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CNN International: Supreme Court Opinion Release Will Slip Into First Week Of July; Supreme Court Allows Emergency Abortions In Idaho Hours Ahead Of Biden-Trump Debate On CNN; Supreme Court Rejects Opioid Settlement For Purdue Pharma. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired June 27, 2024 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ERICA HILL, HOST, "CNN NEWSROOM": The countdown is on to tonight's CNN presidential debate. A live look here at that debate stage in Atlanta at CNN's world headquarters. Plus, a big day for the Supreme Court, landmark decisions handed down just a short time ago. We are live in Washington with the very latest there. I'm Erica Hill joining you from New York today.
Let's begin this hour with the breaking news out of Washington, D.C. A busy, consequential morning at the U.S. Supreme Court, the justices releasing a number of opinions, including that much anticipated decision on an Idaho abortion ban. You'll recall a document related to that case was briefly, and we're told, unintentionally posted online yesterday. The decision by the court to dismiss that case six to three allows abortions to continue in the case of a medical emergency in the state of Ohio.
Also today, a decision on a controversial multi-billion dollar settlement agreement involving Purdue Pharma. The agreement would have provided -- allowed them to not be subject to further lawsuits. And then, as part of that settlement, a large part of money would have gone to some treatment options for dealing with, rather, this massive, of course, addiction issue and opioid issue in this country.
There are still a number of other decisions we're waiting on from the court, which means that this will now, we're told, we're not waiting on decisions just tomorrow, but it sounds like we could see this move into next week as well.
I want to bring in my colleague, CNN Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider, who is in Washington and has been going through these decisions that were handed down. Let's start if we could, Jessica, with this ruling on abortion. Yet another ruling that we were anticipating, of course, this in the wake of Dobbs which overturned Roe v. Wade two years ago, and some really interesting comments from both Justice Jackson and Justice Alito, who dissented here was a six to three decision to dismiss this case. What does it mean now for practical purposes moving forward?
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So, practically, Erica, this decision, it will allow emergency abortions now to continue in Idaho. The Supreme Court released this opinion after inadvertently releasing it briefly on its website yesterday. But, what the decision does officially today is it holds an Idaho law that was a near-total ban on abortion. This law was actually in fact -- in effect for the past several months. But, I'll note what this opinion doesn't do is it does not definitively decide if this Idaho law is proper, meaning, if it properly or improperly conflicts with a federal law that requires doctors in emergency rooms to perform abortions, if necessary, to prevent serious injury to a woman.
So, this is a bit of an incremental win for women and doctors in Idaho, who had voiced just how difficult medical care had become in the past few months with this Idaho law in effect. Women were being regularly airlifted out of the state when they were having problems with their pregnancies and potentially might need an abortion. This was regularly happening every other week, as opposed to before this law was in effect, just basically once a year women were being airlifted out.
So, this decision, it delays any big decision about the legality of this near-total abortion ban in Idaho, and also what it does, much to the detriment of maybe pregnant women in other states, is it lets laws that exist in several other states, about a half dozen states that also have these near-total abortion bans. Those laws in those other states, not Idaho, they'll continue to be in place.
So, it's an incremental win for women and doctors in Idaho who had complained about this near-total abortion ban and the detrimental effects. But, it doesn't settle, Erica, the broader issue here of whether or not the Idaho law and similar laws like it conflict with the federal law, and whether in the long run, doctors in emergency rooms will have to perform abortions if it's necessary to prevent serious injury to a woman. Erica.
HILL: Yeah. It simply delays the answer to some of those questions and the legal questions that only continue to grow in a number of states. I also want to ask you about some of the other rulings that we saw, one involving Purdue Pharma.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HILL: There was also the EPA. Walk us through quickly those decisions.
SCHNEIDER: The Purdue Pharma case was a very big decision as well, because this scraps any hopes for the Sackler family that ran Purdue Pharma, the manufacturer or the maker of the highly addictive OxyContin that led millions of Americans to be highly addicted to both OxyContin and then also highly addictive painkillers.
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And the Purdue -- the Sackler family had tried to say, we're going to go into this bankruptcy settlement, or as part of this settlement, we're going to create a about $6 billion fund that will fund treatment programs and also give money to states, governments, Native American tribes, so they can distribute it to help victims and their families. Well, the Supreme Court today striking this deal down, saying that in this particular case, the Sackler family can't get immunity in a sense from these civil lawsuits just by the mere fact that they've agreed to this bankruptcy plan.
I'll note, Erica, it's really interesting. Many of the families affected by this, they had been in favor of this bankruptcy plan, because in their view, they kind of said, we don't really think we're ever going to get much more than $6 billion from the Sackler family. So, why not just settle it and be done with this years-long litigation? So, that was one big case.
Another big case sort of stripped some power from the Environmental Protection Agency that had wanted to institute this 'Good Neighbor' rule, which limited emissions from power plants in northern states that had been to the detriment and creating pollution for some southern states here in the U.S. The EPA cannot enact their rule to limit the emissions at this point, while the litigation continues. So, it's definitely a blow to the EPA, especially the fact that we're just months away from the election, and if Joe Biden does not win in November, it's the potential that this plan could completely be scrapped.
