Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Police: Salon Shooter is Dead; Violent Chaos in Beirut; Obama, Romney Debate Monday; Close Race Means Crucial Third Debate; Critics Question Use of Informants; Baseball Fall Season; Lance Armstrong's Career Crash
Aired October 21, 2012 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Have a great week, Martin. Thank you very much.
Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.
Here's what's happening:
A man started shooting inside a hair and nail salon today just outside Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Here's a shopping center where it happened, seven people were shot. Police say three of those people are dead.
They believe that this man is their shooter right there. Police say they know where he lives. They have his car. They're trying to figure it all out. So, stay right there. More details and a live report just moments away here on CNN.
Violent protests erupted in Beirut today after the funeral of Lebanon's assassinated intelligence chief.
General Wissam al Hassan was killed on broad daylight in a car bombing on Friday. He was critical of Syria's regime. Some protesters are blaming Syria for the assassination and also pointing fingers at Lebanon's government which is linked to Syrian ally, Hezbollah. Lebanese prime minister, Syria's government and Hezbollah have condemned the assassination.
Much more ahead from Beirut in this broadcast.
At least 85 people were killed in Syria today, including five children and five women. Syria's bloody civil war is more than 18 months old. The U.N. Arab League envoy met with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad today in Damascus. The envoy is trying to broker a ceasefire in Syria before an important Muslim holiday begins on Friday.
It is debate prep Sunday for President Obama and for Mitt Romney, as we're just one day away from the third and final presidential debate. Tomorrow night, it's all about foreign policy. Candidates are likely to square off over the administration's handling of the attacks in Benghazi and conflicting reports over nuclear talks with Iran. A live coverage from Boca Raton, Florida, begins Monday night at 7:00 Eastern on CNN.
Former United States Senator George McGovern has died. His family made the announcement today, saying McGovern died before dawn at a hospice in South Dakota.
A decorated bomber pilot in World War II, McGovern was elected to the House in the '50s, the 1950s, and then to the Senate in the 1960s. He was the 1972 Democratic nominee for president. He lost to Richard Nixon. George McGovern was 90.
Lance Armstrong, still a rock star to people who support the Livestrong organization. He spoke to these charity cyclists today in Texas, calling the past few weeks interesting and at times very difficult. A growing doping scandal forced Armstrong to give up chairmanship of Livestrong and a bunch of his big sponsors dropped him too.
Police are on a manhunt in west -- west of Milwaukee right now and they are looking for a killer. This is the place, Brookfield, Wisconsin. Witnesses say a man walked into a nail and hair salon, near shopping mall and started shooting.
People are hurt. Police believe at least three people were killed, at least three, maybe more. This is a very active investigation right now.
Our national correspondent Susan Candiotti is on it.
Fast-moving developments. What do we know about the suspect?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don, a terrible tragedy this morning. We know that this man is 45 years old. His name is Radcliffe Haughton.
Police say that they have been trying to locate him ever since this terrible tragic shooting began. Shortly after that nail and hair salon was scheduled to open at about 11:00 local time there, about noon Eastern Time, law enforcement officials tell us the shooting began when a gunman walked into that salon, an employee saw someone with a gun and said something to the effect of, look, if you're going to rob us, rob us, and that's what the person started firing.
Police say they brought a bomb squad to the scene because they found an improvised explosive device, some kind of a homemade bomb in that salon which involves two stories. And this is what they said about trying to clear that particular area.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF DANIEL TASHAUS, BROOKFIELD, WISCONSIN POLICE DEPARTMENT: In the process of clearing that building, we believe we have identified what is being described as an improvised explosive device, which is also hampering our clearing of that building. Milwaukee -- I believe the city of Milwaukee bomb squad is here and is assisting us in that endeavor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: Now, authorities have been at that man's house ever since. They have been searching it, searching it, and searching it some more. And we can tell you this, Don: we know that on October 8th of this month, according to court papers, that a restraining order was taken out against the suspected shooter in this case. It doesn't list who the petitioner is, but there are reports that he was estranged from his wife. It is called a domestic restraining order. We can tell you that.
And so -- and in fact, I also heard from a law enforcement official they believe this might have something to do with a domestic problem of some kind, Don.
LEMON: Susan, and also, I want to clear something up. Some of the affiliates are reporting at least that this gunman may be dead inside the salon. No confirmation on that at this point?
CANDIOTTI: We're expecting a news conference from the police chief any time now to see whether he will confirm those reports that in fact the suspect may indeed be dead and possibly inside his house.
LEMON: Susan Candiotti, we look forward to that. Thank you very much. Appreciate your reporting.
