Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Rudy Giuliani Disbarred in New York; Violent Protests in Kenya; Fallout Continues Following Supreme Court Ruling on Presidential Immunity. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired July 02, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:01:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Top of the hour here. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Erica Hill in New York.

This morning, more fallout from the Supreme Court's blockbuster ruling that grants Donald Trump and other presidents criminal immunity for official acts while in office.

The court's conservative majority delivering that historic decision over the federal charges, which accuse Donald Trump of trying to overturn the 2020 election. President Biden warning, if Trump returns to the White House, he will be unleashed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This nation was founded on the principle that there are no kings in America. Each, each of us is equal before the law. No one, no one is above the law, not even the president of the United States.

With today's Supreme Court decision on presidential immunity, that fundamentally changed. For all -- for all practical purposes, today's decision almost certainly means that there are virtually no limits on what a president can do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining me now, Biden campaign senior adviser and spokesperson Adrienne Elrod.

Adrienne, good to see you this morning.

There is some hope among Democrats that this ruling will, in fact, light a fire under voters, or at the very least distract them from last week's debate. Realistically here, what can the president do? What would he do in a second term? Would he push to expand the Supreme Court?

ADRIENNE ELROD, BIDEN CAMPAIGN SENIOR SPOKESPERSON: Well, I certainly don't want to get in front of the president's own words on that, but I think you hit the nail on the head, Erica. This is a truly terrifying moment that we have seen. We're seeing in

America that a president of the United States can effectively have immunity on a number of fronts. We are seeing the Supreme Court, which Donald Trump put three conservative justices on the court, which are ruling on a lot of these decisions, in a favor that is not congruent with where the American people stand.

We're constantly seeing 6-3 rulings on this court. And it's important to note, Erica, that the next president of the United States could pick two more Supreme Court justices on this court. So, there's a lot at stake.

And when you're looking at the contrast in this election, you saw President Biden from the White House tonight really laying out there -- or last night laying out to the American people what's at stake, what this ruling could mean, how dangerous it is, especially if Donald Trump comes back into the White House, what he could do with this type of immunity. It's truly terrifying.

And, again, this is a reason why President Biden is running for reelection. He's the only person who beat Donald Trump. He has -- he's built a broad coalition that is necessary to beat him again. And it's critically important that the American people understand what the contrast is and what's at stake.

HILL: For the American people, for a number of people, there are still concerns on the heels of last week's CNN debate about the president's mental fitness.

In fact, we're also hearing from lawmakers more now. Congressman Mike Quigley, when asked this morning if the president should step aside, said very clearly, it needs to be Joe Biden's decision, but he followed up with this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): We have to be honest with ourselves that it wasn't just a horrible night. But I won't go beyond that out of my respect and understanding of President Joe Biden, a very proud person who has served us extraordinarily well for 50 years. But it's his decision.

I just want him to appreciate at this time just how much it impacts not just his race, but all the other races coming in November.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Congressman Quigley concerned about the impact there on downballot races, but it also sounds like he is very clearly concerned that this was not, as many -- in Biden world have claimed, this was not just one night, Adrienne.

ELROD: Yes, well, a couple of things.

First of all, you heard President Biden say in North Carolina at a rousing rally on Friday that he's not the good debater -- that he's not as good of a debater as he once was. He made that very clear, but he also said he tells the truth.

And then he laid into all the lies that Donald Trump said on that debate stage. And, Erica, we put out information that you may have seen over the weekend showing that. And our own data shows that a lot of independent voters have had major concerns about the lies that Donald Trump said on that stage, lying about January 6, lying about women's reproductive health, lying about being a dictator on day one, which he's made very clear he would do if he gets back into the White House.

[11:05:08]

So, a lot of our voters that we saw in our data have major concerns about Donald Trump. We also put out a polling memo yesterday from our chief pollster, Geoff Garin, making it clear that the polls that we see internally are essentially the same.

We don't really get into the horse race here, but we do want to make sure that the American people knows -- know what is at stake in this election, understand how dangerous it would be for Donald Trump to get back from the White House.

And, look, I also want to make it clear. I said this earlier. Joe Biden is the only person and President Joe Biden is the only person who'd beaten Donald Trump. He's the only person who can defeat him again, because of the broad coalition that he's built on this campaign and that continues to remain intact.

He has people like -- progressives like Senator Sanders and AOC who are very supportive. And then you have got conservatives like Adam Kinzinger, who just endorsed us, and Geoff Duncan, former lieutenant governor from Georgia.

