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Acting Secret Service Director Testifies on Capitol Hill. Aired 11-11:30a ET
Aired July 30, 2024 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:01]
RONALD ROWE, ACTING U.S. SECRET SERVICE DIRECTOR: The -- I think one of the things that I have directed is that, in addition to the interoperability, we're going to roll out common operating picture or common operating platform that we utilize for national special security events.
We have the ability to roll that out to the field. That has a blue force tracker in it that's able to -- where you can put where all your state and local assets are, where our federal assets are.
But in addition to that, I want people using the radio. So it's great that the tactical elements are talking to each other. It's great that the shift is talking to each other, but we have to be able to make sure that, whenever we come across a situation, that everyone has situational awareness of this.
And I will take this -- I -- in my time when I was operational on the president's detail, we were given the explicit instruction, hey, if it's -- if you're going to pass it, if it's relevant enough that you feel like you need to pass that information, do it over the radio.
And that was the protocol that we had. And I think, over the years, perhaps with the advent of technology and smartphones, perhaps we have gotten away from that. But we need to get people back on the scope, back on mission, back focused on what they need to be responsible for.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): OK. And the next question I will put in writing. Thank you very much of you, Mr. Abbate, but it's just pointing out that we have seen this rise in threats against members of Congress, which, of course, is relevant to this, 8,000 just last year, more than four times over the past seven years.
Just I will want to ask you in writing about the steps that the Justice Department is taking to prioritize these cases. I know there's been some changes made.
PAUL ABBATE, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Yes, Senator, it's of our highest priority, and we're working on a 24/7 a day every day to protect each and every one of you here.
KLOBUCHAR: Appreciate it. Thank you, both of you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Carper, recognize for your questions. SEN. TOM CARPER (D-DE): Thanks very much.
Mr. Rowe, Mr. Abbate, thank you for joining us today. I have the privilege of representing Delaware, the first state to ratify the Constitution. We did that over 200 years ago. And the Constitution sort of outlines how we elect our leaders. And it changes with respect to technology over the years.
But there's, for as long as we have been a country, threats to our leaders when they pursue elective office. We're going to be gathering -- some of us gathering in Chicago in just a few weeks. Others will be gathering in other parts of the country to help make sure that what was adopted in that original Constitution is actually carried out faithfully.
And it's just incredibly important that those who aspire to elective office, those who take on those challenges are protected and their families are protected, as well as those who surround them.
I share with my colleagues my prayers for those who've been killed or injured on July 13. We're grateful that our -- one of our presidential candidates was is -- OK. But I have a question about what -- I still can't get over how a 20-year-old loner, 20-year-old loner could somehow outfox, outsmart two of the smartest federal agencies and state agencies in law enforcement, with an odds of like 1000-1 and be able to almost pull this off.
It just blows my mind. Hopefully, we will get to the truth and all of that. I'm a Navy guy. I spent 20 many years of my life in the Navy. I learned as a midshipman that when the ship runs aground at sea, the commanding officer is held responsible. Whether the commanding officer is awake, asleep, at the helm, but that commanding officer is held responsible.
And I think we have to make at the end of the day -- I'm not interested in a blame game, but I'm sure it's been finding out who was responsible and making sure that they account for their responsibility.
My question is, what policies are currently in place to facilitate real-time information-sharing between the Secret Service and local law enforcement during an event and what changes to information sharing practices will the Secret Service make in light of the apparent breakdown in communications on July 13?
ROWE: Thank you for that question, Senator. So we're looking at our procedures.
We rely on a counterpart system. And the radio interoperability is -- it's a complex challenge. It's not just about being able to find whatever frequency our local counterparts are on and then just piping it in. There's some technical challenges that have to be there.
So, to alleviate that, we have always relied on a security room where we have representatives from the local agencies. Those individuals are there to, one, bring their own radio and then relay relevant information that would impact our security plan.
[11:05:00]
I think what I'm looking at, and again, what I'm -- in looking at this situation is, there was a unified command post and we had our security room, and we had -- communications that day at the Butler farm site were challenging, not just challenging for the Secret Service, but for challenging for locals.
There were some cellular issues. There were radio issues. And so -- and you saw that with the testimony from the colonel from Pennsylvania State Police last week in the House.
So I think, as I'm thinking about this, I think we need to consider what is our model moving forward. And I think we need to be where the greatest amount of partners are when that information is being discussed.