So, a lot of big decisions from the Supreme Court today, four total. We still have about six opinions left, Erica, including that big one regarding presidential immunity from criminal prosecution. We have opinions tomorrow and then we will be going into next week. So, we'll see what happens tomorrow, or if the Supreme Court waits on that big one involving immunity until July 1 or later.
HILL: They do love to stretch it until the very end. Do they not?
SCHNEIDER: They do.
HILL: Appreciate it different. Thanks, Jess.
Joining me now, Jeff Swartz. He is a former judge in the state of Florida, also professor at the Thomas Cooley Law School. Great to have you with us. And make sure you put us in your calendar for the next few days because we will not be done tomorrow with these decisions. Looking at what we did know, what we did see today, as Jessica was just walking us through some of those, there was so much focus on, of course, this case involving this incredibly restrictive law in the state of Ohio banning abortion in all cases, except if it involves the life of the pregnant mother. That is now on hold. We're waiting for it to play out.
But, I found it remarkable that we really learned a lot here by the comments from both Justice Jackson and Justice Alito, which could not be more different except for the fact that they both think this should have been resolved, not dismissed.
JEFF SWARTZ, FORMER MIAMI-DADE COUNTY COURT JUDGE: Right. And I think what we see is, unfortunately, the politicalization of the Supreme Court. I think that Justice Alito felt, if they went forward, he was going to prevail, and the idea that the federal law does not supersede or is not supreme over the Idaho law, and as a result of which the Idaho law would have been found to be enforceable. He felt that he had the votes. Somehow or another, he lost the votes. And he was very critical, I think, of those, like Amy Coney Barrett or Brett Kavanaugh or even Justice Roberts, who were not going along with what he wanted to do.
Justice Jackson, on the other hand, was upset that they didn't make a decision, that they did not go forward, that they didn't do what they had to do, and she even used terms like kicking the can down the road. And are we going to -- we're going to read here and rehash things, I'm reading from the opinion. She was very frustrated. She thought she had the votes.
So, what we're seeing is a court that I think is divided in three ways. I think there is those three, which is Alito and Thomas and Gorsuch. There is three that are the three liberal women. And then, there are the three in the middle that are trying to find their way through following Justice Roberts. That's kind of the way that I see it. And I think that's what happened here. And what it does is it just leaves in place the stay that was issued by the district court of the Idaho law and let it wean its way through all the way through the system through the circuit court. It really exposes them at this point.
HILL: Based on that, right, I mean, there has been so much talk about how the American public feels about the Supreme Court. They do not make their rulings based on public opinion. As we know, they should be based on the law. That being said, the way you lay out, it does really feel like the makeup of the court and how they're all perhaps with the infighting and with the camps are at this point.
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We are still expecting a number of really important decisions, notably immunity did not come on the day of the first presidential debate. Sure, it would have made for an interesting question, nor did the ruling on January 6.
SWARTZ: Yeah.
HILL: Those are two of the big ones we're waiting for.
SWARTZ: Right.
HILL: How do you think they are trying to meter this out, because it's interesting that we're now going to go into July, this term, with these opinions?
SWARTZ: Well, first of all, we won't be done until the chief justice announces there are no further opinions. I'm still afraid and I will maintain afraid until I see the opinion that somehow or another there is going to be -- we're going to put this immunity thing off until October. We'll give you an opinion then. I'm praying that that doesn't happen.
But, I do have some fear. I don't think we'll see the immunity opinion until next week sometime. It may not be Monday. It may be Tuesday. It will go until the chief justice says we're going to go. And I have some concerns. I also think that there are three camps inside the Supreme Court on the immunity issue. And one says, no immunity. The other one says, absolute immunity. And then there is three in the middle. And the question is, which one is going to be the one that's going to be the opinion of the court, as opposed to a plurality opinion, which leaves us with no opinion? So, I'm kind of waiting to see how this breaks out.
HILL: Yeah.
SWARTZ: It could be very interesting next week.
HILL: Yeah. It certainly will be. Jeff, always appreciate your insight, your expertise. Thanks for lending it to us again this morning.
SWARTZ: Nice to see you again. Thank you for having me.
HILL: Also joining me this hour Bonyen Lee-Gilmore, who is Vice President of Communications for the National Institute for Reproductive Health. Bonyen, good to have you with us this morning. As we look at where things stand, Justice Jackson saying in her note that she -- that -- as Jeff just alluded to, Jeff Swartz, this was kicking the can down the road, that this was a delay, certainly not a victory that this was dismissed. Justice Alito, in his dissent, saying it was baffling that this case should have been decided. What does this mean in terms of the questions that healthcare providers have moving forward in various states? We see places like Idaho where there is an obstetric desert in many areas.