Beirut is in chaos after the funeral for the nation's intelligence chief assassinated in broad daylight two days ago. Angry crowds are demanding the resignation of Lebanon's prime minister, a billionaire with links to Syria and ally Hezbollah.
Mohammed Jamjoom has more now from Beirut.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MOHAMMED JAMJOOM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The tensions that began at the funeral have completely boiled over. This angry crowd is trying to break through barriers here. They are demanding the resignation of the prime minister, trying to march to the prime minister's office over here.
Now, they are engaging in clashes with police security forces, tear gas is being deployed.
(GUNFIRE)
(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
JAMJOOM: They are demanding the resignation of Prime Minister Najib Mikati. We heard this rhetoric at the funeral today. That's what has driven most of these people out into the streets, marching on to the government offices, confronting the security forces.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Bashar al Assad's government, we don't want such a thing. We don't want our prime minister to be our leader hiding Bashar's crimes. They're responsible for Wissam al- Hassan's blood.
JAMJOOM: And many people here are wondering if this is a harbinger of things to come here in Lebanon. Mohammed Jamjoom, CNN, Beirut.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right. Mohammed, thank you very much.
A terror plot called "9/11 (2)" was disrupted by Jordan's intelligence department. The source told CNN the U.S. embassy in Amman appeared to be among the targets. Jordan's government spokesman says 11 suspects associated with al Qaeda's ideology are in custody, and all suspects are Jordanian citizens who moved in and out of Syria. Other targets reportedly included shopping centers, neighborhoods, and diplomats.
The name "9/11 (2)" suggests the plot was set for November 9th, which is the seventh anniversary of the last al Qaeda attack in Jordan.
The candidates for president hours away from going at it in one final debate. This is with a full focus on foreign policy.
Plus, amid reports of his demise, new information about Cuba's Fidel Castro.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Sixteen more days, 16 more days, Americans will decide who their next president's going to be. And in just a matter of hours, both candidates will debate each other for the third and final time.
President Obama spent the day at Camp David preparing. Mitt Romney, Boca Raton, Florida, where the debate will be held tomorrow night.
He took a little time off from the preparations to toss a coin in a flag football game in the beach. That's kind indicative of how the election is going -- at this point, it's still anybody's game.
Political director Mark Preston joins us now from Boca -- in Boca -- Boca Raton, Florida.
So, Mark, this debate is on foreign policy. I want to start with some mixed messages about Iran and the U.S. returning to the negotiating table to talk about Iran's nuclear program. What do you know about that? What's the latest on that?
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, the latest right now, Don, is the fact that "The New York Times" has a story. They published it yesterday afternoon, yesterday afternoon that says that, in fact, the United States and Iran have agreed in principle to have a discussion, a one-on-one discussion after the election, about Iran's nuclear capabilities.
Now, I have to tell you the administration has said that is not true, that there is no agreement for the administration to meet with Iranian leaders after the election.
Lindsey Graham, who's one of the top surrogates for Mitt Romney, was on "FOX News Sunday" and he did address the issue this morning. Let's hear what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I think the Iranians are trying to take advantage of our election cycle to continue to talk. As we talk with the Iranians, whether it's bilaterally or unilaterally, they continue to enrich.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PRESTON: And there you have Lindsey Graham this morning, talking about this story, about whether there will be one-on-one negotiations between the administration and Iranian officials after the election. Mitt Romney was asked this question today. He chose not to answer it.
But as you said, Don, this is all about foreign policy, or maybe it's not. Tomorrow night's debate certainly will be centered on that. They'll be talking about Israel and Iran. They'll be talking about Afghanistan and Pakistan. They'll be talking about China.
But, Don, they will also be talking about the economy. That's the number one issue in this election.
LEMON: Yes, that is the number one issue in this election. Foreign policy is like -- I think it's like 4 percent people think it's a priority when it comes to who decide -- who they're going to vote for.
How important is this next debate, Mark? Because traditionally, debates don't make much of a difference, but after the president's performance in the first debate, he lost momentum, and now Mitt Romney is gaining momentum.
PRESTON: Not only did he lose momentum nationally, but he's lost momentum in battle ground states, or several of battleground states right now.
Tomorrow night is the most important night of the election -- we say that every week, Don. I know we sound like a broken record. But the fact of the matter, that is true. Whoever turns in a strong performance tomorrow night might be able to persuade some of the undecided voters to actually support them when it comes to voting in November.
As you said, 16 days from today, 15 days from tomorrow, very little time to change people's minds. This will be seen by tens of millions of people all across the country. This is opportunity for someone to try to break -- Don.