The other thing that I'm looking at is, we need to also make sure that we have redundancies as far as cellular on the ground or additional repeaters. And so I have directed our chief information officer to do that and we are rolling assets out now supporting campaign sites.
CARPER: Thank you. Thank you for that.
Mr. Abbate, quick question. Based on the initial information gathered from the investigation, do you believe there were any actions taken by the shooter in the weeks days or hours leading up to the shooting that should have caused alarm and grabbed the attention of law enforcement?
ABBATE: He did not have any interactions with law enforcement leading up to this, Senator. I -- we haven't found anything yet that would have alerted law enforcement or FBI or Secret Service to his intention activities in advance of this event.
I will note, however, to your prior question, that we do have a very strong relationship, an integrated relationship between FBI and Secret Service and every other federal, state, local agency you can imagine.
We have constructs like the joint terrorism task forces and violent crime task forces where we're cross-embedded with each other. And when it comes to this event and others like it, we're always talking in advance. In fact, with respect to this event, we did have a meeting between U.S. Secret Service and FBI in the days leading up to the event to determine, assess whether there was any information or intelligence pertaining to a threat against the rally or to former President Trump or anyone else there.
There was an absence of that in the lead-up specifically. And, again, none of us had any information in our holdings with regard to the ultimate shooter.
CARPER: All right, thank you for that. Thanks very much, both of you.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): Next on the Senate Judiciary Committee is Senator Grassley. SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-IA): Yes.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to introduce my oversight letters and investigative documents into the record. This is information I have already made public.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without objection.
GRASSLEY: OK, thank you.
I'd also like to call my colleagues' attention to legislation that Senator Cortez Masto and I have introduced. It would require Senate confirmation of the director of the Secret Service. I think this is very important, because no other agency has a no-fail mission.
Mr. Rowe, in your written testimony, you stated that you -- that to prevent similar lapses, like the one on July 13 from happening again, you will ensure every event site security plan is certainly vetted by multiple experienced supervisors before it's implemented.
Based on your testimony, the security plan for the Butler event deviated from the Social Security (sic) standards. How would vetting by multiple experienced supervisors fix that?
ROWE: So, Senator, I think having many eyes on a particular problem set helps. That way, you're not -- you don't have tunnel vision, you just focus in on one thing.
And so that's why I think it's important, not only at the field office level, but also at the detail level. And part of what we had started doing with the former president's detail is having them send out site agents, having them send out supervisors.
And I think having that collaboration and having additional eyes to examine the problem will make sure that we're not missing anything. And I think I want that surety for myself, and I think --
GRASSLEY: I think you have answered my question.
ROWE: Yes, sir.
GRASSLEY: Let me go on.
Also to you, in your written testimony, you stated that you -- quote -- "regret that information wasn't passed to Congress and the public sooner and with greater frequency." What's your communication plan going forward to ensure that the American people and Congress are fully informed?
[11:10:00]
ROWE: So, Senator, we just started a rolling production that is bicameral. So we made our first rolling production last week. We made one yesterday. We will continue to do that.
And my view is that sunshine is the best disinfectant, and we intend to provide information to Congress as it carries out its oversight function.
GRASSLEY: OK, also to you, I made public documents that show Secret Service deployed a counter unmanned aerial system operator on July the 13th.
According to the Secret Service, the drone system was supposed to be operational at 3:00 p.m. that day. However, we have been told by Secret Service that, because of cellular bandwidth problems, it wasn't operational until about 5:20 of that day. If the system was operational, Secret Service would have had the ability to detect the shooter and his own drone use.
Why is the Secret Service dependent upon local cell -- cellular network? Does the Secret Service have a backup plan in place?
ROWE: Yes, thank you, Senator.
And that is something that I briefed in the closed-door and, again, something that has cost me a lot of sleep because of the eventual outcome of the assailant, that what if we had geolocated him because that counter-UAS platform had been up?
It is something that I have struggled with to understand, and I have no explanation for it.
GRASSLEY: OK.
ROWE: It is something that I feel as though we could have perhaps found him. We could have maybe stopped him. Maybe, on that particular day, he would have decided this isn't the day to do it, because law enforcement just found me flying my drone.
People fly drones all the time on the peripheries of our sites and we go out and we talk to them and we ascertain what their intentions are. On this day, in particular, because of the connectivity challenge, as you noted, there was a delay, and he flew his drone at 3:51, approximately.