BONYEN LEE-GILMORE, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH, & VICE PRESIDENT OF COMMUNICATIONS, NIRH: Yeah. That's a great question. Well, first of all, I mean, I think we have to be very clear, continuing this case for months on end buys political time in an election year when most of America is outraged over abortion bans across party lines. And it's critical we do not forget what this case is about. If we take a giant step back and just remember what we're talking about, our country is at a point where a pregnant person's right to receive emergency stabilizing care is in question. That should be unacceptable on all levels. And I couldn't agree more. This is kicking the can down the road.
As long as this decision is delayed, there will be continued confusion in the states, particularly in states where abortion is banned.
HILL: The CNN debate is tonight. What would you like to hear from both of these candidates when it comes to abortions and reproductive health? Joe Biden is pretty clear, I guess, where he stands, but Donald Trump has gone back and forth. Do you think he can nail down an answer on that? And if so, what do you think it would be?
LEE-GILMORE: Well, so, look, we have two candidates who are going to be in a debate today -- tonight and one candidate who wants to reinstate Roe really wants to just ban abortion at 24 weeks. That's what Roe v. Wade did. And the other candidate can't decide because abortion bans are so desperately unpopular. But, we really know that Trump's ultimate goal here is to ban abortion.
And the anti-abortion operatives have been very clear about this strategy, and it goes back to assigning fetal rights. If they can successfully enshrine fetal personhood, they will be able to continue giving governments an interest in pregnancies. So, what I want to hear, what I think most pro-abortion advocates want to hear from President Biden, is a complete denouncement of any abortion bans at any point in pregnancy. It needs to be that clear, that the government has no interest in pregnancy decision making for people across this country. And anything short of that leaves a lot of confusion and a lot of room for banning this critical care.
HILL: Bonyen Lee-Gilmore, appreciate joining us this morning. Thank you.
LEE-GILMORE: Thank you.
HILL: Just ahead, it is in fact debate day in America, two candidates, two moderators, no studio audience.
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We will take a closer look at what you will see and what the candidates have agreed to for this consequential debate. Plus, on this crucial day in politics, one of the latest CNN Poll of Polls show us about where the voters stand on their two choices.
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HILL: Well, today is the day here. All eyes on Atlanta, as sitting U.S. President Joe Biden faces off against former U.S. President Donald Trump. The pivotal moment in this 2024 election, of course, happening right here on CNN. We're having a live look at this hour. There is the debate hall in Atlanta, final preps underway. In just about 10 hours, maybe a little less from now, Mr. Biden and Mr. Trump will be on that stage at those two podiums you see right there, and they are eight feet apart from one another. They'll be speaking directly to the American people, and honestly, to people around the world who are tuning in. No live audience in that studio.
Our moderators, my colleagues, Jake Tapper and Dana Bash, will be hitting on a number of key issues dominating this election, immigration, the U.S. economy, the issues that matter most to the voters who, again, are tuning in for answers from their two choices come November. CNN has, of course, our team across this presidential debate in Atlanta.
Joining us at this hour, Alayna Treene, who is in the spin room, and of course, she has been covering the Trump campaign, and our senior White House Correspondent Kayla Tausche, who is joining us from CNN's overlook area.
So, Kayla, as we enter these final hours of debate prep, both candidates will be making their way to Atlanta. What is Team Biden doing in these final hours before the debate tonight? KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, President Biden tends to be a night owl and there were long working days at Camp David, and I'm told the schedule for this morning was left fluid so that it could allow for the possibility that President Biden woke up and wanted to do an additional mock debate before departing. He is scheduled to leave Camp David in the next hour. We've also learned from our sources that one of the pivotal issues, the tentpole issues that he plans to talk about, democracy, he is expected to frame that through a specific lens, and that is describing this election that's coming up as a watershed election, not dissimilar from 2004, which followed 9/11, and was seen as a referendum on foreign policy there, and 2008, which was seen as a referendum on the global financial crisis.
And President Biden we expect to make the argument that January 6 should be viewed in the same light and that it should be seen as a watershed moment for voters that if they make a decision to bring Trump back into office, that democracy, as we know, would begin to unravel. We know that through many of these arguments that he is going to be making, he will do it through a direct appeal to the camera, reaching through the lens into the living room of voters. It's a tactic and a tried and true method that the President has used for a very long time to try to speak directly to voters. And I'm told from sources close to the campaign that in 2020 when he did it, it worked.
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That dial testing being done by focus groups showed that he really increased his favorability with those focus groups when he had those moments that were able to humanize them. Now, as for the humans who are going to be on the stage, there is no love lost between these two presidents. They will be standing just eight feet apart for the first time in four years. And as for the parlor game of, will they, won't they extend a handshake, it remains to be seen. We expect there to be a game time decision there, but they didn't have to in 2020 because of, of course COVID-era protocol. And I spoke to some longtime aides of President Biden's who say, he didn't do it then. No sentence starting now. Erica.
HILL: No sense. It's funny. I do want to let you know and I -- and my apologies for throwing this at you, Kayla, because we're just getting it in now too. But, we have also been talking this week about how the Biden campaign has been releasing more and more ads, as he was prepping for the debate. The campaign really seizing on this decision that we got from the Supreme Court just about an hour ago when it comes to that Idaho abortion law. This is also part of that debate week strategy by the campaign.