LEMON: Thank you, Mr. Preston. Appreciate it.
CNN is your choice for the third and final presidential debate. And as mentioned, the focus will be on foreign policy. Live coverage from Boca Raton, Florida, begins Monday, 7:00 Eastern.
More politics now. CNN contributors L.Z. Granderson and Will Cain are here to talk about the debate. OK, guys. The focus is on foreign policy. I find it interesting since foreign policy barely registers for most Americans and probably doesn't sway their vote. I think like 4 percent of people say it's a priority for them, 58 percent of people say that it's -- you know, that the economy is the higher thing here for them.
Here's -- I want you to look at this poll here. Do we put the numbers up? There it is -- 4 percent foreign policy. The economy, 59 percent. Domestic and social issues are 33 percent.
So, L.Z., are Republicans teeing up a Carter/Reagan 1979 Iran hostage crisis to slow the momentum of a president who is strong on foreign policy? I mean, he brought on the troops, won the Nobel Prize, blah, blah, blah, bin Laden -- is that what's happening here?
L.Z. GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I don't se how they can do that because of the things you talked about. You know, look, Jimmy Carter, he's a great man. I love him as on a post-president. But he was horrible as a president, particularly on foreign policy issues.
I don't think there's anything you can hang on this president's head to look as if he's nearly as bad as the way Jimmy Carter handled the hostage situation. In fact, if anything, talking about foreign policy only highlights how little is on the other side.
LEMON: Yes. And when we were putting this segment together, I said, as I'm asking L.Z., that question, I can see Will Cain's face, and you had the exact reaction that I thought, Will. So, go ahead.
WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: What was that reaction? I was -- I'm sorry. The smile was about the Nobel Peace Prize granted before you ever take office. That's what my smile was about. You know, your poll, 4 percent of Americans want to day attention to or think foreign policy should be a priority.
I think it was Charles Krauthammer once said, we view the presidency as the top legislative position. And appropriately, we view it as that. When presidencies are defined by that which they cannot predict, that which they don't have control over, or limited control over. We know that's 9/11 for George W. Bush, for financial crisis hitting right before President Barack Obama's election.
So when those unexpected moments come, they often come in the form of foreign policy. Foreign policy is truthfully the one thing the president has sole province over, virtually sole province over. It's his realm.
Legislation, he deals with two other bodies, you know, the Senate and House. So, we shouldn't be giving foreign policy short shrift. We never give it attention until it's absolutely in our face.
LEMON: OK. So, listen, a lot has been made over the situation in Libya, as you called it. You said it was a Libya crisis. And there are many people who are saying, many people on the left who are saying that Republicans are politicizing it, and Republicans on the right are saying, listen, the White House and administration are being disingenuous about it.
I think Matthew Dowd has a very interesting comment that he made this morning. I want you guys to listen and we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEW DOWD, ABC NEWS POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: What Candy Crowley did I actually thought was laudable, because what happens in this whole thing is the truth becomes a casualty and nobody's supposed to say what actually happened, we're supposed to make accusations back and forth to each other and nobody's supposed to correct and say, by the way, that's not true. I actually thought what Candy Crowley did, and I hope we tend to do more of that in this discourse. But I think in the course of this, Mitt Romney does not want to be talking about Libya.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That wasn't the sound bite that I wanted but it's still about Libya.
GRANDERSON: That's pretty good for me.
CAIN: Good, because I have a lot of disagreement with Matthew Dowd about that.
LEMON: Go ahead, go ahead.
CAIN: Yes. Here's the deal. L.Z. and I have appeared about this together talking about Libya. I'll be interested to see if his opinion has changed.
But I am disappointed in the debate about Libya and here's why: Matthew Dowd's talking about the truth, but he's talking about a superficial truth, about what was said when, when the word terror was uttered, was it in the Rose Garden or was it the day after, or was it two weeks later.
The point is, when the word "terror" was uttered is strictly a campaign issue. It's not an issue of accountability to the American people. The question needs to be answered has yet to be answered, is why Susan Rice and Jay Carney said it was attributed to a video and spontaneous attack arising out of that video.
There may be answers, Don. There may be answers. It may be the CIA told them that's what they thought. We have a report on Friday, but that conflicts with the State Department report.
The bottom line is that question hasn't been answered. Why the American people were told something that wasn't true?
LEMON: Does it have to be -- does it have to be one, it can't be both?
CAIN: What do you mean? LEMON: It can't be because of a video and it can't be because there was something that was planned? I mean, is it mutually exclusive? It could be a number of things that cause it.