So we are the ones who have built this robust coalition. This is the coalition that is going to stay intact and make sure that Donald Trump is defeated in November.

HILL: There are still, though, questions. And I'm going to keep asking you just because we know the questions are out there.

And, specifically, you talk about lawmakers. You also have Democratic Senator Peter Welch of Vermont, who says that the campaign has had what he calls a "dismissive attitude for people who are raising questions about the president's mental acuity and his fitness for a second term."

Are there actual discussions that are happening with the people who are raising the concerns? Because it is the voters raising concerns, but it's also -- more and more, we're seeing lawmakers.

ELROD: No, there are not discussions. President Biden is staying in this race.

HILL: So, this is not being addressed at all?

ELROD: He's running. He's the Democratic nominee, and he will continue to be.

But what I will tell you is, he's been on the phone. He, of course, wants to make sure that lawmakers are reassured, that governors and mayors are reassured across the country. So he's been on the phone having these conversations.

And we on the campaign are moving full speed ahead, making sure that the American people understand what is at stake, how dangerous it would be if somebody who wants to rule as a dictator on day one is someone who has said, if he loses the election, there will be a bloodbath, somebody who has stripped away the rights of millions of women across this country when it comes to their reproductive health, somebody who is going to stifle our freedoms and our rights if he becomes president again.

That person is Donald Trump. And we are making sure on this campaign and President Biden is making sure that Americans understand what's at stake.

HILL: So I will note that Congresswoman Debbie Dingell told me last night that she would -- she does feel the campaign needs to listen to her a little bit more, needs to listen to lawmakers, to people in their individual states.

Look, there are concerns, Carl Bernstein's new reporting, which I'm sure you have seen, marked incidents in the last six months of cognitive decline and physical infirmity, according to those close to the president.

I know the campaign, according to our reporting, is considering more unscripted events for the president, potentially a big sit-down interview, potentially a press conference. There is a difference with those events. Where does that planning stand? When will we see the president do that?

ELROD: Well, first of all, the president is speaking from the White House today about climate, a very important issue that he has been historic on when it comes to passing historic climate change legislation.

You're going to see him out on the campaign trail, of course, in the coming days and the coming weeks. We're going to continue to get him out there, to go to battleground states, to really make it clear what's at stake in this election. He's going to continue to go to these states, talk to voters, have these conversations.

And, Erica, I want to just think -- sometimes, I think we lose sight of this, when we're talking about the day-to-day machinations on a campaign.

President Biden has accomplished more as president of the United States in the first three-and-a-half years of his presidency than the previous presidents in 50, 60 years, four major economic bills, the first black woman on the Supreme Court, student loan debt relief.

I mean, we -- the list goes on and on. You only get that stuff done if you know what you're doing, if you know how to work with lawmakers, if you know how to work in a bipartisan manner. That is what President Biden has done. His supporters know that. His colleagues on Capitol Hill know that.

And he will continue to do what needs to be done for the American people as president of the United States.

HILL: Adrienne, I only have time for a yes or a no, but will the president be taking more questions from reporters moving forward?

ELROD: I think you're going to hear him talking to voters. I think you're going to hear him out on the campaign trail. And he will continue to draw the contrasts and have these communications with the American people.

HILL: OK, but not necessarily taking more questions from reporters. I didn't get an answer to that.

We are out of time, Adrienne. Always good to have you with us. We look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you.

ELROD: Thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HILL: The Supreme Court's immunity ruling not just impacting the former president's federal election subversion case. Donald Trump's legal team is also using it now to challenge his hush money trial conviction here in the state of New York, arguing that Donald Trump's official acts, which are now immune, were used as evidence against him, and the ruling found they can't be.

[11:10:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILL SCHARF, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: What we have in New York is a situation where a substantial number of official acts of the presidency, things that we believe are official acts, were used as evidence to support the charges in that New York trial.

We believe that that corrupts that trial, that that indicates that jury verdict needs to be overturned, and, at the very least, we deserve a new trial, where those immune acts will not come into evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So that sentencing, of course, was supposed to happen a week from Thursday, Donald Trump's legal team hoping to delay it.

And we're just getting some more information on that, the Manhattan DA's office now weighing in.

I want to go to my colleague, Kara Scannell, who has more on this breaking news.

So, Kara, where does the DA's office stand here?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So the Manhattan district attorney's office has just weighed in, and they say that they don't oppose postponing the sentencing in order to allow Trump's legal team to brief this issue following the Supreme Court's decision.

So, what the DA's office is saying is that they still think Trump's legal team's position is without merit, but they said they don't oppose the briefing. So they are saying they would agree to a briefing schedule where Trump's team would file their briefs first.

