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Now, Historic Prisoner Swap With Russia Underway, Wall Street Journal Reporter Gershkovich, Former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan Expected to be Released; Family of One of Prisoners Being Released Elated But Nervous; Turkey Confirms it Played a Role in Huge Prisoner Swap, Says it Involves Seven Different Countries. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 01, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, I'm Erin Burnett in New York and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.

We have, of course, breaking news and our special coverage continuing this hour, sources telling us that a prisoner exchange for Americans imprisoned in Russia is now underway. These are live images right now on your screen. This is the airport in Ankara, Turkey, the capital of Turkey, where Turkish intelligence tells us they are coordinating an extensive prisoner swap.

Now, here's what we know about it thus far. We understand from sources that the exchange includes the two best known Americans held in Russia. Those are the Wall Street Journal reporter, Evan Gershkovich, who was detained more than 15 months ago and recently sentenced to a prison of 16 years, convicted of espionage last month, and also reportedly the Marine veteran, Paul Whelan, who has been held the longest, more than five and a half years in a penal colony in Russia. The U.S. has denounced the espionage convictions of both Whelan and Gershkovich and called their trials shams.

CNN crews are in place around the world working their sources to bring you all the latest details as this is unfolding as we speak. We show you an airport tarmac because these last minute, last moment, last second, exchanges could be happening.

Let's go to Alex Marquardt first in Washington. Alex, the historical significance of this day can't be understated. As far as I know, a lot of the reporting coming in, this could be the biggest exchange of prisoners between the U.S. and Russia since the end of the Cold War.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It could be absolutely historic. We're talking about a multi-country exchange of as many as 20 or more prisoners possibly. A lot of these details are being speculated about, Erin, right now. We expect to get more details as the exchange is underway. We believe that right now we're in the beginning stages.

If indeed Turkish intelligence is saying that they are facilitating this exchange, and that adds a very important detail to what we're going to see unfold today. There's been a lot of speculation about where this exchange would take place. If the Turks are saying it's taking their in their capital Ankara, and I saw in that shot right there, you had a Russian plane there on the tarmac, then what we're going to see in the coming hours is going to be incredibly dramatic, something out of a movie.

We've seen this play out in the past two years as Russians and Americans have been exchanged, Trevor Reed, Brittney Griner, where the prisoners descend from these planes, walk across the tarmac in such a sort of cinematic way, board the planes, and then come home. And it is in that moment that there is such a feeling of relief from all sides.

What we do now know is rather limited, but the good news is coming from the Biden administration that Evan Gershkovich, the Wall Street Journal reporter who was just convicted last month to 16 years in a penal colony on what are believed to be trumped up charges will be among those released by Russia today.

Alongside him is another American who has been held for much longer. Paul Whelan, the former U.S. Marine, first arrested in 2018 and then convicted in 2020, also to 16 years. He's been serving in a penal colony and in horrible conditions about eight hours outside Moscow.

Whelan has seen other Americans released in his time there and has said that he didn't understand why others were getting the chance to go home, although he was certainly happy for them.

Another name, Erin, I want to mention is Vadim Krasikov. He is believed to be the Russian assassin who the Kremlin wants back most. He's being held in Germany. He's an FSB colonel. He carried out a killing in a Berlin park and has been held by the Germans for several years.

And so at least the Russians, the Germans, and the Americans are part of this deal, but we believe there could be other countries involved. The U.S. would release a number of Russian prisoners as well, though, the U.S. doesn't have big, bold faced names like Viktor Bout, who they released in for Brittney Griner.

[10:05:07]

And so that's why there has been this pressure campaign from the Biden administration on the Germans to release Krasikov because that's really the guy who Putin wants.

But no doubt, Erin, what we're going to see unfold in the coming hours is going to be historic, it's going to be dramatic, and it's going to be very emotional for all those involved.

BURNETT: Yes, it is. And as you say, the scenes of a movie, when you remember those scenes of someone walking across a bridge, and until that very last instant, right, when that exchange happens, you don't know if it will. And these are these final fraught moments that we're in. Let's bring in CNN Chief Global Affairs Correspondent Matthew Chance. Matthew, as we're looking at the tarmac in Ankara where we understand the Turkish intelligence could be coordinating this, multi-countries, there, of course, has been the reporting over time that perhaps even part of the reason that Vladimir Putin wanted the arrest of Evan Gershkovich, a U.S. reporter doing his job in Moscow, was all a part of a long term ploy to get back that assassin that Alex Marquardt was just talking about. I mean, the machinations on this have been going on for a long time.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they have. I mean, look, these negotiations have been going on for months. They've been very painful. They've been very delicate. In fact, there have been talks between United States and Russia going on for several years to try and sort of find ways in which, you know, people connected with the United States with the west could be exchanged in a prisoner swap, just like this one.

