Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Biden And Trump Campaigns Hit The Ground In Pennsylvania; Interview With former Ohio Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan; Gaza Officials: At Least 90 Killed In Strikes On Khan Younis Camp; Reports: Fitness Guru Richard Simmons Dead At 76; Trump Just Days Away From GOP Convention In Wisconsin And Set To Reveal V.P. Pick & What He Would Do With 2nd Term; Poland Considers Downing Russian Missiles Over Ukraine; First F-16 Fighter Jets Headed To Ukraine; U.S., Germany Foil Russian Plot To Assassinate Arms Manufacturer. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired July 13, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:59:59]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean in New York.

And both presidential campaigns hitting the ground in Pennsylvania today in an effort to win over crucial swing state voters there. Donald Trump holding a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania tonight, while Vice President Kamala Harris, on the other side of the state targeting voters at an Asian-American and Pacific Islander event in Philadelphia, while first lady Jill Biden is in Pittsburgh.

CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is joining us now.

And Priscilla, what more can you tell us about this campaign blitz across a very, very important state, Pennsylvania?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: An important state at an important moment. Of course, the president is trying to make sure that he and his campaign have the Democratic Party behind him because there have been multiple questions over the last several days of whether or not he is a viable candidate for this election year.

Now, while that campaign blitz was ongoing, the president was working the phones. We know he had one meeting already with progressive lawmakers. And another call is currently ongoing where he is listening to what they have to say and what concerns they may harbor about him going forward and going up against former President Donald Trump.

Of course, this comes after he was in Michigan yesterday, also a very important state for him and trying to convince voters and target former President Donald Trump, drawing the stark contrast between him and his record.

But perhaps the clearest indicator of just how difficult the last few days have been came from Vice President Kamala Harris during her rally earlier this afternoon. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We always knew this election would be tough. And the past few days have been a reminder that running for president of the United States is never easy. Nor should it be.

But one thing we know about our President Joe Biden, he is a fighter and he is the first to say when you get knocked down, you get right back up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALVAREZ: Now that has certainly been the argument from the president and his campaign as they try to move forward from that disastrous debate performance last month.

Now the president will be going back on the campaign trail next week, going to Texas and Nevada where he is going to hopefully or what he hopes is try to put those concerns to rest, try to calm the nerves within his party to move forward and particularly provide that counterprogramming to the Republican National Convention, which will also be underway early next week.

DEAN: That's right. Priscilla Alvarez for us in Washington. Thanks so much.

Let's go now to CNN's Annie Grayer, who is following and reporting on these calls that Biden has been holding with Democratic lawmakers this afternoon. One of them Annie, happening right now, what are you learning?

ANNIE GRAYER, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: That's right, Jess. The call with more moderate Democrats who are running in a lot of competitive races this fall are currently speaking with the president and a lot -- notably, a lot of the 19 Democrats who have -- in the House who have called on President Joe Biden to step aside are on that call. So we're waiting for details come out of that.

But the call earlier this afternoon that President Biden had with the more progressive wing of the House Democratic Caucus has wrapped up and the chair of that caucus, Pramila Jayapal, released a statement after that meeting.

She said, quote, "We spoke frankly to the president about our concerns and asked tough questions about the path forward. We appreciate his willingness to thoughtfully answer and address our members. As a caucus, we will continue working to do everything in our power to defeat Donald Trump and promote our proposition agenda."

So we are still reporting out the details of what happened in this private call, but the stakes are crucial here.

Biden has started his outreach directly to members on the Hill and they have been wanting this since his disastrous debate performance over two weeks ago. So the question now is, is Biden addressing these members directly going to be enough to stop the bleeding and stop this trickle of Democratic lawmakers coming out for him to step aside. We'll have to see.

Biden in one of his calls yesterday with the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, Democratic congressman Mike Levin said to the president directly on this call, I'm told, that it was his belief it was time for the president to step aside. Biden addressed those concerns directly.