TAUSCHE: Yeah. It is. And abortion is one of the three critical issues that the Biden campaign said that they plan to go on the attack for and really argue that Trump would be a danger for America, on democracy, on the economy, and on abortion specifically. We know from senior administration officials that the White House had been bracing for that abortion ruling. They really viewed that emergency room care law as the last tool in their toolbox to protect some of those rights for women. Even so, we got a comment from a senior advisor to the Biden campaign in the immediate wake of that decision, calling out Donald Trump and still saying that there is urgency on that issue and that women's rights are still in peril. Erica.
HILL: Kayla, appreciate it. Thank you.
CNN's Alayna Treene also with us. We know that there has been less perhaps formal prep, or the Trump campaign is certainly not attributing it to the more formal debate prep that we've seen in other candidates, but they have been walking through issues. We know they're talking through policy and facts. They are dealing with the reality of the situation. How much has abortion been a focus for Team Trump, as they're preparing the former President for tonight, when especially based on this ruling today, one would imagine it will come up and his position has been a little all over the map?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: It has. And look, this is definitely one of the topics and one of the issues that Donald Trump's team has been advising him on, working with him to sharpen his rhetoric on over the past several weeks. Now, even though as you mentioned, Erica, Donald Trump's team doesn't like to use the term a debate prep, he has been preparing. He has been participating in more than a dozen, I'm told, policy discussions with VP contenders, his allies, former administration officials, policy experts, all of them to help him really formulate his response, particularly on a number of key issues, not just the ones that they want to talk about, the ones that he wants to talk about are immigration -- excuse me, immigration, the economy and crime, but also on the issues that he doesn't really want to go into, which is abortion.
Now, this is an issue that Donald Trump has really struggled with for over a year now. And he really was weighing whether to -- for months whether to come out for a national ban, something he ultimately declined to do, instead saying he thinks that should be left up to the states. He is going to keep that position tonight, I'm told, and he is really committed to sticking with that through the rest of the election.
But, of course, it's a difficult subject for him to talk about, especially when you think about many of the Conservatives and the Evangelical Christians who helped get him elected to office in the first place in 2016. They had been unhappy with his answer. And then, as I think you'll probably hear from the Biden campaign and Biden himself tonight, as Kayla was laying out, a lot of people on the left are also very frustrated with Donald Trump and worry about what him being in office could do to policies related to abortion. So, this is something that they have definitely spend time on behind the scenes.
And you also talked to Kayla about an ad blitz. We're actually seeing ads as well being released from the Trump campaign today. And what I find really notable about this, Erica, is we really haven't seen many ads from the Trump campaign itself. This is one of the first ads we're seeing since he became the presumptive Republican nominee earlier this year. Take a listen to what one of those ads had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No matter what Joe Biden promised in the debate, ask yourself, are you financially better off since he became President? Are you and your family safer since he became President? Is our country more secure since he became President?
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TREENE: So, Erica, those are the issues that they really wanted to focus on. You could hear it. They brought up inflation, the economy, crime, the border, all things where Donald Trump polls more favorably than Joe Biden.
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It also really I think, just to take a step back, it kind of points to the big picture of what the Trump campaign is really hoping the former President will do tonight, which is to draw a sharp contrast with his former administration with the Biden's current administration, and obviously try to paint it in the best light that he can. Erica.
HILL: Alayna Treene, appreciate the reporting, as always. Thank you.
Joining me now, Republican strategist Rina Shah. She is a former senior presidential campaign advisor. Rina, great to see you today. When we look at sort of the strategy here for both candidates, for Donald Trump, I know you said he has three things he has to do tonight. There has been a lot of talk about what will his temperament be. Right? So, we've heard he needs to stay calm. But, you said what he really needs to do is to teach, convince and inspire, and he has to use data and facts. That is not always the former President's strong suit. How much do you think that will have changed coming into this debate?
RINA SHAH, U.S. REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, & FMR. SENIOR PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN ADVISOR: Well, any amount of prep would have helped Trump tonight, because what he needs is a realization that he can't take the version of himself that he has s been taking out on the road for four years to tonight's stage. Rallies are very different than debates. And Trump has shown that he doesn't quite get that. So, I'll be really interested to see what version of himself he brings tonight.
And if I were advising him, which I am not, the one thing I would do is, again, tether him to the TCI. I love giving candidates an acronym that they need to have in their minds at any point in the night, that bring them back to what their job is. And for Trump, it's to teach the American public something that they may not have known that the Biden administration did over this past four years, and then to convince the public also that he is the better option. So, to continue to go back to that point that I'm better than him because, and then thirdly is to inspire people. We know that with this rematch that seemingly nobody really wanted, he has got to inspire people to turn out for him, not against Biden.