So, moving forward, we are leveraging resources from the Department of Homeland Security and others to make sure that we have dedicated connectivity, so that we're not reliant on public domain, so that we can ensure that, whatever assets we have in place, those assets are operational.
And that is my commitment to you that we are going to make sure we're going to do that, and that is something we are moving out on.
GRASSLEY: Thank you, and I hope that you will answer some of my other questions in writing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Johnson, recognized for your questions.
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Acting Director Rowe, in our secure briefing last week, I made the point that, if you don't want conspiracy theories to spread, you need to provide information. I appreciate these photos today. These things could have been released literally within days, and a whole lot more information as well.
So Congress needs to provide oversight. We don't have certain investigatory tools like you have, but what we can do is do interviews.
So, Acting Director Rowe, did you receive our letter from July 25 requesting interviews with 13 individuals of the Secret Service?
ROWE: We are in receipt of that letter, Senator.
JOHNSON: And I don't -- Director -- Deputy Director Abbate, have you seen that letter as well? Do you know who we're requesting interviews with?
ABBATE: Senator, I have not seen the letter.
JOHNSON: OK.
Do you know whether those individuals submitted to interviews with the FBI, Acting Director Rowe?
ROWE: We're in the process. Those employees are being interviewed, if they have not already been interviewed, sir.
JOHNSON: Are those interviews being transcribed?
ROWE: The FBI interviews, sir?
JOHNSON: Yes.
Will we have 302s on those?
ABBATE: Yes, Senator, we will.
JOHNSON: When will we -- when will Congress get those 302s? When will we get those transcriptions of those interviews?
ABBATE: Senator, I will take that back and we will get those to you as soon as possible.
JOHNSON: So, Acting Director Rowe, when will those individuals be made available for Congress, for this committee to interview them?
ROWE: Senator, we will make them available.
JOHNSON: How soon?
Because memories are short. They can be influenced by events. We need these transcribed interviews as soon as possible.
ROWE: We will get them done, sir.
JOHNSON: Does Secret Service use encrypted communications at events?
ROWE: On our radio nets, we do, sir.
JOHNSON: Are those memorialized? Are they saved?
ROWE: The radio traffic from Butler, we did not have recordings.
JOHNSON: Do you normally?
ROWE: Not on the road outside of D.C. or outside of a presidential or vice presidential stop.
JOHNSON: So communications between Secret Service agents will not be available, like we have gotten the communications from local law enforcement?
ROWE: I'm sorry, Senator.
JOHNSON: So we're not going to be able to get those communications. You didn't save them?
ROWE: No, sir.
[11:15:00]
JOHNSON: Which is very unfortunate.
ROWE: It is, sir. And moving forward, we have actually -- I have directed that we will now start recording those, so that we will have them moving forward.
JOHNSON: So -- and, by the way, I'm going to ask for a number of things at the very end to be entered in the record.
But one of my preliminary findings is that the Secret Service did not attend the 9:00 briefing the day of the event. In your testimony, you said that a site briefing was conducted with Secret Service personnel and law enforcement partners supporting the event. Those both can't be true.
So local law enforcement do not believe Secret Service was present at the 9:00 briefing. Were they or were they not?
ROWE: So, Senator, with respect to the snipers that went on national television and gave an interview and said that they did not get a briefing from the Secret Service, they were not -- they were supporting through mutual aid, and our personnel briefed the tactical team leader that had -- was leading that element that was providing this countersniper.
JOHNSON: Well, Acting Director Rowe, you said that the Secret Service provides explicit instructions to the locals. Were explicit instructions provided to cover the roof of the AGR building and locals just not follow it or were those explicit instructions not provided?
ROWE: My understanding of what was communicated is that the locals had a plan and that they had been there before. JOHNSON: So an awful lot of the chatter and social media has to do
with, is there a partisanship in the Secret Service, providing coverage for some individuals and none for others?
About Secret Service coverage or additional coverage enhancements being denied, was there ever requested additional coverage for Mar-a- Lago?
ROWE: Senator, we have provided additional resources to the Mar-a- Lago residence.
JOHNSON: Was coverage asked for and denied ever?
ROWE: I will have to research that, Senator, but I'm happy to tell you we have made significant investments since the former president has left office, over $4 million of technology, resources --
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: Documents will come out eventually --
ROWE: Yes, sir.
JOHNSON: -- to make the point one way or the other. This is an important piece of information that Congress needs to have.
ROWE: Senator, I will -- we will make those available to you, what we -- the investments we've made.