And their -- the DA's office briefs would be due on July 24. Now, Trump's team is asking for oral arguments. So, if the judge agrees to any of this, then the oral argument could follow. So we're looking at Trump's sentencing potentially being postponed into August.

But, ultimately, this is up for the judge, Juan Merchan, to decide. He has not weighed in on this, but since the DA's office is not objecting to it, it is possible and likely that he would postpone the sentencing.

Now, we also obtained the letter that Trump's legal team sent to the judge, who are saying that they wanted to brief this issue following the Supreme Court's decision on presidential immunity.

And what they're highlighting are specific parts of testimony and evidence that came into the trial. Among them, they said Oval Office conversations. One piece of testimony that the jury heard was Michael Cohen saying that he met with Donald Trump in the Oval Office and that's where they discussed the reimbursement scheme.

So they're arguing that that sort of evidence should not have come in and should not have come before the jury -- the jury in this case. Now, they had initially raised this question of whether evidence should come in over presidential immunity, because they had already knew they were challenging it.

But the judge in the case said they had done it too close to trial. So he didn't even consider that ahead of time. Now the question is before him now that the Supreme Court has ruled, and we will see what he does.

But the next step here is going to come from the judge to see if he does adopt the schedule that the prosecutors are OK with and if he does then postpone Trump's sentencing to some time in the future -- Erica.

HILL: And they remind me that what prosecutors are asking for is a deadline of July 24?

SCANNELL: They want their briefs to be due by July 24. So then the -- then it will be in the judge's hands. He will decide whether he thinks there's any merit to this. He could decide to hold oral arguments. But the timeline from then on

is up to the judge. Now, once he issues his ruling, assuming he sides with the prosecution, then the sentencing would go forward. Of course, if he sided with Trump's legal team and overturned the conviction or said a new trial was needed, then Trump sentencing would be put off because it wouldn't be required.

HILL: Right. Whew, a lot to get to there. All right, well, we will be waiting. I appreciate the update on the breaking news, Kara. Thank you.

Still ahead here this hour: President Biden set to speak about Hurricane Beryl and the other major storms expected this season. There are more questions this morning about potentially more public appearances from the president, as Democrats worry about the impact of last week's debate.

Plus, Jamie Foxx now talking more about waking up in a hospital bed with no memory of how or why he was there.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:17:47]

HILL: Happening right now, a new round of violent anti-government protests rocking Kenya's capital.

At least 39 people have been killed, hundreds injured after two weeks of clashes with police. Protesters are angry over proposed tax changes. Those changes have been withdrawn, but, as you can see there, the unrest remains.

CNN's Larry Madowo is in Nairobi and has been covering this for us for the last several weeks.

Larry, what is happening around you today? And what are we hearing from protesters?

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's become a lot quieter than earlier in the day, when we were here and protesters were getting tear-gassed by police, who were making sure that they don't gather. It's in the evening.

This is supposed to be a busy street, but it's all deserted, and police are still out here making sure that there's nobody who's gathering one more time. This is the third straight week of protests. And we have seen a lot of violence on these streets.

There's been a lot of criticism of police of using tear gas and water cannon against peaceful protesters. And it took the Kenya High Court barring the police from doing that to try and quiet it down a little bit. It's not completely done.

But these protests began as opposition to a controversial finance bill. It's since become about the government of President Ruto himself. President William Ruto is well-respected internationally. You saw the White House roll out the red carpet for him a few weeks ago, but, here at home, he is facing significant opposition, especially from the young people upset about corruption in his government, about the high cost of living, about the extravagant lifestyle of some of his ministers.

And that's why you have seen for three straight weeks young people coming out here on the streets braving tear gas and water cannon and sometimes live ammunition; 39 people have been killed when these police -- when these protests turned violence.

And that's why police have made all this effort today to try and keep the streets empty and quiet and clear for people to go about their businesses. But there's still that residual anger about the 39 people who were killed by police.

We saw last Tuesday -- on CNN, we were reporting as police were shooting largely at unarmed protesters. And we have heard some of their stories. It's been a heartbreaking scene in the country. And there's still some anger about that.

[11:20:04]

HILL: Absolutely.

Larry, I'm glad you're there and staying on it for us. We will continue to check in with you. Thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HILL: More breaking news this hour. Never a dull moment here on a Tuesday.

Donald Trump's former attorney Rudy Giuliani, we're just learning, has been disbarred in New York.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is with me, as well seen a legal analyst Joey Jackson.