HILL: So, as we look at this, right, I'm going to ask you to put in your strategist hat, but just pretend you're working for Joe Biden here, and in terms of advice you would give him, part of what we learned from our own -- my own CNN colleagues and their reporting and specifically for my colleague Kayla Tausche, she part of what the Biden team has been working on is, of course, we know there is this question about, will he have the energy up there on the stage, sort of addressing that in his performance, but also sticking within that two minutes Joe Biden is known for. He can connect. We saw that in dial testing, right? He can connect through a screen, but he can go on a little bit, and he can really tell a story.
How difficult is that sometimes for candidates to get them to understand that they have got to keep it short and succinct?
SHAH: That is always a challenge to candidates that are sometimes first-timers or who have not met their opponent before on a stage. That's not the case here. These two men are not just acquainted with each other, they've run against each other before. And so, if I were to advice Joe Biden on any front, it would be that you should not react to Trump, because again, also, we don't know what version of himself Trump is bringing tonight. Just like Trump is saying, we don't know what version of himself Biden is bringing tonight, it's similar for Biden to look at Trump as this person that is just going to be whoever he is, and may say something intended to get Joe off his game.
But, what Biden has got to do, what Joe Biden's number one job is tonight is to bring the data points that speak to the success of his administration, and re-instill trust in every viewer about his capacity and about the people around him to serve the American public well in this next four years. The way in which he can do that, Erica, is by bringing the version of himself that he took to the State of the Union dais over at the House of Representatives when he was speaking to that joint session of Congress. He wasn't just vibrant and energetic. He was loaded full of substance, again, data points that are quick and easy for the viewer to remember about how good his administration has been.
HILL: Republican strategist Rina Shah, good to see you, as always. Thank you.
SHAH: Thank you.
HILL: And of course, the action is happening right here on CNN tonight, 9 p.m. Eastern. And if you're joining us internationally, that time is a little rough for you. Fear not, we will be replaying the debate for you, as you can see, 7 a.m. London time. That's two o'clock in Hong Kong. And we're going to do that again for you 12 hours later, 7 p.m. on Friday, 7 p.m. London time, which, of course, is also 10 p.m. in Abu Dhabi.
Just ahead here, a dramatic confrontation unfolding between the President of Bolivia and the former army chief, following a failed military coup on Wednesday. Plus, we are live on the streets of Kenya's capital where police and demonstrators clashing again amid a new round of protests.
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HILL: Tense confrontations continuing at this hour between police and protesters in Kenya's capital, amid a fresh round of protests. Riot police have been firing tear gas throughout the day, as they attempt to clear the streets in Nairobi. Protesters forging ahead, though, with their planned "One Million People March" and moving on with that march, of course, even after President Ruto did concede to their key demands by withdrawing a controversial bill proposing tax hikes. Many processors, they're still angry after policemen firing live rounds -- were firing live rounds during Tuesday's clashes, reportedly killing at least 23 people.
My colleague Larry Madowo has been covering the protests throughout the week, and is of course on the streets there in Nairobi at this hour. It looks maybe a little calmer than the last time we spoke. But, we can see the police activity right behind you there, Larry.
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. The police have managed to beat back the protesters and kick them out of the city. So, it's much calmer now. And this is extraordinary, because this is one of the busiest intersections here in the city. I know because they used to work on the street and you see that police van there just keeping patrol. For the most part, they have managed to get rid of the protesters who were -- I think you see some of the signs left here, Ruto must go, referring to President William Ruto, who they told us they do not trust that even after he withdrew the finance bill that was supposed to introduce all these new taxes, they're still out on the street today, they told us, because they don't trust him. They don't trust his administration.
The cost of living is still too high. They're concerned about corruption in the country, and they don't see a future for themselves. That's why they say Ruto must go. But, what happened today is that was a strong security presence all around the city, such that you couldn't really see a lot of protesters. Every time they tried to gather, they would quickly beat them back with tear gas, and police patrolling everywhere.
I've been covering this protest for two weeks now straight, and I think this was the strongest security presence we've seen on the streets, maybe an extra precaution. After two of this protests became violent, at least 23 people were killed, according to human rights groups. And today, police were determined to make sure that there is no -- there isn't any more activity than we saw last time. There is still this national anger, according to the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights. That threatens to boil over. How that will express itself, it's not clear at this time, but at least the young people that were out here on the streets are a much smaller population, a much smaller number.
The turnout was nothing compared to Tuesday, which shocked everyone in the nation, including President Ruto, and forced him to withdraw that unpopular finance bill. But, today, on a Friday evening, was supposed to be rush hour, largely empty streets because of this police activity and the extra addition today of the military patrolling the streets. They didn't engage the protesters. They didn't try and break up anything.
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But, what they did do is patrol everywhere, after sending like these guys you see on the back of this truck just with the guns on the ready, patrolling across the main streets and stadiums and some of the states, and that I think also had an effect of keeping some people at home, Erica.
HILL: Yeah. Absolutely. Larry, really appreciate it and appreciate all the work you've been doing over the last couple of weeks. Thank you.
I'm going to turn our attention to Bolivia now where President Luis Arce has called on the country to mobilize in defense of democracy following a failed military coup on Wednesday. Really dramatic confrontation between the President and the leader of that coup, former Army Chief Juan Jose Zuniga. That all unfolded in the government palace. After a tense standoff, the coup leader was ultimately arrested.
