts. This is the NEEC, the compounding facility at the heart of the outbreak. We just wanted some answers.
(on camera): We're with CNN. We're trying to get a hold of somebody to talk to you about what has been going on here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, I have to ask you guys to leave the property.
GUPTA: They literally are telling us to leave the parking lot, not even be here. We know people from the FDA are inside. A lot of cars in the parking lot. People are working here in some capacity. But this is another example of just how ridiculous it has been to try and get any information whatsoever.
They wouldn't let us in the building, but behind the building, this is what it looks like. Over there, that's the NEEC, the compounding facility. Back here, it is a recycling facility. Essentially, looks like a dump. Walking around here, people told us that there has been this relationship between the recycling facility and NEEC for some time. Doing a little bit of the digging, we realized that they're, in fact, owned by the same people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Sanjay Gupta joining us now from our Boston bureau.
Sanjay, a facility that produces mass quantities of drugs for humans also shares the property with a garbage dump? Is that what we're seeing in the back?
GUPTA: Yes. This is a -- they call it a recycling facility and the center is a compounding center. They don't make the drugs per se, but to your point, they mix medications together and for human use. It was stunning to us as well that this garbage dump would be so close to the building. This particular facility is not accredited, the NEEC. It doesn't have to be accredited under the state of Massachusetts law. There are many facilities that are not accredited. But one of the things they do as part of the accreditation process is look at the facilities, look at the machinery and things like this -- Fredricka?
WHITFIELD: What is the difference between the compounding pharmacy and a regular pharmacy that people, you know, know to be in their neighborhood, on the corner, et cetera?
GUPTA: Right. Well, you know, for a long time, the whole notion of compounding medications, you know, that was something that was done by local pharmacies, particular medication, you needed in smaller doses or need it mixed with another medication. Sometimes kids would get it flavored so it wouldn't taste as bad. As you sort of allude to, Fredricka, that was don't locally. The compounding centers have gotten larger and larger over time and now you have these sorts of centers which made 17,000 -- more than 17,000 doses of this particular steroid mixture. So what it started of with many years ago, what it turned into, Fredricka, are two very different things.
WHITFIELD: So more than 13,000 people have received injections from this particular facility. What should they do now if they know indeed that their supply came from that place?
GUPTA: Yes, well, finding out, first of all, is the first step as you point out. And there is good ways to do that. Contact the clinic or the doctor. I was just on CDC.gov, and there is a good way, a tracker, to find out if you in fact received any of these contaminated medications.
And if you have, then the important thing is to make sure that if you're developing any symptoms, you go to your doctor right away. Symptoms can take some time to develop and this is important. It can take up to 28 days, a month or so for symptoms to develop. You may think that you're out of the -- in the clear, and hopefully you are, but if you get sick a month late, still get it checked out.
WHITFIELD: All right. Sanjay Gupta from Boston. Thank you so much. Appreciate that.
We're going to continue to watch, keep close tabs on that investigation throughout the afternoon.
I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
Brooke Baldwin up next in the NEWSROOM.