So we are really getting to see the president trying to stop the bleeding firsthand and making his pitch directly to lawmakers. But we'll have to see if it's enough.

DEAN: All right. Annie Grayer for us. Thanks so much for that updated reporting. We appreciate it.

Also today, Donald Trump, back on the campaign trail as he prepares to become the official nominee at the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, now less than 48 hours away.

[17:04:48]

DEAN: CNN's Alayna Treene is live at the rally in Butler, Pennsylvania where the former president will address that crowd tonight.

And Alayna, this is a big moment as Trump prepares to announce his vice-presidential pick and gets ready for the Republican National Convention. How is the Trump campaign feeling about the week ahead?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well look, they are very excited, from my conversations with them. They're ready to turn the attention back to Donald Trump and his own campaign.

Over the past few weeks, ever since the debate, Donald Trump has been uncharacteristically quiet. And that was a deliberate choice, I'm told by his top advisers.

They have wanted to let the handwringing around Joe Biden, as well as the questions coming from within his own party over whether or not he is fit to serve another four years to remain this story.

But he's going to be speaking in about an hour. I'm told, it's a little behind schedule here behind me. And then of course, on Monday is the kickoff to the Republican National Convention.

Now one big thing that we're all watching for Jessica is when will Donald Trump announced his vice-presidential running mate. And actually, from my conversations with his advisers, with those close to the former president it really is unclear at which point he is going to do that.

They view Monday evening. That is when Donald Trump will formally be nominated as the Republican Party's presidential nominee. That is the deadline that they're currently viewing for when he must announce, but it's still unclear when that time will come. I want you to take a listen to what Donald Trump said about this

yesterday on a radio station.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have some really, really good candidates and, you know, maybe leaning one way and that changes sometimes. You know, all of a sudden you've seen something that you like or you don't like, and you lean a little bit differently.

It's like a highly sophisticated version of the apprentice. Ultimately, it's more of an instinct. You know, you develop an instinct, but I like to know all the facts before the instinct kicks in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now Jessica also during that interview, he went on to praise the television appearances of Senator Tim Scott, Doug Burgum, Marco Rubio JD Vance, and other senators. He praised all of them during that interview, and those are all the same names that we've consistently been hearing that Donald Trump is considering for his VP pick.

Now each of them as well is slated to speak next week at the convention. We're also told several of Donald Trump's family members first, including both of his sons, Donald Trump Jr. and Eric will be speaking. There'll be some celebrity appearances, people like the president of the United Fighting Championship, the UFC president Dana White, as well as Amber Rose. All of these people coming out to kind of roll out the red carpet and really what I'm told Jess, is that they want to show a contrast with Democrats right now. They want to seem like the Republican Party is united behind Donald Trump at a time when you're not seeing as much unity within the Democratic Party, Jessica.

DIAMOND: All right. Alayna Treene on the trail for us in Butler, Pennsylvania. Alina, we will check back in with you in a little bit later.

Joining us now though, former Democratic Congressman from Ohio Tim Ryan.

And Congressman, thanks so much for being here with us this afternoon. We appreciate your --

(CROSSTALK)

TIM RYAN (D-OH), FORMER CONGRESSMAN: Thank you.

DIAMOND: You have called on Biden to step aside and said that Kamala Harris should run as the nominee, but we're here on July 13th. President Biden has been in Michigan. He says he's not going anywhere. What now?

RYAN: I'm not sure. I mean, I think we've got to keep some level perspective and I think we do have a little bit of time still ahead of us.

You know, my concern is that when you look at I think it was the memo that even the Biden campaign sent out. You know, they basically narrowed the race down to Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania; down over five in Pennsylvania, almost one in Michigan and 2.5 points in Wisconsin.

And here's the -- here's the big point the Trump campaign has not spent any money in these states. So they're going to take the clips from the -- from the interview with George Stephanopoulos, from the mistakes that he made the other night with Trump and Putin things. And then all the way back to the debate.