Joining me now from Bogota, Stefano Pozzebon. So, Stefano, there were reports that the coup leader, the former Army Chief here, is actually saying, hey, the President told me to do this, told me to carry out that military operation. Clearly, two different narratives. Do we know what really happened?
STEFANO POZZEBON, JOURNALIST: We don't know what exactly happened, unfortunately, Erica. I think that there are still many questions hanging over these confusing actions on Wednesday afternoon in La Paz. At the end of the day, we don't know what Zuniga was really trying to achieve, because it seemed that he never got the support from the rest of the armed forces to complete his military takeover of the state.
There was dramatic scenes, of course. You probably seen already this image of the armored personnel vehicle that ran through the doors of the presidential palace, forcing their way into the seat of the government to allow the soldiers to storm the presidential palace, only to be met by the sitting civilian President Luis Arce that was holding the bastion of command. He was holding a -- he is a presidential stash to present himself as the leader of the nation and told the coup mongers to go back essentially to those barracks.
And we still don't know exactly what was Zuniga trying to achieve. What we know, however, is that there is calm being restored in the streets of La Paz. And just a few hours ago, we were able to speak with the Defense Minister of Bolivia, the sitting Defense Minister of Bolivia, who said that the stability of the institutions was not a risk. Just take a listen straight out of La Paz.
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EDMUNDO NOVILLO, BOLIVIAN DEFENSE MINISTER (Interpreted): Let me be clear, the Armed Forces as a whole are not part of us. It is a few bad soldiers who took advantage of their command, like the Army Chief and others, and attacked democracy and the will of the people. That's what we call a coup d'etat, and it failed. (END VIDEO CLIP)
POZZEBON: And Erica, in that interview with CNN Espanol, Defense Minister of Bolivia, Edmundo Novillo, also said that there will be two investigations, a civilian investigation led by the Attorney General, and a military investigation led by the military prosecutor service into what happened on Wednesday. Erica.
HILL: Stefano Pozzebon in Bogota, appreciate it. Thank you.
Still to come here, the countdown is on for the history-making presidential CNN debate in Atlanta. What can you expect when President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump face off tonight? We'll take a closer look at that, and also why this could prove critically important in a very tight presidential race.
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HILL: Well, it is very swiftly approaching that time, the presidential debate, the very first one of 2024 tonight in Atlanta. It all happens at CNN's world headquarters. And this is the debate stage, where for the first time in history, we'll have a sitting U.S. President facing off against a former U.S. President. Really can't overstate the stakes here of this debate, of this election, of course. The latest CNN Poll of Polls continuing to show a very tight race between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. There is really no clear leader here. The debate is also the earliest ever in a presidential election year. In fact, it's a debate that's happening before either men is officially nominated to be their party's respective nominee.
Jeff Zeleny has been speaking to voters ahead of today's debate. Here is more from Atlanta.
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JEFF ZELENY, CNN U.S. CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Mariama Davis is busy in her Atlanta boutique, hopeful for the summer ahead.
MARIAMA DAVIS, GEORGIA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: Hey there. Welcome to the beehive.
ZELENY (voice-over): When you ask her that age-old question in politics --
ZELENY: Mariama, are things better for you than they were four years ago?
ZELENY (voice-over): Her deliberate answer is telling.
MARIAMA DAVIS, GEORGIA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: I mean, with the loan forgiveness and that definitely better. But, things aren't -- it might be just a little slight increase, but they feel pretty much the same.
ZELENY: It's not worse.
DAVIS: It's not worse. It's not worse.
ZELENY (voice-over): While it's hardly the slogan President Biden is running on, it taps into a sentiment often expressed by supporters like Davis. She manages the beehive, a small business like so many on an economic roller coaster.
DAVIS: If people have a choice to buy eggs or food and gifts, we still expect them to buy food for their families. But, like I said, our doors are still open. So, we're grateful for that.
ZELENY (voice-over): She is also grateful the President is seeking a second term and has high hopes for his chances in Georgia, where Biden defeated Donald Trump by 11,779 votes out of five million cast, the closest margin of any battleground.
KELVIN KING, GEORGIA REPUBLICAN VOTER: A good candidate on either side may be able to sway voters in Georgia.
ZELENY (voice-over): Kelvin King, a conservative Republican leader, backed Trump in 2016 and 2020.
KING: And thank you for fighting for all Americans.
ZELENY (voice-over): While he believes Biden is vulnerable on inflation, immigration and more, he said a Trump victory here is hardly guaranteed.
KING: We have new Republicans who are excited about President Trump. We have some Republicans that are not.
ZELENY (voice-over): It's one of the biggest questions of the race. Can Trump capitalize on Biden's challenges? The former President's campaign has started opening offices across the state, like this one in Marietta, but Trump has yet to bury the hatchet with the popular Republican Governor Brian Kemp --
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me tell you, this guy is a disaster.