CAIN: I don't see -- I don't know if that's possible, Don. Right now, I mean, I know that these were planned terrorist attacks. These were not arisen out of spontaneous attacks, some protest.
By the way, there was no protest. We know there wasn't a protest, not even in response to a video.
The point is this -- we don't know the truth as the American people. And debating when terror was uttered is not helping us understand the truth. We didn't know it for two weeks.
LEMON: Go ahead, L.Z.
GRANDERSON: Well, I think what is important that came out of that exchange was that seeing Romney in that situation, is a microcosm of his entire political life. And that is, he's willing to say or do anything to win the presidency.
I agree with you, the important questions have not been asked nor they have been answered. But in that moment, when Mitt Romney was forced to be corrected by the moderator, Candy, what you saw was simply what we've been seeing over and over and over again, which is Mitt Romney lying. Just saying whatever he needs to say in front of whoever's in front of him at the time to get people to vote for him.
What happened in that moment allowed people to go, you know what? It isn't about media spin. This guy really does say whatever he needs to in those moments.
LEMON: OK. That's going to have to be the last word. I wanted it to be a longer segment but we have breaking news. We're going to get back to you guys. You guys will be live throughout the hour here on CNN. We'll pick up this talk where we left off. So, thanks for now.
And this just in to CNN: the police chief from Brookfield, Wisconsin, has just confirmed that the man suspected in the shooting today inside a hair and nail salon outside Milwaukee, Wisconsin, has died.
Radcliffe Haughton is the name of that suspect. The police chief says investigators believed he died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Seven were shot, police say. Three of those people of now dead. Much more on this story this hour and next hour here on CNN.
What does it take to become a saint? How about curing a boy from flesh-eating bacteria? A major milestone and a first for Native Americans. That story is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Don't forget. You can stay connected. You can watch CNN live on your computer. You can do it from work. Just go to CNN.com/TV.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: This next story is about something that's never happened before. Pope Benedict XVI canonized the first Native American saint at St. Peter's Basilica today.
Lily of the Mohawks lived in the 17th century. She's credited with the miraculous recovery of an American boy from a flesh-eating bacteria in 2006 when his family prayed to her. Her supporters are thrilled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALMA RANSOM, FORMER CHIEF, ST. REGIS MOHAWK TRIBE: Kateri Tekakwitha, in her time, she had a tradition where she knew her creator very well. And all the rules that go with it -- loving and respected the elders, loving like the Earth as in environment. She had all these things and appreciation of all of God's creation.
When she became Catholic, the creator, God, became Jesus that she loved until she died. And she laid a wonderful example for us to be able to live in both cultures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The pope named six other new saints, including a German-born woman who emigrated to Hawaii to help lepers.
To Cuba where speculation about Fidel Castro's health has been running rampant for years. But the rumor mill has been running into overdrive the past few weeks after the former Cuban leader failed to publicly congratulate his closest ally Hugo Chavez on his election victory. Now a newly released picture may put that to rest.
Patrick Oppmann joins us now live from Havana with the details.
What do you know, Patrick?
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Don. And as always, rumors of Fidel Castro's demise at least for the moment is premature. As you said, the rumor mill was in overdrive.
It's been seven months since we've seen any pictures of Fidel Castro. In June, his regular newspaper column suddenly stopped without any explanation. And people just started to talk and talk and talk until it was becoming a worldwide social media phenomenon.
Is Fidel Castro dead? Is he ailing? It turns out, none of the above.
The Venezuela vice president who happened to be in Havana surprised reporters today with the knowledge he'd not only seen Fidel Castro, but Fidel Castro was apparently doing great. It was something that hotel workers at a hotel where a party was taking place confirmed to us. We saw photos, apparently there are many other photos of a smiling Fidel Castro. Fidel Castro, one of the women in that photos is actually his wife, someone we really see here.
And as we talk to these hotel workers, this Venezuelan ex-vice president, we got an image very different from what the rumor mill is saying, Don. Apparently Fidel Castro, for a man of 86, a man who's in serious health problems in recent years, is doing well, is going to be with us a little bit longer. Apparently those obituaries not ready to run just yet, Don.
LEMON: All right, Patrick Oppmann. And I understand you spoke to people concerning this. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIAS JAUA, FORMER VENEZUELAN VICE PRESIDENT (through translator): Commandant Fidel was kind enough to meet with us. Yesterday, we spoke for about five hours, about agriculture, history, and international politics. Fidel is doing very well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And that was a spokesman confirming what you said. Thank you, Patrick Oppmann. We appreciate you joining us from Havana.