Those were all going to have $500 million to $1 billion behind them in those swing states. And that's going to do, I think a significant amount of damage.

And so I love Joe Biden. I'm just saying like we have got to be very, very careful what we're doing here as a party when the country is dying for something new and generational change that I think Kamala Harris would provide us.

And there's a new op-ed in "The New York Times from Senator Bernie Sanders today called "Joe Biden for President". And he writes in part, "Despite my disagreements with him on particular issues, he has been the most effective president in the modern history of our country and is the strongest candidate to defeat Donald Trump." And then he adds later, "It's time for Democrats to stop up the bickering and the nitpicking."

Do you think your nitpicking?

[17:09:49]

RYAN: I hope so. I mean that's our -- that's our responsibility. I mean look, it's not like we don't have ample evidence to nitpick or to be upset about or to try to comprehend and understand how we got here.

I don't disagree with Senator Sanders that President Biden and Vice President Harris have an outstanding record on reindustrialization, chip manufacturing, electric vehicles, batteries -- all the stuff that we want to campaign on, fighting for the choice issue for women.

We've finally reindustrialized the country. We've been complaining about this for 50 years. We're finally starting to do it again.

But the problem is it's not going to be about that. It's not even going to be about Donald Trump. The next four months are going to be about Biden's age and his ability and every gaffe, every misstatement is going to just sink that message that we have.

And the country's dying. This is my main point, really. The country is dying for new leadership. They want to get rid of both Biden and Trump but they can't get rid of Trump and we can start anew.

They're tired of all the fights. We've been doing this since Vietnam. The toxic politics, we need to put that all in the past, put the era of Trump behind us, and move into a new age where we dominate artificial intelligence, dominate the blockchain, heal our veterans with new ways of healing trauma.

There's so many ideas in the country, we can't even get to that because we're talking about this. And so I think someone like Kamala Harris would kick Trump's rear-end and debates and present that new generational leadership that's so compelling

DEAN: And so I have a two-part question to end on. One, have you have you told the president this? Have you talked to him?

And then secondly, at what point do Democrats have to figure this out, in your opinion?

RYAN: No, I have not talked to the president directly, other than you know, writing the op-ed that I wrote a couple of weeks ago.

And you know, this got to get wrapped up, you know, before the convention, I think sooner rather than later.

I think that Kamala's such a compelling candidate. The more we would be able to get her into those swing states. I think, you know, you put Georgia and Arizona, North Carolina, all of a sudden they come back online and maybe are gettable for us and winnable for us.

But she would need to campaign and we would need to get out there and show this new face for a new generation of leadership for the country.

So sooner rather than later, every day that ticks off is, you know, three or four more stops in those swing states. And that puts us further and further behind.

So you know, this is not personal, being loyal is important, but part of being loyal is being honest. And I'm just trying to be honest and I know its ruffled some feathers but this is the way I see it.

I live in Ohio. Normal people are going to see those ads and the narrative is out there. Even the other day, 20 million people watched the press conference. Right now, as of today, 80 million people saw the clips of the two main gaffes.

That's hard to unwind because it fits into the broader narrative from the debate, from Stephanopoulos and they're just going to keep adding.

And I just want to remind my fellow Democrats there's going to be $1 billion behind these ads. We're not going to be talking about re- industrialization, you know. We're not going to get our message out. We're not -- it's going to be hard to talk about protecting the government from getting into a woman's bedroom, telling her what to do with her health care decisions.

If we want to get on that message, I think we have to make the tough decision, not for anybody to step down, but for Democratic leaders to step up.

DEAN: All right. Former Congressman Tim Ryan, we appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

RYAN: Thank you so much.

DEAN: Still ahead, Israel says it targeted Hamas is military chief in an airstrike that Palestinian officials say killed at least 90 people.

We have just received an update from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on that strike. And we will bring it to you.

And Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy now coming to the defense of President Biden. Ahead, hear what he had to say about Biden's "President Putin" gaffe.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:13:58]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: Details are still emerging about today's massive Israeli strikes on a humanitarian zone in the Khan Younis region of Gaza. Palestinian officials now saying at least 90 people were killed and 300 injured.

CNN cannot independently verify those numbers and the Hamas-run government does not distinguish between civilians and militants in their numbers.

Take a look at this video. It captures the moment when one of the strikes hit.

Israel says it was targeting the military chief of Hamas who is alleged to be one of the masterminds behind the October 7th attacks. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says, they still aren't certain whether the target was killed

CNN's Jeremy Diamond has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A ground-shaking explosion, a tremendous cloud of smoke and a vast crater left in its wake. The Israeli military says it deployed this devastating force in an attempt to kill Hamas' top military commander Mohammed Deif, the number two Hamas official in Gaza and one of the masterminds of the October 7 terrorist attack.

As body after body is rushed out of the wreckage, the Israeli military is still working to assess whether the Qassam brigades commander was actually killed in the attack. Hamas says he wasn't.

"What have we done, oh God, to deserve this airstrike," this woman cries. "We were sheltering, where is the safety?"

At least 90 people were killed and 300 wounded in the strike, according to the Palestinian ministry of health, which does not differentiate between civilians and combatants. [17:19:52]

DIAMOND: The Israeli military says Deif and other Hamas militants including the commander of the Khan Younis brigade, were in a compound in this once-wooded area in the Al-Mawasi humanitarian zone.

A short walk away from the crater, thousands of displaced Palestinians lived in tents.

"There were about five explosions or six horrifying explosions," this man says. "There were wars in my past and I was displaced. But I had never seen such explosions in my entire life."

The Israeli military declined to say what kind of munitions it used in this strike. But a weapons expert tells CNN this video, geolocated at the scene shows part of a U.S. made joint direct attack munition used to guide large bombs to their targets.

Deif has been among Israel's most wanted for years. In 1996, he was the bomb-maker behind four suicide bombings in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv that killed 65 people.

Since then, Israel has tried to kill him multiple times. He managed to survive this assassination attempt in 2002 and another in 2014, which killed his wife and children now.

Now at Nasr Hospital, more bodies are being brought out of the morgue and prepared for burial. Among them is 13-year-old Hamed (ph). He was in a tent with his sister when he was killed by the blast.

"They should have taken me instead of you," his sister wails over his body. "My love," she cries, "my love." Another child torn from this world, another family ripped apart.

And Israeli officials meanwhile are making the case that any civilian casualties resulting from this strike should be placed at the feet of Mohammed Deif and Hamas for being in this humanitarian zone, as the Israeli military claims.

But once again, we do not yet have confirmation from the Israeli military, from the Israeli government that Mohammed Deif has in fact been killed in this strike.

I am however, learning new details about the days leading up to this strike. And that's because I'm told that it was just in the last few days that the Israeli security and intelligence establishment began reviewing intelligence indicating that there would be an opportunity to carry out this strike and kill Hamas' number two official in Gaza.

But it was only in the last 24 hours or so that that window of opportunity began to come into clearer focus.

Late last night, the Israeli prime minister green-lighting this operation. But overnight there were multiple consultations, multiple -- multiple discussions between the defense minister Yoav Gallant, the head of the Israeli armed forces, the Lieutenant General Herzi Halevi, as well as top Shin Bet officials. That's Israels internal security service.

They were reviewing the intelligence, ensuring that the full picture was there to be able to carry out this strike.

One of the key questions for them was assessing whether or not any hostages were in the area. And it was only once they had the confidence that there were not hostages, that they were able to proceed with the strike.

But now the key question, Jessica, will be what will be the impact on this on those ongoing ceasefire and hostage release negotiations?

So far, no indication that it will impact those its talks. But of course, this is a very significant strike and certainly would be extremely -- an extremely significant moment if indeed Mohammed Deif has been taken out, Jessica.

DEAN: All right.