ZELENY (voice-over): -- who refused to give in to Trump's demands to overturn the election, which made Georgia an early epicenter of criminal charges against him.
KING: Re-litigation is not going to drive people to the polls, at least not the folks in the middle, the folks that we need. But, focusing on today and tomorrow is really where we need to be.
ZELENY (voice-over): Georgia is among the battlegrounds Trump is trying to win back, along with Arizona, while also picking up Nevada, which he lost twice. Biden could lose all three and still win reelection if he holds the blue wall of Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and a single electoral vote in Nebraska. To keep all pathways open, Democrats are making big investments in Georgia with a dozen offices.
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will gather. We will organize. We will build community. We will build coalition.
ZELENY (voice-over): That framed coalition is a pressing challenge facing the Biden campaign. When we met Kerry Singleton last year, he was disappointed Biden hadn't achieved all of his promises.
KERRY SINGLETON, GEORGIA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: Just as well as we hold Trump accountable, we have to hold Biden accountable.
ZELENY (voice-over): After hearing the President deliver a commencement address at Morehouse College last month and focusing on his November choice, he sees it differently.
SINGLETON: My disagreements previously do not matter as much as the two people that we have as choices here. And to me, President -- former President Donald Trump just isn't an option whatsoever.
ZELENY (voice-over): Back at the beehive, Davis is optimistic for the fall, and for her, status quo sounds just fine.
DAVIS: You know what you're getting with Joe Biden? He doesn't pull any punches. He is a straight shooter, and I'm happy to see more of the same.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: And our thanks again to Jeff Zeleny for that.
Joining me now, Margie Omero, Democratic pollster, and John Conway, he is Director of Strategy for the group "Republican Voters Against Trump".
[11:45:00]
Good to see both of you today. This is a big day, as we know. Latest Quinnipiac polling some 73 percent of Americans expect that they will tune in to tonight's debate. But, there is not a lot of wiggle room here for either candidate to pick up voters. A lot of people have really made up their minds.
Margie, what does Joe Biden need to do tonight?
MARGIE OMERO, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER, GBAO: Well, I think what we've seen in the past is that Joe Biden, when he has these big moments, really comes through and people really respond to seeing him address the American people clearly. We've seen it in dialogue groups during the State of the Union, where voters emerge feeling they've moved from before and after the speech. And so, I think we should hope the President to replicate that tonight.
And I think what's important is to show the real contrast between the two candidates at once. There are a lot of voters who have made up their mind, feel they know both of the candidates, and have been tuning out some of the news. They don't watch Trump's rambling (ph) speeches during his rally appearances. And now, he is going to have to be really focused. And the question that I hear in focus groups that people say they want to hear from candidates, any candidate is, why do you want to do this? What makes you want to go into public service? Why are you running for office? And the contrast on that couldn't be clearer between Joe Biden and President Trump. So, that's going to be part of what people, I think, will be listening for and will hear tonight.
HILL: John, I know you do run Republican voters against Trump. But, looking at who is going to be on the stage tonight, sort of similar question, what does Donald Trump need to do? But also, to Margie's point about what she is hearing in focus groups, what are you hearing? What do voters want to hear, because ultimately, this is for the voters tonight?
JOHN CONWAY, DIRECTOR OF STRATEGY, REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP: Yeah. I think the voters that matter for this election are going to be what we call double doubters. These are voters who have negative views on both Joe Biden and Donald Trump. And what we hear in these focus groups is that many of these voters have not yet internalized, that they're ultimately are going to have to make a choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump in November. They're still holding out hope for some miracle that one or both of them are not on the top of the ticket in November.
And this has presented a real challenge for Joe Biden, because voters view Joe Biden as their number one concern right now, because he is the incumbent President. He is who is in charge of things like immigration and the economy right now, both issues that voters demand more from the President on.
So, at this debate, I think it's really essential for Joe Biden to contrast himself, as Margie said, with Donald Trump, prove that he is up to the task of being President for four more years, because many of these swing voters and even some Democratic voters have concerns about Joe Biden's age. It's not something that he is going to be able to change, but he can prove that he can get past the dementia bar that Donald Trump and Republicans have put on him.
And so, I think ultimately, what voters are going to want to expect and see is that there are two people that they're going to have to ultimately make a choice for in November. And this is going to be the first time that they're going to really have to wrestle with the fact that these are their choices.
HILL: John, I am fascinated by that, the fact that you say that so many people were four months out, have not internalized, have not come to grips with the fact that these are their choices. What kind of miracle are they hoping for? They're hoping that one of them -- they really think there could be a change at the top of one of these tickets?
CONWAY: Yeah. This is starting to change a little bit as we get closer to November. But, these voters are really dissatisfied with both Joe Biden and Donald Trump being on the top of the ticket. They're holding out hope that something could happen at the convention, or maybe someone on the Democratic side steps up and replaces Joe Biden at the top of the ticket. Obviously, this isn't going to happen. But, when these voters are so dissatisfied with their candidates, they're holding out hope for something to happen, because they don't want to have to make this choice in November.