And I think you're right. This idea that Vladimir Putin, and this is what his critics accuse him of, is, you know, of gathering sort of bargaining chips, collecting people like Evan Gershkovich, who was accused of espionage and convicted of espionage, but categorically denied having anything to do with espionage.

Paul Whelan as well, that former Marine who spent the best part of the past six years behind bars in Russia, he was accused of spying as well, and he was just there attending a wedding of a friend in Moscow when he was detained.

And so, look, all of these people, critics suggest, have been gathered by Vladimir Putin so that he could use them as bargaining chips when the right opportunity arose. And it seems that's exactly what's happened. There's been some suggestion that this deal is an indication that Vladimir Putin is open for negotiations, that it's a softening of his position, perhaps. Well, I mean, that may very well be the case. Let's hope it is. But it's also, I think, a sign that his strategy of gathering those bargaining chips in exchange and using them to exchange for compromises from the United States from the west, that has also been successful as well.

So, we're talking about 16 people. These are unconfirmed figures. 16 people from from the U.S. Side. Sorry, from the Russian side being exchanged from eight from the U.S. side, from the western side, if you like. And so, you know, that those are the sort of numbers that we're looking at. But there's been a moral compromise on a moral decision that had to be made, ethically as well.

BURNETT: Right. And also, of course, on the U.S. side the politics cannot be overstated here, that the timing of this and happening while President Biden is president is crucial to this administration.

Let's bring in Jim Sciutto, Chief National Security Analyst. Jim, talking to some of the families here that are involved, as Matthew's saying, for Putin, these are bargaining chips, right? But, of course, these are individual lives who have been completely gutted and destroyed. One of them responding to me just with a heart, when the possibility arose that maybe their loved one, who they never thought they would see again, could come home. And I know you have been talking to families. Do they really believe that this could happen here in these next hours?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, I've been speaking to someone close to the families who's with them right now. They've been gathering at a hotel here in Washington, D.C., in anticipation of this news. And I think I could describe it this way best, Erin. They are elated. They're full of anticipation after months and, in some cases, years, of course, of pain, but also false starts, times when they thought they might -- their loved ones might be released or might be part of some other deal, and they were not.

But with a heavy dose of nervousness, their feeling is they will feel truly comfortable, truly relieved when they see with their own eyes that their loved ones are safe, and that could be imminent as we watch those planes on the tarmac in Ankara, in Germany.

But as you know, Erin, this has been a painful spell for these families. I will say, I could hear the excitement. I could hear the excitement in their voices this morning as they awaited this news.

BURNETT: Yes, it's truly impossible to imagine.

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All of us can only try to imagine what a moment is like and what loss they have felt over these years. Paul Whelan, right, it's been eight years.

Let's go to Kylie Atwood. Kylie, I know from the perspective of these negotiations, it's been going on, so much of this comes down to the people involved, though. There's so many countries and who's in power at what moment, who's willing to talk to whom. What brings this to fruition here on this first day of August, finally?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It's such a good point. It really does boil down to personal communications that U.S. officials are having with folks in other countries, because, as we have been talking about, this has been a global effort that the U.S., the Biden administration has led here. And the reason for that, just to remind folks, is that the United States doesn't have anyone, has not had anyone in its custody that is the caliber of person that Russia was looking for in terms of a prisoner swap.

We have heard U.S. officials say that because Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich were both charged with espionage, the Russian side has wanted Russian spies in exchange for them, and the U.S. simply has not had those folks in their custody as of recently. And so they have had to go to those other countries, engage in diplomatic conversations, look at Russians that they have in their custody and say, would you be willing to work with us on a potential prisoner swap that we are expecting to see come to fruition in some version today?

I think we've also been trying to read the tea leaves here, Erin. We haven't heard much from the Biden administration in terms of assessments of how Russia has responded to proposals that they have put on the table recently. It was late last year that we know that the Biden administration put a serious -- they deemed it a serious proposal on the table with Russia that was rejected by Russia. But since then, more than eight months later, we haven't heard much.

And now it's becoming clear that the reason that we haven't heard a whole lot is because there has been a tremendous amount of activity behind the scenes on this. And, of course, U.S. officials don't want those kinds of efforts to get out publicly because it could actually undercut their efforts.

One of the things that we watched, however, in the last few weeks recently was Evan Gershkovich's trial in Russia concluded quite quickly, and that was significant. The reason being of, as I said, he was charged with espionage. And typically for trials involving charges of espionage in the Russian system, it can go on for months, potentially leading up to a year. But because his trial came to fruition, quite quickly, U.S. officials were somewhat hopeful, that that was a signal that Russia was moving towards some sort of an agreement on a prisoner swap because they have always said that there needs to be a conviction before they can move to an actual agreement on a deal. So, those are some of the tea leaves that we have been reading.