Jeremy Diamond for us in Jerusalem. Thanks so much.

Still ahead tonight, we are waiting on remarks from former president Donald Trump in Pennsylvania. His rally coming just two days from the beginning of the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee up next.

What a second Trump term could mean for the federal court system nationwide and its potential impact on you.

[17:23:51]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: We have some sad breaking news to bring you now.

Richard Simmons, the fitness celebrity who was defined by his uplifting spirit, has died. That news was confirmed by ABC, who cited his representative. Simmons was most known for his aerobic exercise video, including 1988's "Sweating to the Oldies" and its subsequent installments in 1990 and 1991.

CNN's Stephanie Elam has more on his life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD SIMMONS, FITNESS GURU: Bang your knees.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know the hot pants, you know the hair. But Richard Simmons true legacy is in the lives he touched selling millions of exercise videos and inspiring millions to try to work out with his simple moves and humble disposition.

SIMMONS: I'm not particularly handsome. I don't have like the greatest body. Sometimes a very low self-body image, but I know how to help people. That is my trump card.

ELAM: This was the Jane Fonda video era where chiseled abs and sculptured glutes made a commodity out of picture-perfect health.

But Richard Simmons found an untapped niche. No matter your size, age, or fitness level his workouts were for everyone. His trademark zest, smiling through adversity.

Born in Louisiana in 1948, Simmons spent his childhood battling the social isolation that came with obesity and spiraling into a dependence on diet pills as a young man.

[17:29:52]

SIMMONS: I was 200 pounds in the eighth grade. I was 268 pounds when I graduated high school. I am a compulsive eater and I did some terrible things to lose weight.

ELAM: Fed up with fad diets, the southern boy had big dreams and moved to Los Angeles. He opened an exercise studio catering to the severely overweight.

SIMMONS: Once I knew the formula and I used the formula, then I was able to give it to other people.

(SINGING)

ELAM: His aerobic series, "Sweating to the Oldies," flying off shelves, and launching him and to global superstar status.

(SINGING)

ELAM: His contagious energy propelling him into a new role, cultural juggernaut.

SIMMONS: That's it. You're doing fantastic.

ELAM: Then came repeated appearances on David Letterman.

SIMMONS: Do you remember that scene in "Lady and the Tramp" when they had a spaghetti?

DAVID LETTERMAN, FORMER HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN: Suddenly --

(LAUGHTER)

LETTERMAN: Suddenly, I'm not so hungry.

ELAM: A four-year run on "General Hospital."

SIMMONS: What is the worst thing in the whole world for you to eat?

CROWD: Chocolate!

SIMMONS: And what is the best thing to eat?

CROWD: Vegies.

ELAM: A "New York Times" bestseller. And even four years of his own nationally syndicated TV show.

Then something changed. Simmons no longer craved the spotlight, going from a hectic tour schedule across the country to a more solitary life at his Los Angeles mansion.

In a rare and emotional interview at the time, Simmons showed that his desire to help people hadn't changed.

BROOKE BALDWIN, FORMER CNN CORRESPONDENT: What do you say to yourself in the morning?

SIMMONS: I say try to help more people. When you're out of work, a dollar hamburger looks great. And when you get a divorce or lose a job, you really just don't want to take good care yourself.

But just remember, you're one of a kind. And God could have made you a butterfly that lasted three months, but he made you a human being.

ELAM: For his fans and those whose lives he changed, they will always remember the man who told them, "If I can do it, you can, too."

(SINGING)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:36:25]

DEAN: We are now less than 48 hours from the opening day of the Republican convention. And CNN is learning Donald Trump has held private meetings over the last several days with three of his top V.P. contenders.

However, sources telling CNN they do not believe the former president has offered the role to any particular candidate.

At rallies, Trump has been stressing the importance of cementing a conservative majority in the Supreme Court. And that may be just the beginning.

CNN's Phil Mattingly has more on what we could expect from a second Trump term.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(SINGING)

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): The cornerstone achievement of Donald Trump's first term legacy.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I totally transformed the federal judiciary.