Katelyn, what more do we know about this?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: ... the lawyer after the 2020 election.

This is the Supreme Court in New York. They have been looking at a disciplinary case against Rudy Giuliani for his service as a lawyer for several months, even years now. And, finally, after suspending him -- he was unable to practice law for some time -- he is now formally disbarred.

This is the person who was not just the mayor of New York. He was the top federal prosecutor in Manhattan, deeply well respected by the bar there, clearly someone who had great influence over prosecutions when he was there. Now, in recent years on the defense side, he had picked up what Donald Trump wanted to do and took it into court. And in this opinion that is now being issued by the New York Supreme

Court, they're saying that all of these charges are about Rudy Giuliani pushing false and misleading statements as an attorney for Donald Trump and his campaign after the 2020 election to courts, to lawmakers, and to the public at large, and that nothing that Giuliani has said in these proceedings that he has faced in the attorney discipline system have made it seem as if he were acting in good faith or that he had the knowledge that these things were actually true.

And so, thus, this is Rudy Giuliani formally losing his ability to practice law, effective immediately, disbarred in New York, and that will be reflected in any court all over the country -- Erica.

HILL: I mean, that is really something.

Joey, you have practiced law in the state of New York for a number of years. I mean, just walk us through in broader context, right? And as Katelyn alluded to, he went from the mayor of New York. We all remember Rudy Giuliani, certainly in the days after 9/11. We remember how much he figured on a national stage for many people. So many people were familiar with him.

Just talk to me about that fall and the change that we have seen over the last couple of decades.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it's very sad no matter how you slice it, what political party you're on, et cetera.

Rudy Giuliani has been a fixture in New York for quite some time. I could recall him running for mayor the very first time against a person by the name of David Dinkins. He lost. David Dinkins was the mayor at the time.

Prior to him running for mayor, of course, Erica, he was the U.S. attorney, that is, the United States attorney of the Southern District, where he prosecuted a lot of high-level crimes and really garnered a lot of favor from the public for sticking up for people and really for going after even the mob.

There was no one off-limits. He would carry people out of their offices in cuffs as the U.S. attorney. And that really catapulted his profile. But, at that particular time, Erica, just walking you through that, what had occurred was that he was revered in New York, and that's what allowed him to run for mayor.

And he didn't give up. After losing to David Dinkins, he then -- who I worked for a brief period of time, he then -- that is, Rudy Giuliani -- won. He ran again, won, became mayor, and did an exceptional job, cleaned up the streets, was very law and order, was ethical beyond reproach, I think was the conventional wisdom.

He walked the talk, talked the walk, did what he needed to do. And I'm just not sure what happened thereafter. I know he built his business after leaving the mayoralty. We should note that he handled 9/11 with such grace. He was known as America's mayor for quite some time thereafter because of the manner and the leadership that he brought to bear that related to the tough times the city was enduring.

And there was even discussion about extending his term, so that he could preside over that. And so then you had him, I guess, caught up in another circumstance. And that was this circumstance relating to the former president.

And listen, Erica, as lawyers, we need to and continue to push the envelope. We have to make arguments that sometimes may not be directly in keeping with the law, but at least are supported by good faith, have fact -- a factual basis, and maybe they're supported by public policy. Laws change all the time.

And they change because of the great arguments that lawyers make. And they change because society changes and things that were in contemplation when a law began may not be in contemplation as the society evolves. But you cannot -- repeat -- cannot just give baseless allegations to anyone, particularly a court of law.

It can't happen. And so after this six-day liability hearing as it related to his license, 16 of the charges were sustained. And so, last thing, Erica. In law, there's -- perfection eludes us all, but we do the best we can. And we argue -- and Katelyn mentioned this -- in good faith, right?

[11:25:05]

And so the reality is that, if you don't make a good-faith argument, that that's a problem. You just make things up, that's a problem. And if you have baseless allegations, that's a problem. And so he was held accountable.

And when you're held accountable, you lose your license. So, sad without question, for all he did and for all he was, but you know what? This is -- this is where it lands when you do things you're not supposed to do.

HILL: Yes.

Joey Jackson, Katelyn Polantz, appreciate you both being ready and available for us on that breaking news, again, Rudy Giuliani disbarred in the state of New York. Thank you both.

Still to come here: Hurricane Beryl now decimating parts of the Caribbean. It is the earliest Category 5 Atlantic hurricane on record, and scientists warn this is a very bad sign of what's to come.

How President Biden plans to tackle climate extremes during these crucial weeks of campaign season.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Breaking news: CNN has learned some Democratic governors are now seeking a meeting with the White House.