JOHNSON: There was a report today by Susan Crabtree of RealClearPolitics saying that you denied sniper coverage outside of driving distance to D.C. Is that true?
ROWE: That is a false statement, sir.
JOHNSON: That is incorrect?
ROWE: That is incorrect.
JOHNSON: OK, that's kind of information you need to refute with documentation.
Deputy Director Abbate, you said this is an assassination attempt and domestic terrorism. It's obviously an assassination attempt. Why make the distinction? What is different about that?
ABBATE: We think it's important to cover all the possibilities here in the reality of what we're dealing with and what we have all seen, Senator. And we have learned lessons from the past.
The baseball -- the tragic shooting at the baseball field is reference here. We have learned a lesson from that. That was not opened properly. And we have made changes in the bureau, and it's reflected here in terms of how this investigation is being approached with a completely open mind and inclusive of all the possibilities, including domestic terrorism. JOHNSON: I fear that makes the investigation potentially partisan.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to request that my July 14 letter to Attorney General Garland, Mayorkas and Wray be entered in the record. It asks for all kinds of information, documentation, asks a lot of question.
My preliminary findings of July 21 and July 23, including timelines, a bunch of questions, will be entered into the record. And then our updated timeline dated today, this goes not only by minute, by second. And we will continue to update this timeline as more information becomes public.
This is the way you do investigation. We need to find out literally second by second what happened, so we -- so the American public understands the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without objection, so ordered.
DURBIN: Senator Butler?
SEN. LAPHONZA BUTLER (D-CA): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to both of our chairmen and ranking members for holding this incredibly important hearing, critically, for the American people to understand the safety and security that is being provided to our national leaders.
Thank you both for being here and for, again, answering the hard questions. This is a time of, I think, heightened attention, deservedly, deservedly so, not only for our national leaders, but for the teacher who decides that they are going to go and participate in their democracy or the firefighter who wants to hear the voice and vision of the potential next leader of this country.
My thoughts and prayers really are with those Pennsylvania families who have lost loved ones or have been critically injured.
[11:20:00]
As I offer my questions today, it would be in service to those to preventing future incidents.
But in the one question of looking backward to the event on the 13th, Director Abbate, can I -- can you just talk a little bit about, how did the -- how did Mr. Crooks, how was he able to get an AR-15 onto the roof of that building? Does your investigation illuminate anything that we have learned to help to make that point more clear?
ABBATE: We don't have definitive evidence yet as to how we got the rifle up there. Based on everything that's been collected thus far, photos, video, eyewitness accounts, we do believe he likely had it in the backpack.
BUTLER: Broken down in the backpack?
ABBATE: We're still assessing that. Our laboratory has taken -- it looked at the rifle itself and measured that against the backpack itself.
And if placed in this backpack, it would extend outside. It would have been visible. We don't have anyone who's observed him, who observed him with the backpack with a rifle barrel or other part of it sticking out of the backpack. But the rifle would not have fit fully into this backpack to be concealed in whole.
We have video that was recently found of the shooter walking in a distance from his car just before 6:00 p.m., about 5:56, I believe. And based on everything we have, we assess that he returned to his vehicle at that time, got the backpack, and then proceeded back to the area and to the AGR building.
And then he's observed, of course, on the roof, just minutes later, holding the backpack in front of him. In fact, there's dashcam footage from a police vehicle that shows him briefly traversing the roof with the backpack in front of him.
And then it's just minutes after that he's actually seen by the officer who I described with the rifle on the roof. It's possible that he broke the rifle down, though we don't have conclusive evidence of that, and took it out of the bag on the roof in those moments before and reassembled it there.
That's one of the theories we're looking at and working on right now.
BUTLER: Thank you for that.
You take me right -- Acting Director Rowe, thank you for your years of dedicated service and jumping in, in a hot time.
But you take me right to this point of communication. There's been a lot of conversation about the -- and even in your written and verbal testimony, you have talked a lot about the communication and the disparate nature in which it's happening across the different channels.
One sort of foundational question that I have is, are all elements of an event communicated on the same channel? If I lost my kid and I'm at a big rally, are local law enforcement talking on the same channel about me losing my kid that they're talking about a suspicious individual?
ROWE: So when it comes to the locals, they likely have some type of common channel that they work off of in a county or an adjoining municipality.
When it comes to the Secret Service, we do have various channels for various agents and our uniform division officers working specific aspects of that advance.