MATTINGLY: That claim, supporters and opponents alike acknowledge is not hyperbole.

After 234 Trump-selected judicial nominees took seats on the most critical benches across the country, 54 of those reshaped the ideological makeup of the critical federal appeals courts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear?

MATTINGLY: And of course, the three who drove a generational shift in the highest court in the land.

TRUMP: Many presidents never get the opportunity to appoint a Supreme Court justice. I had three. They aren't going.

MATTINGLY: But as Trump drives toward a potential second term, one thing is clear, he's just getting started.

The two most conservative Supreme Court stalwarts, Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, could step aside due to age, clearing the way for Trump and his party to name two more lifetime appointees to the Supreme Court.

And for Trump, who relied heavily almost entirely on long-standing Republican legal philosophy in his first term, he's now made clear he would push sharply right in a second.

TRUMP: I will once again appoint rock-solid conservative judges to do what they have to do in the mold of justices.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito, great gentlemen and another great gentleman, Clarence Thomas.

MATTINGLY: Trump more than delivered on his 2016 campaign promises to name conservatives to the courts, as single-term appointments rivaled those of presidents who held office for twice as long as he did.

But legal scholars note, it's not just the number of Trump appointees. It's who he appointed that has had such a dramatic impact on the judiciary that will resonate for decades.

TRUMP: We'd like people in their 30s so they're there for 50 years or 40 years.

MATTINGLY: Trump's three Supreme Court nominees, all younger than 55 years old when he named them to the bench. Meaning his judges could have decades to shape rulings and policy across the country.

And the key common denominator amongst all of his picks, rock-ribbed conservative credentials.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Will you commit to voters tonight that religious liberty will be an absolute litmus test for anyone you appoint not just to the Supreme Court, but to all courts?

TRUMP: Yes, I would. MATTINGLY: That 2016 promise of conservative judicial appointments, especially following the death of Justice Antonin Scalia, helped solidify support for his candidacy from skeptical Republicans.

TRUMP: I, Donald John Trump --

MATTINGLY: Once in the White House, Trump then relied heavily on the council of advisors and outside groups to fill open seats with the help of then-Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): You know what my top priority is? I've made it very clear. It's the judiciary.

MATTINGLY: Working with the Republican-controlled Senate, Trump solidified that six-to-three conservative majority on the Supreme Court.

And the result has been dramatic, even with Trump no longer in the Oval Office. Roe versus Wade overturned. The EPA and other federal agencies stripped of some regulatory power.

[17:39:59]

And in a case deeply personal to Trump himself, a decision that granted the president near total immunity while in office.

Trump also successfully flipped three of the nation's 13 appeals courts to conservative majorities. One of the district court judges he appointed, Aileen Cannon, she's now responsible for overseeing his own criminal trial in Florida.

But Trump allies and detractors alike point to a less understood but very clear shift in the makeup of Trump's own appointments over the course of that first term.

A shift away from the powerful conservative legal establishment and toward lawyers who embraced a more expansive and, at times, legally tenuous view of executive power.

Now clear about their intent to seek retribution for Trump's own legal travails, forming the basis that allies plan to set the bar for nominations and administration lawyers alike.

TRUMP: When this election is over, based on what they've done, I would have every right to go after them.

MATTINGLY (on camera): And, Jessica, I think one of the most fascinating elements in terms of reporting this out, it is when you talk to Democrats who, to be very clear, following what Trump did in his four years, made it an absolute priority in the Biden administration and President Biden's White House to focus on their own nominees. Obviously, Supreme Court, on down.

And yet there's a recognition amongst Democrats that there are going to be open seats. There are going to be retirements that Trump could fill. And that could include the Supreme Court. You talk about the six-to-three conservative majority and just how dramatically that has reshaped things over the course of the last couple of years. Trump would be able to lock that in, potentially for decades to come.