But as we watch this all come together, we'll have to watch and see what the ups and downs of the last eight to ten months really looks like.

BURNETT: I mean, really incredible, Kylie, and Kylie talking about that trial for Evan Gershkovich, he was sentenced to 16 years in a maximum security penal colony just weeks ago. I mean, it is really stunning to see where we are.

Nic Robertson, our international diplomatic editor, Nic, let me just ask you. Looking through, when you see these prisoner swaps, the U.S. saying who do they have that Putin would want, putting aside whether people think these things should happen this way or not. I mean, you've got hackers, Russian hackers in U.S. prison, one currently serving 27 years, the biggest ever sentenced for cybercrime, a guy that they say is the person who actually is responsible for the entire credit card fraud industry. There are people like that in U.S. prison who may be a part of this deal. But the question is, Nic, what's in this for Putin right now?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, that's a great question. And, look, and people are talking about this as a product of positive behind the scenes diplomacy and, for sure that it is, but it's also a window on how that diplomacy works and how President Putin manipulates it. He's long been criticized for taking people like Evan Gershkovich and holding them in prison just as pawns to swap for people that he wants. And what we've seen is what Putin's been criticized for is exploitative and cynical measures here.

Look, let's just analyze this with very cold, clear eyes. Putin is the one that calls all the shots. So, when Alexei Navalny dies in jail, and our great reporter, Jen Hansler, gets a call from Paul Whelan in jail, and he expresses his concerns that that could happen to him, that is part of Putin's theater. It is great journalistic work at CNN by Jen, in particular, to get that call.

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But what it reveals is that Putin is willing to cynically manipulate and exploit the situation, this delicate process of trying to organize this prisoner exchange by essentially holding up a prisoner who is saying I'm worried now about my safety and security. It's an implicit threat. And this is true of Putin.

So, when you try to analyze what does Putin get for this, and is this a step towards a possible path for diplomacy, for peace in Ukraine, you really have to understand how Putin approaches all of this. Remembering the last time that he negotiated peace on Ukraine, his negotiators were sitting around the table in Minsk, in Belorussia, and at the same time his forces were fighting on the ground to take more territory.

So, this is a very manipulative situation. And we don't know what's fully behind this. Are there other things that have been discussed beyond the prisoners that have helped facilitate this? There are so many questions, obviously.

BURNETT: Yes, so many. And, of course, also the reason for the timing may also come more from the U.S. side and what works for the Biden administration as well as the calculations of Putin.

You mentioned Jen Hansler, and I want to bring her in now, Jennifer Hansler, our State Department reporter. Jennifer, you have done such incredible reporting, and you are a person, and I think you just can't under -- I want to just make sure everyone understands. Paul Whelan, who's been serving in a maximum security penal colony, often in solitary confinement for years, has made calls. He's called you, all right? So, I know that you have received this. You understand better than anyone what is going on there. What are you learning?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT REPORTER: Obviously, Erin, this is a huge moment for Whelan and for his family, Gershkovich and his family, particularly for Whelan, because this brings to an end a five-and-a-half year long nightmare for him. I have spoken to him about a dozen times over the course of his detainment there in Russia, and he has described the conditions there as being deplorable. He has described working in a factory that he equates to a sweatshop.

But he also has expressed increasing optimism about the prospects for getting him home in the past couple calls. He has said he is confident in the work that the U.S. had been doing to secure his release, particularly after he was left behind in the swaps that freed both Brittney Griner and Trevor Reed. And, of course, we are seeing the fruits of that happening today, and now as he is heading back to the United States.

Now, Erin, we spoke just a couple weeks ago, right after Evan Gershkovich was sentenced and convicted to 16 years in a maximum security penal colony. This is the same sentence that Whelan himself received back in June of 2020. And he said he could really relate to what Evan was going through in that day in that courtroom. Take a listen to what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL WHELAN, RUSSIAN PRISONER: I'm sympathetic and empathetic to him and his family. I understand thing what they're going through and my family certainly understands what they're going through. It's something that you just can't fathom, especially if you're a tourist or like Evan. He was just doing his job. And you end up in a cage, in a courtroom, being told that you have to spend 16 years of hard labor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANSLER: Now, at the same time in that conversation, Erin, he was hopeful that conviction, which we know was moved up ahead of time. We expected that to be this week, and it was earlier last month. He hoped that would grease the wheel for what happened today. So, we will wait to see him reunited with his family after that long 5.5 years. Erin?