Remembering a staunch liberal who came from Republican roots, and Amtrak train jumps the tracks. The latest on the injuries.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Coming up on just half past the hour, about a minute away. We'll give you the headlines.
Just confirmed to CNN, the man police believe opened fire inside a nail and hair salon this morning is dead. The suspect, Radcliffe Haughton, 45 years old. Police identified him shortly after witnesses say he opened fire with a handgun just as a salon was opening.
We're told seven people were wounded, at least three of them are reported dead. Details still fluid and I'll tell you more as we confirm them right here on CNN.
An Amtrak train derailed outside Chicago this morning. Twelve people were hurt. The train left Chicago for Pontiac, Michigan, when it lost contact with the trucks. Luckily, it never took over. None of the injuries were serious.
And United States Senator George McGovern has died. His family made the announcement today, saying McGovern died before dawn at a hospice in South Dakota. A decorated bomber pilot in World War II, McGovern was elected to the House in the 1950s, and then to the Senate in the 1960s.
He was the 1972 Democratic nominee for president. He lost to Richard Nixon. George McGovern was 90.
CNN contributors L.Z. Granderson and Will Cain are back now to talk more about politics. Hey, guys, let's pick up where we left off. We're having an interesting conversation about Libya. Let's listen to this, Matthew Dowd, again this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEW DOWD, ABC NEWS POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: But I think -- let me just say one thing to put this Benghazi thing in context. Of, like, why don't we have answers and where are they? I worked for President Bush. We had a president in an administration for years, made an argument about weapons of mass destruction. For years. And now we've lost thousands of lives over in Iraq based on a false assumption, and all of it.
This is not -- it wasn't two weeks, this was months and months and months of a conversation where we never got the right answer to this, and we still today, nobody in the administration at a high enough level --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the point is that their intelligence gathering is bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Will?
WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes?
LEMON: For people who are not partisan, who are not way far on the left or way far on the right, Matthew Dowd makes a lot of sense because we are still trying to figure out where the weapons of mass destruction are years after 9/11. Years after the invasion in Iraq. And then two weeks after the sad, horrific thing that happened in Benghazi, and also in Egypt, we're wanting all of the answers in just a couple of weeks? What gives here? It does seem to be politicized. He makes sense.
CAIN: Well, I don't -- I don't think, Don -- now, in our last conversation nor the point I'm about to make you here, I'm making you any political point. I'm actually just making a point that I think the American people deserve to hear an answer to. I have two for you.
Just because you can point out a failure from a previous administration doesn't excuse a failure in a current administration.
LEMON: But his point was --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And he says both sides do it, and I agree. And in this instance it happens to be the right who's doing it. He is saying that no one steps back and takes a breath and waits for information. Of course people deserve to have answers but why would you --
CAIN: Bringing me to my --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: To make someone to have all of the answers in a week or two when --
CAIN: Well --
LEMON: When your very own party did not expect someone in your own party to have it in years, and still has not expected anyone --
CAIN: Don't do the --
LEMON: Still has not expected the Bush administration to come up with an answer for that.
CAIN: I got it. I got it. Don't do the party thing, Don, because I'm not -- I'm not defending a party nor indicting a party. I'm indicting a process and a couple of statements because that brings me to my second point now to answer your question. And that is I'm not demanding answers. I'm demanding you tell me, Obama administration, Jay Carney, Susan Rice, why you tell me you did have an affirmative answer.
You didn't come out and tell me you don't know. Instead you told me you did have an answer. You said it was a spontaneous attack in response to a video. And don't act like that didn't have a cost, by the way. They paraded a man out on a perp walk who created some silly video so that every jihadi in the world knows not only who he is but where he lived. That has a cost.
I am asking them to explain to me, not why they did not have the answers, but why they did.
LEMON: OK. That -- listen, that makes absolutely sense but you can't expect to have all the answers in just a matter of moments.
CAIN: I don't think I said that.
LEMON: Yes. OK. All right, go ahead, L.Z.
L.Z. GRANDERSON, SENIOR WRITER, ESPN: Don, if I will, I don't see how you can't look at the situation and see both parties are hugely at fault. President Obama, his administration, they need to be more thoughtful in how they actually addressed this issue and addressed this tragedy. But we cannot pretend as if Romney, whose administration -- whose future administration called foreign policy a distraction, who on video said that he didn't care and was going to kick this ball down the road.
We can't pretend either that all of a sudden his excitement about foreign policy isn't also motivated by politics. And in this situation we need to call both men out, we need to call both of their advisers out on this, and the American people, as Will said, deserve to know the truth.