BUTLER: So it's not possible that the delay in communication or the losing of the thread of tracking this individual was sort of lost in the commotion of all of the other communications that could have been or maybe was not -- was sort of separate from the communication channels that were happening? ROWE: Senator, I can only speak to the Secret Service --
BUTLER: Sure.
ROWE: -- lines of communication. And we did not have anything beyond suspicious person that was communicated to us.
BUTLER: Last question, really quickly, because I'm out of time, but Acting Director, is the -- was there any communication with the Secret Service that was talking directly with the president, the former president's detail?
That feels like -- there's been some question by colleagues about why the call wasn't made to delay the event. Help us understand the communication that either was or was not happening directly with the president, former president's detail to make the call to delay 10 minutes, when we have all been to these events.
They never happen on time, but to delay while this was being investigated.
ROWE: So the detail, all they -- they were operating on their net, which our security room was monitoring. But, again, having information of a suspicious individual, there were other calls that day of individuals that came to the attention of law enforcement, of people that needed medical attention.
[11:25:13]
So it really -- that particular -- regarding the assailant, that never really rose to a level of, we should not put them out there. Had we known that there was a dangerous individual out there, we would never let a protectee go out on stage.
BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Hassan, recognized for your questions.
SEN. MAGGIE HASSAN (D-NH): Well, thank you very much Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you and Chairman Durbin and the ranking members for holding this joint hearing today. And thank you to our witnesses not only for being here, but for your careers of service to our country and to the men and women you lead.
I am really grateful that former President Trump is safe and extend my sympathies to the family of Corey Comperatore, who was fatally shot at the rally, and my sympathies to everyone who was injured.
On July 13, major failures nearly led to the assassination of a presidential candidate who is also a former president of the United States. The Secret Service has to be fully transparent about how this happened and how it's going to change moving forward, understanding there's also a need to balance Congress' engagement in oversight with allowing law enforcement to conduct an ongoing criminal investigation.
I want to thank the agents of the Secret Service for selflessly acting to protect elected officials and their families and our former presidents. We're grateful for their sacrifices and their service. And I want to thank all law enforcement and particularly law enforcement officers and first responders who worked to minimize harm to the crowd on July 13.
Mr. Rowe, I want to start with you. New Hampshire hosts many political rallies. Protecting the speakers and attendees at these events requires extensive coordination between state and local law enforcement, the Secret Service staff, and obviously campaign events staff.
As a former governor, I have experienced some of the challenges that this type of coordination can create, but we know that this coordination is really essential to public safety. It's clear that there were significant coordination failures on July 13.
You told us earlier that the local SWAT team told the Secret Service that local law enforcement had eyes on the AGR roof, but there are reports that members of a local SWAT team never met with the Secret Service in the days before the Butler rally.
What steps does the Secret Service take prior to political rallies to ensure that the agency is effectively coordinating with the candidate's security details, with state and local law enforcement and with campaign events staff?
ROWE: So, as part of the advanced process, Senator, as happened in Butler as well, there's a police meeting.
And, basically, that is -- that initiates the advance.
HASSAN: Right.
ROWE: That's bringing in all the not only emergency management officials, but all the state and local law enforcement agencies that may have aspects of supporting or assisting in that advance and on that visit.
The focus of that police meeting, one, is to exchange numbers and business cards and then coordinate times for walk-throughs. There were walk-throughs of the Butler farm site with local law enforcement agencies that were supporting that visit. And that was directly as a result of having that police meeting to begin the process of figuring out, dividing up the labor, areas of responsibility.
HASSAN: So what you're telling me is that, at that meeting, the Secret Service -- the first meeting led to the walk-through that the Secret Service does with local law enforcement, and that the -- at least some members or directors of the local SWAT team would have been part of that process?
ROWE: Well, as I understand it, the Beaver County, they were seconded to assist Butler, but the Butler ESU team were part of the advance process.
HASSAN: OK. How many agents did the Secret Service provide to plan and secure this
event? And how many people from state and local law enforcement agencies supported the security of this event?
ROWE: So, in totality, between law enforcement, state and local and federal, there were 155 personnel at the Butler and the Secret Service.
All combined Secret Service, it's in the 70s. And then we had support from Homeland Security Investigations that were providing post- standers. And then we had approximately 70 or so various Pennsylvania state law enforcement.
HASSAN: OK. Thank you.
I want to go to one other issue before my time expires. You have talked today and in our secure briefing about the interoperability of the Secret Service's counterdrone capability, that it failed early on.