That's why I think this debate happening now is really important for Joe Biden, because it's going to be the first time that he is on the stage with Donald Trump, and these voters are going to see both of them together, and it's going to sink in that nothing is going to happen, nothing is going to be shaken up at the conventions that these voters are ultimately going to have to make a choice come November.
HILL: Margie, it's interesting. Sometimes, a lot of what we see in terms of the campaigning and the messages that are put out from both sides of the aisle is about vote for me, right? A vote for me is really a vote against the other guy. But, there is a school of thought that there needs to be better messaging. It's not just a vote against this, what I see as a terrible thing from candidate X. It has to be more of an incentive to vote for something that candidate Y will bring. Do you see that happening in this election cycle?
OMERO: It's an interesting question. It's a good question. I mean, first of all, the stakes are so high. And so, I think it's important to make that contrast.
[11:50:00]
And we know what Donald Trump will be like. I hear in focus groups, people say, what I want to hear is that Donald Trump is going to change how he talks to people and like keep his mouth shut sometimes and get off Twitter and get off social media and try to be -- bring people together, things that are not going to happen, like just things that are -- that show no interest in doing. So, I think it's important to remind people of what we don't want to go back to. I think that that's -- I wouldn't say that that's not important that people should only focus on positive. It's important to remind people what the stakes are.
At the same time, I do think you're hearing from the Biden administration and the Biden campaign, and it's important to reiterate the accomplishments that have come through under the Biden administration, investment in manufacturing jobs, or lowering prescription drug costs for seniors on Medicare and things like insulin, the bipartisan infrastructure act, more money in people's wallets, like those kinds of things, making sure we're taxing the wealthy and the plans for what's next.
And from Trump, what you're hearing is a lot of the past, his grievances, complaints about what's been happening and his election denialism and he is feeling aggrieved, and that's like those were old days. He is playing his old (inaudible). So, that's the part that I think is -- voters are going to want to really see, a little bit more positive messaging, and they're getting that from the Biden campaign.
HILL: Margie Omero, John Conway, great to have both of you with us tonight. Enjoy the debate. OMERO: Thank you.
HILL: Well, CNN's debate, of course, happening this evening. How will it play out? What are the rules that both candidates have agreed to? We'll give you all the details on the other side of this break.
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HILL: So, one more thing before we leave you this hour. There will be some important differences tonight compared to previous presidential debates. So, how about we walk through how this debate will work? The campaigns knew about this. They looked at it ahead of time. Remember, all of these sort of rules and parameters, the campaigns both agreed to all of this when they agreed to do the debate. So, what did they agree to? Here is Phil Mattingly and Victor Blackwell to show you.
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PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF U.S. DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to the set of the CNN presidential debate. We want to give our viewers a sense of the rules of the debate so that when they watch it, they can understand how President Biden and President Trump will be engaging with each other. Just after 9 p.m. Eastern, President Biden will enter from the right side of your screen. President Trump will enter from the left side of your screen. The podiums are eight feet apart. Directly across from them, the moderators, CNN's Jake Tapper and Dana Bash.
Now, a reminder, this is a television studio. There is no audience. Candidates will have two minutes to answer questions and one minute for responses and rebuttals. At the moderators' discretion, there may be an additional minute for follow-ups, clarifications or responses. So, how does a candidate know how much time is left to speak? Attached to the cameras in the studio and in the candidates' field of view are the timing lights. When the lights show yellow, there are 15 seconds left in a candidate's answer or response. When the lights flash red, there are five seconds left. And when the display is solid red, the time is up. At that point, the candidates' microphone will be turned off and the other candidate will have their microphone turned on.
My colleague Victor Blackwell has more on that.
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Phil. If we go behind the podiums, you can see two green lights. When they're on, they signal to the candidate his microphone is on. When the green lights are off, they signal to the candidate his microphone is off. Now, I want to give you a sense of what it will look like for viewers at home if a candidate, whose microphone is off, interrupts a candidate whose microphone is on.
[11:55:00]
So, I will be standing at one podium and I'll ask Phil to come in and take the other podium. And so, let's say I'm answering a question. My light is green and I'm speaking. Phil's microphone is off and his green lights are not illuminated. He is going to interrupt me as I'm speaking. And this is what it will sound like. My volume remains constant while Phil's interruption can be difficult to understand.
MATTINGLY: Let's try the opposite. My microphone is now on. Victor's microphone is off, and he is going to interrupt me. My volume remains constant, while Victor's interruption can be difficult to understand. We should note, by agreeing to participate in this debate, both campaigns and candidates have also agreed to abide by these rules. The CNN presidential debate airs live at 9 p.m. Eastern.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: And you can catch it live right here, as Phil just said. If that timing, perhaps you're an international viewer, perhaps that timing is a little rough for you, don't worry. We have you covered. A first replay coming your way Friday morning 7 a.m. London time. That's of course 2 p.m. In Hong Kong, and then again at 7 p.m. London time on Friday, 10 p.m. in Abu Dhabi.
Thanks so much for joining me this hour. I'm Erica Hill in New York. Stick with CNN. One World is up next.
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