LEMON: Very good. Very well put. Thank you both. Let's move on now and talk about the electoral votes and the popular votes. Are we headed for a 2001 again where one person wins the popular vote and the other person wins the electoral votes and then we are up all night for weeks and weeks and weeks trying to figure out who the actual president is? Will?
CAIN: I'm going to let L.Z. -- me, I'd rather you've gone to L.Z. on that.
(LAUGHTER)
GRANDERSON: I'll go ahead and jump in first and say that, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
CAIN: Please. Take it away.
GRANDERSON: You know, by some reason -- if they do end up tied for some reason, you know, the process seems to suggest that Congress will be the deciding body. And I can't think of anything more horrific than having one of the worst congresses in the history of this country deciding who's going to be president. Especially giving all of the conversation we've heard about voter suppression, now we're understanding that the Romney family may have investments in voting machines.
I tell you what, if you thought it got ugly in 2000, let this election come down to, you know, a minute number or worse yet have the House decide that Romney's president. This is going to be ugly, we do not want 269-269.
LEMON: Will, why do you want to stay out of this conversation?
CAIN: Because I don't -- because I don't know. I mean, I mean -- look, neither does L.Z., none of us know. 269-269, how likely is that, I would guess it's about as likely as a hole in one. I mean it's possible, but I don't think it's going to happen. And L.Z. is right, if it's 269-269, the House of Representatives would decide the outcome, that's something L.Z. would want to see happen, I'm quite sure of that.
(CROSSTALK)
GRANDERSON: That's something you don't want to see happen, I'm sure.
CAIN: No, I don't, for the country, you're exactly right. But I was talking more to the fact that the House of Representatives will be solid Republican.
Regarding your point, Don, popular versus electoral vote, yes, we don't need that as a country. Though that would certainly be a better scenario than having the House of Representatives decide the presidency.
LEMON: All right. We have lots more to talk about, so you guys will be back. We're going to try to get this binders full of women thing in here.
CAIN: Oh, good. Good.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But hold your horse in a few minutes. There's more news to come here. And we're going to talk about the world of Facebook. And then the trekkies voyage into the record books as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Klingons, Balkans and Starfleet officers. They all showed up at a London convention just to break the record for the largest gathering of people dressed as characters from the "Star Trek" series. More than 1,000 costume clad fans took part in that event and verified by Guinness? Well, the total will beat the record set in August at the "Star Trek" convention in Las Vegas.
Potential terrorists are often caught up with the help of informants but now critics say investigators could be crossing a line. Are they helping to create those terrorists?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So picture this. A federal informant connects with a would-be terrorist. They had to plan and then the would-be terrorist gets busted. But would these suspects ever have done any harm if they hadn't crossed paths with an informant? And does it even help to get these prospective terrorists off the streets?
Susan Candiotti takes a closer look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a top story grabbing a lot of attention.
BRIAN WILLIAM, NBC NEWS: Breaking news. The FBI says it's foiled a plot.
DIANE SAWYER, ABC NEWS: The man did not know he was being tracked by an FBI sting.
ANDERSON COOPER, ANCHOR, ANDERSON COOPER 360: The suspect faces charges of attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction.
CANDIOTTI: An alleged plot to set off a car bomb outside New York's Federal Reserve Bank. The accused? A 21-year-old college student, Quazi Nafis from Bangladesh, who prosecutors say made contact with an informant who brought in several undercover agents to help him build a dummy bomb.
Yet, on his own, could the student have pulled off his alleged scheme to, quote, "destroy America"? The Justice Department stands by its use of an informant, charging Nafis' claimed al Qaeda connections and actively sought recruits. But criminal defense lawyer Ron Kuby, who is not involved in this case, questions the government's use of informants in this investigation and others.
(On camera): Prosecutors would say, we're not -- we're not building the bomb, they're going out there and buying the ingredients. They're the ones that are taking the active role in this.
RON KUBY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But that's not true. These people, for the most part, lack any capacity to carry into practice the evil things that they want to do. They have absolutely no ability to do it. Sometimes they're of subnormal or dramatically subnormal intelligence.
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): There's an ongoing debate over how informants are used. In 2006, the so-called Liberty City Seven were secretly recorded by the FBI. Mainly homeless men in Miami with an informant, accused in a plot to blow up federal buildings and Chicago's Sears Tower. After the first of two mistrials a jury foreman said this.
JEFF AGROW, JURY FOREMAN: I don't think any of us on the jury really felt that these guys were really that dangerous or really, quote, "terrorists."