That's something that Democrats, progressives, liberals across the board they candidly acknowledge are almost terrified of. And yet, it has not been a focal point of Biden's campaign up to this point,

Obviously, Democrats dealing with a lot of their own issues, right now.

But especially in the wake of 2016 and what Trump did in his first four years, I'm told from some Democrats expect that to be something that is focused on if they can figure out who exactly their candidate is in the weeks and months ahead --Jess?

DEAN: All Right. Phil Mattingly, with some excellent reporting there. Thanks so much.

Joining us now is pollster and communication strategist, Frank Luntz.

Frank, always great to have you on. Thanks for making time for us this afternoon.

I want to start first with some reporting from "The Washington Post" that Trump aides are working on Trump's image.

And they write, in part, "The intent is to soften his image and sidestep his false claims of a stolen election views on January 6, 2021, riot and the GOP debate over abortion, which millions of Americans have recoiled from as he seeks a return to the White House."

You spend a lot of time with voters as they are thinking about and processing who they might want to vote for in November. Do you think that this image softening that they're trying to do is working? Could it work? How are they viewing the former president at this point?

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER & COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST: Well, based on the segment that you just ran, it's interesting, because we've been focus- grouping and polling it over the last few weeks.

And the public does not want a politization of the civil service or politization of the judiciary. What they want is accountability. What they want and demand are results.

And they're looking for someone to basically take the politics out of government and put in a more efficient, more effective, and more accountable civil service judiciary and all the elements of government. So it's a really good question to ask right now.

And the public is very clear about this. As much as they agree with their side, and 45 percent on the right, 45 percent or on the left.

As much as they agree with that, they still want a sense that the judiciary, that the civil service, that the government overall, that the government actually works for them and provides results and takes the politics, partisanship, and polarization out of the federal government.

DEAN: And yet, the former president has been very open, and his allies, about wanting to use the federal government potentially against people who've been critical of him.

They have -- they have plans that are pretty political. Do you -- do you see the voters making that connection or no?

LUNTZ: I see the voters making the connection because it matters a lot to them, that even though it's not been a Biden focus and even though Trump has mentioned IT in his campaign rallies, the public is saying -- one of the reasons why the public is not running behind Joe Biden right now is that they feel that the government doesn't work for them.

And one of the reasons why Trump hasn't quite yet seal the deal is that they're afraid that he's going to put in his politics into how these things work.

The key right now is not the Trump base, which is significant. It's 40 - it's up to 40 percent. And it's not Biden's base, which is somewhere around 35 percent.

[17:45:06]

What matters, and it's only 4 percent of the country.

DEAN: Wow.

LUNTZ: The undecided voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. And among undecided voters, often Independents who don't like either candidate, what they really don't like is the politics and polarization. But what they really don't like is the negativity.

So every time Trump attracts -- attacks Biden, every time his supporters love it. But these undecided voters cringe. And every time Biden tries to go back to the four years of the Trump presidency, the exact same thing happens.

Make no mistake, the national numbers don't matter. These other states don't matter. I hate to say this to your viewers, but it's only Pennsylvania. It's only Michigan. It's only Wisconsin.

And the candidate that is the least political, the candidate that reminds people the least of the divisions and the politics of the last eight years is the candidate who wins those voters.

DEAN: That's fascinating.

All right, Frank Luntz, always great to talk with you. Thank you so much.

LUNTZ: Thank you.

DEAN: Still ahead, after a wave of deadly attacks by Russia on Ukraine, Poland is now weighing a proposal by Kyiv. It's one that would have Poland intercept Russian rockets on course to hit cities in Ukraine. What this could mean for Putin's war. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:50:36]

DEAN: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is defending President Biden after that moment when President Biden mistakenly referred to him as President Putin during a NATO event this week.

Here's Zelenskyy's reaction when asked about it in Ireland earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: A lot of support, we can forget.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Meantime, Ukraine may be on the verge of getting some unexpected aerial support in the war against Russia. Poland is considering a Ukrainian proposal to begin intercepting Russian rockets headed for Ukraine.

Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling joins us now to talk about this and more.

Lieutenant Hertling, great to see you.

Let's talk, first, about this potential proposal about Poland getting involved in this way. What do you make of this?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's an interesting factor, Jessica. And it could cause some fascinating dynamics in terms of diplomacy.

Poland does share a 250-mile-long border with Ukraine. But that border does not fall under either Belarus or Russia. So for them to engage missiles that are incoming to Ukraine, they would have to fire over Ukrainian territory.

That might be appropriate. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of discussions about this. But it would -- you know, Poland being one of the NATO nations, could draw other NATO states into this fight, attacking directly Russia, Russian incoming bomb incoming bombs and missiles over Ukraine.

So it's going to be -- there's going to be a lot more discussion about this. But it proves the closeness between Poland and Ukraine.

I spent a lot of time in both of those countries. They have a deep relationship. They've seen what Russia does when they put them under their thumb.

So they're both fighting for freedom and territorial integrity. So I think you might see additional efforts by Poland to support Ukraine like this.

DEAN: And this week, the White House announced the U.S.-made fighter jets are on their way to Ukraine, donated from Denmark and the Netherlands. Talk us through how this could change the dynamic in this war.

HERTLING: Well, this has been something Ukraine has been asking for a long time. They believe that fighter jets, especially F-16s, which are fifth-generation fighters, better than what most of the Russian fighters are, would -- would lead for a battlefield advantage.

The problem is they have been having to train their pilots as well. And that has been the limiting factor. Ukraine has not provided enough pilots for the number of aircraft they are requesting.

The other thing that will be interesting is, what will be the primary role of these aircraft? Will they be air-to-ground?

Will they be deep strike? In other words, targeting targets beyond the capability of some of the artillery place pieces inside of Russia? Or will they be the kind of close-air support that combat forces use?

In each one of those roles, air-to-air, close-air support or deep strikes takes a different kind of piloting and different kind of support.

It also requires electronic warfare and air defense system of the Russian forces to be disabled. Because you just can't throw someone the keys to an F-16 and say, go out and fly and be amongst them.

You have to suppress the air defense of the enemy and the electronic warfare. So that's all part of the conclusion.

As well as the air bases. Russia has been striking many of Ukrainian bases to limit their capability to use those to land the jets after they've taken off.

So there's a lot more to all of this than just providing the aircraft. And I think that's what is going to be happening as Ukraine works through the first tranche of aircraft that will be becoming too later this summer.

DEAN: And I also want to ask you about this Russian plot that U.S. and German authorities foiled. It was a Russian plot to assassinate the CEO of a major German arms manufacturer that -- it's kind of a wild story.

And it seems that Russia is increasingly targeting European defense industry leaders to disrupt arms supplies to Ukraine. What do you think about this? And how, and if, should NATO respond?

HERTLING: It is an asymmetric approach. And its criminality, Russia has been doing this for years.

Jessica, I can't comment on the number of times I've read intelligence factors or intelligence briefings when I was the commander of the U.S. Army in Europe that had Russia doing some kind of nefarious behavior like this.

[17:55:10]

We know they have poisoned agents within the West, inside Berlin, inside the U.K., inside of other NATO countries. They are not fearful of going into these countries and attacking these kinds of people.

But taking it up to the level of a CEO of an arms manufacturer, that just shows, you know, they're not going to hold -- barring any holds to basically threaten individuals to try and influence them to quit supporting Ukraine.

It's very dangerous, but it's kind of right out of a spy novel, isn't it?

DEAN: Yes, certainly.

All right, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, always great to see you. Thanks so much.

HERTLING: Great to see you, Jessica. Thank you.

DEAN: Still to come, President Biden working the phones right now as he speaks with a number of Democratic caucuses, all as he rally support around his reelection bid. We have new reaction from lawmakers who were on those calls. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)