BURNETT: His family, he was indefatigably advocated on his behalf again and again, I know, painfully for them talking, to all of us, to try to keep their brother's faith. His sister and his brother have spoken out so forcefully to make sure that the U.S. government couldn't try to forget it.

I do just want to confirm, we've gotten a detail, and we keep talking about that crucial airfield, the airport in Ankara, the capital of Turkey, where those planes are waiting. Turkey is confirming now that it played the mediator role in this prisoner swap, which is happening right now, right? We're still waiting for this actual perhaps cinematic transfer involving though people from seven different countries.

Certainly, we know Germany among them, the U.S. But this is the massive, think about this from the diplomatic point of view, massive coordination that has been required, and Turkey is saying that it played the mediator for all of this.

All right, so as we're watching those live images, one of those planes is Russian, we're going to keep watching that. We are going to take a brief break here and squeeze that in. We'll be right back.

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BURNETT: We are back with our breaking news of a major prisoner swap with Russia. It could be the largest prisoner swap since the end of the Cold War, a day that could potentially be a day that goes down in history, in these fraught final moments and hours before this happens.

You are looking at the airport in Ankara, Turkey, capital of Turkey. Turkish intelligence is confirming to us that they were the mediator of this anticipated prisoner swap, which we expect could happen at any point here. There are seven countries involved. Obviously this, we understand, involves Evan Gerskovich, Paul Whelan and other Americans who have been held in Russian penal colonies, in some cases, for many years.

As we are watching this live tarmac in Ankara, let's bring in Jill Dougherty.

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She is, of course, a longtime Moscow bureau chief, now adjunct professor for Georgetown University, and David Sanger, a national security expert, political analyst. Thank you both.

So, Jill, can I just say, all the years that you spent as Moscow bureau chief for us, your years looking at this, here we are in a moment that you could be seeing a Cold War-esque transfer of individual human beings in these next hours. What does a moment like this actually mean?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: There are so many aspects to this, Erin, I think, in terms -- we have the human, the historic, the spy versus spy exchanges, et cetera. But I was just thinking that if you look at who is being exchanged, and we still don't know every single name, but you look at the people whom Putin's government or regime has held, these are journalists, human rights people who've been held for a very long time.

Now, who are being returned to Russia? Assassins, money launderers, cybercrime people. And this, to me, is an illustration of how Russia actually works in the world right now. Vladimir Putin believes that he is at war with the west, and the tools that he's using right now are tools meant to undermine, cybercrime, money laundering, that type of thing, not to mention targeted assassination, and there are more and more of those.

So, in the long run, I think that's maybe not the main part of this, but I think it's significant just exactly who is being released. And I have to say, Americans are watching, and they should, the Americans who are being released, but you also have to think of the Russians who are outside of Russia, the opposition people who are being, we think, released, people like Vladimir Kara-Murza, who is a renowned historian and very well known in Russia. These are people who are really important for the Russia of the future, I would argue, as well.

BURNETT: You mentioned Vladimir Kara-Murza, and his wife, Evgenia, as you know, has spoken out on his behalf when he was sentenced and put into a penal colony, and that she was left with three young children.

And, David, I've spoken to her many times. The last time she spoke -- actually she didn't, that's the point of this, to her husband from the penal colony was in February. As I said, they have three children, and I just want to play what she told me in February, David, about that conversation with her husband in a penal colony who is very ill.

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EVGENIA KARA-MURZA, WIFE OF JOURNALIST VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA: Vladimir was allowed one 15-minute phone call with the kids, and that was the first phone call in over half a year. We have three kids. Divide 15 by 3. That means five minutes each. And I was literally standing there with a timer because I couldn't let any of our kids to speak for more than five minutes to their father. And, of course, yes, I didn't speak to him at all because I didn't want to take that time away from the kids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: David, it's moments like that where you realize that the humanity of what we are hoping to see in these next hours.

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: That's right. And, we have to start with a caution that we don't really know for sure yet who's on those airplanes or whether this is the swap that everybody's hoping will be. So, we have to be really cautious about what's going to unfold and what may not unfold. We don't know the scope yet of who's involved.

But, boy, you could see in that interview, Erin, just the human toll that Putin has taken here. As Jill was pointing out, you've got basically spies and criminals being exchanged for human rights workers, ordinary citizens, journalists who have been taken. We hope that those folks are all coming home.

The hard decision that President Biden had to make here is at what point do you give up the results of rule of law here in the west by going after cyber criminals and saboteurs and so forth in order to bring people home for obvious human -- very human reasons? And then, of course, what precedent does that set?

It also raises a really interesting question. Is this a one-off? We've had two previous exchanges during that, right? Or could there be, in the last days and months of the Biden administration, some kind of reopening to Putin?

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