CANDIOTTI: But after a third trial, five of the men were convicted. Last year, in another controversial case involving this man, the FBI dropped its investigation because according to sources there were questions about possible entrapment involving an informant. But New York City authorities say the case is solid and are prosecuting Jose Pimentel, an alleged al Qaeda sympathizer accused of plotting to set off pipe bombs.
Police offered this mock-up of how powerful the bombs could have been. Those images or just the prospect of them can be enough to convince juries, according to CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen.
PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: There's 100 percent conviction or pleading guilty rate. So juries are just not buying the idea that these guys are getting entrapped.
KUBY: I don't know that I disagree with the fact that this person should be removed from the street.
CANDIOTTI (on camera): I sense there's a "but" coming in.
KUBY: Well, the -- you know, the "but" is we want law enforcement, when law enforcement gets involved, to defuse these things, rather than to encourage people to act out their angriest moments.
CANDIOTTI: Going undercover, using informants, deciding who's really capable of launching a terror attack. That's the issue. And making that call can have life-changing consequences.
Susan Candiotti, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE) LEMON: This election season has comedians busy. But are the late- night parodies closer to reality than we want to believe?
And don't forget, wherever we go, we go, too. You can watch CNN live on your computer while you're at work or even on your smartphone. Head to CNN.com/TV.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: L.Z. and Will are back. All right. Let's spend some time talking about Mitt Romney during the debate, binders full of women.
L.Z., why is this a talking point for the left?
GRANDERSON: Well, first of all, it's just an offensive way to talk about half the country. Talk about employees, talk about future leaders, binders full of women. And then we find out he lied again, that this scenario that he painted during the debate did not happen at all. He was just trying to score points. So the reason why it's such a talking point is because, one, he characterized women in such a demeaning way and then, two, he lied about it on top of it.
LEMON: OK. So, listen, I don't disagree with anything you said. I just wonder why we -- every single word that comes out of someone's mouth, right, you say, my gosh, look what he said. When President Obama said, you didn't build that, the people on the left said, you know what he meant. He was talking about this. So if Mitt Romney is talking about reaching out to women and said, I asked for binders full of women or women's names or what he meant, or I needed to -- why can't --
GRANDERSON: They brought him binders full of women.
LEMON: Why don't people understand what he meant by that and look at his record on women, rather than him saying something that's inartful?
Will, go ahead.
GRANDERSON: Well, you know --
CAIN: Well --
GRANDERSON: Go ahead, Will.
CAIN: I mean, it's a better question for L.Z. And look, here's the deal, I just think it was funny. I mean it -- I know it became a social media MIM, whatever MIM is, right? I know it became that and it was funny. It's because the term is funny. Binders full of women. But does it carry any big social significance? L.Z. said it's offensive. Come on, I do think you're trying to make something out of nothing.
And by the way, I know why you're doing it. I know -- I know the narrative going into it, the war on women, that his policies affect women, all of which I would be happy to debate on a substantive level each and every one but binders full of women doesn't prove up any of that.
LEMON: It does sound -- it does sound bad.
GRANDERSON: Dude --
LEMON: If you had said binders full of gays or -- I mean it sounds bad but you get what people are --
GRANDERSON: Binders full of black people.
LEMON: Yes, well, you get what people -- OK, I'm being told we have to move on.
GRANDERSON: I mean, come on.
LEMON: Let's -- I want to talk about this. Play this "SNL" clip and then we'll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gas prices are a little high if you ask me, so how come you don't do nothing about that? All right, thank you, all right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Eugene, obviously we need to do everything we can to become energy independent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really? Then why have you cut drilling permits on federal land by half?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, so how much did you cut?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn't cut anything? You're not going to cut anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm about to cut you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd like to see that. I'd like to see that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me at him, dad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on. Sit down, Tagg. All right? Not now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So -- talking about Tagg Romney saying he wanted to take a swing at the president.
Listen, I mean, sometimes, you know, the truth is often spoken in jest. That was uncomfortable for a lot of people. We have a short time here left. About decorum. They thought this was beneath the two men to act this way. First L.Z. GRANDERSON: It's ridiculous. You know, we need to get over it. We need to look at our history. I think wasn't President Hoover having like rotten fruit and tomatoes thrown at his car when he left D.C.? I mean his is just the way it's always been. I think it's what it will always will be and it's way too sensitive to look at two men arguing, then we don't deserve to have a thoughtful conversation.
LEMON: Will, negative, 10 seconds.
CAIN: Totally agree with L.Z. We're always going to hell and hand basket, just wait for tomorrow. They'll say it again about something else.
LEMON: All right. I should say that Will is in the new "GQ" and L.Z. and I are mentioned as well except they got their information wrong. The details, details, sorry. Details. Sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
CAIN: All the stuff and (INAUDIBLE) you've ever seen.
LEMON: OK. And I got my information wrong. Yes. But details, it's not right. He did not take us to task. We'll be right back.
CAIN: I always do, every Sunday night.
GRANDERSON: He doesn't know where task is located. He can't take us there.
LEMON: Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Time to talk about sports now. And best time of year for baseball fans, October playoffs. Sports analyst Larry Smith here. He's also doing some postseason reports for bleacherreport.com. So let's start with the National League here. Let's see, St. Louis leads San Francisco three games to two. And then they play game six later tonight.
What do you look for?
LARRY SMITH, SPORTS ANALYST: This one will be really good. It's a pitching rematch of game two, but keep in mind, these are a couple of teams that in the national league division series, both were on the verge of being out. The Cardinals down to the last strike twice and the Giants were 0-2 at home, had to win three straight in Cincinnati to move on. This could go to a game seven tomorrow night. It's been a very thrilling series.
LEMON: So the Yankees and who else -- the Yankees and Detroit.
SMITH: The Tigers.
LEMON: Detroit Tigers. SMITH: Yes. Yes.
LEMON: A-Rod is out, the highest player in the league. What 's going on here. Where do you think this is going to end up?
SMITH: Well, this is going to be -- you know, to quote my colleague, Adam Everett, at bleacherreport.com over at Turner, you know, the Yankees have got to make a decision. Either they're -- they're all in or they're all out. But is he going to be your third baseman every which he -- was not in the lineup in a couple of games in Detroit so maybe not. You're paying him $28 million.
LEMON: That's what I mean. What do you think it's going to end up for him? Because is he going to be able to come back and be the player that he once was, do you think?
SMITH: No. No. He'll be 38 in July and players' skills decrease as they get older.
LEMON: There you go.
SMITH: But here's the thing. You ask yourself why would the Yankees -- because they have five years left in his contract, why pay A-Rod that kind of money? The question is very simple. Marketing. Great organizations understand you've got to pay the money to keep that brand up and having A-Rod on your roster, as you can see here, the money that he's due, he's the big man and even if they have to eat some of that salary to send him elsewhere, he has a no-trade clause as well, he still is A-Rod, he's a Yankees, we're talking about the Yankees now nine days after they were out of the playoffs.
LEMON: $28 million next year, is that what he's going to get paid? Let's run through --
SMITH: Yes. Guaranteed. Guaranteed.
LEMON: I want to run through his career numbers. Fifth in homeruns, seventh in RBIs, tenth in runs scored. He's already a hall of famer. As you said he's 36 years old and then he's going to get $28, $29 million next year. That's a lot of doe, dude.
SMITH: It's good cash.
(LAUGHTER)
To sit the bench during a playoff series. So listen, but take nothing away from him. He's been -- he's one of the all-time greats, OK? And what he has done, he's done it for a very long time.
LEMON: His admission back in 2009 that he used steroids for a while, does that play any role into -- is that going to play any role into his future or is that all behind him?
SMITH: You know I think the fact that he admitted it --
LEMON: Right. SMITH: -- is a big part of that. The numbers speak for themselves. The question will be, will those voting five years after he retires, which is probably, again, eight or nine years from now, will they hold that against him? My gut is no, but we'll see.
LEMON: Lance Armstrong, it's been a very bad couple of weeks. As you said, he had to step down. They said he was -- you know, this is the most sophisticated doping operation they've ever seen in the sport. A lot of his sponsors are gone, people are asking for their money back. But he -- you know, he said he's never admitted it.
Do you think that he is hoping that people, I don't know, somehow think that because of his history, because of what he's done and because he hasn't denied it, that the court of public opinion will swing in his favor?
SMITH: You know, I guess so. It seems -- and here's the thing that's funny. You talk about A-Rod and Lance Armstrong. Nike drops Lance Armstrong and we don't have any concrete evidence of doping, only what we're hear being about.
LEMON: Right.
SMITH: But they stuck with A-Rod who admitted to doping. You know, you have to wonder, there's got to be something there that we're not hearing about. In about 12 hours the International Cycling Union will decide if they're going got ban him for life as well if there's something there.
LEMON: Yes. Why would they be pursuing it so hard if there was -- not enough evidence there.
SMITH: Exactly. And he retired once. The judge denied his request to suppress information to allow USADA to chase that. Once that happened (INAUDIBLE).
LEMON: It's so good to see you.
SMITH: Good to see you as always.
LEMON: Thank you.
SMITH: All right. Take care.
LEMON: I'm looking forward to seeing you soon. Thanks.
